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-   -   Biggest athlete . . . biggest fall from grace (https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=882188)

russian heel 09-17-2019 12:26 AM

Biggest athlete . . . biggest fall from grace
 
Well, the most obvious answer (arguably?) would be OJ Simpson. Looking for highly regarded athletes, not one hit wonders or mediocre jocks who fell through the cracks anyway.

Other nominees:

Lenny Dykstra--- former near .400 baseball hitter now a former jailbird with no teeth reduced to fighting boxing matches with Youtube stars

Denny McClain---30 win pitcher in late 60s, ended up in jail

Pete Rose, for I think obvious reasons.

What other sports besides football and baseball? Diego Maradona despite coaching Argentina? WWE champion Chris Benoit?

Gotta be some boxers in the mix. Mike Tyson? Hasn't he been rehabilitated by now? Connor MacGregor reached that status yet?

I know I missed a lot of names. Point them out!

wedgehed 09-17-2019 01:01 AM

Shoeless Joe Jackson.

Joey P 09-17-2019 01:08 AM

I don't follow baseball (or, really, any sports), but over the years I've had roommates that did so I'd pick a little up here and there.
I feel like back when I was finishing college (around 01-02), I remember hearing a lot about Sammy Sosa and Mark McGuire battling it out for the most home runs (ever?). Right around the same time there was talk of drugs/PEDs and I haven't heard much about either since then.

needscoffee 09-17-2019 01:28 AM

Lance Armstrong

Little Nemo 09-17-2019 01:32 AM

Aaron Hernandez may not be at the top of the list but he certainly belongs in the discussion.

Beckdawrek 09-17-2019 01:35 AM

Tonya Harding

Novelty Bobble 09-17-2019 04:47 AM

I think it has to be a world name for it to count so OJ wasn't really widely known as anything other than an actor outside of the USA before his arrest and trial.

Mike Tyson? well he wasn't really though of as an inspirational character before his rape conviction, was his behaviour there really so surprising?
Maradona was a great player and a massive world-wide name but to fall from grace you have to have a earned a degree of it in the first place and he was always a stumpy little cheat.

Lance Armstrong fits the bill, widely feted, widely admired, ground breaking achievements that were an inspiration to many. Then it turns out that it was all a charade and he cheated his way to the top and fucked everyone over on the way. He has to be the top choice. He is now synonymous with "Drug Cheat".

For those more cricketly-minded there is the sad tale of Hansie Cronje . Superb player, great captain, clean as a whistle. Right up until the point he was caught in a match-fixing scandal. That was a huge shock and his death in a plane crash shortly after cemented the tragedy.

Teuton 09-17-2019 07:23 AM

As well as Hansie, cricket also has Chris Lewis, who played for England before doing 6 years for cocaine smuggling after his retirement.

Telemark 09-17-2019 08:30 AM

Tiger Woods is the first one to come to mind, although he's rehabbed his image and game recently.

Atamasama 09-17-2019 09:15 AM

Owen Hart, the pro wrestler?

Or does a literal fall not count?

needscoffee 09-17-2019 09:42 AM

Oscar Pistorius isn't doing so well nowadays...

Barkis is Willin' 09-17-2019 10:26 AM

Thinking of NBA guys...Dennis Rodman? Can't think of anyone who's crashed and burned even close to as hard as OJ.

RickJay 09-17-2019 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by russian heel (Post 21865046)
Well, the most obvious answer (arguably?) would be OJ Simpson. Looking for highly regarded athletes, not one hit wonders or mediocre jocks who fell through the cracks anyway.

Other nominees:

Lenny Dykstra--- former near .400 baseball hitter now a former jailbird with no teeth reduced to fighting boxing matches with Youtube stars

Just to nitpick, when did Lenny get near .400? His career high was .325.

Lenny was a hell of a player who had a disastrous fall but I'd have to agree your other pick of Pete Rose is really hard to top. Rose now is largely a sad story to such an extent that it's hard to recall how iconic a figure he once was. Rose was THE example held up to kids of how to play baseball. He was the embodiment of grit. He personally changed the way rookies were treated. The guy's nickname included the word "hustle." Rose was not only a legendary player but held up as all that was right about being a baseball player. He threw it all away.

Alessan 09-17-2019 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by needscoffee (Post 21865096)
Lance Armstrong

This. Everyone else mentioned, no matter what else they did, they still have their achievements. Even O.J. was once a very good athlete. Armstrong doesn't even have that.

Atamasama 09-17-2019 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barkis is Willin' (Post 21865567)
Thinking of NBA guys...Dennis Rodman? Can't think of anyone who's crashed and burned even close to as hard as OJ.

No, heís still a big deal, heís even best friends with Kim Jong-un...

Oh, thatís kind of what you meant, huh?

Atamasama 09-17-2019 10:53 AM

Thinking of examples, does Jim Brown count? I’m not sure how great his “fall” was, but he is considered one of the best football players of all time (if not the best). He left football because he wanted to be an actor, and his acting career was interfering with his football. As an actor he was considered “serviceable” at best, and didn’t have much success, likely banking off his athletic fame to get parts.

But what I consider his “fall” is his repeated problems with the law, all of a violent nature, which include...

- Arrested for assault and battery against an 18-year-old he allegedly fathered a child with (though he denied paternity). He was acquitted of the charges.

- Assault with intent to commit murder, he wasn’t charged because the victim refused to cooperate with prosecution. He was also fined for striking a deputy sheriff during the investigation.

- Assault and battery from a road rage incident, though he was again acquitted.

- Charged with raping a 33-year-old woman, though charges were dropped.

- Spent one day in jail and had two years of probation after beating and choking his golfing partner.

- Arrested for assaulting his girlfriend, though she refused to press charges.

- Arrested and charged with making terrorist threats against his wife, and later found guilty of vandalizing her car after he smashed it with a shovel. Sentenced to probation, counseling, community service, and a fine. He ignored the terms of the sentence so was then sentenced to 6 months in jail, but served half of it.

Most of his charges were dropped or he was acquitted, true, but OJ was the original example in the OP and don’t forget that he was also acquitted. Brown being considered possibly the best football player ever, then having such a tumultuous life following football, that’s really a shame.

Dead Cat 09-17-2019 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alessan (Post 21865576)
This. Everyone else mentioned, no matter what else they did, they still have their achievements. Even O.J. was once a very good athlete. Armstrong doesn't even have that.

Well, there is the argument that many of Armstrong's competitors were probably using PEDs at the same time, so he may well still have been a great athlete if everyone were clean (especially if he had some genuine TUEs for his post-cancer treatment). Plus, he didn't straight up murder someone (yes, I know OJ was acquitted, but does anyone really think he didn't do it?). So I'd put OJ 'ahead' of Lance here.

However, as already mentioned, OJ wasn't known worldwide for his sporting accomplishments like Lance was, and had Lance been clean he was higher up the ranking of all-time greats in his sport. So if we're giving equal weighting to "Biggest athlete", I'd still give it to Lance on balance. Pete Rose is certainly in contention on the same basis, as are Jim Brown and Tiger Woods. My pick is the latter, I think - undisputed top-2 all-time in his sport, a sport with more global reach than gridiron, baseball, or cycling, squeaky clean image, millions of dollars in sponsorships, and loses it all in a matter of weeks involving serial infidelity, drug use, and crime (the DUI). Yes, he is fairly well rehabilitated by now, but in terms of "Biggest athlete, biggest fall from grace" I'd say he's the one. Maybe I'm weighting the first part too highly, plus recency bias, so I'm not going to say that's the final answer, just making a case.

running coach 09-17-2019 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dead Cat (Post 21865723)
Well, there is the argument that many of Armstrong's competitors were probably using PEDs at the same time, so he may well still have been a great athlete if everyone were clean (especially if he had some genuine TUEs for his post-cancer treatment). Plus, he didn't straight up murder someone (yes, I know OJ was acquitted, but does anyone really think he didn't do it?). So I'd put OJ 'ahead' of Lance here.

No probably. The standard procedure when a Tour winner is found to be doping is to advance the 2nd place finisher to winner. So many of the 2nd, 3rd, 4th placers had already been banned for doping when Armstrong was dethroned that the Tour simply never named replacement winners.
And since the top riders were doping, then their teammates(who ride in support) had to be doping to keep up and perform their domestique duties.

FastDan1 09-17-2019 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dead Cat (Post 21865723)
However, as already mentioned, OJ wasn't known worldwide for his sporting accomplishments like Lance was, ... Pete Rose is certainly in contention on the same basis, ...

Is Pete Rose really that more well known than OJ internationally based on their sporting achievements? I'm not saying Pete shouldn't be mentioned, but OJ was a Heisman trophy winner, NFL Hall of Famer, and arguably one of the top 10 greatest NFL running backs of all time.

kenobi 65 09-17-2019 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dead Cat (Post 21865723)
Pete Rose is certainly in contention on the same basis, as are Jim Brown and Tiger Woods. My pick is the latter, I think - undisputed top-2 all-time in his sport, a sport with more global reach than gridiron, baseball, or cycling, squeaky clean image, millions of dollars in sponsorships, and loses it all in a matter of weeks involving serial infidelity, drug use, and crime (the DUI). Yes, he is fairly well rehabilitated by now, but in terms of "Biggest athlete, biggest fall from grace" I'd say he's the one. Maybe I'm weighting the first part too highly, plus recency bias, so I'm not going to say that's the final answer, just making a case.

Woods' fall from grace, image-wise, also coincided with his body starting to break down on him. It probably would have been one thing if he'd been able to still play golf at his previous level while trying to work through his personal life, but he was also simultaneously dealing with chronic injuries, making his play inconsistent, and leading to extended periods when he played little, if at all.

Wilson 09-17-2019 11:59 AM

Ray Rice has got to be on the list somewhere.

kenobi 65 09-17-2019 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FastDan1 (Post 21865753)
Is Pete Rose really that more well known than OJ internationally based on their sporting achievements? I'm not saying Pete shouldn't be mentioned, but OJ was a Heisman trophy winner, NFL Hall of Famer, and arguably one of the top 10 greatest NFL running backs of all time.

I suspect that neither of them were terribly well-known outside of the US for what they did on the field. When OJ played football, it was in the 1960s and 1970s, when the sport had even less awareness outside of the US than it does now. I wouldn't be surprised if OJ's acting career was largely what made him known outside of the US (at least, before the murders).

In Rose's case, I imagine that he might have been at least known in other countries where baseball is popular.

Gorsnak 09-17-2019 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alessan (Post 21865576)
This. Everyone else mentioned, no matter what else they did, they still have their achievements. Even O.J. was once a very good athlete. Armstrong doesn't even have that.

Well, he does still have a few official results from the early part of his career. He has a couple of TdF stage wins, the '93 Worlds RR, '95 Clasica San Sebastian, '96 Fleche Wallone, and assorted minor wins. That would be a respectable career for a pro cyclist.

I think he stills wins this competition, though. Didn't even have to cheat to do it.....


....oh wait, he did.

FastDan1 09-17-2019 12:14 PM

I agree neither OJ nor Pete were likely well known worldwide. I was just questioning Dead Cat saying that Pete Rose was in contention, but OJ wasn't well know worldwide.

Annie-Xmas 09-17-2019 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atamasama (Post 21865637)
Most of his charges were dropped or he was acquitted, true, but OJ was the original example in the OP and donít forget that he was also acquitted. Brown being considered possibly the best football player ever, then having such a tumultuous life following football, thatís really a shame.

OJ was acquitted in his first criminal trial. He was found guilty in the Goldman's civil trial, found guilty in his second trial and did jail time. The man is hubris extremeus, thinking he can get away with breaking the law whenever he wants to.

There's a lovely story in the 1st Chicken Soup for the Soul about the young fan who waits outside the player's room for a chance to talk to his football idol, Jim Brown, who asks him his name. "Orenthal James. My friends call me OJ."

That was printed in 1993. Bet you the authors regretted that a year later.

kenobi 65 09-17-2019 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Annie-Xmas (Post 21865831)
OJ was acquitted in his first criminal trial. He was found guilty in the Goldman's civil trial, found guilty in his second trial and did jail time.

Jut to be clear, the "second trial" had nothing to do with the murders -- it was for a separate incident, for which he was charged (and convicted) of armed robbery, kidnapping, and other offenses.

Regardless...I agree, he's scum.

Quercus 09-17-2019 12:30 PM

Lance Armstrong definitely on paper had a huge fall: once in the argument for best ever in his international sport, and now formally stripped of his most important wins (I can't think of anyone else who might be on this thread's list who had their victories revoked). But, while I think he's a major jerk and deserves to have lost his public goodwill, his crime was basically doing what everyone else was doing. Maybe there was someone who finished the Tour de France (in the back of the back) without doping in Armstrong's years, but his major competitors were all just as doped-up as he was.

In other words, it's not like he brutally knife-murdered two people.


On the completely opposite end of the spectrum, for not really that big an athlete or big a fall, but honorable mention in the 'fall unfolding live on TV' category, I nominate Joe Namath.

Superdude 09-17-2019 12:30 PM

Rae Carruth, maybe?

Dead Cat 09-17-2019 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by running coach (Post 21865741)
No probably. The standard procedure when a Tour winner is found to be doping is to advance the 2nd place finisher to winner. So many of the 2nd, 3rd, 4th placers had already been banned for doping when Armstrong was dethroned that the Tour simply never named replacement winners.
And since the top riders were doping, then their teammates(who ride in support) had to be doping to keep up and perform their domestique duties.

You're right, I worded that incorrectly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FastDan1 (Post 21865753)
Is Pete Rose really that more well known than OJ internationally based on their sporting achievements? I'm not saying Pete shouldn't be mentioned, but OJ was a Heisman trophy winner, NFL Hall of Famer, and arguably one of the top 10 greatest NFL running backs of all time.

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I believe neither OJ nor Rose were generally known worldwide outside fans of their respective sports. But I think Pete Rose has a better claim to be the answer to the OP's question than many others mentioned in this thread, because of his status in baseball, as RickJay has already summarised. In my view Woods trumps both, because of his status in his sport and because that sport has more global recognition. I don't know enough about either sport to argue whether Rose was better-known than OJ for their sporting accomplishments.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kenobi 65 (Post 21865766)
Woods' fall from grace, image-wise, also coincided with his body starting to break down on him. It probably would have been one thing if he'd been able to still play golf at his previous level while trying to work through his personal life, but he was also simultaneously dealing with chronic injuries, making his play inconsistent, and leading to extended periods when he played little, if at all.

Indeed, thanks.

Annie-Xmas 09-17-2019 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kenobi 65 (Post 21865847)
Jut to be clear, the "second trial" had nothing to do with the murders -- it was for a separate incident, for which he was charged (and convicted) of armed robbery, kidnapping, and other offenses.

Regardless...I agree, he's scum.

As long as I am alive, I will not let anyone forget that OJ lost the civil trial based on the murders and was stupid enough to commit another crime, found guilty and did jail time. If I had been found "not guilty" of two murders, I would never so much as jay walk ever again.

Calling the man scum is insulting to the scum.

Railer13 09-17-2019 01:09 PM

I agree with others, that it has to be OJ.

Pete Rose is banned from baseball, and, at least for the moment, is also banned from the Hall of Fame. But he recently was an analyst for Fox Sports, and he might still be employed there, even though he's really bad at it.

Telemark 09-17-2019 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quercus (Post 21865853)
But, while I think he's a major jerk and deserves to have lost his public goodwill, his crime was basically doing what everyone else was doing.

Everyone was doping, yes. But the other doping cyclists didn't set out to destroy the lives of anyone who tried to expose them like Lance Armstrong did. He tried to ruin peoples' professional and personal lives to support his lies and cheating.

Annie-Xmas 09-17-2019 01:33 PM

The others are remembered as "athletes who fell from grace. OJ is remembered as "he guy who got off on a double murder charge and later went to prison. And, oh year, he played football and acted in movies."

OJ is remembered first and foremost as a criminal. As he should be.

Atamasama 09-17-2019 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Annie-Xmas (Post 21865831)
OJ was acquitted in his first criminal trial. He was found guilty in the Goldman's civil trial, found guilty in his second trial and did jail time. The man is hubris extremeus, thinking he can get away with breaking the law whenever he wants to.

Absolutely. It’s not like he “got away with it”. I’m just saying that when talking about Brown, if anyone is tempted to dismiss his violent crimes because he avoided punishment for most of them, OJ was the same, especially the trial that he gave him the most infamy.

Quote:

There's a lovely story in the 1st Chicken Soup for the Soul about the young fan who waits outside the player's room for a chance to talk to his football idol, Jim Brown, who asks him his name. "Orenthal James. My friends call me OJ."

That was printed in 1993. Bet you the authors regretted that a year later.
“Kid, you remind me of myself at your age.” :D

If anything, it’s no less appropriate a story, probably just not for the reason the author intended. (And yeah, I know pretty much everything in those books was BS, they’re basically the same inspirational urban legends and rumors you’d see today on Facebook except predating social media by many years.)

BobLibDem 09-17-2019 02:19 PM

If coaches are eligible for consideration, Joe Paterno takes first prize. How many people get statues of them removed?

I'd put OJ ahead of Pete Rose. At least Pete didn't kill anybody.

Loach 09-17-2019 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joey P (Post 21865082)
I don't follow baseball (or, really, any sports), but over the years I've had roommates that did so I'd pick a little up here and there.
I feel like back when I was finishing college (around 01-02), I remember hearing a lot about Sammy Sosa and Mark McGuire battling it out for the most home runs (ever?). Right around the same time there was talk of drugs/PEDs and I haven't heard much about either since then.

Sosa has become weirdly pink and Iím not sure what heís doing but McGuire was a coach in the major leagues until this season.

That Don Guy 09-17-2019 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobLibDem (Post 21866087)
If coaches are eligible for consideration, Joe Paterno takes first prize. How many people get statues of them removed?

At the same time, he's still the all-time Division I and I-A/FBS football coaching wins leader, despite the NCAA's attempts to "vacate" quite a few of his wins for reasons other than using ineligible players.

My vote goes to Lance Armstrong - a lot of the other people mentioned still have their accomplishments; pretty much the only thing Armstrong still has is his 2002 Sports Illustrated Sportsperson of the Year award, and he probably only has that because there's no precedent for SI withdrawing it.

Atamasama 09-17-2019 02:52 PM

Another thing about Lance Armstrong is that he’s pretty much the only famous cyclist in America. Cycling was synonymous with him. There were no other celebrities from that sport. His fall was the fall of the popularity/awareness of the sport to the average American.

madsircool 09-17-2019 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atamasama (Post 21866155)
Another thing about Lance Armstrong is that heís pretty much the only famous cyclist in America. Cycling was synonymous with him. There were no other celebrities from that sport. His fall was the fall of the popularity/awareness of the sport to the average American.

Except for the guy said to be the greatest American cyclist, Greg Lemond.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_LeMond

Snarky_Kong 09-17-2019 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by madsircool (Post 21866185)
Except for the guy said to be the greatest American cyclist, Greg Lemond.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_LeMond

Never heard of him, and if it was possible to measure I'd bet most other Americans never heard of him either.

Hoopy Frood 09-17-2019 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snarky_Kong (Post 21866288)
Never heard of him, and if it was possible to measure I'd bet most other Americans never heard of him either.

Really? I don't even follow cycling and as I recall, LeMond was pretty famous up until Armstrong eclipsed him by miles by blowing away every single record LeMond held. LeMond was the guy that put cycling on the map for the United States.

And, from what I recall, there was such a large gap in Lance's performance compared to LeMond's that it seems likely LeMond wasn't cheating when he accomplished everything he did.

kenobi 65 09-17-2019 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hoopy Frood (Post 21866371)
Really? I don't even follow cycling and as I recall, LeMond was pretty famous up until Armstrong eclipsed him by miles by blowing away every single record LeMond held. LeMond was the guy that put cycling on the map for the United States.

LeMond was at least moderately well-known in the U.S. when he was winning the Tour de France in the late 1980s; he was even Sports Illustrated's Sportsman of the Year in 1989.

But, I think, at that point, cycling was still a very niche sport here, and, as you note, when Armstrong came along, he took over as *the* name in U.S. cycling, and the then-retired LeMond faded from the public consciousness. I wouldn't be surprised if, as Snarky Kong suggests, most Americans today wouldn't recognize LeMond's name, but I think he was considerbly more well-known in his prime, 30 years ago. (Not O.J. Simpson or Pete Rose level fame, mind you... ;) )

Atamasama 09-17-2019 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snarky_Kong (Post 21866288)
Never heard of him, and if it was possible to measure I'd bet most other Americans never heard of him either.

Me either. Well, itís vaguely familiar I guess, but if you mentioned the name Iíd have no idea who you were talking about.

HubZilla 09-17-2019 06:55 PM

The perception in Nebraska is that coach Tom Osborne could be on the list "thanks to the media". Legendary coach, 255 wins in 25 seasons, 3 national titles, no NCAA probations, and nice guy.

But when he retired in 1997, all the news reports seemed to say "Oh, you mean the guy who let criminal Lawrence Phillips play?"

Chingon 09-17-2019 07:38 PM

I'm not sure skeletor counts as an athlete.

Blank Slate 09-17-2019 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atamasama (Post 21865637)
,,,Brown being considered possibly the best football player ever, then having such a tumultuous life following football, thatís really a shame.

He's also considered one of the greatest lacrosse players of all time. He's even in the Lacrosse Hall of Fame.

Not the biggest fall, but certainly timely. Two time all-star and Pittsburgh Pirates closer Felix Vazquez just destroyed his MLB career. If convicted, he'll lose the remaining $13 million on his contract due to the standard morals clause.

running coach 09-17-2019 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blank Slate (Post 21866903)
He's also considered one of the greatest lacrosse players of all time. He's even in the Lacrosse Hall of Fame.

Not the biggest fall, but certainly timely. Two time all-star and Pittsburgh Pirates closer Felix Vazquez just destroyed his MLB career. If convicted, he'll lose the remaining $13 million on his contract due to the standard morals clause.

Your second link is the same as the first. And it's Felipe Vasquez.
Quote:

Vazquez has been charged in Lee County, Florida with one count of computer pornography, solicitation of a child and one count of providing obscene material to minors

snfaulkner 09-17-2019 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hoopy Frood (Post 21866371)
Really? I don't even follow cycling and as I recall, LeMond was pretty famous up until Armstrong eclipsed him by miles by blowing away every single record LeMond held. LeMond was the guy that put cycling on the map for the United States.

And, from what I recall, there was such a large gap in Lance's performance compared to LeMond's that it seems likely LeMond wasn't cheating when he accomplished everything he did.

He was on an episode of phineas and ferb fer chrissakes! Phineas...and... Ferb! You don't get bigger than that.

nearwildheaven 09-17-2019 11:46 PM

Don't think I've seen Michael Vick here, but he's paid his debt to society, so I guess what he did was OK. (Yeah, heard that more than once.)

:smack:

Tony Harding's fall from grace doesn't hold a candle to what happened to Debi Thomas. That's a long-running tragedy.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local...?noredirect=on

Christopher Bowman was another ice skater who met a tragic end.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Bowman

Jet Jaguar 09-18-2019 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by running coach (Post 21865741)
No probably. The standard procedure when a Tour winner is found to be doping is to advance the 2nd place finisher to winner. So many of the 2nd, 3rd, 4th placers had already been banned for doping when Armstrong was dethroned that the Tour simply never named replacement winners.
And since the top riders were doping, then their teammates(who ride in support) had to be doping to keep up and perform their domestique duties.

Indeed. For example, I just looked at the final General Classification standings for the 2002 Tour. That was Armstrong's 4th "win", and therefore right in the middle of his run. I had to go down to Carlos Sastre in 10th to find the first rider that hadn't been caught, confessed, or implicated in a doping scandal.

Annie-Xmas 09-18-2019 10:20 AM

As far as the radical religious are concerned, I image OJ doesn't hold a candle to Bruce Jenner:

Quote:

Originally Posted by consevapedia
Bruce Jenner (also known as Caitlyn Jenner per his own wishes, b. October 28, 1949) is an American athlete, reality show star, and homosexual and gender confusion "rights" activist.

He is a registered Republican but has issued criticisms of President Donald Trump for not kowtowing to the homosexual agenda. This was after Jenner supported and endorsed Trump after Ted Cruz dropped out of the 2016 Presidential race. Jenner also claims to be a Christian, despite living a gender-confused lifestyle.

On a side note, WTF is a "gender-confused lifestyle"?

Intergalactic Gladiator 09-18-2019 01:02 PM

Mark Gastineau, defensive end for the NY Jets:

Legal issues
In 1984, Gastineau was found guilty of assaulting a patron at Studio 54. He was sentenced to 90 hours of community service, teaching football to inmates at Rikers Island.

In 1991, Gastineau was arrested for picking up a package of amphetamine pills at Phoenix Sky Harbor Airport. He was sentenced to three years probation in 1993.

In September, 2000, Gastineau was sentenced to 18 months in jail after failing to complete an anger management course after hitting his second wife, Patricia.

Quercus 09-19-2019 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Telemark (Post 21865947)
Everyone was doping, yes. But the other doping cyclists didn't set out to destroy the lives of anyone who tried to expose them like Lance Armstrong did. He tried to ruin peoples' professional and personal lives to support his lies and cheating.

Good point; this was going beyond 'just doing what everyone else did'


I think I'm voting for Paterno if he counts. The guy who was supposed to be the shining example of the opposite of a 'win at all costs' mentality was in fact perfectly willing to pay the cost of kids being raped, in order to win. No deaths, but probably the next worst thing, and there were a lot more than two victims.

AK84 09-19-2019 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hoopy Frood (Post 21866371)

And, from what I recall, there was such a large gap in Lance's performance compared to LeMond's that it seems likely LeMond wasn't cheating when he accomplished everything he did.

LeMond was one of the earliest vocal doubters of Armstrong's accomplishments.

Poysyn 09-19-2019 10:22 AM

What about Mike Tyson? Convicted rapist and bit his opponents ears off in his “comeback”.

Harrington 09-19-2019 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by russian heel (Post 21865046)

Lenny Dykstra--- former near .400 baseball hitter...

Sorry, just a nitpick here: When did Lenny Dykstra nearly hit .400?

And I'll submit Mark Chmura. Though acquitted of raping a 17-year-old, he was drunk at a party with teenagers. His career plummeted thereafter.

Clawdio 09-19-2019 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AK84 (Post 21869759)
LeMond was one of the earliest vocal doubters of Armstrong's accomplishments.

Indeed. And and I believe he faced a lot of blowback for it at the time.

There was a 30 for 30 about LeMond and his rivalry with French cyclist Bernard Hinault that i thought was fascinating.

Baron Greenback 09-19-2019 03:39 PM

Everyone loves Ben Johnson, the Canadian who wins the 1988 Olympic 100m final in a world record time!

*three days later*

We regret to inform you that Ben Johnson is a massive drug cheat.

ElvisL1ves 09-19-2019 03:46 PM

When he was a champ, he was Canadian. Afterward, he was "a Jamaican immigrant".

Blank Slate 09-19-2019 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baron Greenback (Post 21870558)
Everyone loves Ben Johnson, the Canadian who wins the 1988 Olympic 100m final in a world record time!

*three days later*

We regret to inform you that Ben Johnson is a massive drug cheat.

And in between, Johnson famously said:

Quote:

A gold medal -- that's something no one can take away from you.

Harrington 09-19-2019 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blank Slate (Post 21870632)
And in between, Johnson famously said:

Quote:

A gold medal -- that's something no one can take away from you.
That's actually kind of true. They didn't take the actual medal from him. Presumably, he still has it. But I guess someone can take it from him...robbery, for example.

StusBlues 09-19-2019 04:19 PM

I just saw Lance Armstrong in an ad for some supplement on YouTube. I'm gobsmacked. What the hell were they thinking? Then again, NBC had him on their Tour de France coverage.

Nobody ever asked OJ to drop by the broadcast booth for NFL games, so I'd probably rank Simpson's fall from grace as more substantial than Armstrong's. Folks forget how popular OJ was back in the day. A poll in 1976 ranked him the most admired celebrity by school-age boys AND girls, above folks like Neil Armstrong and Chris Evert. Yes, his fame was almost entirely within the US, but that's a mighty big market, and he was a mighty big star. By 1995, no one of any note wanted to be associated with him.

StusBlues 09-19-2019 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poysyn (Post 21869802)
What about Mike Tyson? Convicted rapist and bit his opponents ears off in his ďcomebackĒ.

But today, kinda popular with the "bro" set. His fall was drastic, but he hasn't hit bottom like OJ or Pistorius, or probably even Armstrong. The man even had an Adult Swim series in 2014. The type of people who would be most apt to like Tyson in the first place would also be the most likely to overlook his rape conviction.

Tyson has taken a circuitous route from mainstream idol to cult favorite.

Blank Slate 09-19-2019 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harrington (Post 21870646)
That's actually kind of true. They didn't take the actual medal from him. Presumably, he still has it. But I guess someone can take it from him...robbery, for example.

Take it they did:

Quote:

Just 24 hours later Johnson had failed a drugs test when traces of the banned steroid stanozolol were found in his urine. And after delegation arrived at his room. Johnson handed the medal back to the IOC, much to the consternation of his mother. One of the International Olympic Committee (IOC) officials present described the scene as like a "wake."

Harrington 09-19-2019 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blank Slate (Post 21870785)
Take it they did:

Wow. Thanks for the education. But could they have taken it from him legally, if challenged? The story says "Johnson handed the medal back to the IOC." implying he gave it back voluntarily.

Loach 09-19-2019 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StusBlues (Post 21870695)
But today, kinda popular with the "bro" set. His fall was drastic, but he hasn't hit bottom like OJ or Pistorius, or probably even Armstrong. The man even had an Adult Swim series in 2014. The type of people who would be most apt to like Tyson in the first place would also be the most likely to overlook his rape conviction.

Tyson has taken a circuitous route from mainstream idol to cult favorite.

Tyson had a one man show on Broadway. Heís been in movies. Heís doing much better than many boxing champs.

chizzuk 09-19-2019 08:44 PM

I don't know if Aaron Hernandez was the biggest fall, since he only played 3 seasons and lost the Super Bowl. But I certainly think he was the hardest fall. Six months after his Super Bowl appearance, he started a chain of events that ended with three murders (I know he was only convicted of one, but I think he committed all three or was so close to it that it made no real difference), a sentence of life without parole, and then suicide in prison, within a span of less than 5 years. He could have had two SB rings by now and instead he's a convicted murderer six feet under.

Kent Clark 09-19-2019 09:57 PM

Top level chess players have a notorious reputation of being close to the edge, and a few have gone over it. The top example is Bobby Fisher, who lost his World Championship when he refused to defend it, became a recluse, then resurfaced 20 years later to play a non-sanctioned match; got himself in trouble with the U.S. government, publicly applauded the 9/11 attacks, and was a noted anti-Semite, among other personality flaws.

But Fisher isn't the only one. Wilhelm Steinmetz died in a mental hospital, penniless. Paul Morphy may have had a shoe fetish. Alexander Alekhine collaborated with the Nazis and was possibly murdered by a Soviet hit squad. Compared to them, Gary Kasparov's attempt to steal (actually buy) the presidency of the World Chess Federation is pretty mundane.

Harrington 09-19-2019 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kent Clark (Post 21871207)
Top level chess players have a notorious reputation of being close to the edge, and a few have gone over it. The top example is Bobby Fisher, who lost his World Championship when he refused to defend it, became a recluse, then resurfaced 20 years later to play a non-sanctioned match; got himself in trouble with the U.S. government, publicly applauded the 9/11 attacks, and was a noted anti-Semite, among other personality flaws.

But Fisher isn't the only one. Wilhelm Steinmetz died in a mental hospital, penniless. Paul Morphy may have had a shoe fetish. Alexander Alekhine collaborated with the Nazis and was possibly murdered by a Soviet hit squad. Compared to them, Gary Kasparov's attempt to steal (actually buy) the presidency of the World Chess Federation is pretty mundane.

If we're going outside the realm of sports, (Fisher was not an athlete), there's Edgar Allan Poe.

Atamasama 09-19-2019 11:17 PM

Chess is kind of the opposite of athletics, so bringing up chess is very much off-topic.

StusBlues 09-20-2019 01:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atamasama (Post 21871323)
Chess is kind of the opposite of athletics, so bringing up chess is very much off-topic.

Interesting. Sports Illustrated did cover chess back in the day, and we are in the Game Room.

I wouldn't put Morphy's shoe thing in with the other dramatic collapses of great chess minds. It is more odd that, like Fischer, Morphy dropped the game at such an early age (22, compared with Fischer's effective retirement at 32). It is understandable that he wanted to make his name as an attorney, but somewhat befuddling that he would not return to the game when his legal career tanked.

Harrington 09-20-2019 02:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StusBlues (Post 21871459)
Interesting. Sports Illustrated did cover chess back in the day, and we are in the Game Room.

The title states "athletes." Not even in the wildest chess proponent's wet dream would a chess player be considered an athlete. ESPN covered, I believe, the 1995 WCC, Kasparov vs. Anand. Still not athletes.

kitap 09-20-2019 02:37 AM

Do we count Rosie Ruiz?

madsircool 09-20-2019 03:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atamasama (Post 21871323)
Chess is kind of the opposite of athletics, so bringing up chess is very much off-topic.

https://gamesmaven.io/chessdailynews...km6BCaFpeXOVw/

Harrington 09-20-2019 04:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by madsircool (Post 21871530)

Chess players working out doesn't make them athletes, especially in the context of this thread, whose title states "athletes." If anyone who works out are athletes, I'm an athlete! The article even says "Because professional chess is sedentary."

Dead Cat 09-20-2019 04:20 AM

Then there is this recent ESPN article: https://www.espn.co.uk/espn/story/_/...-playing-chess

I'm not sure I would call them athletes, myself (and we've debated this in The Game Room before) but I don't think it's so out there that it could be considered a hijack. It's not an easy distinction to make, believe me we have tried. Mainly a matter of personal preference.

Harrington 09-20-2019 04:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dead Cat (Post 21871544)
...but I don't think it's so out there that it could be considered a hijack.

I do. And I'm sure the OP and this room's moderator would agree. The title makes it clear that the OP is talking about professional athletes. Bobby Fisher, or any chess player, who works out doesn't make them professional athletes. If anyone who does something active is an athlete, then we can start talking about the downfall of Bobby Flay and his grilling exploits, or anyone really, and this thread is meaningless. I'm quite sure that's not the intent of the OP. So much that I'm requesting this bullshit stop and the original intent of the OP be restored. If someone wants to discuss the possibility that accountants are athletes, open a thread in IMHO and stop hijacking this clearly titled thread.

Go_Arachnid_Laser 09-20-2019 05:09 AM

A'aight. You know all the names you just mentioned? Losers. Not a single one of them holds a candle to my guy.

Alexandre Villaplane was a well-known footballer (or soccer player, if you prefer) during the 1920's and the early 1930's in France. He was even the captain of the French side during the World Cup in 1930.

He was accused of fixing matches, but that wasn't proven. Then he got into horse racing and finally ended up in prison for fixing races. That isn't the juicy bit, either.

Because then, when the Nazis invaded, he went and joined them. He joined the Carlingue, known as the French Gestapo, and started counter-insurgency operations against the Resistance. He was known as a particularly brutal bastard and killed a bunch of people, stealing anything he could get his hands on meanwhile. Even the actual Gestapo eventually jailed him.

After the war he was executed in 1944.

So there you go. Do you have anything more extreme than a literal Nazi War Criminal with at least 10 proven murders to his name? I don't think so.

Harrington 09-20-2019 05:40 AM

Haven't seen Lawrence Taylor's name. Probably the best linebacker of his time. Throughout his career and since he's had trouble with alcohol, drugs, and avoiding underage prostitutes. Even though he's in the NFL HOF, he's now known more for his criminal exploits than his athletic accomplishments, and I believe is a lifetime registered sex offender.

Harrington 09-20-2019 05:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RickJay (Post 21865573)
Just to nitpick, when did Lenny get near .400? His career high was .325.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harrington
Sorry, just a nitpick here: When did Lenny Dykstra nearly hit .400?

I just read your post and thought I was reading my own, until I realized my name isn't RickJay. Sorry.

I believe the closest anyone's gotten to .400 since Ted Williams was Tony Gwynn's .390 in the strike-shortened 1994 season.

actualliberalnotoneofthose 09-20-2019 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Novelty Bobble (Post 21865226)
I think it has to be a world name for it to count so OJ wasn't really widely known as anything other than an actor outside of the USA before his arrest and trial.

And cricket players aren't known for anything at all inside the USA. just saying if an all-time NFL great is too specific to the USA to meet notability criteria you are going to have a hard time including sports that have zero reach here either.

Ulf the Unwashed 09-20-2019 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harrington (Post 21871585)
I just read your post and thought I was reading my own, until I realized my name isn't RickJay. Sorry.

I believe the closest anyone's gotten to .400 since Ted Williams was Tony Gwynn's .390 in the strike-shortened 1994 season.

Brett was the one that hit .390, back in 1980 (exactly halfway between now and Williams's .406, if anyone wants to feel old).

Gwynn hit .394 in 1994 ('94 in '94).

Gatopescado 09-20-2019 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobLibDem (Post 21866087)
If coaches are eligible for consideration, Joe Paterno takes first prize. How many people get statues of them removed?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quercus (Post 21869697)
I think I'm voting for Paterno if he counts.

Yeah. The guy was a Living Legend before the shit went down. Evoked fanatical devotion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Go_Arachnid_Laser (Post 21871561)
A'aight. You know all the names you just mentioned? Losers. Not a single one of them holds a candle to my guy.

Alexandre Villaplane was a well-known footballer....


So there you go. Do you have anything more extreme than a literal Nazi War Criminal with at least 10 proven murders to his name? I don't think so.

Hard to argue with this! :D

Akaj 09-20-2019 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harrington (Post 21871585)
I just read your post and thought I was reading my own, until I realized my name isn't RickJay. Sorry.

I believe the closest anyone's gotten to .400 since Ted Williams was Tony Gwynn's .390 in the strike-shortened 1994 season.

That's correct. The "near-.400" business about Dykstra comes from 1990, probably his best season, when he was hitting over .400 almost to midseason with the Phillies. Maybe because he was still a favorite of the New York press from his Mets days, there were a lot of "Can Lenny hit .400?" articles.

Kent Clark 09-20-2019 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atamasama (Post 21871323)
Chess is kind of the opposite of athletics, so bringing up chess is very much off-topic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harrington (Post 21871488)
The title states "athletes." Not even in the wildest chess proponent's wet dream would a chess player be considered an athlete. ESPN covered, I believe, the 1995 WCC, Kasparov vs. Anand. Still not athletes.

Says people sitting at their keyboards.:rolleyes:

Chess is a competition. The people I mentioned were world-famous, and they all had a fall from grace. In fact, unlike O.J. and some of the others cited, their (at least initial) fall from grace was directly related to their field of endeavor.

Anyone here have a problem with Joe Paterno (and Woody Hayes) being on the list? After all, they were coaches, not athletes.

Atamasama 09-20-2019 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kent Clark (Post 21872306)
Says people sitting at their keyboards.:rolleyes:

Chess is a competition. The people I mentioned were world-famous, and they all had a fall from grace. In fact, unlike O.J. and some of the others cited, their (at least initial) fall from grace was directly related to their field of endeavor.

Anyone here have a problem with Joe Paterno (and Woody Hayes) being on the list? After all, they were coaches, not athletes.

Paterno and Hayes were famous as coaches, not athletes, so yes theyíre ineligible. If the thread was about the ďbiggest names in athleticsĒ that would be different, but itís not.

Again, chess is not an athletic endeavor so itís a total hijack. Otherwise weíre talking about famous actors, politicians, and so on. Poe was mentioned as a throw-away example too.

Akaj 09-20-2019 01:49 PM

Someone upthread mentioned Sammy Sosa, and he'd be near the top of my list in the Non-Criminal category.

He was damn near a national hero during the 1997 home run chase with McGwire, and his career stats would have made him a first-ballot Hall-of-Famer were it not for the taint of steroid use. (And it is just a taint -- unlike McGwire, Clemens, Bonds and others, he never tested positive nor was named by credible witnesses as a user.*)

Yet by 2004 his attitude got him traded out of Chicago, and he's managed to make himself more of a pariah as time passes, most recently and unforgivably comparing himself to Jesus in an interview designed to return him to the Cubs' good graces.

Like Bonds and Clemens, he'll never sniff the HOF, but those guys were never beloved. Sosa was once nearly as popular as Michael Jordan in these parts, but now he's barely a punchline.

*FWIW I think he did use steroids, and heavily, just based on the circumstantial and statistical evidence.

Akaj 09-20-2019 01:56 PM

I agree Lance Armstrong ranks high -- and deserves all the scorn the world can muster -- but I'm surprised no one's mentioned the Livestrong Foundation he helped found. It's still going strong (no pun intended) and has raised huge sums for cancer research and patient support.

It's impossible to calculate how much his unprecedented success (ill-gotten though it was) contributed to the impact of the foundation, but I wouldn't be surprised if there are lots of cancer survivors who still consider him a hero.

Novelty Bobble 09-21-2019 07:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by actualliberalnotoneofthose (Post 21871838)
And cricket players aren't known for anything at all inside the USA.

Why does that have any bearing on how famous someone is? Why would fame in the USA be a requirement?

There are dozens of football players and cricketers that would be instantly recognisable to hundreds of millions in dozens of countries and yet would barely get a flicker in the USA. And dozens of NFL players who would be mobbed in the USA and get nothing but a furrowed brow anywhere else in the world.

Atamasama 09-21-2019 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Novelty Bobble (Post 21873478)
Why does that have any bearing on how famous someone is? Why would fame in the USA be a requirement?

There are dozens of football players and cricketers that would be instantly recognisable to hundreds of millions in dozens of countries and yet would barely get a flicker in the USA. And dozens of NFL players who would be mobbed in the USA and get nothing but a furrowed brow anywhere else in the world.

And thatís exactly what the point is. There arenít that many athletes recognized worldwide, honestly.

If you argue that an athlete in the US isnít that big of a deal if they arenít famous in every corner of the world, then offer up another example that isnít famous in every corner of the world, then youíre really just biased against American athletes. Which is silly on a message board frequented primarily by Americans.

Novelty Bobble 09-21-2019 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atamasama (Post 21873611)
If you argue that an athlete in the US isnít that big of a deal if they arenít famous in every corner of the world, then offer up another example that isnít famous in every corner of the world,youíre really just biased against American athletes. Which is silly on a message board frequented primarily by Americans.

Seeing as the prime example I offered as an example was an American athlete then I don't think your accusation holds water.

For me, a figure well known across the 90% of the world but not in the USA counts as a more famous figure than someone only really well known in the USA. Even someone only really known across 50% of the world counts as more of a big deal to me than someone only really known in the USA.

madsircool 09-21-2019 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Novelty Bobble (Post 21873689)
Seeing as the prime example I offered as an example was an American athlete then I don't think your accusation holds water.

For me, a figure well known across the 90% of the world but not in the USA counts as a more famous figure than someone only really well known in the USA. Even someone only really known across 50% of the world counts as more of a big deal to me than someone only really known in the USA.

TBF, the biggest sport in China is basketball and in India cricket. Thats about 1/3 of the world where footballers, American nor Real, would be basically unknown. I know they are trying to push footie in China but basketball will always be king.

Chronos 09-21-2019 11:58 AM

[Moderating]

I don't usually like to be the Hijack Police, but I've gotten multiple reports over this, and so in the interest of keeping the peace, I'm going to declare non-athletic competitors (like chess players) and coaches to be off-limits for this specific thread. If you wish to discuss them, I encourage starting a new thread for them.

Loach 09-21-2019 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akaj (Post 21872399)
I agree Lance Armstrong ranks high -- and deserves all the scorn the world can muster -- but I'm surprised no one's mentioned the Livestrong Foundation he helped found. It's still going strong (no pun intended) and has raised huge sums for cancer research and patient support.

It's impossible to calculate how much his unprecedented success (ill-gotten though it was) contributed to the impact of the foundation, but I wouldn't be surprised if there are lots of cancer survivors who still consider him a hero.

He also seems to be doing quite well with his clothing line and podcast.

asahi 09-21-2019 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loach (Post 21871007)
Tyson had a one man show on Broadway. Heís been in movies. Heís doing much better than many boxing champs.

I think that some sports tolerate human frailty more than others. A boxer could probably commit manslaughter and still have a post-conviction career on television, provided he didn't kill a child. People assume fighters are thugs.

But have so much as an affair in golf or tennis and it's an entirely different story, especially if you're the wrong race.

Gatopescado 09-21-2019 02:05 PM

RE: Mike Tyson's little cartoon show

Norm McDonald Kills as Pidgeon.

Brayne Ded 09-22-2019 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FastDan1 (Post 21865753)
Is Pete Rose really that more well known than OJ internationally based on their sporting achievements? I'm not saying Pete shouldn't be mentioned, but OJ was a Heisman trophy winner, NFL Hall of Famer, and arguably one of the top 10 greatest NFL running backs of all time.

Neither were well known internationally.

Brayne Ded 09-22-2019 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Annie-Xmas (Post 21865994)
The others are remembered as "athletes who fell from grace. OJ is remembered as "he guy who got off on a double murder charge and later went to prison. And, oh year, he played football and acted in movies."

OJ is remembered first and foremost as a criminal. As he should be.

Agreed. And widely regarded as "he did did but had a good lawyer." I think that murder )proven or otherwise) is worse than anything else. OJ was primarily known outside the USA as an actor.

Second choice: Lance Armstrong. Losing seven first placings!

Boxing has a number of those who fell from grace and ended up as sad wrecks.

Brayne Ded 09-22-2019 01:10 PM

Full version
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Annie-Xmas (Post 21865994)
The others are remembered as "athletes who fell from grace. OJ is remembered as "he guy who got off on a double murder charge and later went to prison. And, oh year, he played football and acted in movies."

OJ is remembered first and foremost as a criminal. As he should be.

Agreed. And widely regarded as "he did did but had a good lawyer." I think that murder )proven or otherwise) is worse than anything else. OJ was primarily known outside the USA as an actor.

In the same vein, Pistorius. I think he was reasonably well known worldwide, after all, he had novelty value.

Second choice: Lance Armstrong. Losing seven first placings!

Boxing has a number of those who fell from grace and ended up as sad wrecks.

As has already been pointed out, many sports such as football, soccer and cricket have a huge following in some countries and are just about unknown in others. generally speaking, the only ones who are known worldwide are Olympic athletes and boxers. Maybe also tennis starts?

Rucksinator 10-16-2019 11:58 PM

Better nominees have been put forth, but nobody has yet mentioned Jon Jones. There was a day when he heard an old lady yelling for help because somebody had snatched her purse. He ran down the purse snatcher and put him in a submission hold until the police could arrive. Hours later he won (or defended, this is all from memory, so some details could be wrong) the UFC Light Heavyweight title belt. [ETA:] At the time he was considered one of the greatest EVER.

Fast forward a few years and he's pretty much out of the sport after having failed 2 drug tests.

glowacks 10-20-2019 10:13 PM

The whole "failed drug tests" bit reminds me that I've heard that pretty much all professional athletes use performance enhancing chemicals in some way, but do so in ways that are sanctioned or at least not able to be detected. This rests something on the presumption that drug tests are not given at random points in time at an athlete's career, but that they can plan for exactly when they are going to be tested, and can train heavily under their influence for most of their career so long as there's no trace remaining when they test. From what I've read, this is pretty much standard procedure, but I'm also willing to believe it's the work of trolls trying to conjure up conspiracy theories. One would think it should be simple to catch everyone if they really wanted to: simply require drug tests every week for years before any finish counted; if you wanted to become eligible as a professional athlete, you would have to submit yourself to these tests by participating labs. It's certainly possible that most organizations don't do this because they know everyone's really cheating, and by giving them all a heads-up as to the infrequency of testing, they are able to push a more interesting product while claiming to be looking for cheaters.


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