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-   -   Things that you've read/seen that you wish you hadn't? (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=744761)

ArztWolf 12-28-2014 10:06 PM

Things that you've read/seen that you wish you hadn't?
 
Ever read or saw something that you wish you could erase from your mind? Something either soul crushingly depressing, vomit inducingly gross or just plain depraved that would take an Olympic sized pool of brain breach to get rid of? Try and keep it to media related things, not RL experiences.

I sure have.

*When I was 13-14 I got my hands on a horror paperback that was so disturbing I ended up throwing it away. The only thing I remember about it was it was some sort of "Good vs. Evil" fight that I think involved angels and demons. A long drawn out fight between a woman (I think she was a demon) and a man (who was an angel). The woman kept trying to "impale" herself on his "manhood" in mid flight. Also a really graphic scene of a woman being anally gang raped by a demon possessed bikers.

*When I was 17 I saw a video of a Racoon Dog being skinned alive in China. That will never leave me.

*When I was in high school I watched that episode of Master's of Horror about the hunters and the magical raccoons. The one hunters face + the bear trap = nightmares for weeks.

AncientHumanoid 12-28-2014 10:11 PM

Does this thread count? :p

Infovore 12-28-2014 10:12 PM

In 1989 I read an article about the collapse of the Cypress Structure (a freeway in the Oakland area) during the Loma Prieta earthquake. It was one of those in-depth pieces that really tried to get into the heads of the first responders. Part of it mentioned how some of the rescue personnel went down into the space between the upper and lower levels (the upper dropped down onto the lower, held up only by the cars) and saw a brain lying on the ground near one of the cars.

For whatever reason, I just can't get that image out of my head, even after all this time. Some poor person was just trying to commute home, and ended up having their brain popped out of their skull and tossed onto the road.

It's bugging me just thinking about it now. And that's weird, because normally I'm pretty immune to being affected by stuff like that. Maybe it was because it wasn't too far from where I live (I'm in San Jose, and only a few years after that, my commute involved a route that would have taken me over that same structure if it still existed).

TriPolar 12-28-2014 10:15 PM

The ritual scene in A Man Called Horse where the man is suspended by a eagle claws stuck into his chest. I was only 13, it seemed horrific.

Also, merely shocking, but Kathy Bates suddenly appearing nude in At Play in the Fields of the Lord.

jimbuff314 12-28-2014 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TriPolar (Post 18010228)
[...] Also, merely shocking, but Kathy Bates suddenly appearing nude in At Play in the Fields of the Lord.

Holy shit, TriPolar. Now that's something that's going to stay with me until well into the new year. Why do I open threads like this? :(

nearwildheaven 12-28-2014 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TriPolar (Post 18010228)
Also, merely shocking, but Kathy Bates suddenly appearing nude in At Play in the Fields of the Lord.

She did the same thing in "About Schmidt", and I saw it on opening weekend and didn't know the scene was in the movie. It elicited the same response in the audience as the "choking on vomit" scene did the first time I saw "This Is Spinal Tap", also in a theater, and we also didn't know about it. :p

On a more serious note, yesterday I was looking up a music video on You Tube, and in the "Videos You May Like" panel off to the right was a picture of a two-faced baby. :eek: I've also seen anencephalic babies on there too. Not something I want to be surprised with, that's for sure. :( I have no idea why You Tube thought I wanted to see anything like that.

Several of the American Ebola survivors have not minced their words regarding how severe their GI symptoms were. At least two of them have said that they not only blew out their diapers, it ran over the sides of the bed and dripped onto the floor. :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: Even more horrific is that they were conscious and somewhat mobile and knew exactly what was going on. Dr. Crozier, the WHO physician who recently identified himself, said that at one point, he was producing 8 liters of diarrhea a day, so yeah, I could imagine. I'm sure glad that the TV footage from Africa doesn't come with Smell-O-Vision.

Baker 12-28-2014 10:47 PM

Against my better judgement I clicked on a link in a thread here on the Dope, quite some time ago.

The story was about a young South American woman who was part of a campaign against drunk driving, allowing her image to be used.

There was the "before" picture of a gorgeous girl in a bikini, on the beach.

Then there was the link with the picture of her after her car had been struck by a drunk driver, and she'd been burned over her entire body. I will not describe what she looked like afterwards, I just remember pushing myself away from the keyboard in shock.

She was brave enough to let her picture be used, to try and get the point across about the dangers of DUI.

Inna Minnit 12-28-2014 10:59 PM

Seeing people fall/jump out of the twin towers.

Freudian Slit 12-28-2014 11:06 PM

Right after I saw Dressed to Kill, I kind of wished I hadn't (I still consider it one of my fave movies). Still not sure why--something about it I found really upsetting/disturbing, even though I'm generally a suspense/horror/thriller fan. Looking back, I'm glad I saw it, though.

No books come to mind...

madsircool 12-28-2014 11:07 PM

Salo:120 Days of Sodom
Desperate Living

ZipperJJ 12-28-2014 11:16 PM

That journalist who was beheadded. The "first"? one, several years ago.

Also in the middle of an indie film about a day in the life of a bunch of people around the world, they showed a cow being executed at a slaughterhouse. Was not expecting that. Very upsetting.

nearwildheaven 12-28-2014 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inna Minnit (Post 18010310)
Seeing people fall/jump out of the twin towers.

:(

I agree.

I'm glad I didn't see the second plane hit.

AClockworkMelon 12-28-2014 11:18 PM

I've seen videos of beheadings that I probably could have done without.

nearwildheaven 12-28-2014 11:24 PM

Yesterday, I sent a Facebook friend request to an old neighbor who I grew up with, and guess what? My feed is getting spammed with one anti-Obama meme after another. :rolleyes: She's not posting them; she's liking them and they end up on my wall that way, and fortunately I found out how to hide posts from the person who's posting the memes in the first place, so I don't have to hide her.

I have another FBF who's a really militant atheist who was doing that with anti-religious, and specifically anti-Christian, memes - dozens a day, every day. In recent months, she's had limited Internet access (going into more detail could potentially identify her) so I haven't had to deal with it lately.

And while we're on the subject of offensive videos, there's always Tubgirl, Lemon Party, mypetgoatse, and any number of other things that can't be unseen after they're seen. Do not Google any of those on a public or work computer.

Procrustus 12-28-2014 11:39 PM

I think every autopsy photo I've ever had to see is still in my brain.

Guinastasia 12-28-2014 11:48 PM

The Twilight saga.

gigi 12-29-2014 12:22 AM

The scene in American Psycho where he draws a razor blade across the guy's eyeball. That's when I gave up on the book, and I can't bring myself to watch the movie.

Inna Minnit 12-29-2014 12:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZipperJJ (Post 18010337)
That journalist who was beheadded. The "first"? one, several years ago.


Daniel Pearl? Was that his name?

tnetennba 12-29-2014 01:04 AM

if only there were some easy way to find information while online.

chorpler 12-29-2014 01:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArztWolf (Post 18010214)
*When I was 17 I saw a video of a Racoon Dog being skinned alive in China. That will never leave me.

Oh god, that one still haunts me as well. That sadistic fucker
SPOILER:
peeled that poor tanuki's skin off so slowly, and kept standing on its (skinless) neck while it struggled to get away from the agony, but somehow it kept surviving and the film just kept going ON and ON and ON.
Somebody later said that the animal rights activist who filmed it (it was supposed to be "hidden camera" footage) had deliberately staged it, paying the guy to actually skin the animal alive to make the footage more gruesome and shocking, even though normally they kill them first. I could not figure out who to be more appalled with, the guy who actually did the skinning, or the supposed "animal rights" guy who made the whole thing happen.

That wasn't nearly as bad as watching the old man get tortured to death by those three teenagers when somebody OH SO HILARIOUSLY posted a link to "Three guys, one hammer" in a message board thread one time. Things like that make me feel sickened and depressed for about 2-3 weeks, until I can stop thinking about them constantly, and even then they keep popping back into my mind every now and then, like when somebody talks about them.

I have absolutely no problem with violence or gore in books or movies, but when it involves a real live human (or mammal, I guess, given how the tanuki video made me feel), I just absolutely can't handle it.

Well, I guess I don't have absolutely NO problem with violence in books or movies. For instance, Spider Robinson's science fiction book Very Bad Deaths was an awesome story filled with fascinating flashbacks about the main character's years going to college in the 1960's. But because the main plot involved trying to find and stop Allen, the world's most horrific serial killer, and because Spider Robinson did a very effective job of creating Allen, I haven't been able to re-read that book since i first read it 10 years ago, even though I would like to. I just can't put myself through reading about Allen again, knowing that some people really do stuff like that to other people.

Shagnasty 12-29-2014 03:03 AM

Why yes I have and now you can too because they are freely available.

The man who turned into a tree haunted me for years. It is just a very short nonfiction documentary so you can see it for yourself.

For fiction, I nominate Sundays Game. It is just an 8 minute little independent film that contains some of the most realistic acting I have ever seen. It is just about a cute weekend get together of some of the dearest little old ladies friends that you will ever see. Check it out.

thirdname 12-29-2014 03:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shagnasty (Post 18010499)
The man who turned into a tree haunted me for years. It is just a very short nonfiction documentary so you can see it for yourself.

You wouldn't have been so haunted if you had seen the sequel: Human Treeman stops turning into a tree

EmilyG 12-29-2014 06:11 AM

I saw a video of an artist vomiting paint onto a canvas, accompanied by the beautiful "Flower Duet" by Delibes. It was more disgusting than I thought it would be.
That music still sometimes reminds me of the video.

marshmallow 12-29-2014 06:23 AM

The usual stuff -- war photos, surgery footage, and so on. My biggest weakness is eye violence. Even a tame scene like the Kill Bill eye snatch makes me wince and turn my head.

Entertainment wise, Antichrist was a surprise. I heard it was fucked up, but for the most part it was a low key horror drama. There's a scene where the dude's crazy girlfriend is jerking him off, then she hits him in the balls with a giant piece of wood, keeps going, and he ejaculates blood. That made me grit my teeth in empathy pain, but not too bad. Then later on the crazy woman grabbed scissors and gave herself a clitoridecotmy. Snip, snip. Did I mention this film showed full nudity with no cut aways? I guess if you're into knife play it could be pretty hot, but no. Thanks a lot, Lars von Trier.

I don't know the name of the film, but when I was a teen I saw some Vietnam, maybe Korean war movie where the Americans are getting overrun and the planes are bombing very close to their own troops (Broken arrow event I think they called it). One guy got caught in the napalm and his buddies tried to move him. So they grab his legs, but his pants are fused to his skin, and his skin is melting and sloughing off, so the skin slides right off and they can't grab him. UGH. Just thinking about it makes my shins tingle.

Sattua 12-29-2014 06:58 AM

The movie Trainspotting. I thought I would be okay--Fight Club doesn't bother me at all--but no. It's the one media experience of my life that I wish I hadn't had.

WordMan 12-29-2014 07:46 AM

The movie Se7en by David Fincher. I am not interested in being....manipulated...the way that director is seeking to manipulate me. I left the theater thinking, "hey, Fincher - yeah, Fuck You, too. Thanks a lot :("

freckafree 12-29-2014 07:52 AM

Ugh. I couldn't even read chorpler's description of the skinning video. I do not want that staying in my head.

I can't believe no one has mentioned the lotus boob. It doesn't matter that it's fake and everyone knows it's a fake. It's the trypophobia thing. Along the same lines, there's footage of a Surinam toad. I'm sorry I even mentioned these things now.

ArztWolf 12-29-2014 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freckafree (Post 18010690)
Ugh. I couldn't even read chorpler's description of the skinning video. I do not want that staying in my head.

I can't believe no one has mentioned the lotus boob. It doesn't matter that it's fake and everyone knows it's a fake. It's the trypophobia thing. Along the same lines, there's footage of a Surinam toad. I'm sorry I even mentioned these things now.

Yeah, when I first saw the lotus boob I could not get that image out of my head.

Sir T-Cups 12-29-2014 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shagnasty (Post 18010499)
For fiction, I nominate Sundays Game. It is just an 8 minute little independent film that contains some of the most realistic acting I have ever seen. It is just about a cute weekend get together of some of the dearest little old ladies friends that you will ever see. Check it out.

This, this a million times this.

I actually saw this here in a thread that was basically "link to the most disturbing video you can find"

It's so horrifying, and you don't even really SEE anything. Given the context it's less gory than your average Eli Roth slasherporn movie, but still the implications of it

furryman 12-29-2014 10:12 AM

A My little Pony fanfic version of "The Human Caterpillar". Seriously as soon as I saw the title I should have fled like the Flash.

panache45 12-29-2014 10:40 AM

When I was a kid, back in the '50s, on the front page of the newspaper was an article and photo. The photo showed a baby that had been born . . . numerous heads and arms and legs, seemingly arranged randomly. I remember shrieking and running out of the house. Wish I'd never seen that.

CalMeacham 12-29-2014 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by panache45 (Post 18011080)
When I was a kid, back in the '50s, on the front page of the newspaper was an article and photo. The photo showed a baby that had been born . . . numerous heads and arms and legs, seemingly arranged randomly. I remember shrieking and running out of the house. Wish I'd never seen that.

Sounds like standard fare for the National Enquirer back in those days. The NE has become more discrete in recent years, but back in the 1950s and 1960s they went for the grotesque photos of babies and such on the front page in the hopes of persuading folks to pick up their little newspaper.

If it soothes your conscience, I'm pretty sure that their images were constructions and darkroom creations* as much as the "God's hand seen in thunderstorm" or "Batboy" pictures later were.



Quote:

In 1953, Pope revamped the format from a broadsheet to a sensationalist tabloid focusing on sex and violence. The paper's editorial content became so salacious that Griffin was forced by the Mayor to resign from the city's Board of Higher Education in 1954.[6] In 1957, Pope changed the name of the newspaper to The National Enquirer and changed its scope to national stories of sex and scandal.[6] Pope worked tirelessly in the 1950s and 1960s to increase the circulation and broaden the tabloid's appeal. In the late 1950s and through most of the 1960s, the Enquirer was known for its gory and unsettling headlines and stories such as: "I Cut Out Her Heart and Stomped on It" (Sept. 8, 1963) and "Mom Boiled Her Baby and Ate Her" (1962). At this time the paper was sold on newsstands and in drugstores only. Pope stated he got the idea for the format and these gory stories from seeing people congregate around auto accidents. By 1966, circulation had risen to one million.[6]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Enquirer




*They'd have used Photoshop if it had been around then.

pulykamell 12-29-2014 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir T-Cups (Post 18010870)
This, this a million times this.

I actually saw this here in a thread that was basically "link to the most disturbing video you can find"

It's so horrifying, and you don't even really SEE anything. Given the context it's less gory than your average Eli Roth slasherporn movie, but still the implications of it

Thanks for the link. That was awesomely dark and hilarious! Love it. (ETA: or rather, thanks to Shagnasty, but both your descriptions piqued my curiosity.)

Octarine 12-29-2014 11:41 AM

Like most depraved things, it came from the SDMB. ;) Specifically, I lay the blame on MsWhatsit, who linked to a humorous commentary on a really, really awful piece of fanfiction. Was it hilarious? Hell yes. However . . . that mental image of him . . . tearing . . . erg. Brain bleach. Please.

nearwildheaven 12-29-2014 12:03 PM

One of the most disturbing fanfiction pieces I've ever read has the same title as my username. AFAIK, it's no longer online but you might be able to read it on the Wayback Machine, should you be so inclined.

It's about the straight members of R.E.M., Bill, Mike, and Peter, all having sex with each other in every way you could possibly think of. Someone else described it as "unadulterated puke" and that's an excellent summation.

Dustin the Wind 12-29-2014 12:03 PM

A couple of things, sort of. In 1987 when I was hugely pregnant with my first child, I worked at a law firm where my boss occasionally handled personal injury cases. I had just eaten a donut and was going through a file that I was unfamiliar with. I ran across some pictures of an accident victim, horribly mutilated. It was all I could do not to lose my donut.

I don't know if it's still around, but I was on Rotten.com once and ran across some absolutely horrifying shots, each one worse than the one before. It was a very, very long time before I could stop remembering those.

nearwildheaven 12-29-2014 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Procrustus (Post 18010368)
I think every autopsy photo I've ever had to see is still in my brain.

I collect old medical books, and a gynecology book I have from 1908 has a pencil drawing of the perineal area of an 8-month-old baby who had been raped. :eek: It is every bit as horrible as it sounds.

There's a You Tube video made by the military in 1955 about the original hantavirus outbreak; it's about 45 minutes long and has risen in "popularity" since the Ebola outbreak. It has graphic autopsy footage and also clips of victims vomiting blood, and I don't think those were re-enactments. I personally did not find it disturbing, but others might. What WAS disturbing to me was that most of the fatalities were from kidney failure, which at the time was untreatable.

Lemmytheseal2 12-29-2014 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TriPolar (Post 18010228)
The ritual scene in A Man Called Horse where the man is suspended by a eagle claws stuck into his chest. I was only 13, it seemed horrific.

The teachers showed us that movie in middle school.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Baker (Post 18010280)
Against my better judgement I clicked on a link in a thread here on the Dope, quite some time ago.

The story was about a young South American woman who was part of a campaign against drunk driving, allowing her image to be used.

There was the "before" picture of a gorgeous girl in a bikini, on the beach.

Then there was the link with the picture of her after her car had been struck by a drunk driver, and she'd been burned over her entire body. I will not describe what she looked like afterwards, I just remember pushing myself away from the keyboard in shock.

She was brave enough to let her picture be used, to try and get the point across about the dangers of DUI.

Poor, poor Jacqueline Saburido. She's been like that since 1999. She was 20 or so when it happened. I think about her all the time. Her friends in the front seats were killed. The drunk driver did eight years in jail.
Quote:

Originally Posted by madsircool (Post 18010327)
Salo:120 Days of Sodom

I was ready to be shocked and horrified, but I was just bored. I understand what Pasolini was trying to do, and the reasons behind all the awful things happening, but it just provoked little reaction in me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by marshmallow (Post 18010602)
Entertainment wise, Antichrist was a surprise. I heard it was fucked up, but for the most part it was a low key horror drama. There's a scene where the dude's crazy girlfriend is jerking him off, then she hits him in the balls with a giant piece of wood, keeps going, and he ejaculates blood. That made me grit my teeth in empathy pain, but not too bad. Then later on the crazy woman grabbed scissors and gave herself a clitoridecotmy. Snip, snip. Did I mention this film showed full nudity with no cut aways? I guess if you're into knife play it could be pretty hot, but no. Thanks a lot, Lars von Trier.

I did flinch at that. I thought it was a powerful film, all things considered.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sattua (Post 18010626)
The movie Trainspotting. I thought I would be okay--Fight Club doesn't bother me at all--but no. It's the one media experience of my life that I wish I hadn't had.

I love Trainspotting! I've seen it multiple times, and watched clips from it many more times.
Quote:

Originally Posted by WordMan (Post 18010679)
The movie Se7en by David Fincher. I am not interested in being....manipulated...the way that director is seeking to manipulate me. I left the theater thinking, "hey, Fincher - yeah, Fuck You, too. Thanks a lot :("

Same for Se7en!

Zyanthia 12-29-2014 01:27 PM

The scene from the Human Centipede, where the lead guy has to poop, and you can see the agony as he doesn't want to, but the lady behind him had to accept what was coming.

That, or when the doctor was checking out the surgery and found pus and ugh.

chorpler 12-29-2014 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freckafree (Post 18010690)
Ugh. I couldn't even read chorpler's description of the skinning video. I do not want that staying in my head.

I apologize. I should have spoiler-boxed that. :(

gaffa 12-29-2014 03:10 PM

Previous thread.

nearwildheaven 12-29-2014 03:10 PM

People of Walmart.

:p

Need I say more?

ZipperJJ 12-29-2014 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inna Minnit (Post 18010428)
Daniel Pearl? Was that his name?

Yes, Daniel Pearl's execution. My dad really wanted to see it. I had to bring it up for him. I tried not watching it but I ended up seeing it. Ugh.

I've reported chorpler's post to see if we can get it spoilered. Only read the first sentence but I am super bummed because my new dog tries to get away when I grab his neck :( (To put his collar on)

control-z 12-29-2014 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gigi (Post 18010412)
The scene in American Psycho where he draws a razor blade across the guy's eyeball. That's when I gave up on the book, and I can't bring myself to watch the movie.

I'm not sure if that scene was in the movie, I probably would have remembered it. It's a great movie, Christian Bale did a great job.

CalMeacham 12-29-2014 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gigi (Post 18010412)
The scene in American Psycho where he draws a razor blade across the guy's eyeball. That's when I gave up on the book, and I can't bring myself to watch the movie.

There was a famous (infamous?) scene of a sliced eyeball in Luis Bunuel's 1929 film Un Chien Andalou, made with the assistance of Salvador Dali:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Un_Chien_Andalou



The Master Speaks!
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/...l-being-sliced

The film itself:
http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/81401883/

Abracadebra 12-29-2014 04:09 PM

When I was in nursing school, I had a clinical assignment at the hospital. The patient I was assigned had gangrene of the foot. I will never, as long as I live, be able to unsee or unsmell that.

I came upon a head-on accident just after it happened. It was low speed, so no fatalities, but the driver of one car kept screaming that her foot was killing her. I walked over to try to comfort her. The airbag had deployed in her face, so she couldn't see her feet. Her right foot had been snapped away from the leg bone and was hanging by the skin. I just held her until the ambulance came. I've never felt so bad for someone.

While pregnant with my son eighteen years ago, I read a true crime book about Paul Bernardo and Karla Homolka. They were so depraved that I had nightmares about them. I actually threw that book away. I couldn't stand to have it in my house.

mbh 12-29-2014 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by madsircool (Post 18010327)
Salo:120 Days of Sodom

That one tests your commitment to the First Amendment, doesn't it? The disk is sitting on a shelf at home, but I still haven't watched the entire thing. The sex scenes (even the gay sex scenes) are actually pretty tame. And the blood-soaked finale is more comical than horrific. But I can't get through the coprophagia scenes.

Baker 12-29-2014 09:29 PM

Those video clips of people jumping from the WTC towers really disturbed me, because someone I knew, not a friend, said that their actions were suicide, and they'd be in Hell.

I couldn't believe that.I'm pretty devout, but the fear of burning is one of my major terrors. I talked to the priest about it and he assured me that they had not suicided, but simply chosen how they would die. That's a completely different thing. The two people falling while holding hands was the worst. See heights are my other major fear. I think if it came to that I'd jump, because the pain would be over instantly.

grude 12-29-2014 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chorpler (Post 18010454)
Oh god, that one still haunts me as well.

Had to be staged, the animal would have to be killed anyway so there is no point killing it after skinning, would just make it harder.

One that bugged me was a video of illegal sea turtle slaughter for meat, the guy was just cutting off their flippers and leaving the turtles after while making a soup or something, I wanted scream at least behead them or brain them with a rock or something! The fact they were essentially unable to even struggle somehow made it worse. I ran across that one by accident(well I wasn't looking for a video of turtle slaughter) so I'm sure there are much, much worse animal cruelty vids out there.:(

And that one was plausible because the turtles can't struggle.

nearwildheaven 12-29-2014 11:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baker (Post 18012781)
Those video clips of people jumping from the WTC towers really disturbed me, because someone I knew, not a friend, said that their actions were suicide, and they'd be in Hell.

I couldn't believe that.I'm pretty devout, but the fear of burning is one of my major terrors. I talked to the priest about it and he assured me that they had not suicided, but simply chosen how they would die. That's a completely different thing. The two people falling while holding hands was the worst. See heights are my other major fear. I think if it came to that I'd jump, because the pain would be over instantly.

Not a small number of people recognized someone they knew from pictures or TV footage. That's why you don't see that in shows broadcasted nowadays, except from great distances.


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