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-   -   Is Joe Biden's campaign over before it starts? (https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=873262)

MyFootsZZZ 04-21-2019 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DSeid (Post 21602082)
or a record of nothing accomplished.



I don't want someone who's bipartisan. The Republicans don't give an inch and we try to bend at their will. they do whatever they want. And we're lucky to get crumbs of what we asked for.

We are weak.

Also... Please. Bernie has shifted the the goal post, and it's made these group of candidates better.

MyFootsZZZ 04-21-2019 10:28 PM

Another thing... The millennials I know, (and I know quite a few,) really seem to think Biden's creepy. I know he's just trying to be affectionate. But there's a generational thing that's going on there.

DSeid 04-21-2019 10:53 PM

Any Democratic president will need some GOP cross over in Congress to get things done. Some bipartisanship is required want it or not. Filibuster proof D Senate majority ain’t gawnna happen.

You are correct about a generational thing which is precisely why Biden’s support is so much unaffected. His support has not been mainly younger voters. Those voters see him as creepy. The voters less young have been more his strength and they do not see him as creepy.

MyFootsZZZ 04-21-2019 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DSeid (Post 21602119)
Any Democratic president will need some GOP cross over in Congress to get things done. Some bipartisanship is required want it or not. Filibuster proof D Senate majority ain’t gawnna happen.

You are correct about a generational thing which is precisely why Biden’s support is so much unaffected. His support has not been mainly younger voters. Those voters see him as creepy. The voters less young have been more his strength and they do not see him as creepy.

Bernie won't get everything he asks for, but may as well shoot for the stars.

If you'd like to bank on Biden, that's your call, but if I were you, someone who seems to dislike Bernie, I wouldn't put my money on Biden.

DSeid 04-21-2019 11:09 PM

FWIW I’ve been pretty clear that he is not my first choice at this point. The best argument I have for him is as made earlier, that he is likely to do best with the three groups that potentially swing the election in the key Northern Path states: Obama-Trump voters who like his “authenticity” off as it may often be; Romney-Clinton voters, who like his bipartisanship and chummy in the Beltway style; and Black voters with whom he polls very well. But even with that I am not convinced he is the best we have. Not yet sure he isn’t either though!

MyFootsZZZ 04-21-2019 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DSeid (Post 21602139)
FWIW I’ve been pretty clear that he is not my first choice at this point. The best argument I have for him is as made earlier, that he is likely to do best with the three groups that potentially swing the election in the key Northern Path states: Obama-Trump voters who like his “authenticity” off as it may often be; Romney-Clinton voters, who like his bipartisanship and chummy in the Beltway style; and Black voters with whom he polls very well. But even with that I am not convinced he is the best we have. Not yet sure he isn’t either though!

Maybe with Romney/Clinton.

I think you could argue the other two qualities for Bernie. Especially authenticity. And Biden wanted to segregate schools, didn't he?

MyFootsZZZ 04-21-2019 11:17 PM

Things are changing.

People (especially young people) see Obama as flawed.

What worked in the 90' ain't gonna cut it.

It's really ridiculous we don't have Medicare for all.

DrDeth 04-21-2019 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MyFootsZZZ (Post 21602099)
Another thing... The millennials I know, (and I know quite a few,) really seem to think Biden's creepy. I know he's just trying to be affectionate. But there's a generational thing that's going on there.

That's because Sanders supporters and the Kremlin have painted him as such. I thought the millennials were supposed to be the tech savvy generation?

MyFootsZZZ 04-21-2019 11:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrDeth (Post 21602158)
That's because Sanders supporters and the Kremlin have painted him as such. I thought the millennials were supposed to be the tech savvy generation?

Wat?

Don't bring Russia into this. Vlad didn't put his hands all over people.

And the aggression... It really turns people off.

Edit. Maybe not aggression but you're certainly condescending.

Aspenglow 04-21-2019 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MyFootsZZZ (Post 21602166)
Wat?

Don't bring Russia into this. Vlad didn't put his hands all over people.

And the aggression... It really turns people off.

You would do well to review Mueller's report.

I would direct you specifically to pages 23 and 45. The Russians were very busy making Bernie look good and Hillary look bad.

At page 23: By February 2016, Russian instructions to IRA specialists: “Main idea: Use any opportunity to criticize Hillary (Clinton) and the rest (except Sanders and Trump – we support them).”

At page 45: From the GRU: “We think Trump has only a 25% chance of winning against Hillary… so conflict between Bernie and Hillary is interesting.”

I'm sure there is more. I am still reading the full report. You should, too.

DrDeth 04-21-2019 11:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aspenglow (Post 21602174)
You would do well to review Mueller's report.

I would direct you specifically to pages 23 and 45. The Russians were very busy making Bernie look good and Hillary look bad.

At page 23: By February 2016, Russian instructions to IRA specialists: “Main idea: Use any opportunity to criticize Hillary (Clinton) and the rest (except Sanders and Trump – we support them).”

At page 45: From the GRU: “We think Trump has only a 25% chance of winning against Hillary… so conflict between Bernie and Hillary is interesting.”

I'm sure there is more. I am still reading the full report. You should, too.

Mic drop.

MyFootsZZZ 04-21-2019 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aspenglow (Post 21602174)
You would do well to review Mueller's report.

I would direct you specifically to pages 23 and 45. The Russians were very busy making Bernie look good and Hillary look bad.

At page 23: By February 2016, Russian instructions to IRA specialists: “Main idea: Use any opportunity to criticize Hillary (Clinton) and the rest (except Sanders and Trump – we support them).”

At page 45: From the GRU: “We think Trump has only a 25% chance of winning against Hillary… so conflict between Bernie and Hillary is interesting.”

I'm sure there is more. I am still reading the full report. You should, too.


What's out there about the candidates is out. There's no going back. If you're implying that I'm a Russian puppet, I can only try to assure you that I'm voting FOR Bernie... not AGAINST other Democrats.

MyFootsZZZ 04-21-2019 11:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrDeth (Post 21602179)
Mic drop.

...really?

I'm trying to help you guys.

Aspenglow 04-21-2019 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MyFootsZZZ (Post 21602183)
What's out there about the candidates is out. There's no going back. If you're implying that I'm a Russian puppet, I can only try to assure you that I'm voting FOR Bernie... not AGAINST other Democrats.

The only thing I am saying -- not implying -- is that you are ill informed. Educate yourself.

It's simple, really. If Bernie wins the nomination, vote for Bernie. If Biden wins the nomination, vote for Biden.

See how easy this is?

MyFootsZZZ 04-21-2019 11:46 PM

This behavior turns people off. You think you're entitled.

I vote for who I want. I'm more than secure with my decision... And the elections a long ways away. You never know what can happen.

MyFootsZZZ 04-21-2019 11:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aspenglow (Post 21602186)
The only thing I am saying -- not implying -- is that you are ill informed. Educate yourself.

It's simple, really. If Bernie wins the nomination, vote for Bernie. If Biden wins the nomination, vote for Biden.

See how easy this is?

Who said I wasn't doing that? You've got to look out for the kids that probably wouldn't be a enticed vote if it weren't for Bernie 'speaking' to them last election. He broadened the market.

Why is it that you think I'm not educated?

DSeid 04-22-2019 07:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MyFootsZZZ (Post 21602145)
Maybe with Romney/Clinton.

I think you could argue the other two qualities for Bernie. Especially authenticity. And Biden wanted to segregate schools, didn't he?

Maybe you could argue that for Bernie might do okay with Obama-Trump voters, maybe. But there is very little question that Biden would. And cited before, by polling none of the current contenders do as well with Black voters as Biden does, certainly not Sanders. Would it change with a negative barrage? Possibly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MyFootsZZZ (Post 21602150)
Things are changing.

People (especially young people) see Obama as flawed.

What worked in the 90' ain't gonna cut it.

It's really ridiculous we don't have Medicare for all.

Things are always changing and always will be and some things stay the same. Obama was never not flawed; no president has not been flawed. Some have flaws bigger than others is all.

As for ridiculous ...not having "Medicare for all" is not an issue of what sort of presidential leadership we've had; it is an issue of what could and could not, can and cannot, get through Congress. You may as well be saying it ridiculous we don't have flying cars for all. It's a fine thing to run on and to aim for but anyone who thinks that any of the current crop would deliver it is seriously deluded ... and really ridiculous.

DSeid 04-22-2019 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MyFootsZZZ (Post 21602193)
... You've got to look out for the kids that probably wouldn't be a enticed vote if it weren't for Bernie 'speaking' to them last election. He broadened the market. ...

I think much more of the younger voter cohort than you do it seems. No, they are not so superficial and they are not voting because some old white guy was "speaking" to them in 2016. They are much smarter than that.

DrDeth 04-22-2019 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aspenglow (Post 21602186)
The only thing I am saying -- not implying -- is that you are ill informed. Educate yourself.

It's simple, really. If Bernie wins the nomination, vote for Bernie. If Biden wins the nomination, vote for Biden.

See how easy this is?

And discuss issues, dont attack other Dems. Except on actually positions, not made up crap.

MyFootsZZZ 04-22-2019 10:23 AM

The flying cars thing is stupid. I live in Western New York and Canadians are afraid of getting sick down here because of the cost of healthcare. It's really not that hard to conceive of a Medicare for all plan when you look at other places. Bernie is trying for Medicare for all, at least he's trying. And I think it's a worthy cause to fight for.

The young voters I know, which is a medium sample size, Are disillusioned and skeptical of insiders. To say that you have more faith in them, you're probably right about that. I even know people that voted for Trump because Bernie was gone.

I wish I agreed with you... But some seem more than willing to let things 'play out' with Trump. I can't say that's a 'dumb' idea. It's playing hardball. They know Democrats will be grudgingly vote for Bernie over Trump if forced to.

Not my style... But "dumb"?

If you ask me, right now, they hold more of the cards.

That's why, (not out of hostility,) I would advise looking for another to beat Bernster.

MyFootsZZZ 04-22-2019 10:39 AM

Another thing. I think many would consider voting for Elizabeth Warren or Tulsi Gabbard.

I like Warren a lot.

Tulsi isn't my thing...

DSeid 04-22-2019 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MyFootsZZZ (Post 21602703)
The flying cars thing is stupid. I live in Western New York and Canadians are afraid of getting sick down here because of the cost of healthcare. It's really not that hard to conceive of a Medicare for all plan when you look at other places. Bernie is trying for Medicare for all, at least he's trying. And I think it's a worthy cause to fight for.

The young voters I know, which is a medium sample size, Are disillusioned and skeptical of insiders. To say that you have more faith in them, you're probably right about that. I even know people that voted for Trump because Bernie was gone.

I wish I agreed with you... But some seem more than willing to let things 'play out' with Trump. I can't say that's a 'dumb' idea. It's playing hardball. They know Democrats will be grudgingly vote for Bernie over Trump if forced to.

Not my style... But "dumb"?

If you ask me, right now, they hold more of the cards.

That's why, (not out of hostility,) I would advise looking for another to beat Bernster.

It is not hard of imagining "Medicare for all" working ... it is delusional to think that "trying" has much to do with delivering. Again, as a campaign pitch it is a fine thing ... but reality is that we are not going to have a Congress that will pass it. It is like candidate Trump promising a wall that Mexico will pay for.

No, "they" really don't hold more of the cards. You both underestimate their smarts, and overestimate their power. 2016 was not lost because younger voters stayed home more than ever and they were not the bulk of Obama-Trump voters. Sanders is no Messiah. He'll need to win their votes again against others also aiming to earn them and also expand his appeal. He might do it but right now he has not been the one consistently at the top of the pack.

You may want to look at someone other than Bernie to beat Biden. :)

MyFootsZZZ 04-22-2019 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DSeid (Post 21602758)
It is not hard of imagining "Medicare for all" working ... it is delusional to think that "trying" has much to do with delivering. Again, as a campaign pitch it is a fine thing ... but reality is that we are not going to have a Congress that will pass it. It is like candidate Trump promising a wall that Mexico will pay for.

No, "they" really don't hold more of the cards. You both underestimate their smarts, and overestimate their power. 2016 was not lost because younger voters stayed home more than ever and they were not the bulk of Obama-Trump voters. Sanders is no Messiah. He'll need to win their votes again against others also aiming to earn them and also expand his appeal. He might do it but right now he has not been the one consistently at the top of the pack.

You may want to look at someone other than Bernie to beat Biden. :)

No matter what health care plan that's brought to the table, people are going to have issue with it. So you might as well try for the one that saves us all money. And treats all people.

Look... I am NOT in the mood to debate right now. But I really do disagree with you.

It's nice hearing your POV, and maybe the kids I know aren't a reflection of kids all over the country. But I'm telling you that, from what I witness and hear, I think Bernie's the best chance at facing Trump. (Right now)

DSeid 04-22-2019 12:08 PM

No debate then!

Just appreciate that an elephant is not a snake despite the fact that the part near you feels just like one. The trunk is important mind you and it is the part of the elephant that makes the most noise, but it still is not what moves or controls the whole thing.

Biden has no chance winning a race of all young voters true. Sanders might win that group and might not. But if he is to be the one to beat Biden he needs to win more than them alone.

RTFirefly 04-23-2019 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DSeid (Post 21602082)
Count me as another who fails to see the “devastating” about his style of politics there.

His style, chummy, bipartisan, comprising, trying to see the good even in people who are in many ways abhorrent, has gotten things done. It is of course fair to argue that you don’t like all the things it has gotten done. The Sanders style alternative of pure positions, few chums, and no compromises, has few less ideal results to complain about ... and nothing of note to tout either. Is it better or worse to have a mixed record of things achieved, or a record of nothing accomplished?

Which is the more effective style?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that's quite an excluded middle you've set up there.

Yes, I believe Biden's chummy style has in fact corrupted the things that he's gotten done. It's hardly worth praising his ability to move the 2005 bankruptcy law through Congress; who knows how many lives would have been better off if it had never been passed? Being chummy with segregationists didn't do black people any good, either, as the article notes.

RTFirefly 04-23-2019 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrDeth (Post 21602040)
Because that's what you do in a eulogy. Only assholes say bad things about the man they were asked to eulogize.

That's what you do in a eulogy, sure. But you get to choose whether to give a eulogy.

I gave the eulogy at my father's funeral. I will not do the same for my mother when she passes. We have choices.

RTFirefly 04-23-2019 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrDeth (Post 21602053)
Because when you say anything nice about a man when you are giving condolences, you of course are condoning every bad thing that person ever did, right?

To quote Malcolm Reynolds, "My days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle."

Bijou Drains 04-23-2019 02:33 PM

When was the last time someone spent almost their entire adult life in DC and then was elected president? LBJ comes close but he was only 56 in 1964. But now people are way more into voting for outsiders.

Thing Fish 04-23-2019 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aspenglow (Post 21602174)
You would do well to review Mueller's report.

I would direct you specifically to pages 23 and 45. The Russians were very busy making Bernie look good and Hillary look bad.

At page 23: By February 2016, Russian instructions to IRA specialists: “Main idea: Use any opportunity to criticize Hillary (Clinton) and the rest (except Sanders and Trump – we support them).”

At page 45: From the GRU: “We think Trump has only a 25% chance of winning against Hillary… so conflict between Bernie and Hillary is interesting.”

I'm sure there is more. I am still reading the full report. You should, too.

What does Russian interference in the 2016 election have to do with the validity of complaints of inappropriate touch against Joe Biden now? :confused:

Thing Fish 04-23-2019 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrDeth (Post 21602563)
And discuss issues, dont attack other Dems. Except on actually positions, not made up crap.

The depth of hypocrisy here is hilarious.

Aspenglow 04-23-2019 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thing Fish (Post 21605075)
What does Russian interference in the 2016 election have to do with the validity of complaints of inappropriate touch against Joe Biden now? :confused:

I was responding to what was said in the post below, and didn't relate it to Joe Biden and his over-familiarity with people. I thought MyFootsZZZ's meaning referred to an idea that Sanders' 2016 campaign wasn't touched by Russian interference. Probably filtered through my brain that way as I had been reading the Mueller report shortly before.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MyFootsZZZ (Post 21602166)
Wat?

Don't bring Russia into this. Vlad didn't put his hands all over people.

<snip>

I see what was meant now, and with that understanding, my response was a complete non sequitur. Sorry about that.

Thing Fish 04-24-2019 12:56 AM

Gotcha. No problem.

But What do you mean about Sanders’ campaign not being “touched by Russian interference”? Granted that the Russians in 2016 supported Sanders, in order to weaken Clinton, in order to achieve their goal of electing Trump. But are you asserting that the Sanders campaign, like the Trump campaign, was in close contact with Russian intelligence agents throughout the campaign, knew about the Russian interference on its behalf, and chose to encourage and welcome said interference rather than reporting it to the FBI? If so, a cite would be appreciated.

RTFirefly 04-25-2019 03:51 AM

Founder of union-busting law firm is helping host Biden's first fundraiser today
Quote:

PITTSBURGH, PA. – On Monday, Vice President Joe Biden intends to launch his presidential campaign at the Teamsters Local 249 in Pittsburgh with United Steelworkers President Leo Gerard appearing alongside him.

However, first, on Thursday, Biden is hosting a $2,800 dollar-a-plate fundraiser at the mansion of Comcast Executive President David Cohen in Philadelphia. Among the dozen select political power players on the host committee for Biden’s 1st fundraiser are Steven Cozen, founder and chairman of the union-busting law firm Cozen O’Connor.

According to Cozen O’Connor website, the firm specializes in union busting advertising that it helps employers to “avoid unionization through positive employee relations and regain nonunion status when employees indicate they no longer wish to be union-represented”.

The firms also boasts on its website that it helps employers to lock out their unionized workforce.
You can't be friends with everybody, Joe. At some point, you've got to choose between the people in the Teamsters and the Steelworkers, and the people who have been working for decades to render those unions impotent.

What Exit? 04-25-2019 05:49 AM

The McCains plan to support Joe Biden against Trump. I thought that was interesting and might help sway some Republican voters. McCain always commanded more respect then most Republicans with independents and even Dems.

asahi 04-25-2019 06:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTFirefly (Post 21608301)
Founder of union-busting law firm is helping host Biden's first fundraiser today
You can't be friends with everybody, Joe. At some point, you've got to choose between the people in the Teamsters and the Steelworkers, and the people who have been working for decades to render those unions impotent.

Biden is generally well regarded by labor organizations like AFL-CIO. If he has a weakness in terms of his voting record, it's probably his coziness with big banks and big corporations.

not what you'd expect 04-25-2019 06:58 AM

Joe had a nice roll out video. I'm not excited about him though, it feels like a repeat of Hilary.

dalej42 04-25-2019 08:39 AM

Wow, I’m staying off Twitter today. The intensity of the anti-Biden brigade is amazing. I’m sure some of it is from Bernie Bros and some is probably from troll farms.

I kinda wish Biden hadn’t ran, his time was 2016. Now we’re in for months of creepy Uncle Joe memes and nonstop talk about that on cable news and the Sunday talk shows.

The one good thing is that I think letting Biden suck up all the oxygen for a while allows Mayor Pete to get out of the spotlight for a bit. I really like Pete but it’s probably time his momentum cools down just a bit. He needs a bit more time to organize a serious campaign and a few less interviews right now.

Jonathan Chance 04-25-2019 08:53 AM

I think it’s time to let this thread fade. He’s in. Take it there. This question is answered.


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