This just in - Hugo Chavez is still crazy [says US machine caused Haiti quake]

[lalenin]

The latest claim by Hugo Chavez is that the Haiti earthquake was caused by the US. According to Chavez this was only a test, in preparation for doing the same thing to Iran.

[Mr. Excellent]

Hahahaha - well, he has to do something. Much of his own political credibility rests on being seen as a "counterweight" to the US. If the Americans are seen as a benign influence in the Caribbean and South America, then Chavez's credibility takes a ding. One way to avoid that ding is to try and persuade people that the Americans are to blame for Haiti's current misfortune. A smarter way to do it might be to argue (and not groundlessly) that the Americans have improperly usurped a leadership role in Haiti that ought properly to belong to the UN - but that wouldn't grab headlines, largely because reasonable people are already saying that. (I'm not saying this criticism is necessarily correct, merely that it isn't crazy.) And grabbing headlines for Defying American Abuses is the name of the game here.

[Eva Luna]

Originally Posted by lalenin

The latest claim by Hugo Chavez is that the Haiti earthquake was caused by the US. According to Chavez this was only a test, in preparation for doing the same thing to Iran.

How do you know the U.S. hasn't already caused an earthquake in Iran?

(, in case that wasn't obvious)

[Telemark]

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...d.php?t=548817

[YoureBeingABinkyBoo]

Hugo Chavez has accused the US Navy of attacking Haiti with an earthquake-producing weapon, as a dress-rehearsal for an attack on Iran. Conspiracy theorist websites have speculated that the Obama administration ordered a HAARP attack on Haiti, in order to test the technology's capability as a non-nuclear option to attack hardened underground targets. These theorists claim that a "bonus" for the Obama Administration and Democrats, is the massive influx of Haitian immigrants (and amnesty for those already illegally here), who will be welfare-dependent wards of the state and who will swell the ranks of the Democratic party.

Do you believe earthquakes can be initiated by a man-caused event? Do you believe the US has the technological capability (HAARP or otherwise) to initiate earthquakes, and do you believe, should the capability exist, that the US would test it on Haiti, and / or use it on Iran? Do you believe that the "bonus" of a massive influx of Haitian immigrants into the US would be a secondary objective of the operation?

[Bryan Ekers]

This clown is head of a country?




Chavez, I mean.

[John Mace]

Obama made a secret pact with the Chinese-- they all jumped up and down at the same time.

[Kimstu]

This is gonna be the most debate-free debate thread in Straight Dope history.

And if I'm wrong about that, it'll be pretty depressing. Come on OP, this is sheer wackjobbery.

Although we might be able to work up a nice tangential debate on why Chavez is saying this (other than his innate wackjob propensities, that is). Do you think it's an attempt at distraction from the gerrymandering charges or the drug war pressures?

[YoureBeingABinkyBoo]

Originally Posted by Kimstu

This is gonna be the most debate-free debate thread in Straight Dope history.

And if I'm wrong about that, it'll be pretty depressing. Come on OP, this is sheer wackjobbery.

Kimstu, we've "debated" 9/11 as a false-flag operation here ad nauseam, so I don't think this is too far out of the realm of debatable topics.

[Princhester]

Originally Posted by John Mace

Obama made a secret pact with the Chinese-- they all jumped up and down at the same time.

Actually I believe they jumped up and down in a careful pre-arranged timing pattern, focussing their collective jolts, lens-like, into a beam of purest earthquakiness at Port-au-Prince.

[Vinyl Turnip]

Originally Posted by YoureBeingABinkyBoo

Do you believe earthquakes can be initiated by a man-caused event? Do you believe the US has the technological capability (HAARP or otherwise) to initiate earthquakes, and do you believe, should the capability exist, that the US would test it on Haiti, and / or use it on Iran? Do you believe that the "bonus" of a massive influx of Haitian immigrants into the US would be a secondary objective of the operation?

Yep. Hugo nailed it, as always.

[Marley23]

Ah, it's a 2010's style "earthquake ray."

[John Mace]

It's called a "Freedom Tremor".

[i am a scientist]

Obama conspired with with the past 35 administrations, and Jesus, to focus a top secret Poverty Ray onto Haiti

[YoureBeingABinkyBoo]

Originally Posted by i am a scientist

Obama conspired with with the past 35 administrations, and Jesus, to focus a top secret Poverty Ray onto Haiti

By "poverty ray" do you mean the targeted broadcasting of Jerry Springer and Judge Judy episodes?

[Oakminster]

I strongly suspect that former law professor Obama is smart enough to figure out that a wave of Haitian immigrants, whether legal or otherwise, are highly unlikely to achieve citizenship in time to vote for him if he chooses to run for a second term.

[hotflungwok]

Do these questions really need to be answered? Do they have any bearing on reality at all? HAARP? Someone's been watching too much Remo Williams.

[A.Selene]

Yes, Obama did use it on Haiti. The control room is in a bunker in New Jersey, where I clean the bathrooms. I also saw Cheney use the controls in the next room over to shoot Katrina at Cuba. Apparently he's about a good a shot with hurricanes as he is with shotguns.

[Mr. Excellent]

Originally Posted by YoureBeingABinkyBoo

Do you believe earthquakes can be initiated by a man-caused event? Do you believe the US has the technological capability (HAARP or otherwise) to initiate earthquakes, and do you believe, should the capability exist, that the US would test it on Haiti, and / or use it on Iran? Do you believe that the "bonus" of a massive influx of Haitian immigrants into the US would be a secondary objective of the operation?

Okay - taking these as serious questions, and opportunities to fight ignorance:

1.) Sure, we could maybe start an earthquake if we wanted to. Drop enough nukes on a fault line that's already close to going, and you might cause an earthquake. Possibly. I guess. (I'm not a geologist, but that sounds plausible.) More importantly:

2.) Even if we had Magical Earthquake Rays, there's no way in heck we'd test *any* weapons platform on a country we weren't at war with. Come on - we have large areas of the country (testing grounds at military bases) specifically set up for controlled testing of weapons systems. More to the point - we aren't monsters. And even if we were, and we wanted to rub our hands fiendishly whilst counting the dead our glorious Magical Earthquake Rays produced - Haiti would be a miserable choice, because damage assessment is complicated there. We still don't have an accurate death count, and it's possible we never will.

3.) No one in US politics would benefit from an influx of desperately poor refugees. Believe it or not, the Democrats don't actually lie awake at night dreaming up ways to spend government dollars for no reason. Yes, we have poor people, and most Democrats would say government should do something to *help* those people - but no one would say "Huzzah! Tens or hundreds of thousands *more* poor people for the federal government to help!"

4.) It takes years for immigrants to become citizens - even becoming lawful permanent residents is difficult, and it's unlikely many Haitians will manage it. Many who're *already* here are being placed in Temporary Protected Status for 18 months - baring certain expections, we won't kick them out of the country. But that doesn't help most of the people who're still in Haiti. And in no way does this help the Democratic Party win elections, aside from the narrow sense that good humanitarian policy might endear it to voters.

Most conspiracy theories alleging nefarious secret misdeeds by democratic governments in open societies are nonsense, because such governmetns and societies make massive conspiracies very difficult to maintain. This is no exception.

[YoureBeingABinkyBoo]

Originally Posted by Mr. Excellent

More to the point - we aren't monsters.

I never approach these types of issues from the viewpoint that anything is beneath us. Entire societies have committed acts that are far, far worse (Holocaust). And if this technology existed, you can be assured that there is someone, somewhere, who would use it. Granted, probably not a US President, but then I think about Operation Northwoods and how, although it was never green-lighted, it did make it to the President's desk, and that fact alone is pretty scary.

[CurtC]

Originally Posted by YoureBeingABinkyBoo

I never approach these types of issues from the viewpoint that anything is beneath us. Entire societies have committed acts that are far, far worse (Holocaust). And if this technology existed, you can be assured that there is someone, somewhere, who would use it. Granted, probably not a US President, but then I think about Operation Northwoods and how, although it was never green-lighted, it did make it to the President's desk, and that fact alone is pretty scary.

I don't see how you can compare a bone-headed plan to fake attacks on the US as if they were by Cuba (with no deaths), with the Holocaust or intentionally causing an earthquake that kills over 100,000 people. That's just nuts.

[Lute Skywatcher]

Originally Posted by YoureBeingABinkyBoo

Granted, probably not a US President, but then I think about Operation Northwoods and how, although it was never green-lighted, it did make it to the President's desk, and that fact alone is pretty scary.

Originally Posted by CurtC

I don't see how you can compare a bone-headed plan to fake attacks on the US as if they were by Cuba (with no deaths), with the Holocaust or intentionally causing an earthquake that kills over 100,000 people. That's just nuts.

The Chief of Staff responsible for approving Northwoods found himself removed from his cushy office in the Pentagon and quickly shuffled off to Europe.

[Malthus]

They were trying for a "Teutonic weapon", which would have inundated Haiti with obnoxious German tourists.

[Grumman]

Originally Posted by Mr. Excellent

1.) Sure, we could maybe start an earthquake if we wanted to. Drop enough nukes on a fault line that's already close to going, and you might cause an earthquake. Possibly. I guess. (I'm not a geologist, but that sounds plausible.)

Sure, but we learned not to do that again after the Cobra Base incident.

[Count Blucher]

Originally Posted by Grumman

Sure, but we learned not to do that again after the Cobra Base incident.

Didn't they rule it out because too many records would be destroyed...?

[YoureBeingABinkyBoo]

Good jokes aside, and as goofy as it sounds, I thought it was "interesting". I'm primarily interested in hearing people's opinion on using an "earthquake attack" as a means of reaching Iran's hardened underground sites, seeing as how the use of tactical nuclear weapons would almost certainly be an option that's off the table in most people's minds.

[Der Trihs]

Offhand, I can think of three methods that we might be able to use to start an earthquake. The previously mentioned nukes - which would be hard to miss. Injecting massive amounts of lubricant like water into a fault - again, it would be hard to miss a large pumping station ( probably more than one ), and you'd never know when or if the fault would let go even if the method is workable. Or, it might be possible ( as in "I'd suspend disbelief if I read it in a sci fi novel" ) to us some sort of targeted vibrations through the ground to induce an earthquake. But as far as I know, we don't even have a serious theory let alone a real technique for that; and it would be very obvious to every country with a seismograph that something weird was going on.

And at any rate, none of that would involve high frequency radio waves like HAARP is working on anyway. You'd need evil geologists, not evil atmospheric & radio scientists. Those guys are in charge of the hurricane generators.

Originally Posted by YoureBeingABinkyBoo

I'm primarily interested in hearing people's opinion on using an "earthquake attack" as a means of reaching Iran's hardened underground sites, seeing as how the use of tactical nuclear weapons would almost certainly be an option that's off the table in most people's minds.

It would be barbaric; if anything, worse than using a nuke because it would be even less selective. And highly unreliable; more likely to destroy civilian buildings than no doubt heavily reinforced bunkers.

[Bryan Ekers]

Chavez is such a dope - the space shuttle doesn't even launch until February 7th!

[Shodan]

It would have worked, too - if it weren't for you meddling Venezuelans!

All seriousness aside, it is fun to watch the video of the OP and put into words what Fearless Leader's audience has to be thinking.

"O Jesu Maria - he's off on the Secret Earthquake Weapon kick again. Have those dolts in the palace forgotten to put the Thorazine in his water again? God knows they should have learned after he made the feather duster Minister of Culture last month.

I wonder how many Frequent Flyer miles I can get for a one way ticket to Switzerland..."

Regards,
Shodan

[Magiver]

Chavez is a walking talking Rick-Roll.

[Duke]

Originally Posted by YoureBeingABinkyBoo

Do you believe earthquakes can be initiated by a man-caused event?

Well, technically yes, seeing as Tsar Bomba produced energy equivalent to a 7.1 earthquake (in other words, slightly more powerful than the Haiti quake). Getting a Tsar Bomba-type device to a spot 10 miles under the suburbs of Port-au-Prince, however, seems to me a tricky task.

[The Urban Spaceman]

Originally Posted by YoureBeingABinkyBoo

Do you believe earthquakes can be initiated by a man-caused event? Do you believe the US has the technological capability (HAARP or otherwise) to initiate earthquakes, and do you believe, should the capability exist, that the US would test it on Haiti, and / or use it on Iran?

Actually it is possible for humans to initiate shallow earthquakes by pumping fluids into the subsurface, and in so doing raise pore-fluid pressure. Many fault planes are held very close to the point of failure, so a slight alteration in this supporting pressure will precipitate an earthquake. It's certainly within the technical capacity of the US. My engineering geology prof. was even consulted by the US army in just such a case.

Obviously the hypothesis in this case is crazy, but the above method is useful information if you wish to become a Bond villain.

[Amber in Treasury]

Originally Posted by YoureBeingABinkyBoo

Conspiracy theorist websites have speculated that the Obama administration ordered a HAARP attack on Haiti, in order to test the technology's capability as a non-nuclear option to attack hardened underground targets. These theorists claim that a "bonus" for the Obama Administration and Democrats, is the massive influx of Haitian immigrants (and amnesty for those already illegally here), who will be welfare-dependent wards of the state and who will swell the ranks of the Democratic party.

Christ on a bike. Those morons actually believe that?

[Marley23]

I've:

1. Merged lalenin's thread with the one started by YoureBeingABinkyBoo.
2. Moved the completed thread to MPSIMS from Great Debates.
3. Revised the title for clarity (added the part in brackets).

If anyone wants to have a serious debate on alternative weapons like an earthquake machine or anything else, I'd suggest starting a separate thread in Great Debates.

[Humble Servant]

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/16/sc...seismic&st=cse

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/11/sc...seismic&st=cse

Geothermal drilling projects can cause earthquakes--above links to NYTimes articles on same.

[Philster]

I feel so naive.

My sister did have a friend whose brother said that there was a Hispanic guy at the gym who said there was going to be a big shake up somewhere and that she shouldn't travel anywhere south of Florida. Apparently , he offered up this information just because he got good work out tips from my sister's friend's brother.

[YoureBeingABinkyBoo]

Originally Posted by Philster

I feel so naive.

My sister did have a friend whose brother said that there was a Hispanic guy at the gym who said there was going to be a big shake up somewhere and that she shouldn't travel anywhere south of Florida. Apparently , he offered up this information just because he got good work out tips from my sister's friend's brother.

I know that dude!

[dzeiger]

Was Christopher Walken spotted in a blimp anywhere nearby?

[Hari Seldon]

In what way is this worse than Pat Robertson's explanation?

[crowmanyclouds]

Originally Posted by Hari Seldon

... Pat Robertson's explanation?

Hmmm, Pat Robertson's explanation + Hugo Chavez's explanation = Obama really is the Messiah!?


CMC fnord!

[Mr. Excellent]

It isn't. But that's damning with very, very faint praise.

[Harmonious Discord]

Earthquakes are the weapon of the Mole People not the USA. Although I hear the Lizard aliens living in secrete underground bases are muscling in on that technology. Being Haiti most people would think of the Zombie connection but they don't have the brains to make an earthquake weapon.

[Marley23]

Originally Posted by Harmonious Discord

Earthquakes are the weapon of the Mole People not the USA. Although I hear the Lizard aliens living in secrete underground bases are muscling in on that technology.

Do you think Chavez is covering for the CHUDs? He sorta looks like one.

[Harmonious Discord]

Originally Posted by Marley23

Do you think Chavez is covering for the CHUDs? He sorta looks like one.

Could be.

[XT]

I think he just uses his face to smash open eggs and beat baby puppies...

-XT

[Ale]

Originally Posted by Harmonious Discord

Being Haiti most people would think of the Zombie connection but they don't have the brains to make an earthquake weapon.

Just you wait, I heard they've been gathering the brains for... oh, wait, catering the brains.

Never mind.

[FairyChatMom]

I have to wonder how much of his own rantings he actually believes. I'm inclined to think ol' Hugo just likes stirring up shit. He is a bit of an attention whore.

He's also insane, in my unqualified opinion.

[Clothahump]

Originally Posted by lalenin

The latest claim by Hugo Chavez is that the Haiti earthquake was caused by the US. According to Chavez this was only a test, in preparation for doing the same thing to Iran.

Chavez is a barking mad idiot. That's along the same lines as the people who claimed George Bush caused Hurricane Katrina because he wanted to kill poor blacks in New Orleans.

[suranyi]

Ken Follett wrote a novel -- The Hammer of Eden -- about a terrorist group using a machine to generate an earthquake on the San Andreas fault.

Of course that was fiction. I say again -- FICTION.

[elfkin477]

Originally Posted by Clothahump

Chavez is a barking mad idiot. That's along the same lines as the people who claimed George Bush caused Hurricane Katrina because he wanted to kill poor blacks in New Orleans.

Why is that crazy? Everyone knows that poor blacks tend to vote democrat. How else was Bush going to win his third term in 2008?

step 1: kill poor blacks in New Orleans to reduce # of dem voters
step 2: eliminate term limits
step 3: ??
step 4: third term