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-   -   Gaelic translation, please (need answer fast-ish) (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=787891)

ThelmaLou 03-21-2016 01:16 PM

Gaelic translation, please (need answer fast-ish)
 
I'm doing a newsletter and noting the death of an Irish priest. This Gaelic sentence was included in his obituary on the website of the funeral home.

Ar deis Dê go raib a anam dílis.

Can someone translate this for me? I want to quote it, but I want to make sure I understand exactly what it says. (Also, my client is likely to ask me.)

Google translate says:
"On the possibility of a faithful soul rape"

That doesn't sound quite right...

ETA: Okay, I found this: "May his/her soul be on God's right hand - Ar dheas Dé go raibh a anam." Also, what about the his/her?

donkeyoatey 03-21-2016 01:56 PM

Googling the whole phrase has this in the first hit

Quote:

... if the loved one was a man or boy:
Ar dheis Dé go raibh a anam dílis

although the dílis could be omitted.

Note that the d in Dé is upper case ("God with a capital G") and the next word is go NOT do.

If the loved one was woman or girl:

Ar dheis Dé go raibh a hanam dílis

It is in some ways equivalent to "May he/she rest in peace"

Donnerwetter 03-21-2016 02:07 PM

I found a thread on a message board:

http://www.irishgaelictranslator.com...opic65565.html

Somebody inquired about almost the same quote, albeit referring to a deceased woman.

hibernicus 03-21-2016 02:09 PM

It means "May his faithful soul be at God's right side".

ThelmaLou 03-21-2016 02:38 PM

Thanks, all.

Dr. Drake 03-21-2016 03:19 PM

Can I just make a minor correction to the text in the OP: should be Dé, not Dê, and it should either be "go raibh" or, if you're going to use "go raib," you need a punctum delens over the b. That also goes for the first d in "ar deis": ar dheis in modern orthography, ar ḋeis in cló gaelach. donkeyoatey's spelling is correct for Roman type. (http://nualeargais.ie/gnag/ortho_files/leni.jpg; http://historicgraves.com/sites/defa...-SBST-0009.jpg

Chefguy 03-21-2016 04:24 PM

Okay, I read the title as "garlic translation". I think I spend too much time in Cafe Society.

For what it's worth, though:

Portuguese: alho
Spanish: ajo
French: ail
Italian: aglio

:D

Dr. Drake 03-21-2016 06:40 PM

Irish: cneamh, gáirleóg
Scottish Gaelic: creamh, gairleag
Wesh: craf, garlleg
Breton: kignen

(the C- words are more usually wild garlic, i.e. ramson)

Sage Rat 03-21-2016 07:48 PM

Japanese: ニンニク (ninniku)

Isilder 03-22-2016 02:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThelmaLou (Post 19197410)
I'm doing a newsletter and noting the death of an Irish priest. This Gaelic sentence was included in his obituary on the website of the funeral home.

Ar deis Dê go raib a anam dílis.

Can someone translate this for me?

Can't it be done word for word ? It is indo-european...


De cognate Deity ..

deis, right hand , cognate "dextra" ?

"dilis" faithful, cognate diligent ?

hanam . heart ? Or man ?

There was a reason latin was popular as a common language.

UDS 03-22-2016 03:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isilder (Post 19199209)
Can't it be done word for word ? It is indo-european...

De cognate Deity ..

Yup. From Latin, Deus.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isilder (Post 19199209)
deis, right hand , cognate "dextra" ?

Again, yup, though this time it's not from Latin. Rather, both the Latin and the Irish are from a common Indo-European root.

Curiously, the Irish and Latin works for "left hand" are unrelated.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isilder (Post 19199209)
"dilis" faithful, cognate diligent ?

Diligent is cognate, but distantly. Dílis doesn't suggest faithful in the sense of dutiful, assiduous, which is what diligent suggests to me. Rather it suggests faithful in the sense of loving, rejoicing in, taking constant delight in.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isilder (Post 19199209)
hanam . heart ? Or man ?

Neither. Cognate with Latin animus, soul or spirit.

and anam probably come straight from Latin, and arrive with Christianity. Dílis and deis are older.

ThelmaLou 03-22-2016 09:56 AM

Speaking of Latin, my client decided to go with Latin:

Requiescat in pace.

Northern Piper 03-22-2016 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UDS (Post 19199228)
Diligent is cognate, but distantly. Dílis doesn't suggest faithful in the sense of dutiful, assiduous, which is what diligent suggests to me. Rather it suggests faithful in the sense of loving, rejoicing in, taking constant delight in


That is a very Irish word. :)

Dr. Drake 03-22-2016 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UDS (Post 19199228)
Yup. From Latin, Deus.

No: cognate. They had gods before the Christians found them, you know. In Old Irish nominative, dative, and accusative are all día, genitive and vocative .

Chronos 03-23-2016 09:48 AM

What surprises me is that the Irish words for "man" and "woman" are very obviously related to the Latin ones. They're not particularly similar to the Germanic roots, which argues against it being a general Indo-European thing... but on the other hand, "man" and "woman" are quite fundamental concepts, not the sort of thing you'd expect to be loanwords.

Dr. Drake 03-23-2016 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chronos (Post 19202612)
What surprises me is that the Irish words for "man" and "woman" are very obviously related to the Latin ones. They're not particularly similar to the Germanic roots, which argues against it being a general Indo-European thing... but on the other hand, "man" and "woman" are quite fundamental concepts, not the sort of thing you'd expect to be loanwords.

fear (OI fer, gen. fir) is cognate with vir, yes; what are the "woman" words you are calling obvious? Bean (OI ben) is cognate with Greek γυνή (as in gyno- / gyne-) but I'm not aware of a Latin cognate.

hibernicus 03-23-2016 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chronos (Post 19202612)
What surprises me is that the Irish words for "man" and "woman" are very obviously related to the Latin ones. They're not particularly similar to the Germanic roots, which argues against it being a general Indo-European thing... but on the other hand, "man" and "woman" are quite fundamental concepts, not the sort of thing you'd expect to be loanwords.

Irish fear is cognate with Germanic wer as in werewolf and wereld (world). Irish bean is cognate with Germanic queen.

Lemur866 03-23-2016 03:19 PM

Right. "Man" is the odd one, where English lost the word for "male person" and replaced it with the word for "person". Old English wer meant a male, so you have werwolf, man-wolf, or wergild, man-price. So we have wo-man meaning a female person, but we lost wer-man, meaning a male person, instead we have man, originally meaning a person but now only meaning a male person.

Chronos 03-23-2016 03:47 PM

I'm certain I remember some Irish word that looked a lot like "mulier" (one of the Latin words for "woman"), but without actually knowing Irish, it's tough to track down what it was. The context was a pair of signs on restroom doors.

hibernicus 03-23-2016 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chronos (Post 19203751)
I'm certain I remember some Irish word that looked a lot like "mulier" (one of the Latin words for "woman"), but without actually knowing Irish, it's tough to track down what it was. The context was a pair of signs on restroom doors.

Usually fir (men) and mná (women), but you may have seen some other combination.

gigi 03-23-2016 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThelmaLou (Post 19197410)
Google translate says:
"On the possibility of a faithful soul rape"

Just morbidly curious how "May his faithful soul be at God's right side" could morph into the above.

Chronos 03-23-2016 08:00 PM

Quote:

Usually fir (men) and mná (women), but you may have seen some other combination.
That might have been it, as I didn't see the doors myself, only heard about them second-hand. I'm certain the women word started with m, but the rest could have been distorted in the telling.

Dr. Drake 03-23-2016 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gigi (Post 19203866)
Just morbidly curious how "May his faithful soul be at God's right side" could morph into the above.

You can't type a little dot into google translate. So raibh, which can be spelled raiḃ, is misread by the translator-machine as ráib, which is "rape," the plant that gives you canola oil.

UDS 03-23-2016 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hibernicus (Post 19203829)
Usually fir (men) and mná (women), but you may have seen some other combination.

Among the many stories that Peter Ustinov used to tell on chat shows was one about his confusion when faced with toilet doors labelled fir and mná. He could read many languages, but Irish was not one of them. Eventually he calculated that thw word beginning with 'f' was likely to be in some way related to femina, and the word beginning with 'm' to masculinus, and he made his choice accordingly. He got it wrong, of course.

Chronos 03-23-2016 11:10 PM

And in the story as I was told it, my mom was faced with the same conundrum, and her first thought was the same, but then she figured that "fir" looked an awful lot like "vir", and so got it right.

gigi 03-24-2016 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr. Drake (Post 19204560)
You can't type a little dot into google translate. So raibh, which can be spelled raiḃ, is misread by the translator-machine as ráib, which is "rape," the plant that gives you canola oil.

Thanks!

Northern Piper 03-27-2016 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr. Drake (Post 19204560)
You can't type a little dot into google translate. So raibh, which can be spelled raiḃ, is misread by the translator-machine as ráib, which is "rape," the plant that gives you canola oil.

Getting a bit off topic, but canola oil comes from the canola plant, which is a specially bred variant from natural rapeseed.

The canola plant has a significantly lower erucic acid concentration which makes it safe to use for human consumption. Because of this difference, it has a distinct name from natural rapeseed.

MacLir 03-28-2016 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Northern Piper (Post 19213663)
Getting a bit off topic, but canola oil comes from the canola plant, which is a specially bred variant from natural rapeseed.

The canola plant has a significantly lower erucic acid concentration which makes it safe to use for human consumption. Because of this difference, it has a distinct name from natural rapeseed.

Along the same topic, the erucic acid is needed as a supplement/ medicine in adrenoleukodystrophy (ALD). See "Lorenzo's Oil."

Leo Bloom 03-28-2016 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr. Drake (Post 19204560)
You can't type a little dot into google translate. So raibh, which can be spelled raiḃ, is misread by the translator-machine as ráib, which is "rape," the plant that gives you canola oil.

Which is interesting furthermore because the translator-machine, like the reader human, may confuse the "rape" of botany with the "rape" of sexual attack.

Nava 03-28-2016 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr. Drake (Post 19204560)
You can't type a little dot into google translate. So raibh, which can be spelled raiḃ, is misread by the translator-machine as ráib, which is "rape," the plant that gives you canola oil.

It's a database problem, not a typing problem. Copy-pasting the version with the dot, it is read as if it didn't have the dot - compare with copy-pasting ano and año and telling it the original language is Spanish. In this second example, someone has actually bothered indicate the two separate translations... but the definitions under the window are given for both words :smack: and spelled with an n :smack::smack::smack::smack::smack:



The translation I get into Spanish is violación... rape as in violation and not -seed, ayup.

Dr. Drake 03-28-2016 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nava (Post 19215147)
It's a database problem, not a typing problem. Copy-pasting the version with the dot, it is read as if it didn't have the dot - compare with copy-pasting ano and año and telling it the original language is Spanish. In this second example, someone has actually bothered indicate the two separate translations... but the definitions under the window are given for both words :smack: and spelled with an n :smack::smack::smack::smack::smack:



The translation I get into Spanish is violación... rape as in violation and not -seed, ayup.

Well, not exactly, because the dot-version is (essentially) an older orthography. For a database to code both versions, it would have to enter the entire dictionary twice, just in case someone uses the old-fashioned h-free system. And there are a lot of words that are one thing with the dots, but map onto another without, as in the raibh / ráib example (especially if you ignore the fada / acute accent).

By the way, if you can't make oil from rape, what was the original rape plant used for?

markn+ 03-28-2016 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr. Drake (Post 19215259)
By the way, if you can't make oil from rape, what was the original rape plant used for?

You can make oil from the non-canola varieties of rape, it's just not very palatable due to the glucosinolate, and not very safe to eat due to the erucic acid. According to wikipedia, it's mainly used for machinery lubrication.

--Mark

UDS 03-28-2016 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Northern Piper (Post 19213663)
Getting a bit off topic, but canola oil comes from the canola plant, which is a specially bred variant from natural rapeseed.

The canola plant has a significantly lower erucic acid concentration which makes it safe to use for human consumption. Because of this difference, it has a distinct name from natural rapeseed.

I don't think this is a consistent usage outside the US and Canada. The culinary product is often referred to as, and sometimes sold as, "rapeseed oil" in other countries. Here's a Guardian article and a BBC article, both referring to it as rapeseed oil.

Dr. Drake 03-28-2016 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UDS (Post 19216614)
I don't think this is a consistent usage outside the US and Canada. The culinary product is often referred to as, and sometimes sold as, "rapeseed oil" in other countries. Here's a Guardian article and a BBC article, both referring to it as rapeseed oil.

And my cousins, who are canola farmers in Saskatchewan, always used to refer to their crop as rape (1980s, when we were last on speaking terms...).

Nava 03-29-2016 05:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr. Drake (Post 19215259)
Well, not exactly, because the dot-version is (essentially) an older orthography. For a database to code both versions, it would have to enter the entire dictionary twice, just in case someone uses the old-fashioned h-free system. And there are a lot of words that are one thing with the dots, but map onto another without, as in the raibh / ráib example (especially if you ignore the fada / acute accent).

In the case of a general spelling change, it could also be possible to create a rule ("if someone enters ḃ, make it bh"), but doing that actually takes more work and computer power than having both spellings in the list.

Johanna 03-29-2016 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chronos (Post 19202612)
What surprises me is that the Irish words for "man" and "woman" are very obviously related to the Latin ones. They're not particularly similar to the Germanic roots, which argues against it being a general Indo-European thing... but on the other hand, "man" and "woman" are quite fundamental concepts, not the sort of thing you'd expect to be loanwords.

Italo-Celtic is a thing.
Dé / Deus
deis / dexter (compare Sanskrit dakshina: right hand, south)
dilig / delecto, delicia (delight)
Ever notice how cara means the same thing in Gaelic and Latin? Once my next door neighbor was a woman from Scotland named Cara. My first thought was how'd she get an Italian name? Second thought: oh, right: anam cara. Pure Italo-Celtic.
What is it with the 6/8 meter shared by Irish jig and Italian tarantella, anyway?

Funny how mná is an anagram of man, but it's just one of those coincidences. Mná is the plural of bean*
*pronounced "ban" but with a slender b. Although /b/ and /p/ in Irish seem to me to be the letters least affected by slenderization, so would it make less difference in this instance?

Bean is from Proto-Indo-European *gwen- 'woman' which is also the source of Greek gyne, Persian zan as in "zenana", Swedish kvinna, English queen.

Dr. Drake 03-29-2016 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johanna
anam cara

Punctum delens strikes again:

anam ċara (/anam xara/) (what popularized the phrase)
or
anam chara (/anam xara/)

English speakers* seem determined to project their lack of diacritics onto other languages.

*not you: this error is extremely widespread, and this phrase is almost always written cara in English contexts, rather than ċara or chara.

Johanna 04-01-2016 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr. Drake (Post 19218915)
Punctum delens strikes again:

anam ċara (/anam xara/) (what popularized the phrase)
or
anam chara (/anam xara/)

English speakers* seem determined to project their lack of diacritics onto other languages.

*not you: this error is extremely widespread, and this phrase is almost always written cara in English contexts, rather than ċara or chara.

Thanks for the correction! The way to spot those when unmarked would be to learn all the lenition rules, which I haven't yet done. On behalf of many languages, I share your feelings about the erasure of diacritics.

Broomstick 09-19-2016 05:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chronos (Post 19202612)
What surprises me is that the Irish words for "man" and "woman" are very obviously related to the Latin ones.

Er... why is that surprising? Irish and Latin are sister languages, descended from a common ancestor.

Do you find it surprising when a particular Spanish, French, and Italian word are all "very obviously" related?

Monty 09-19-2016 07:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isilder (Post 19199209)
Can't it be done word for word ? It is indo-european...

Just because two languages are in the same language family does not mean that one can make a "word for word" translation between the two languages.

JKellyMap 09-19-2016 07:21 AM

Responding to an earlier post: It's not unusual for the word for "left" (direction) to be replaced in a language. It's called taboo replacement -- lefties being often seen as weird, even sinister.

Broomstick 09-19-2016 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monty (Post 19637897)
Just because two languages are in the same language family does not mean that one can make a "word for word" translation between the two languages.

Especially between languages with significantly different grammar and structure like English and Irish.

The English sentence:

"The girl is walking"

Word for word the same concept translated from Irish:

"Is the girl at walking"

In Irish the word order is Verb-Subject-Object as opposed to English which is Subject-Verb-Object. As just one example. Unlike English, you don't invert the verb and subject order to ask a question. Also, while English will change the ending of words Irish often changes the beginning of words. Another outstanding oddity: Irish has neither "yes" nor "no" as discreet words. If someone asks you "are you doing something?" you have to answer either "I am" or "I am not", you can't just say yes or no because neither of those words exist in Irish (though Irish speakers might borrow them a lot these days - they might wind up as language immigrants).

That's just the tip of the iceberg.

Which is why word-for-word translations are often confusing, nonsensical, or useless.

Colibri 09-19-2016 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JKellyMap (Post 19637907)
It's called taboo replacement -- lefties being often seen as weird, even sinister.

I see what you did there.;)

Interestingly, the Spanish words for "left," izquierdo, and "left-handed," zurdo appear to be derived or related from the Basque terms rather than Indo-European.

JKellyMap 09-19-2016 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Colibri (Post 19638238)
I see what you did there.;)

Interestingly, the Spanish words for "left," izquierdo, and "left-handed," zurdo appear to be derived or related from the Basque terms rather than Indo-European.

Exactly. Perfect example.

Apparently, the Germanic words for "bear" (including English) are another example -- "the brown one [whose real name must not be spoken, lest it eat me]."


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