Is it possible to be both a goth and a Christian?

[StanDup]

Is it possible to be both a goth and a Christian? I am a very confused person. Don't kill me.

[Ringo]

Well, what is there about being goth that conflicts with Christianity?

[StanDup]

So I guess you can?

[Mangetout]

What exactly does being a goth involve nowadays? If there's something in there about blaspheming the Holy Spirit, or spitting on Bibles, then there it might be a tough line to tread, but if it is just about dressing in black and sitting about looking pale and undernourished, then it might be a bit easier.

Seriously, what does 'being a goth' actually entail?

[tomndebb]

Of course, some of the most wonderful cathedrals in Europe are Gothic and prior to around 1970, a priest who did not want to die of heat prostation while celebrating mass in August would often choose a Gothic chasuble (rather than the full-covering and enormously heavy Dalmation style).

Seems to me that there is room for goth in Christianity.

[penny dreadful]

Okay, not helpful, but this is the first thing I thought of when I read the thread title:

Jesus was Gother than You.

Seriously, though, I see no conflict. I've had a couple of friends who identified themselves as both goth and Christian.

[Forbin]

Sorry Topaz, I know you mean well, but you sorta hit my pet peeve here.
"Goth" also known as Gothic is a quintessentially Christian style.
Good grief, this bugs the dickens outta me!
Boys and girls with dyed hair are not "goth"
Notre Dame Cathedral is Goth(ic), and how!
The myriad symbols of Gothic architecture are fundimentally Christian.
<ahem>
I gotta switch to decaf

[Terrifel]

Certainly.

[Nocturne]

Yes. But I'm more than a little curious to know what you think "goth" entails.

[clayton_e]

It happened.. In my town. I do have an odd town, though.

It was a group of teens that eventually ended up breaking apart. I know one or two of them well.. They don't make reference to their "goth/christian" years much.

[astro]

Some say yes, sort of

- ChristianGoth.com

"statement of faith"

i serve the God of abraham, issac, and jacob, the God who is known as YHWH, and He is my Father. His son, Jesus the Christ, is my king and my master. all that i do, i do in His service.

this page was created with the intent of providing a haven for people who have found the Truth through the Messiah Yeshua (Jesus Christ). some may call me a Christian, a word which has many contrary meanings in the modern world. a word which leaves a bitter sting in the mouth of many non Believers.

unfortunately, the true message of Salvation is usually obscured by the haze of hate emanating from the mouths of infidels, second to only the hypocrisy that is so evident in many Christian's lives. this kind of false testimony has been very damaging. one of my greatest aims in life is to show non-Believers that the Truth behind the Christian religion is Christ Himself, not the Church or other "Christians."

and some say no -

A youth subculture

Unlike some youth subcultures that believe in God but reject organized religion, goths often reject God but keep religious trappings, Hart said. Most religious goths are self-styled practitioners of Wicca, an ancient Celtic nature religion, he said, while others dabble in spiritualism, a religion that tries to communicate with the dead through seances.

I am primarily an athiest, but having met numerous Goths and discussed philosophy and religion at length with some of them, it strikes me the mean 'ol gospel.com definition above "A youth subcluture" is probably closer to the real world mark for most Goths, though certainly not all. To the extent that "Goth" for someone is simply a music, fashion and lifestyle preference the answer is yes to compatibility if being a Goth does not conflict with the central pillars of Christianity (ie God-Jesus-New testament narrative etc).

To the extent that Goth's (or anyone) wants to pick and choose and start blending alternative spiritual authorities with the Christian model of faith the answer is that it is incompatible and non-Christian.

[tomndebb]

Good grief, this bugs the dickens outta me!

So, you're proposing omitting The Mystery of Edwin Drood from the canon?

[BigNik]

Depends on what you mean by 'goth', as everyone else has said.

The modern gothic culture (as opposed to the Northern Germanic one of the first centuries AD) is centred around a mindset projecting that life is meaningless and painful, that hope is futile and that depression and ennui are to be reveled in.

The only part of that which can really mesh neatly with Christianity is that life is pain - and you're expected to believe that there's a better one around the corner.

So no, fundamentally they're not really all that compatible.

[Doomtrain]

Prolly depends if you're in it for the fabulous clothes and makeup or the angst, ya know?

[Marley23]

Most religious goths are self-styled practitioners of Wicca, an ancient Celtic nature religion

An SD column from 1999 dispels the myth that Wicca is even remotely ancient - it's a 20th-century invention. Not too important, just interesting in my opinion.

[Loneraven]

Originally posted by GMRyujin
Prolly depends if you're in it for the fabulous clothes and makeup or the angst, ya know?

I agree with this! I love clothes and accessories that could be called "goth" - ie, I have a black leather trench coat, lots of spiky jewellery and a dog collar, but it's just a style, isn't it? I happen to like clothes that have this sort of appearance, and I happen to like some music that could be considered "goth", but that's all it is.

Religion-wise, I'm an agnostic, but I don't think it would have made much difference if I were a Christian.

[RickJay]

Well, first of all, Wicca is not an "ancient nature religion." It's a recent innovation that adopts some of its tenets from a variety of animist/pagan/nature-faith sources. Television is older than Wicca.

Secondly, asking if you can be Christian and Goth is like asking if you can be Christian and a hockey fan. "Goth" isn't a religion, it's basically a pretty awful style of dress combined with teenaged poetry, white makeup, and a particular style of music. Unless wearing black clothing's prohibited in the Bible, I don't see a lot of conflict there.

I don't think that on your Day of Judgment, God is going to be all that concerned about what clothes you wore.

[Lissla Lissar]

It's interesting that the goth subculture is the only one I can think of right now which borrows heavily from the symbols and metaphors of Christianity. I know it's because the goth movement is supposed to be partially for historically interested types, but it interesting that in such a secularized age, where so few young people know anything about Western religious tradition, that goth-ism depends so heavily on a religion which most goths purport to despise.

Having said that (and it was a terrible sentence. Sorry) I personally know four goth-type Christians: me, my husband, and a couple of my friends. We listen to goth music, wear black, purple, leather and vinyl, and go to goth clubs. We're all religiously conservative. We don't see any contradiction, because we fundamentally disagree with some of the philosophy, but enjoy certain elements of being goth. So we take the parts we like, and stand ready to debate about the parts we don't. If it makes us "cafeteria goths" that's fine with me.

I'll write more later- got to get to work.

[Smartlady]

Originally posted by Loneraven
I love clothes and accessories that could be called "goth" - ie, I have a black leather trench coat, lots of spiky jewellery and a dog collar, but it's just a style, isn't it? I happen to like clothes that have this sort of appearance, and I happen to like some music that could be considered "goth", but that's all it is.

Okay, I was listening to this show on Yes Fm (radio station- fm- 98.3) Called Dawson McAllister live. They talk about issues concerning teenagers. One of the topics were, "Can you dress like Britney Spears and still have a relationship with God?" Short answer is no. Any style is the work of the devil. If your gothic, your following a trend, with is bad. You can't follow trends and still have any relationship with God.

[Smartlady]

Sorry, I ment 89.3, not 98.3 :-P

[Medea's Child]

It depends on how you are a goth and how you are a Christian. Both can be pretty flexable definitions.

[Baldwin]

"Gothic" architecture has nothing to do with the Goths; it's just a label somebody came up with in a recent century.

I've read that when the Goths controlled Italy, they were religiously tolerant, which of course pissed some people off.

[RickJay]

Originally posted by Smartlady
Okay, I was listening to this show on Yes Fm (radio station- fm- 98.3) Called Dawson McAllister live. They talk about issues concerning teenagers. One of the topics were, "Can you dress like Britney Spears and still have a relationship with God?" Short answer is no. Any style is the work of the devil. If your gothic, your following a trend, with is bad. You can't follow trends and still have any relationship with God.

Umm... and you laughed at such brazen idiocy, right?

[tomndebb]

"Gothic" architecture has nothing to do with the Goths

I buhlieve thet was what's known as a joke, son.



The link from the early tribes invading Europe to the current alternative fashion scene tends to have followed the following path (presented in schematic form that necessarily introduces errors to the narrative):

People named Goth invade Europe, irritating many people.
Later, a style of architecture arose in the North that, in its earlier forms, was regarded as ugly by the people to the South who dubbed it Gothic as though it was barbaric.
The Gothic style matured and advanced, however, to the point where it actually achieved a true beauty.
Eventually, that style moved out of the public buildings and into private dwellings.
Later still, the private dwellings came to be viewed as old fashioned (as, of course, they were by then) and, in the nineteenth century, several novels were written with such "Gothic" dwellings as locations. The novels were frequently set in gloomy surroundings with plots that matched the gloom and the term Gothic was then applied to that style of writing.
More recently, the clothing fashion (accompanied, to a certain extent, by the trappings of lifestyle) borrowed the gloomy and colorless atmosphere of the novels (and some movies based on those novels) and came to be called goth.

So, there is and is not a connection between the architecture and the current clothing.

[astro]

Originally posted by tomndebb
I buhlieve thet was what's known as a joke, son.



The link from the early tribes invading Europe to the current alternative fashion scene tends to have followed the following path (presented in schematic form that necessarily introduces errors to the narrative):

People named Goth invade Europe, irritating many people.
Later, a style of architecture arose in the North that, in its earlier forms, was regarded as ugly by the people to the South who dubbed it Gothic as though it was barbaric.
The Gothic style matured and advanced, however, to the point where it actually achieved a true beauty.
Eventually, that style moved out of the public buildings and into private dwellings.
Later still, the private dwellings came to be viewed as old fashioned (as, of course, they were by then) and, in the nineteenth century, several novels were written with such "Gothic" dwellings as locations. The novels were frequently set in gloomy surroundings with plots that matched the gloom and the term Gothic was then applied to that style of writing.
More recently, the clothing fashion (accompanied, to a certain extent, by the trappings of lifestyle) borrowed the gloomy and colorless atmosphere of the novels (and some movies based on those novels) and came to be called goth.

So, there is and is not a connection between the architecture and the current clothing.

Gosh Tom, James Burke should be jealous.

[elfkin477]

Originally posted by BigNik
as opposed to the Northern Germanic one of the first centuries AD

<hijack>
Does anyone else think that they ought to have made the Goths in Titus (the Hopkins version)look goth in the modern sense of the word? It was an sureal and abstract movie to begin with, so it wouldn't have clashed. </hijack>

If a person with a mullet (Mullets for Jesus!) can be christan surely a goth can too. Now, people who wear those backless sneakers, I'm not so sure about...

[Guinastasia]

Yeah, but would they be the Ostrogoths or the Visigoths?

[Forbin]

Quoting tomndebb
was regarded as ugly by the people to the South who dubbed it Gothic as though it was barbaric."

That would be Giorgio Vasari.

[Nocturne]

[i]Originally posted by Smartlady
Okay, I was listening to this show on Yes Fm (radio station- fm- 98.3) Called Dawson McAllister live. They talk about issues concerning teenagers. One of the topics were, "Can you dress like Britney Spears and still have a relationship with God?" Short answer is no. Any style is the work of the devil. If your gothic, your following a trend, with is bad. You can't follow trends and still have any relationship with God.

Um...with all due respect, EVERYONE follows one trend or another. Whether you wear boot-cut jeans or straight-legged, skirts, use mosturizing lotion, cut your hair, don't cut your hair because of God, buy the latest study Bible or stick with the King James version, you're following a trend of some kind.

Also, do you believe everything you hear on the radio? No offense meant, but I'm familiar with Dawson McAllister, and while he's nowhere near what I'd call dangerous, I still wouldn't give all his words infallibility.

[hazel-rah]

The modern use of goth refers chiefly to a musical offshoot of punk (one might argue goth is a revisionist history of some punk bands and the most canonical goth bands didn't think of themselves as such... wanting to be a "goth band" came later). From the fans of the music came the fashion (although it probably would have happened anyway), and ever since the early 80's it's been a self-sustaining thing. Goth is as goth does. Plenty of them are Christian... ideologically goth is pretty empty since it's mainly about music and fashion.

[Lissla Lissar]

Sometimes it's about wanting to be a vampire, too. Or really thinking they are vampires. Those people are pretty sad.

[Guinastasia]

Yeah, I saw some guy on SciFi talking about how he drank blood and stuff. I just rolled my eyes.

[butter pie]

And people wonder why I get so annoyed when someone tries to tell me I'm a Goth.

[Doomtrain]

You guys are just jealous because you're not 800 years old, like me...

Hang on, my mom's calling me.

[SnoopyFan]

I'm genuinely surprised that Dawson McAllister said that.

I used to go to his conferences as a teenager, he was great.

Anyhow, Topaz, there is no such thing as a "normal" or "average" Christian. We come from all walks of life. Who has a better chance of reaching the Goth community for Jesus ... you, or your run of the mill Christian who doesn't even know what a Goth IS?

[Doomtrain]

Jesus was Gother than ALL of you.

[Mercury]

Well, I'm a Christian, but I sure as heck love Marilyn Manson, The Sisters of Mercy, black clothes, black eyeliner, and read Poe like there's no tomorrow.

I also have highlighted blonde hair, long acrylic nails and I love to shop at Express. I think you can be pretty much anything you want.

-M

[Pixelle]

It definately depends on the individual enterpretation of goth.

About 15 years ago I was probably what most people would recognize now as goth. I looked like a goth with the seemingly compulsory wardrobe full of black clothes but more important than the clothes, for me it was more about the music and the lifestyle.

Basically it was a lifestyle of negativity and an unhealthy obsession with death and the dark side. It had very little to do with christianity. In fact just mentioning the 'C' word to me was like holding up a cross to a vampire. There's no way in the world I would have thought you could be a goth christian.

But being a goth doesn't have to entail all that dark stuff. It's whatever it means to you and if that involves being a goth that believes in christianity then so be it! And don't listen to anyone else trying to tell you otherwise.

Actually thinking about it, if I'd have been a christian myself at the time it may have been a good buffer against all the negativity and probably done me some good....who knows

[UnwrittenNocturne]

Hmm..I am I guess 'goth'. And have been since the early 80's. I have met people who would call themselves Christian (usually Catholic) who are Goths.

Frankly, religion has little to no bearing on your choice of fashion or music. I hope.

Lifestyle-wise, you wold probably get as many answers as there are people who dress in black. Hell of a lot of dancing though And for many, a rejection of what can be seen as the hypocrisy of values in todays society.

"To thine own self be true"