Faggot term

[bing]

I have also read that a faggot is a young pupil in a British public school who's required to perform certain menial tasks and submit to the hazing of an older pupil, and have wondered if the homosexual referencing may have in some way had its source in this.

[Jabba]

Such a person is referred to as a 'fag', never, in my experience, a 'faggot'.

[UncleBeer]

This thread is referring to the Staff Report linked in today's Straight Dope e-mail:
http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mfaggot.html

I'm moving it to the proper forum.

[Irishman]

Jabba, is "fag" not short for "faggot"?

[Caslan]

Regarding the column about the term faggot referring to gay men, I wonder if the missing link might be found in the concept of hindrance. I.E., the heretic having to carry the bundle of sticks > schoolboys having to do grunge work for upperclassmen > a ball busting woman > a spoiled or demanding child, then, upon entering the gay realms, an annoyingly shrill or flamboyant gay man, AKA Little Richard or Richard Simmons. (Well, they're both shrill and they both annoy me, at any rate.) I don't know why it is, but for some reason when I hear the term fag, as opposed to faggot, what immediately comes to my mind is the term `fagged out', British slang for being tired or exhausted.
In the gay communities that I'm familiar with, meaning American gay men, the worst insults are to refer to the target using terms generally reserved for women. I don't recall ever hearing a gay man insult another gay man without using the term `she' to refer to the target. The C word is often used, and of course `Bitch' is almost universal. (Which, as a woman, pisses me off no end, but that's for another thread entirely) So my theory, which is all of five minutes old and born of reading the column, is that men in the gay community referred to those who annoyed them as faggots in reference to a demanding woman and when the term leaked to the straight community, it eventually began to be applied to all gay men to the point that it began to refer to them exclusively and eventually became entirely pejorative.
As I said, it's a theory I came up with while reading the column and I'm sure there's plenty of holes in it. I look forward to having it ripped apart by the Teeming Millions to see where I've gone wrong.

[Jabba]

Irishman: In British English, 'fag' had two meanings that I can think of. One is the junior pupil who had to perform menial tasks for a senior pupil at certain schools. The other is a slang word for a cigarette. I have never heard 'faggot' used for either of these.

'Faggot' also had two principal meanings ( checking Chambers dictionary, I see a few others I've never seen used): a bundle of sticks for fuel, and the meat food product that caused such amusement on these boards recently.

More recently, the American word 'faggot', and its abbreviation 'fag', derogatory terms for a male homosexual, have entered British slang through US films and TV shows. They are words here which are recognised and understood rather than used ( British queer-bashers preferring home-grown insults).

[Exapno Mapcase]

A Dictionary of English Slang has this to say:

Noun. 1. A cigarette.
2. A homosexual male. Its use isn't prevalent in Britain. Abb. of 'faggot'. Derog. [Orig. U.S.]
3. A chore. E.g."It was a fag having to drive all the way back home at night."

It agrees that it was originally American.

[Mister Rik]

The Italian name for a bassoon is "faggoto" because the instrument resembles a bundle of sticks...

I remember when I played the bassoon in high school and college, I would occasionally get handed a piece of music that was labelled "faggot" instead of "bassoon".

[tareo77]

in a america we refer to very effemiate gay men as flamers or flaming fags. Is this the connection to the burning bundle of sticks??

[Marley23]

Is this the connection to the burning bundle of sticks??

Surely not, since we know that the term 'faggot' as slang for gays is older than that. (See above.)

I can't cite it, but I bet the term "flamer" and is much newer.

[Sampiro]

I always assumed that "fag" came from an Englishman at some point and referred to the junior classmen. Buggery in boarding schools (English and otherwise) is legendary, so a Best Boy's "fag" would very likely have to polish things other than his shoes upon occasion. Seems logical.


[hijack]I've read several theories of origin on the word "drag" in the transvestitism sense. One theory is that it originated in ancient Greece where sex offenders were castrated by having their testicles "drug" out with a device called a "spao" (literal meaning: drag) and that from this moment on they had to dress in women's or in gender neutral clothing and were known as a "spao", or drag-man. This seems unlikely as it means the word would have to survive numerous translations and thousands of years.
Another is that it refers to the hem of a dress dragging the ground, but that one also doesn't quite work as most drag queens don't wear flowing gowns and more women have worn them through the years by far than men. Anybody have any other theories?
[/hijack]

[ckondek]

Actually, that's what I read. If you ref. some Victorian literature you will find that under-classmen that "fagged"* for upper-classmen were often sexually abused by them; hence, "fag" and "faggot" came to mean a young man who was sexually assaulted by his superior. Actually thought this was pretty obvious and have read it in text books on Victorian Lit. before.


*You "fagged" for the upper-classman because one of your tasks was keeping the stove in his room fed with faggots.

[lizard_queen]

i read all of this and just can't help myself. the term faggot would have been used on a ball bustin wife because of what the term means.....lets all go back to Aesops fables. the old man and his two sons. ....... a bundle of sticks, or faggot, is hard to break.

so the term came about for women because they didn't always do what their husbands wanted. therefore i can easily conclude as how the word faggot can be used on a woman or small child. they display the properties of a bundle of sticks.

[Biffy the Elephant Shrew]

Originally posted by Phase42
The Italian name for a bassoon is "faggoto" because the instrument resembles a bundle of sticks...

Bassoonist (and P.D.Q. Bach creator) Peter Schickele says it's because most people who attempt to learn the instrument end up using it as firewood.

I remember when I played the bassoon in high school and college, I would occasionally get handed a piece of music that was labelled "faggot" instead of "bassoon".

Probably "Fagot," which is the German word.

Meanwhile, samclem mentions the Yiddish faygeleh, noting "the claim that the word was commonly used in Yiddish prior to WWII to indicate a homosexual." I've certainly seen the word used to mean a gay man in much more recent writing, although I couldn't discount the possibility that that usage was influenced by the American "faggot" rather than the other way around.

[PStamler]

The use of "fag" as slang for cigarette in the USA didn't stop in the 1940s. When I was at college in 1967-68, the upperclassman down the hall talked about coming home for vacation and finding his high-school-age brother "with a beer in his hand and a fag hangin' from his mouth".

As for "flamer", it's a pretty new term, yes, but "flaming faggot" goes back at least to the 1960s.

I've always wondered whether the phallic image of a bundle of sticks might be connected with the popularity of the term.

[Knorf]

Originally posted by Phase42
The Italian name for a bassoon is "faggoto" because the instrument resembles a bundle of sticks...

I remember when I played the bassoon in high school and college, I would occasionally get handed a piece of music that was labelled "faggot" instead of "bassoon".

Italian: Fagotto
German: Fagott
French: Basson

Since an awful lot of music has been printed in Germany (or German-speaking countries) and Italy, not to mention written by German-seaking or Italina composers,Italian and German words for bassoon are commonly found on scores and parts, especially in orchestral music. Some American publishers merely reprint originals, thereby keeping the German or Italian terms.

Knorf
(a bassoonist)

[akrako1]

I'd heard that the origins of the term 'Faggot' lay in the term 'Faggoting' - a sewing term. I seem to remember it means something along putting some lace on a seam. Cecil didn't mention this term as a possible sorce. Anyone have any history on this?

[Marley23]

Depends on how old the sewing term is. If the sewing term and the "bundling" thing have the same origin, it's sort of redundant.

[samclem]

I'd heard that the origins of the term 'Faggot' lay in the term 'Faggoting' - a sewing term. I seem to remember it means something along putting some lace on a seam. Cecil didn't mention this term as a possible sorce. Anyone have any history on this?

Cecil probably didn't mention it because I wrote the article(nice to be thought of in the same stratosphere, though ).

The OED cites a "faggot-stitch" in 1903 as a sewing term.

I'm not sure how that would have lead to homosexual males being referred to as "faggots" ---unless that was the common stitch used to make dresses for a transvestite ball in the US.

[pcroughn]

I had learned that the term 'faggot' as applied to homosexuals was connected to the pratice of burning at the stake.

When heritics were burned, accused homosexuals were added to the fuel (wood) as the whole thing was assembled or thrown on afterward. It was thought that gay men were not as deserving, as say, a witch, who would be in the center of the spectacle.

Since the fuel was bundles of wood called 'faggots', the term applied to the men who were used as such.

From: http://www.bctf.ca/publications/SJ-I...002-12-01.html

"During the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, the burning of suspected of being witches was common practice. As the fires raged, men suspected of being homosexuals were thrown onto the pyres (to make the flames burn more fiercely) along with faggots of wood."

[samclem]

pcroughn said

"During the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, the burning of suspected of being witches was common practice. As the fires raged, men suspected of being homosexuals were thrown onto the pyres (to make the flames burn more fiercely) along with faggots of wood."

That site from which the quote was taken is rather poorly written, although they do quote Geoge Chauncey's book a bit later about the origins of the word "gay."

They start out their discussion by saying

Some people believe that the use of the epithet “faggot” for a gay man began as far back as the fourteenth century, with the medieval practice of executing homosexuals by burning them at the stake using bundles of sticks, or “faggots”. In the 1500s, the term “faggot” also referred to a disagreeable or outcast woman and may have been extended to include gay men, who were equated with women.

The bolding in the quote is mine.

There is NO evidence that "faggot" was used in referrence to a homosexual male before 1914, contrary to the supposition in that article.

There is NO evidence that "the term faggot...may have been extended to include gay males..." before 1914.

All anyone has to do is come up with a print cite before 1914, and we'll be well on our way to understanding more about it.

But the idea that burning faggots 500 years ago, and that being the orign of the term for male homosexuals is the stuff that email glurge is made of.

[Lentil man]

I'd heard (not from a reputable source, but im sure they'd swear that they heard it from one) that 'faggot' was used as a synonym for 'male fairy' at one point or another, and that it made the jump to a derogatory term for homosexuals from there, a jump that certainly seems plausible, given the emasculated connotations of fairy. as i say, i have no evidence whatsoever, but has anyone else heard this?

[pcroughn]

Samclem,

I have to agree with you about that site being poorly written. I had originally hear the faggot/burn at the stake connection from a gay rights website, when I asked the origin of the word. I tried to find that site, but with little time, yesterday, I just grabbed something without reading the whole mess.

I guess what strikes me is that this theory seems to make a lot of sense. It connects the term with a plausible action and origin.

Even if the term wasn't in use before the early part of last century, could the legend of adding our fey bretheren to the fire inspired the term. That is, could a lot of folk, around 1914, be talking about homosexuals and related the story? An urban legend, perhaps.

I'd like to find out what the social opinions were at that time. Was homosexuality a common topic of discussion? Would people have related such tales? Did the chuch issue statements or proclamations that might have inspired interest?

I'm gonna do some digging.

Thanks for keeping me on my toes!

[ckondek]

I still think it's from British public schools.

http://www.effingpot.com/slang.html

Fagging - Fagging is the practice of making new boys at boarding schools into slaves for the older boys. If you are fagging for an older boy you might find yourself running his bath, cleaning his shoes or performing more undesirable tasks.


I also read in a book on Lewis Carroll that "fagging" and "faggot" come from the same source; sexual abuse in the British public school. And I think whoever wrote the intro to my version of Raffles: The Amateur Cracksman makes note that Bunny fagged for Raffles and that this may "explain their devotion to each other," nudge nudge.

http://www.austinchronicle.com/issue...s_feature.html

Harris's unhappiness grew after his father enrolled him at Ruabon, on the border between England and Wales. Like many British schools of that era, Ruabon had organized traditional fagging into a rigid pyramid of chiefs, monitors, and submonitors, who were with the younger boys and who presumably guided their footsteps during most hours of the day and night. Harris had to endure a claustrophobic existence of rigid discipline and stupid punishments.

http://www.uta.fi/FAST/US1/REF/britguid.html

Fag. A goody but an oldie. Over here a 'fag' is a cigarette. So in the song 'It's a long way to Tipperary' the line 'As long as you have a Lucifer to light your fag' is not a fundamentalist Christian's statement that all homosexuals will burn for eternity in hell, but saying that 'if you always have a match to light your cigarette...'
Fag #2. (Oh no not again!) When at a public (i.e. private - confused you will be) school in the UK, you may have to 'fag' for an older boy. This usually involves shining shoes, cleaning up and performing other favours for this older lad. In return for fagging, the older boy looks after your interests and makes sure that you fit into the school and promote the school spirit (bon vivre, not necessarily the alcoholic kind). This may also be a fag (i.e. a tiresome thing).
Faggots. Meat balls made from offal (chopped liver) in gravy. Also a small bundle of logs suitable to burn on a fire.

http://www.libertarian.co.uk/lapubs/educn/educn020.pdf

The above link discusses sexual abuse as a result of the fagging system and in the British public schools.

[ckondek]

http://www.louisville.edu/a-s/englis...ers/fowler.htm

Other aspects of school life are not neglected. The system of fagging, where small boys had to do chores and run errands for the mighty sixth-formers,was easily abused: it could turn in the direction of favoritism or bullying, and, by throwing the young and unprotected child into contact with much older boys, be the occasion of homosexual practice, whether or not coerced. This is referred to only obliquely in Tom Brown. A boy who attempts to coerce Tom and Scud into fagging is described thus: "He was one of the miserable, little, pretty, white-handed, curly-headed boys, petted and pampered by some of the big fellows, who wrote their verses for them, taught them to drink and use bad language, and did all they could to spoil them for everything" (201).

[ckondek]

Raffles and homosexuality here:

http://www.trashfiction.co.uk/raffles.html

Sorry to keep harping on this!

[Chronos]

men suspected of being homosexuals were thrown onto the pyres (to make the flames burn more fiercely)

How the heck would throwing people onto the fire make it burn more fiercely? I don't know if you noticed this, but wood burns a lot better than meat. And if they're not tied to a stake in the middle, what's keeping these "faggots" in the fire? Even a person in a full hogtie can still squirm pretty well, and I imagine that if I were thrown into a fire, I'd try pretty hard to get out.

Do people really put this little thought into things that they read? No wonder urban legends are so prevalent!

[samclem]

ckondek. Thanks for the input. While anything is possible, I haven't found a use of the word "faggot" in all of the published things about English schools written before 1914. They always seems to call the act "fagging" and refer to the underclassman as a fag. But never a faggot.

It's just hard to think that there never appeared in print before 1914 a cite of the word faggot in relationship to an underclassman serving an upperclassman, if you assume that this may be the source of the homosexual usage of the term.

Boys were fagging in English schools since the 1700's. The term "fagging" was probably not in use in the US much around 1900.

Just going with the probabilities. Anything is always possible.

[John W. Kennedy]

How the heck would throwing people onto the fire make it burn more fiercely? I don't know if you noticed this, but wood burns a lot better than meat.

Actually, I suspect that a human body may indeed add to the fierceness of the flame. There used to be an idiom "to fry a faggot", meaning to be executed at the stake. (Note, that's "to be executed", not "to execute". Advocates of the theory in question -- well, frankly, they lie outright about that part.) Note that "fry" historically does not mean "cook in a 'frying pan'" (a recent American development); it means what we today call "deep fat fry".

You see, the flame would melt fat out of the body, which would drip onto the burning wood....

Well, anyway, this is also wrong, because homosexuals, as such, were not burned, and neither were witches, under English law. Burning was reserved for traitors and lapsed heretics. Witches were hanged. I'm not sure what the official penalty for sodomy was, except that it wasn't burning, but throughout most of history, the custom, in practice, was usually "Don't ask; don't tell."

[ckondek]

Originally posted by samclem
ckondek.It's just hard to think that there never appeared in print before 1914 a cite of the word faggot in relationship to an underclassman serving an upperclassman, if you assume that this may be the source of the homosexual usage of the term.

Yes! I find that the most fascinating part of the whole mystery and, as you said, anything's possible. That and the mysterious crossing of the Atlantic from GB to the States if in fact that's how it happened. It makes me want to pore over obscure Victorian novels looking for references to "faggots." Surely I've already wasted enough time on this in my over-active Googling in the posts above!

I have this weird, wishful theory that linguistic mysteries like these can all be traced to one moment in time, one casual remark in conversation, never commemorated and lost to history forever.

Oh well!

[cold]

My medical terminology instructor mentioned to the class one day that the medical root term "phag", from the Latin word for eat or swallow, was the "origin of the slang word for a homosexual male". Kind of a weird thing for a teacher to say, but I thought it was interesting.

[John W. Kennedy]

What kind of medical-terminology instructor can't tell Greek from Latin?

[bon-ami]

guys. I realise I am new and very ignorant....BUT could I please ask all the americans to stop jumping to the conclusion that being a fag in an english public school means you are subjected to sexual abuse. It so rarely happens it is beyond belief (bearing in mind how popular the tales of it are). In fact (having known lots of public school chaps (and being one myself) I know of no actual homosexual occurances between a a chap and his fag. It just does not happen. Your fag is your responsibility - so you don't do that kind of thing or allow the fag to be abused by anyone else.

Also I think that the rumours of historical sexual abuse within england are played up a tad (I would say that wouldn't I?). Really...the nation is not (nor has it ever been to the best of my studies) a playground for rich homosexuals who take advatage of others whilst calling them fags / faggots or anything else.

As far as I can tell the americans took the perfectly good word of "fag" and corrupted it's meaning. Why I can't say. Some people (english) have corrupted the word poof also (makes ordering soft furnishings very tricky!).

Anyway....normal service will now resume.

[John W. Kennedy]

As said in the first place, there does not seem to be any connection at all between British public-school "fag" and gay "fag"/"faggot". The meaning seems to derive from "faggot" as a mildly abusive term for a woman or animal, the origin of which is unknown.

[Slow Moving Vehicle]

Originally posted by bon-ami

Also I think that the rumours of historical sexual abuse within england are played up a tad (I would say that wouldn't I?). Really...the nation is not (nor has it ever been to the best of my studies) a playground for rich homosexuals who take advatage of others whilst calling them fags / faggots or anything else.

Mon Bon Ami - I can certainly see why this stereotype would offend your English soul. But salacious stories travel better than the mundane truth, and the fact is, British public schools seem have the image of homosexuality attached to them, at least humorously. See Stephen J. Fry's The Liar. Besides which, put a bunch of hormone-tormented pubescent boys together, well ... This of course is by no means limited to the British.
As far as "fag" to "faggot", this is perhaps a back-formation by Americans who have never historically used either term, and so perhaps may have misinterpreted them? No evidence for this, just a SWAG (scientific wild-ass guess).

[samclem]

As far as "fag" to "faggot", this is perhaps a back-formation by Americans who have never historically used either term, and so perhaps may have misinterpreted them? No evidence for this, just a SWAG (scientific wild-ass guess).

As my article said, students at Harvard in the early 1800's used "fag" to refer to underclassmen in just the way that the British did. So Americans have used the term historically.

[Slow Moving Vehicle]

Originally posted by samclem
As my article said, students at Harvard in the early 1800's used "fag" to refer to underclassmen in just the way that the British did. So Americans have used the term historically.

Whoops, you're right. I didn't go back and re-read the article before I posted. Still, Americans have never - I could be wrong about this, call me on it if I am - used the word "faggot" to mean "bundle of sticks". That's why I guessed that "faggot" could be a back-formation from "fag".
Great article, by the way.

[samclem]

Still, Americans have never - I could be wrong about this, call me on it if I am - used the word "faggot" to mean "bundle of sticks". That's why I guessed that "faggot" could be a back-formation from "fag".

You're certainly thinking, and I appreciate it, but Americans actually DID use and understand that terminology. I can give you lots of cites if necessary.

[samclem]

akrako1 said

I'd heard that the origins of the term 'Faggot' lay in the term 'Faggoting' - a sewing term. I seem to remember it means something along putting some lace on a seam. Cecil didn't mention this term as a possible sorce. Anyone have any history on this?

While I had explored this possiblity in little detail, I've done a bit more since you replied.

It seems that the term faggoting to mean a kind of embroidery or stiching was much more common in the US at the turn of the 20th century than I though. A digital search of some newspapers of the day found the term in ads for clothiers rather frequently.

I won't dismiss the possible connection out of hand. It still seems unlikely, but I'll try to explore this more and thanks for the suggestion.

[Slow Moving Vehicle]

samclem, I bow to your scholarship. You obviously did a lot of research for this article. I would like to see some citations for American use of "faggot" as "bundle of sticks." Not out of any doubt of your assertion; just for my own edification. I thought I knew a lot about American English, but that one's new to me. Live and learn, eh?

You can e-mail me if you don't want to post the cites. Thanks.

[samclem]

slowmoving What I'll do is post a link to the Brooklyn Daily Eagle and if you hit enter, then search for "faggot bundle" you'll get 10 hits. Some are good, some bad. Most are in the mid-1800's. But it would typify what I was trying to say.

I didn't mean to imply that the average American went around using bundle of faggots in everyday speech. And, I'm sure you're right that around the turn of the 20th century, it was a less likely know useage than 50-100 years before.

It was certainly a rather more Britishism than an Americanism.

[ckondek]

Mon Ami, you raise a good point, and good for you. Doubtless, you are correct, as is SlowMoving when he remarks "salacious stories travel better than the mundane truth." But it reminds me of the old joke about the American couple visiting Scotland. (Or Ireland. Or Arkansas, take your pick...)

They meet an old man outside the pub, lamenting into the gutter, and enquire after the source of his sorrow.

"My name is Angus MacBride. Angus the builder. But nobody calls me 'Angus the Builder."

"Why not?"

"See that bridge? I built that bridge. But does anyone talk about it? No. See that awning? I built that awning. But does anybody remember it? No. I could point out to you dozens of things in and around this village that i have assembled wit me own two hands. But does anyone remember oul Angus for that?

"No. You have sex with ONE GOAT and..."

[samclem]

No. You have sex with ONE GOAT and..."

Ah, now you are truly a doper. You have brough up goats and sex in the same sentence. Welcome!

[Slow Moving Vehicle]

You know that's why Scots wear kilts, don't you? We've learned that the sheep can hear a zipper.

[ckondek]

BWAHAHAHA!

*blushes*