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-   -   Could a shark live on pastrami only? (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=799352)

Leo Bloom 07-24-2016 06:52 PM

Could a shark live on pastrami only?
 
See query.

For once I'm not going to give the back story on an OP. But there is one.

running coach 07-24-2016 06:55 PM

Why not? It's meat.

Leo Bloom 07-24-2016 08:32 PM

First, the respect for GQ rules is exemplary (i.e., even _my_ fingers were itching to note that they must have CelRay as well.

A friend and I were in the dog park talking about shark defense with magnetic fields, which led to general shark physiology mixed with the perennial dog physiology question (on GQ and elsewhere) "what about vegetables?" ("You could dress like a carrot...")

So that's 1).

And then I wondered about spices and irritants, and the idea of plant and animals toxins to some predators, and then...pepper, salt, and (I got interested here, from my rough knowledge of salting, the salt processing of aquatic animals--and the particular ammonia business of the shark--and sodium nitrate, in massive doses, and the 50% lethal dosage for sharks.

That's 2).

Each--although wise men may differ--a not-insanely stupid question about sharks.

And, for shorthand, pastrami.

ElvisL1ves 07-24-2016 09:23 PM

No rye? No brown mustard? That's just cruel.

Voyager 07-24-2016 11:08 PM

He can, but he gets this urge to stop eating on Yom Kippur.
(Sorry, as we've seen, the jokes just write themselves.)
I wonder what fat does to a shark, to be serious.

Colibri 07-24-2016 11:22 PM

To the best of my knowledge, the LD50 of pastrami for sharks has yet to be determined.

Perhaps the OP should apply for a grant.

gkster 07-25-2016 12:45 AM

About Voyager's concern with what fat does to a shark: they like fat. Seals, which can be 50% fat, form a major part of the shark's diet
http://animals.howstuffworks.com/fis...eat-white2.htm

Chronos 07-25-2016 05:38 AM

The only significant way that pastrami differs from fresh meat is in the salt content, but sharks, being ocean creatures, are used to high concentrations of salt.

jz78817 07-25-2016 06:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by running coach (Post 19502951)
Why not? It's meat.

because carnivorous animals need more than just "meat." you're forgetting that many/most of them consume their entire prey, including the internal organs (which concentrate a lot of vitamins/micronutrients) and the contents of their prey's digestive system.

it's like cats, people hear they're obligate carnivores and think that means they can "only eat meat." which is wrong, they do consume plant matter. they just let their prey partially digest it for them.

Colibri 07-25-2016 11:49 AM

Right. Pastrami will be edible for sharks, but it probably won't provide the complete suite of nutrients that whole prey would. I don't know what if any vitamin requirements sharks have, but some components of meat are going to be degraded by the process of brining.

Leo Bloom 07-25-2016 12:00 PM

Ok, now this might lead to a huge drift-->hijack (I don't want to abandon my sharks), but sharks are fish; I've heard about piranhas, I guess, but for the mild-mannered innumerable inoffensive guppies and their cousins, they need protein, no? Are those fish "herbivores" or what?

Also, as cx to OP: pastrami as served fresh can/will be cured with sodium nitrite, not sodium nitrate, as the curing times are quite short.

Leo Bloom 07-25-2016 12:10 PM

This is full text available on feeding ecology of the lemon shark, with suggestions for other types (species?) of shark.

Research on specifics on their nutrient requirements is cited, but I haven't the time to chase them down, or their online follow ups. Gotta get that grant.

https://www.researchgate.net/profile...9f5a1ddd9d.pdf

dracoi 07-25-2016 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leo Bloom (Post 19504600)
Ok, now this might lead to a huge drift-->hijack (I don't want to abandon my sharks), but sharks are fish; I've heard about piranhas, I guess, but for the mild-mannered innumerable inoffensive guppies and their cousins, they need protein, no? Are those fish "herbivores" or what?

Also, as cx to OP: pastrami as served fresh can/will be cured with sodium nitrite, not sodium nitrate, as the curing times are quite short.

There are plenty of fish that eat algae or other plant material. Heck, there's even a close relative of the piranha (the pacu) that likes to eat fruit and nuts dropped by trees, though they are not strictly herbivores.

Colibri 07-25-2016 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leo Bloom (Post 19504600)
Ok, now this might lead to a huge drift-->hijack (I don't want to abandon my sharks), but sharks are fish; I've heard about piranhas, I guess, but for the mild-mannered innumerable inoffensive guppies and their cousins, they need protein, no? Are those fish "herbivores" or what?

Most fish feed at least partly on animal matter (insects, small crustaceans, etc.). However, there are plenty of herbivorous fish, but of course plants contain protein and minerals as well, just in lower concentrations than in animals.

Leo Bloom 07-25-2016 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Colibri (Post 19504700)
...Most fish feed at least partly on animal matter (insects, small crustaceans, etc.). However, there are plenty of herbivorous fish, but of course plants contain protein and minerals as well, just in lower concentrations than in animals. [Ital added]

1) But some fish, like shark, the protein requirement shifts way the other way? -- Like for us, the (unnatural-evolutionary-speaking) vegetarians among us, who have to eat extra-protein-rich vegetable matter like pulses, etc.?

Qadgop the Mercotan 07-25-2016 12:44 PM

Yes, Leo. Fish are animals. And they're made of protein. I'm not sure what you're asking.

And now that you've edited your post to exclude point 2), I'm really lost.

Colibri 07-25-2016 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leo Bloom (Post 19504726)
1) But some fish, like shark, the protein requirement shifts way the other way? -- Like for us, the (unnatural-evolutionary-speaking) vegetarians among us, who have to eat extra-protein-rich vegetable matter like pulses, etc.?

Herbivores and carnivores have similar requirements for protein. Herbivores just have to eat more (or especially protein-rich) plant material to get it (or else they have to grow slower).

Bill Door 07-25-2016 01:26 PM

Sharks eat fish whole and get minerals from their skeletons. Sharks are cartilaginous, not boney, but I have to assume they require at least some calcium and magnesium. Probably long term it would be bad for the shark's skeleton and nervous system.

Colibri 07-25-2016 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Door (Post 19504864)
Sharks eat fish whole and get minerals from their skeletons. Sharks are cartilaginous, not boney, but I have to assume they require at least some calcium and magnesium. Probably long term it would be bad for the shark's skeleton and nervous system.

Although a shark's skeleton is mostly cartilaginous, it is often partly calcified. They may need less mineral content in their diets than bony fish, but they do need some.

Leo Bloom 07-25-2016 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qadgop the Mercotan (Post 19504747)
Yes, Leo...

And now that you've edited your post to exclude point 2), I'm really lost.

:eek: or :mad: or :o or :p

Either way, no fair!

Leo Bloom 07-25-2016 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Colibri (Post 19504837)
Herbivores and carnivores have similar requirements for protein. Herbivores just have to eat more (or especially protein-rich) plant material to get it (or else they have to grow slower).

Huh. Never seen that so concisely and clearly put.

panache45 07-25-2016 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jz78817 (Post 19503761)
because carnivorous animals need more than just "meat." you're forgetting that many/most of them consume their entire prey, including the internal organs (which concentrate a lot of vitamins/micronutrients) and the contents of their prey's digestive system.

it's like cats, people hear they're obligate carnivores and think that means they can "only eat meat." which is wrong, they do consume plant matter. they just let their prey partially digest it for them.

Of course a shark needs more than just meat. That's where the seeded rye and mustard come in. And a dill pickle. Gotta have a pickle. And don't forget some cole slaw and a Cel-Ray. Or perhaps and egg cream. The sharks will be begging for more.

Qadgop the Mercotan 07-25-2016 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leo Bloom (Post 19504916)
:eek: or :mad: or :o or :p

Either way, no fair!

If that's how you feel about honest attempts to answer your questions, I'll remember that before answering your questions in the future.

swampspruce 07-25-2016 02:26 PM

Of course not; they'd suffocate waiting in line for their sandwich. Even so, would they eat the pickle, too?

Leo Bloom 07-25-2016 02:30 PM

Wait, it was friendly!!!!

I posted it that way because God knows my posts/mind/questions are confused to begin with, and by editing my rough draft within the time window, I tried to clear away another part of intellect-query backstory, which even I thought was either too stupid in context of more important question, or side-tracking, or just simply wrong-- all of which I decided was in my (now)-infamous and unrecorded Point 2).

That's all...

I wouldn't have posted snark in response to you.


ETA: to Qadgop #23 above.

Channing Idaho Banks 07-25-2016 02:37 PM

A planet made entirely of pastrami?

Qadgop the Mercotan 07-25-2016 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leo Bloom (Post 19505069)
in my (now)-infamous and unrecorded Point 2).

But deep beneath the sea of the Planet of the Zwilniks, Qadgop the Mercotan records and remembers . . .

Very well. I will perchance ponder your future queries. IF it so amuses me.

Boyo Jim 07-25-2016 03:49 PM

KNOCK KNOCK!
"Who's there?"
"Salami Shark!"
"Oh, thank goodness, I only have pastrami. One moment ..."

Duh Dum Duh Dum Duh Dum ...

BigT 07-26-2016 01:58 AM

Seems to me the question is a matter of calculating the nutrients available in pastrami, and comparing them with the nutrients required for sharks. The former is easy to find, so we need someone to post about the latter.

To get that started, I will posit that a shark probably has the same nutritional requirements that we do except that they may make things within themselves that we don't make, or not make things we do make. So perhaps looking at that would be useful.

For example, do they make Vitamin C? not a lot of that in Pastrami. But a lot of animals do, even though we don't. If they don't, either, then pastrami would not work.

eulalia 07-26-2016 02:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigT (Post 19506557)
Seems to me the question is a matter of calculating the nutrients available in pastrami, and comparing them with the nutrients required for sharks. The former is easy to find, so we need someone to post about the latter.

To get that started, I will posit that a shark probably has the same nutritional requirements that we do except that they may make things within themselves that we don't make, or not make things we do make. So perhaps looking at that would be useful.

For example, do they make Vitamin C? not a lot of that in Pastrami. But a lot of animals do, even though we don't. If they don't, either, then pastrami would not work.

That's what the banana peppers are for.

Leo Bloom 07-26-2016 08:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigT (Post 19506557)
Seems to me the question is a matter of calculating the nutrients available in pastrami, and comparing them with the nutrients required for sharks. The former is easy to find, so we need someone to post about the latter.

To get that started, I will posit that a shark probably has the same nutritional requirements that we do except that they may make things within themselves that we don't make, or not make things we do make. So perhaps looking at that would be useful.

For example, do they make Vitamin C? not a lot of that in Pastrami. But a lot of animals do, even though we don't. If they don't, either, then pastrami would not work.

See post #12. Have at it...

Qadgop the Mercotan 07-26-2016 10:04 AM

Whole thread has turned into a shark sandwich . . .

;)

Leo Bloom 07-26-2016 10:16 AM

Openfaced Mako, when quoted uncited.

Qadgop the Mercotan 07-26-2016 10:36 AM

I was thinking of the album by Spinal Tap . . .

Colibri 07-26-2016 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qadgop the Mercotan (Post 19507262)
I was thinking of the album by Spinal Tap . . .

Silent But Deadly would also fit...

Leo Bloom 07-26-2016 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qadgop the Mercotan (Post 19507165)
Whole thread has turned into a shark sandwich . . .

;)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Leo Bloom (Post 19507193)
Openfaced Mako, when quoted uncited.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qadgop the Mercotan (Post 19507262)
I was thinking of the album by Spinal Tap . . .



Openfaced Mako (Hammerhead, 1980): Bootleg album. Outtakes from Shark Sandwich sessions, including studio banter. Includes never-released XXX version of "Sex Farm."
cite: http://www.spinaltapfan.com/atozed/TAP00381.HTM

Leo Bloom 07-26-2016 11:45 AM

Also standard offering on Trinidad. Article and sample recipe: http://www.caribjournal.com/2013/08/...h-in-trinidad/

squidfood 07-26-2016 11:51 AM

For my grad school work, I studied salmon food chains in the open ocean. There's a species of shark called - the Salmon Shark - whose diet for large amounts of time is, you guessed it, salmon. These salmon (large adult salmon - the sharks follow the returning runs) feed mainly on squid, and the squid feed mainly on crustaceans - krill and copepods - and finally those crustaceans feed on phytoplankton.

So the Salmon Sharks are 3 jumps from plants, so not a lot of direct "pre-digested" plant consumption going on. They eat the whole salmon of course. While I don't know their nutrient requirements, if nothing else, they get a good dose of carotenoids that way.

Leo Bloom 07-26-2016 12:18 PM

Username--grad school suggests this topic is your bread and butter.

Qadgop the Mercotan 07-26-2016 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leo Bloom (Post 19507469)
Openfaced Mako (Hammerhead, 1980): Bootleg album. Outtakes from Shark Sandwich sessions, including studio banter. Includes never-released XXX version of "Sex Farm."
cite: http://www.spinaltapfan.com/atozed/TAP00381.HTM

Gotta get me that version of "Sex Farm"!!

Locate a copy for me and I'll even think of you in terms of Leopold instead of Leo. :cool:

misling 07-26-2016 03:19 PM

This phrase farther up the thread caught my eye:
"mild-mannered innumerable inoffensive guppies "
I distinctly remember that my guppies, while they lived on fish food, would eat smaller fishes (such as baby guppies) whenever opportunity offered.

astro 07-26-2016 05:11 PM


Dietary metal and macro-nutrient intakes of juvenile lemon sharks determined from the nutritional composition of prey items

squidfood 07-26-2016 09:03 PM

"Macro" nutrients means the big bulk categories - protein, fats, & carbs. The vitamin question isn't addressed in there though. Overall, they need more or less the same complement of vitamins that we do.

Bony (non-shark) fish mostly don't synthesize vitamin C, and I thought the same true of sharks; however the below article tells us that "primitive" fishes including sharks and lampreys DO synthesize vitamin C: Ascorbate synthesis in fishes: A review. I didn't know that!

Beyond that, I'm finding many references that fish (in aquaculture) are best grown with fish meal and fish oil, as this is the "right blend of nutrients", but not any hard quantification for sharks - pastrami is likely missing a few that they get through diets... I also learned that bottled phytoplankton is a woo health supplement at $30/1oz bottle... forget the pastrami, the sharks are getting the expensive stuff already.

Princhester 07-26-2016 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by panache45 (Post 19504965)
Of course a shark needs more than just meat. That's where the seeded rye and mustard come in. And a dill pickle. Gotta have a pickle. And don't forget some cole slaw and a Cel-Ray. Or perhaps and egg cream. The sharks will be begging for more.

And the person who made them the sammich.

AnalogSignal 07-26-2016 11:59 PM

What a bizarre question. Sharks love corned beef and knishes but never eat pastrami.

MacLir 07-27-2016 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dracoi (Post 19504661)
There are plenty of fish that eat algae or other plant material. Heck, there's even a close relative of the piranha (the pacu) that likes to eat fruit and nuts dropped by trees, though they are not strictly herbivores.

Is that the one that at least in jungle legend bites "nuts"? :eek:

dracoi 07-27-2016 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MacLir (Post 19509703)
Is that the one that at least in jungle legend bites "nuts"? :eek:

I hadn't heard of that, but Wikipedia does have section claiming that it's a false rumor: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacu#I...esticle-biting

They do eat tree nuts, though.

Leo Bloom 07-27-2016 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Princhester (Post 19509136)
And the person who made them the sammich.

Apparently not:
DO SHARKS REALLY NOT LIKE HOW HUMANS TASTE?
http://www.todayifoundout.com/index....ly-like-taste/

Man the Serens keep a'Dipping on this topic. Uncanny. (Tuna joke not intended.)

Thuringwethil 07-27-2016 12:35 PM

I believe this thread has jumped the shark! :D

Bill Door 07-27-2016 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leo Bloom (Post 19510092)
Apparently not:
DO SHARKS REALLY NOT LIKE HOW HUMANS TASTE?
http://www.todayifoundout.com/index....ly-like-taste/

Man the Serens keep a'Dipping on this topic. Uncanny. (Tuna joke not intended.)

That's true according to the local chamber of commerce. Every time somebody gets bitten by a shark they come out with a press release about "investigatory bites". You see, the poor sharks have limited tools to explore their environments with, and most of those tools turn out to be teeth.


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