Penn Jillette: Religious folk SHOULD proseletyze?!?!

[FriarTed]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JHS8adO3hM

It really strikes me how deeply touched Penn seems to be here.

And what of his point? IF a religious person believes that someone's afterlife happiness is at risk, either by eternal Hell or temporal punishment or not being resurrected or bad reincarnations, is there not an obligation to share the warning & the solution?

Now, I don't at all defend the way a lot of my co-religionists do that, but is the very act of doing it an undesirable offense?

And if it should be done, how can it be done better?

[Mangetout]

Interesting to hear him say that (and say that he's always said that) - I'm pretty sure I've heard him say almost the opposite one some show or other.

[Larry Borgia]

Originally Posted by Mangetout

Interesting to hear him say that (and say that he's always said that) - I'm pretty sure I've heard him say almost the opposite one some show or other.

I'm not going to watch the video twice, but I thought he said he had always said the opposite.

I'm surprised he thought the psalms are in the new testament. Was that a joke?

[FriarTed]

Originally Posted by Larry Borgia

I'm not going to watch the video twice, but I thought he said he had always said the opposite.

I'm surprised he thought the psalms are in the new testament. Was that a joke?

He did not seem to be in a joking mood at all, but that did puzzle me. Especially for a man who has admitted to taking as many full Gideon Bibles as he can from hotel rooms, and using them to hold up furniture, etc.

Something tells me he's going to be treating that pocket NT/Pslms/Prvbs with more respect.

[cmosdes]

Ever try to explain to someone who <insert bad habit here> why they shouldn't <insert bad habit here>? Chances are people are already aware of many of the professed consequences of their actions. You telling them isn't going to make one iota of difference and will likely only annoy them and make you look like a busybody.

Don't try to teach a pig to sing and all that.

[Jophiel]

"Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you." - Matthew 28:19-20

Personally, I've always been somewhat suprised by people who say that they are Christians but that they wouldn't try to convert someone. Jesus is pretty explicit about what he wants his followers to do.

Obviously, I think there's a right way and a poorly planned way to go about it and I also feel that Jesus teaches that there's a point where you should stop because you've done your part and you'll only encourage conflict by pushing it. But the act of proseletyzing is an integral part of Christianity. Nice that Mr. Jillette recognizes that and doesn't take immediate offense to it.

[Cat Fight]

I can't watch the video, but what about the old chestnut about the missionary and the native? To paraphrase whoever I'm ripping off, the missionary tells the native guy all about God and heaven and the things he has to do to get there as well as the things he has to do to avoid hell. The native guy asks the missionary what would have happened if he'd never come to his village to teach him about his religion. Would everyone have automatically have been sent to hell? The missionary replies, oh no, of course not, a loving God would never punish ignorance.
Right. So why did you come?

[Revenant Threshold]

Originally Posted by FriarTed

And what of his point? IF a religious person believes that someone's afterlife happiness is at risk, either by eternal Hell or temporal punishment or not being resurrected or bad reincarnations, is there not an obligation to share the warning & the solution?

Yes, i'd say so.

And if it should be done, how can it be done better?

By doing it effectively, I suppose. At times that might mean not proselytizing. I've certainly been annoyed at it at times, but I do try and remember that it can very well be goodly motivated. Certainly it's possible it can come from a bad place, but quite often it's genuinely motivated by a desire to help.

So yeah, if anyone particularly wants to proselytize to me, and out of a good interest, I can't promise i'll be particularly helpful to the process, but I'd say thanks for the thought behind it.

[Blalron]

I can't imagine how Fundamentalist Christians manage to bear the psychological burden of believing that most humans are going to suffer eternally in hell. Just going shopping at a supermarket and looking at all those doomed souls would be a serious downer for anyone who has any empathy at all.

[Captain Amazing]

From Terry Pratchett's "Carpe Jugulum", from Granny Weatherwax, who does not believe, to Reverend Oats, a minister of the new, kindler gentler version of the old religion Omnianism:

Now if I'd seen him [Om], really there, really alive, it'd be in me like a fever. If I thought there was some god who really did give two hoots about people, who watched 'em like a father and cared for 'em like a mother...well, you wouldn't catch me sayin' things like 'there are two sides to every question' and 'we must respect other people's beliefs'. You wouldn't find me just being really nice in the hope that it'd all turn out right in the end, not if that flame was burning in me like a living sword. And I did say burnin', Mister Oates, 'cos that's what it'd be. You say that you don't burn folk and sacrifice people anymore, but that's what true faith would mean, y'see? Sacrificing your own life, one day at a time, to the flame, declarin' the truth of it, workin' for it, breathin' for it. That's religion. Anything else is just... is just bein' nice. And a way of keeping in touch with the neighbors."

She relaxed slightly and went on in a quieter voice: "Anyway, that's what I'd be, if I really believed. And I don't think that's fashionable right now, cos it seems if you sees evil now you have to wring your hands and say 'oh deary me, we must debate this'. That my two penn'orth, Mister Oates. You be happy to let things lie. Don't chase faith, 'cos you'll never catch it." She added, almost as an afterthought, "But, perhaps, you can live faithfully."

[glee]

Religious folk should only preach to each other.

Let the Jews and the Christians sort out whether Jesus is the Son of God before they inflict themselves on the rest of us.

[woodstockbirdybird]

So, if you're supposed to go bother people because you're worried their "happiness is at risk", do you also target smokers and go to their homes and tell them about the health risks and admonish them to stop before it's too late? If not, why not? Because it would be fucking annoying, that's why. Unless they're infants, they're already aware of your data, and would be more likely to get verbally abusive than invite you in for a cup of tea.

[SteveG1]

Originally Posted by woodstockbirdybird

So, if you're supposed to go bother people because you're worried their "happiness is at risk", do you also target smokers and go to their homes and tell them about the health risks and admonish them to stop before it's too late? If not, why not? Because it would be fucking annoying, that's why. ...

Yes it would be annoying, and unwelcome.
I tend to leave people alone and I mind my own business, and I expect the ame from others. There are too many people who "know what's best for you" and they really don't. Besides, which religion is the right one? One man's saint is another man's heretic.

[Sage Rat]

I haven't watched the video (though I've probably seen it before), but I would be fairly certain that Penn is pointing out that people don't follow nor really believe their religion if you look at what they would logically be doing based on the teachings of the religion.

If people really believe that everyone who isn't Christian is going to hell and that Jesus would want them to forsake money and worldly pleasures beyond those needed for basic survival and spend all that free time dedicated to the task of saving the rest of humanity--which is pretty much what Jesus would hold up as the ideal--then that's what they should be doing if they actually believe in God and Jesus and the Bible. Frankly, it's most likely that most Christians are at least 90% atheist and just don't admit it, if you take ten seconds to look at their daily lives.

Heck, if you're Christian, you should be out stoning homos to death, not sitting about fearing the declining interest rates.

[SenorBeef]

Originally Posted by woodstockbirdybird

So, if you're supposed to go bother people because you're worried their "happiness is at risk", do you also target smokers and go to their homes and tell them about the health risks and admonish them to stop before it's too late? If not, why not?

Eternal happiness or punishment is infinitely more important than anything that could possibly happen in life. Smoker gets cancer - it sucks, but it's not even a drop in the ocean of the potential of heaven and hell.

I've often had this thought myself. My dad is a very religious guy - he's polite about it and not pushy, but he obviously would push me into becoming religious if I seemed willing. So I wonder - if he sincerely believes I'll be punished eternally - a suffering far greater than the entire combined suffering of all of humanity since the beginning of time - why isn't he calling me several times every day to try to convert me? What could possibly have more importance than helping me, and anyone else he can, avoid hell? Nothing.

So on one hand, I get annoyed to be prosetylzed, and yet, the lack of it not becoming the singular goal of every true believer shows a great indifference to unconceivable suffering.

[sailor]

Originally Posted by SenorBeef

Eternal happiness or punishment is infinitely more important than anything that could possibly happen in life.

Torquemada? Is that you?

[Alessan]

Originally Posted by glee

Religious folk should only preach to each other.

Let the Jews and the Christians sort out whether Jesus is the Son of God before they inflict themselves on the rest of us.

You're working under the misconception that Jews care what Christians believe. We don't. Let them think that a giant rutabaga pie was the Son of God, for all we care, so long as they leave us alone.

[Wallenstein]

"You should evangelise always. Occaisionally you may need to use words".

If you have to tell people you're a member of a particular faith, you're probably doing it wrong.

[FriarTed]

Originally Posted by Wallenstein

"You should evangelise always. Occaisionally you may need to use words".

If you have to tell people you're a member of a particular faith, you're probably doing it wrong.

Except that I can do good deeds, be helpful & compassionate, etc. and be an adherent of a whole range of philosophies. Heck, I can do these things & be a fervent Ayn Rand Objectivist. BUT if I believe my good nature is due to my adherence to a certain POV that would benefit everyone, then I should specify what POV that is.

Something about Judaism being non-proselytizing- that was not necessarily always the case. Around the first centuries BCE to CE, there seems to have been Hillel-esque efforts to win Graeco-Romans to Noachic Monotheism. And there is presently a similar effort in some Hasidic groups, I think the Lubavitchers (it was a project from the late Rabbi Schneerson, IIRC). The Judaic non-proselytizing policy came about due to the brutal responses to such efforts from the Imperial Christian authorities .

[Skammer]

Originally Posted by Wallenstein

"You should evangelise always. Occaisionally you may need to use words".

The actual quote is from St. Francis of Assisi: "Preach the Gospel at all times. If necessary, use words." It's one of my favorite quotes.

[Critical1]

Originally Posted by Alessan

You're working under the misconception that Jews care what Christians believe. We don't. Let them think that a giant rutabaga pie was the Son of God, for all we care, so long as they leave us alone.

and anyone trying to convert unbelievers is under the misconception that we care what they believe...we dont.

Originally Posted by SenorBeef

I've often had this thought myself. My dad is a very religious guy - he's polite about it and not pushy, but he obviously would push me into becoming religious if I seemed willing. So I wonder - if he sincerely believes I'll be punished eternally - a suffering far greater than the entire combined suffering of all of humanity since the beginning of time - why isn't he calling me several times every day to try to convert me? What could possibly have more importance than helping me, and anyone else he can, avoid hell? Nothing.

hes not calling you several times a day to try and convert you because he knows that would do nothing but piss you off and drive you even further away from any hope of converting, thats my guess anyway. sounds like your dad is living his life as an example instead of trying to explain things. seems like my kinda Christian (or whatever your dad is)

[FinnAgain]

Originally Posted by Critical1

and anyone trying to convert unbelievers is under the misconception that we care what they believe...we dont.

Judaism is not a proselytizing religion.
In fact, if you wan to convert to Judaism, the rabbi is obligated to refuse you three times before he says yes.

[I Love Me, Vol. I]

Originally Posted by Alessan

You're working under the misconception that Jews care what Christians believe. We don't. Let them think that a giant rutabaga pie was the Son of God, for all we care, so long as they leave us alone.

Well, as long as you Jews leave everyone else alone too. (Which, thank O-g you folks mostly do. Judaism sure works a lot better for me than Islam or Christianity, but it is still centered around the irrational belief in a non-existent being (IMO)).

[Grumman]

From their point of view, I can see why they'd do that.

From my point of view, I have as little respect for the practice as if they were Flat Earthers trying to convince people not to sail to their dooms.

[Sitnam]

There are many religions where proselytizing makes no sense. Judaism for instance is the worship of the god of the Jews, if you're not Jewish it makes no sense to convert you. As far as I know the same goes for Hinduism.

Confuscionism is more of a philospohy as well as Buddism, again, if someone doesn't agree a believer would just shrug their shoulders and walk away. Now I certainly won't deny that violent acts are carried out waving the flags of these belief systems, but there is nothing inherent in their beliefs that compels their flock to spread their faith.

Christianity and Islam are standing in the corner looking pretty guilty right about now.

[Sage Rat]

Originally Posted by Sitnam

Confuscionism is more of a philospohy as well as Buddism

Buddhism is quite similar to Christianity except for the "there can be only one" thing. It's not just a philosophy, it is by every measure a religion. They have gods, people who performed miracles, saviors who walked the earth, an afterlife (including lots of hells), monks, nuns, priests, lots of different sects, etc.

When living in Japan I met a Buddhist proselytizer and also a guy who would do something similar to the Islamic thing of praying a few times a day.

[The Flying Dutchman]

Originally Posted by Sitnam

Christianity and Islam are standing in the corner looking pretty guilty right about now.

Pretty much like Democracy and Communism.

[ITR champion]

Originally Posted by FriarTed

And if it should be done, how can it be done better?

When I think about the process that lead me from atheism to Christianity, it did not involve anything that would commonly be identified as proselytizing. Rather, it involved me observing Christians doing good things. That's all there is to it. Or, as somebody once said:

You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden; nor does anyone light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on the lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house.

Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.

[ivan astikov]

People can do 'good things' under the aegis of any group. The religious aspect seems entirely unneccesary.

[jayjay]

Actually, an analogy I like better is the group of people who share the delusion that their office building is on fire. There is no actual fire, nor is there any false indication of a fire (no smoke, no smoke smell, no heat), but this group of people is absolutely convinced there is a raging fire in the building and has engaged in a physical effort to herd everybody out of the building to save them from the fire. If they were to merely shrug and say "I tried to warn him", and they sincerely believed there was a fire, they wouldn't be living up to their religion's demands. They should be in there dragging people down the stairs and on to the sidewalk.

Of course, they'd all be arrested for assault and possible psych evaluation, but at least they'd be consistent in their beliefs. Whether those charges and evaluations are necessary or fair is pretty much left up to how you view the beliefs, I'd think.

[SenorBeef]

Keep in mind I'm not advocating that view. I'm not religious. But if they were true believers (and I doubt everyone was - most were going with the group, afraid of persecution, and some were sadistic assholes) - then it's a logical extension of their belief system. If they could guarantee someone salvation (and avoidance of hell) through torture and killing, then for that belief system they were doing a far greater good.

Of course, in the real world, it's all bunk, and all they commited was evil - but those actions are in a twisted way more humane than believing everyone will go to hell and not trying to stop it.

[mswas]

Charity and compassion are the best form of proselytization. Live well and people will ask you how you do it, then you explain. Build a Christian soup kitchen, let people know that Christ inspired you to do it. It really is that simple.

[cornflakes]

It's a bit late in the thread to say this, but it's pretty neat that Gillette would say this. He's an athiest, but in being one he also seems to be a man of belief. I hand it to him for respecting another guy who stands by his beliefs even though they may seem at odds with Gillette's.

[Cumberdale]

I must say I totally agree with Penn on this point. Most of the proseletyzers I see are more like programmed robots spewing crap their verbal crap without knowing anything about me. Much like a door to door salesman trying to make a buck. They don't know me and probably don't give a damn what happens to me, all they know is they have a "quota" to meet.

Now, if someone I know and have some sort of relationship with sits me down and earnestly tells me he/she is concerned about my soul blah blah blah, then I will show the courtesy of listening. As Penn says, if they can look me in the eye and be straight with me about how they feel I will respect them for sharing and trying to help. I'll still think they are deluded and hopefully ask questions they will find provoking but I won't write them off as fools or belittle them.

So in essence, I'm saying that while I think religion is a primitive blight on humanity that we should have outgrown long ago, I would respect someone who truly did not want me to suffer for all eternity because I can't believe in some magical sky pixie.