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-   -   Do 'nice guys' ever find women who will accept them? (https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=793789)

GlowingDarkness 05-23-2016 04:06 PM

Do 'nice guys' ever find women who will accept them?
 
Just to clarify, I'm not a nice guy and neither is this about me. This has been interesting to me since I've been seeing it online on YouTube and other sites.

Apparently a good number of women don't like "nice guys" because lets be honest. Most of them whether it be due to biology or social conditioning are attracted to males who are confident. A sense of protection is what they go for. Even if it is completely false. Nice guys are often mistaken for being shy and unable to defend women from threats (Note: This isn't my opinion. It's just what I've read from evolutionary psychology)

But then I think that I as an open minded and deep thinker judging people by evolution is silly. Sure a lot of women might go for the traditional role, but people are individuals. And there are all types of women in the world who would date and marry nice guys. Hope is not lost for them

Thoughts?

Velocity 05-23-2016 04:19 PM

Well, my dad is pretty much the embodiment of a nice guy, and he found my mom who accepts him. And I know a lot of acquaintances - nice guy men - who have girlfriends or are married.

So, anecdotally, yes, it can happen.

Anaamika 05-23-2016 04:24 PM

I think my guy is a pretty nice guy, though not a 'nice guy'. I mean, he's not a misogynist, like so many 'nice guys' are if you just scratch the surface a little, but he's not really a fighter, he's respectful and courteous and a gentleman, he spoils me and pretty much lets me have my way in most things because he loves me.

We both bring our strengths to the table. When he feels strongly about something, really strongly, then we generally do it his way. He is fiscally savvy and very sensible, but if there's fighting to be done (not physical, that's childish anyway) I am usually the one to do it. Like if I need to return something, or complain about customer service. He is extremely reserved and I am the social one.

Small Hen 05-23-2016 04:30 PM

Sure. Almost all people end up with someone, at least for a while.

But from your description of nice guy, the quotation marks are not needed. You're asking if kind, soft-spoken men ever end up with women. All the time. "Nice guy" implies the kind of person who does all sorts of things for a woman in the hopes that he'll punch in the proper sequence to make her legs spring open. They're ironic quotes, there's nothing nice about it.

But even most "nice guys" end up with women too. Some grow out of it, and some find a women who's willing to be treated like a sex vending machine in hopes of getting a husband.

I'm generalizing, I know.

CCitizen 05-23-2016 04:34 PM

Most men who have money can find a woman. Even most antifeminist men who have money will find a woman. PUAs are generally antifeminist and yet they find many women.

I am not looking for female friends until I will have a salary like $50K/year -- which I will never have.

CalMeacham 05-23-2016 04:38 PM

Different people mean different things by "Nice Guy". To some, it's become a put-down.


But I'm a "Nice Guy" by the definitions we used to use, and I've been married to Pepper Mill for 23 years now, so I guess it can happen.

Fuzzy Dunlop 05-23-2016 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CalMeacham (Post 19352025)
Different people mean different things by "Nice Guy". To some, it's become a put-down.


But I'm a "Nice Guy" by the definitions we used to use, and I've been married to Pepper Mill for 23 years now, so I guess it can happen.

There's actually a huge difference between a nice guy and a "Nice Guy". If you're actually just a nice person, then your chances of finding a life long partner is very high.

Self described "Nice Guys" are the ones other people dislike, because they're not really nice people. They're whiny and feel entitled to have sex with any woman they treat in a way they consider nice.

Understandably, it may be difficult to determine if you're a nice person of a "Nice Guy". "Nice Guys" tend to have a lot of anger toward women, but in my experience it's very rare they have any awareness of how entitled and unpleasant they appear to others. But my point is, I don't believe it's really a simple matter of people having different definitions, so much as some people sorely lacking self awareness.

At any rate, both types definitely find women that will accept them. Being a thoughtful conscientious person is one of the best traits anyone can bring to a relationship, so of course bona fide nice guys get women. On the other hand, plenty of women wind up with entitled assholes, so tons of "Nice Guys" get women too. They may be the butt of a lot of jokes, but it's silly to think they never wind up in relationships.

pidgeon92 05-23-2016 05:08 PM

My husband is a nice guy. He's polite and respectful of others; kind and decent in a way I've found few people I've met to be.

Emiliana 05-23-2016 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GlowingDarkness (Post 19351923)
Just to clarify, I'm not a nice guy and neither is this about me. This has been interesting to me since I've been seeing it online on YouTube and other sites.

Apparently a good number of women don't like "nice guys" because lets be honest. Most of them whether it be due to biology or social conditioning are attracted to males who are confident. A sense of protection is what they go for. Even if it is completely false. Nice guys are often mistaken for being shy and unable to defend women from threats (Note: This isn't my opinion. It's just what I've read from evolutionary psychology)

But then I think that I as an open minded and deep thinker judging people by evolution is silly. Sure a lot of women might go for the traditional role, but people are individuals. And there are all types of women in the world who would date and marry nice guys. Hope is not lost for them

Thoughts?

Yes. Nice guys don't get the sex they are owed because women go for bad boys. I've seen it on the internet too.

drachillix 05-23-2016 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fuzzy Dunlop (Post 19352077)
Self described "Nice Guys" are the ones other people dislike, because they're not really nice people. They're whiny and feel entitled to have sex with any woman they treat in a way they consider nice.

IME as you imply, they often do not realize it. Many people seem to imply that "they are just being nice to get sex" when its more a dysfunctional perception of what women want. People call them entitled when more often than not they are confused. People are attributing to malice what is more accurately ignorance. Plenty of "Nice Guys" really do want relationships.

They are just going through a checklist like this:
I am clean and nicely dressed
I give her flowers
Take her nice places
Tell her how wonderful she is

She doesn't want to go out with me anymore, why have advances been rebuffed, why does she not want a relationship with me?

The problem is that they are looking at the lack of a relationship as a problem and are seeking the parts and tools to solve the problem.

They see other guys doing these things and don't realize that there is more to it because the details are not something we share with the world its how you relate when you are alone with them that makes the difference.

Its nowhere near as simple, and they dont realize that the checklist (clean, flowers, dinner, etc_ is just the admission to the game. The rest is how you play.

I blame TV for making it look too easy.

astro 05-23-2016 05:34 PM

If the "nice guy" has spine and common sense sure, no problem, but too often being a self professed "nice guy" is code for

"I bought you dinner and drinks.... so please, please fuck me"
"I'll do anything you want for some affection"
"I'm socially clueless and will probably embarrass you"

Any man who actually says (out loud) "I'm a nice guy" to a woman he is considering is either an incipient sociopath on the make or someone excusing their social awkwardness by being overly solicitous and fawning. Women desiring long(er) term relationships normally want caring and competence in one package. A man who will not set limits is a man who not be respected.

Having said this there is a point - Why You’re Not Married - where women may re-consider their options, but that's on a case by case basis. If you are not completely socially hapless and have decent hygiene and are not hideous after the age of 30 or so single women are often a lot more flexible in their parameters.

P-man 05-23-2016 05:47 PM

I'm soft spoken, have trouble picking up signals, and have always tried to treat all people with respect. It took a while, but I found someone (or she found me) and we've been married for almost 20 years.

monstro 05-23-2016 05:53 PM

A key bit of advice to the OP and anyone else who is open to receiving it:

Guys who are truly kind and respectful don't have to say they are nice. "Niceness" should just go without saying. Telling a woman that you're a nice guy is basically telling her she'd be wise to stay away from you. That's how widespread the Nice Guy meme is. So please come up with a different way of describing yourself.

I don't know why guys seems to think "niceness" is unattractive. 'Cuz it is not. But like any other trait, it is insufficient all by itself. I don't know why this is so puzzling to people.

astro 05-23-2016 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by monstro (Post 19352233)
A key bit of advice to the OP and anyone else who is open to receiving it:

Guys who are truly kind and respectful don't have to say they are nice. "Niceness" should just go without saying. Telling a woman that you're a nice guy is basically telling her she'd be wise to stay away from you. That's how widespread the Nice Guy meme is. So please come up with a different way of describing yourself.

I don't know why guys seems to think "niceness" is unattractive. 'Cuz it is not. But like any other trait, it is insufficient all by itself. I don't know why this is so puzzling to people.

It's puzzling because that other guy gets all the action he can handle and I don't see what's so great about him other than his sense of humor, confidence, muscles, financial success, vagina pleasing penis, and being a snappy dresser.

panache45 05-23-2016 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GlowingDarkness (Post 19351923)
. . . I as an open minded and deep thinker . . .

:D

Spice Weasel 05-23-2016 08:08 PM

Well, you're starting off on the right foot by questioning what you've read of evolutionary psychology, because evolutionary psychology is, at least based on the ''research'' I've seen, shit science. A favorite kind of shit science misogynists like to use to prop up their poor treatment of women.

Anyhow, define 'protection.' There is nowhere I feel safer than in my husband's arms. He is 5'7'' and 140 lbs. I have a wedding photo of his then teenage sister sweeping him into her arms and carrying him and spinning him along the ground in celebration. Maybe not your stereotypical definition of masculine, but he's a compassionate badass. Gentle, kind to everyone, almost always reasonable, so calm in a crisis.

The day he first kissed me, i was 19 and I had a panic attack. i had severe PTSD at the time. We had just hooked up and I broke up with him, sobbing, ''Sorry, I can't do this.'' He wasn't angry. I swear to fucking God, he drove an hour and half to see me, bought me flowers, everything, and here I am rejecting him and sobbing like a child. He pulled me into his arms and said, ''It's okay. I just want what's best for you.'' He stayed with me the entire night, expecting nothing.

It wasn't a one-shot miracle moment, either. That's his standard MO at all times. Compassion, understanding, acceptance. Compassion, understanding, acceptance. Over and over. Never fails.

I'm sure some ladies dig the assholes. As for me, I'll keep my nice guy.

Don't Panic 05-23-2016 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by monstro (Post 19352233)
So please come up with a different way of describing yourself.

Hey, cut us nice guys some slack. "Creepy, potentially rapey, socially inept, not to mention smelly" just doesn't have the same ring to it.

Nava 05-23-2016 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fuzzy Dunlop (Post 19352077)
Self described "Nice Guys" are the ones other people dislike, because they're not really nice people. They're whiny and feel entitled to have sex with any woman they treat in a way they consider nice.

And one has already posted to this thread. (I'm not naming names! Ow!)




Most of the guys I know are pretty nice, and most are partnered. One of my cousins used to work as a bouncer; he's large enough that even without "puffing up" most dudes would take a look and suddenly sober up*. He may have a mean bone someplace, but I've known him since he was born and I've never seen him be anything but kind. Even as a little kid, being mistreated by another of a similar size would be more likely to leave him confused than trigger a tantrum. He's the kind of guy who'll be very polite while immobilizing an asshole and taking him outside. He's also married, with a daughter.

* Anecdote told at his wedding by a short, small, built former coworker "we'd tell troublemakers 'dude, do I need to call Mike? he does karate' and they'd blow raspberries and we'd call Mike and they'd go 'aaaaaaaah!' and suddenly remember their manners, and then later they'd ask us 'and he does karate?' 'yeap' 'what does he need karate for?'"

Ambivalid 05-23-2016 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nava (Post 19352656)
And one has already posted to this thread. (I'm not naming names! Ow!)

Um, the one who admitted to being a "Nice Guy", maybe? :p

Nava 05-23-2016 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ambivalid (Post 19352667)
Um, the one who admitted to being a "Nice Guy", maybe? :p

No, the one who thinks that the only thing women may want from him is his money.

Ambivalid 05-23-2016 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nava (Post 19352680)
No, the one who indicated that he doesn't think he can find a woman unless he pays for her.

Ah, ok. But he's not a "Nice Guy". He's a cyborg. Its even in his name. :D

CCitizen 05-23-2016 09:08 PM

Again, they are discussing me. As a rule, most men earning >30K/y can find a girlfriend. Most men earning >60K/y can find a girlfriend even if they are very antifeminist.

I am not a "nice guy" -- I am not looking for female friends.

Robot Arm 05-23-2016 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ambivalid (Post 19352690)
Ah, ok. But he's not a "Nice Guy". He's a cyborg. Its even in his name. :D

Oh sure, blame the cyborgs.

Ambivalid 05-23-2016 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CCitizen (Post 19352697)
Again, they are discussing me. As a rule, most men earning >30K/y can find a girlfriend. Most men earning >60K/y can find a girlfriend even if they are very antifeminist.

This is totally absurd. Totally and utterly.

CCitizen 05-23-2016 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ambivalid (Post 19352719)
This is totally absurd. Totally and utterly.

Most prominent anti feminists do have wives or long time partners.

Spice Weasel 05-23-2016 09:22 PM

I mean, can we state the obvious here? Nice guys often end up with nice girls. I don't mean ''nice'' in the euphemistic way but in the sense that you are compassionate, considerate of others, and yeah maybe a little shy.

That seems to hold pretty consistently across the board for all the fantastic men I know. There are very few couples I'm friends with where one is an obvious dick. People tend to attract people like themselves.

So sure, if your goal in life is to get a girlfriend who values money above all else, knock yourself out becoming rich and powerful. For some people that's not even a bad thing, because they will find someone who embraces the thing they value most -- money -- and it can be a good match. Just recognize a lot of people value a lot of different things other than money and if you truly and openly embrace your own values you will probably attract a partner who values those same things.

Ambivalid 05-23-2016 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CCitizen (Post 19352721)
Most prominent anti feminists do have wives or long time partners.

Oops. I feel kinda silly. I misread that post. Apologies.

Grrr! 05-23-2016 09:24 PM

I made it very clear to my GF in the beginning stages of our relationship: If the shit ever goes down, don't expect me to go full on Chuck Norris defending your honor. I will grab you hand and we're running as fast as we can.

We laughed, and she still manages to keep me around. So I assume she accepts me in my supposed "Unmanlyness".

CCitizen 05-23-2016 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ambivalid (Post 19352730)
Oops. I feel kinda silly. I misread that post. Apologies.

Everything is OK. Not having money means not having many types of relationships -- I had recently quit my relationship with my therapist. In many ways, romantic partnership as well as therapeutic partnership does have financial side.

RealityChuck 05-23-2016 09:26 PM

All the women I've had relationships though I was a nice guy. They liked that I treated them like human beings, and took an interest in what they had to say.

octopus 05-23-2016 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CCitizen (Post 19352737)
Everything is OK. Not having money means not having many types of relationships -- I had recently quit my relationship with my therapist. In many ways, romantic partnership as well as therapeutic partnership does have financial side.

Unless you are living out of a shopping buggy finances aren't keeping you single.

I've not had trouble even when I was dirt poor. Flexing the pecs make them swoon. And taking at least a weekly shower.

Spice Weasel 05-23-2016 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by octopus (Post 19352892)
Unless you are living out of a shopping buggy finances aren't keeping you single.

I've not had trouble even when I was dirt poor. Flexing the pecs make them swoon. And taking at least a weekly shower.

Um. I must commend you on your user name, Sir. I am a fan of cephalopods.

CCitizen 05-23-2016 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by octopus (Post 19352892)
Unless you are living out of a shopping buggy finances aren't keeping you single.

I guess dating for Autistic people is another topic. I do not date. I do not drive.

HoneyBadgerDC 05-23-2016 10:37 PM

One of my red flags when dating is if a woman doesn't seem to value a man being nice. I also expect a woman to be nice. I have no problem sticking up for a woman in any situation but I have no respect for women who don't try to avoid these situations.

Count Blucher 05-23-2016 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GlowingDarkness (Post 19351923)
Thoughts?

You stay down now, Mr. Swedish Champion Sorry, wrong thread.

Nope. This subject is about played-out.

Velocity 05-23-2016 10:58 PM

From my observation, there's also a religious demographic: Christian women are significantly more likely than non-Christian women to go for nice guys. In fact this may be true of religious vs. non-religious women in general.

Fuzzy Dunlop 05-23-2016 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by monstro (Post 19352233)
I don't know why guys seems to think "niceness" is unattractive. 'Cuz it is not. But like any other trait, it is insufficient all by itself. I don't know why this is so puzzling to people.

I think it's partially a stage of life issue. "Nice guy" syndrome is especially prevalent among teenage to early twenties men. "Nice guys" go hand in hand with the "girls only date JERKS because they're stupid" idea. The thing is, they're not completely wrong.

A lot of young people of both sexes are pretty terrible at picking good partners. What "Nice guys" really fail at is turning the lens on themselves. I've never met a "nice guy" willing to seriously consider that they're not pursing the type of women who appreciates kind, thoughtful partners. In fact, "Nice guys" are usually super desperate and open to pursuing any women who'll pay them any attention. Yet, somehow it's only women don't appreciate traits like niceness.

Pantastic 05-24-2016 12:59 AM

There isn't any contradiction between actually being nice and being confident, and actually being nice gives women a sense of protection. The whole 'nice guys' complaint has a whole lot of fallacies behind it. If a guy is actually nice and not attracting women, he's probably not making a real effort (most of the 'assholes' who score a lot also get rejected more times in a month than the nice guy does in his life) or is socializing badly in some way. Neither of those are actually a direct result of being 'nice'. And a huge chunk of the people who call themselves 'nice guys' are actually not nice at all, and view women as a sort of video game where you keep putting in niceness tokens until you win a sexing (or loving or whatever).

You should read this page to get a good deconstruction of the nice guy fallacies: http://www.heartless-bitches.com/ran...eguys/ng.shtml

Evolutionary psychology is a great steaming pile of crap, it's just people tossing out pseudo-scientific babble to support their existing prejudices. I've never seen the kind of evo-psych that supports 'nice guy' complaints supported by any real research or critical thinking. The most common failure of critical thinking is taking some 20th century social conventions and 'proving' that they must have come from evolution because reasons, and never addressing why people didn't behave that way through the rest of recorded history. And Youtube comments are a swirling cesspool of broken people, it's a terrible place to get ideas from.

Dr. Strangelove 05-24-2016 01:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by monstro (Post 19352233)
I don't know why guys seems to think "niceness" is unattractive. 'Cuz it is not. But like any other trait, it is insufficient all by itself. I don't know why this is so puzzling to people.

Could be that "nice guys" are differentially attracted to damaged women--i.e., ones in a series of dysfunctional relationships. The nice guys think they can swoop in and fix things just by being nice, which of course they can't. So almost by definition, the women they are attracted to won't return the affections, because the women are attracted to abusive men.

Nava 05-24-2016 03:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr. Strangelove (Post 19353162)
Could be that "nice guys" are differentially attracted to damaged women--i.e., ones in a series of dysfunctional relationships.

Nah, they're attracted to all kinds except the kind that's stronger than them in any fashion.

Dr. Strangelove 05-24-2016 03:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nava (Post 19353274)
Nah, they're attracted to all kinds except the kind that's stronger than them in any fashion.

Maybe, but I thought a key part of the stereotype was that they're always the shoulder to cry on, etc. They have to put those "nice guy" skills to use in some fashion. Otherwise, you're just talking about general-purpose creeps.

txst16 05-24-2016 04:29 AM

A better question...
 
If the sense of protection is solely a females basis on choice of mate then consider these thoughts ...
1. Has she considered the alternative?... dogs are great security.
2. Is she looking for a GOOD guy or a NICE guy or a STRONG guy?... there is a definite difference in each individually.
3. The males aware of this evolutionary truth are better searching for the female needing protection?
4. If she is looking for protection then how NICE a guy is matters none; thats a sacrifice one makes in this particular situation... most likely she will go for the ass hole who is just as likely the wimp as a nice guy having been passed by.
Even so, an ass hole that turns out to be a wuss was most likely chosen over a nice guy fit to serve these protection needs (this is shown by Hollywood in decades of romantic films).
5. Many NICE people are just as mean at times as those who are more often so.

If the intention here is to seek out a female mate its best to be the person you want to be or the person they want you to be. Ask yourself what life you want and what significance does this choice place over any/all life goals... Go from there.

Velocity 05-24-2016 04:32 AM

Help me understand something: If evolutionary physiology is real, why isn't evolutionary psychology? Do only bodies evolve but not brains/minds?

Don't Panic 05-24-2016 05:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nava (Post 19353274)
Nah, they're attracted to all kinds except the kind that's stronger than them in any fashion.

Heck, scratch even that qualification, in my experience. They're simply attracted to all kinds, same as everyone else.

The frankly preposterous notion that there must be something "wrong" or "damaged" about the girls/women these guys are attracted to is basically just blaming the victim. Which, apparently, is always tempting, but doesn't have anything to do with reality.

Spice Weasel 05-24-2016 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Velocity (Post 19353304)
Help me understand something: If evolutionary physiology is real, why isn't evolutionary psychology? Do only bodies evolve but not brains/minds?

The problem with evo psych is the poor methodology. It usually starts with some observation about modern-day human behavior that is factual, for example, women tend to prefer the color pink. It then attributes an evolutionary cause to that observation to the absolute exclusion of all other possible factors. Women like pink because we once played the gatherer role and needed to attend to reddish colors in nature (see: berries.)

Let us completely ignore the fact that pink used to be associated with boys more than girls as recently as the 1800s. Let us completely negate any possible explanation for this observation other than an evolutionary one. Let us then conclude that any existing inequalities between genders exist because it's natural and good and anybody who wants to correct them is just railing against the inevitable essential differences between men and women.

That is why it's shit science.

DrFidelius 05-24-2016 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Velocity (Post 19353304)
Help me understand something: If evolutionary physiology is real, why isn't evolutionary psychology? Do only bodies evolve but not brains/minds?

Evolutionary psychology is (at this time and in the usage in consideration in this thread and similar discussions) is a series of Just-So stories concocted to explain a current (real or perceived) social situation.

It is self-serving bullshit.

Pantastic 05-24-2016 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Velocity (Post 19353304)
Help me understand something: If evolutionary physiology is real, why isn't evolutionary psychology? Do only bodies evolve but not brains/minds?

There is some real science behind the evolution of human minds, and some serious scientific investigation into how much of modern human behavior can be traced back to evolutionary factors, but the "evolutionary psychology" that you see in youtube comments, from 'nice guys', or from PUAs/MRAs is sorely lacking things like controlled studies and peer reviewed papers. On examination, it ends up being just some guy making up a story to justify something that he thinks is true, then other people quoting him like it's respectable, or someone going to a real research paper and treating as complete proven fact an out of context conclusion or aside that's bounded by many conditional statements in the original.

Like I said before, one thing that is very telling is that evopsych explanations often assert that a 20th century American behavior is a result of evolutionary pressure in pre-history, but utterly fail to explain why other times and other cultural backgrounds produce different behavior.

DigitalC 05-24-2016 10:32 AM

"Nice" is what you say about someone (or yourself) when you have absolutely nothing else to say. It is the equivalent of looking at a car and going "well, at least it runs". You can be nice and have a girlfriend or wife, as long as it isn't the only thing you have going for you.

Shodan 05-24-2016 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martian Bigfoot (Post 19353319)
Heck, scratch even that qualification, in my experience. They're simply attracted to all kinds, same as everyone else.

I think your experience is correct, and that is part of the reason why Nice Guys don't get anywhere.

They aren't attracted to any particular woman - they are desperate for anyone. And desperation is one of the least attractive qualities imaginable to women (or men, I suppose).

"Nobody else will go out with me, so I asked you" is NOT calculated to melt the feminine heart.

Regards,
Shodan

Velocity 05-24-2016 02:41 PM

We need clarification: Are nice guys getting successful because of being nice, or in spite of being nice?


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