Advantages of laminated padlocks?

[Dog80]

I am talking about this design: http://www.toolstation.com/images/li...bbig/31305.jpg

What are the advantages of a laminated padlock vs. a typical solid one?

[Batfish]

I imagine the advantage is in manufacture. Stamping out multiple parts and assembling them with rivets is cheaper than machining or casting/machining the solide body.

[Chefguy]

No advantage to you, really. Packaging is a huge sales gimmick and people buy what looks right. Root beer in a blue container won't sell as well as in a brown container. Laminated steel padlocks will sell better than a cast-body padlock, even though the weak point of any padlock is the shackle, which should be made of tempered steel to resist bolt cutters and hacksaws. Most thieves don't bother with the lock anyway, as it's much easier to pry the hasp off the wall.

[drachillix]

Originally Posted by Chefguy

Most thieves don't bother with the lock anyway, as it's much easier to pry the hasp off the wall.

Ever want to know if you have a good secure door? Ask a fireman how he would get in. When you get to "cut a hole in the wall about here" you are probably done.

[Drew Kit]

I've removed a lot of padlocks with boltcutters, not as a thief I hasten to add. I can get through most locks silently and instantly using boltcutters that are cheaper than a single lock. If you are going to buy that sort of lock then at least buy one with a boron-carbon shackle. I would recommend buying one this shape as there is less exposed shackle so it is trickier to get purchase to cut quickly and silently.

[Stranger On A Train]

Originally Posted by Drew Kit

I've removed a lot of padlocks with boltcutters, not as a thief I hasten to add. I can get through most locks silently and instantly using boltcutters that are cheaper than a single lock. If you are going to buy that sort of lock then at least buy one with a boron-carbon shackle. I would recommend buying one this shape as there is less exposed shackle so it is trickier to get purchase to cut quickly and silently.

Uh, from the lock you linked:

Surprisingly the worst was also made by Abus (model no 41/30), described as truly awful with abysmal security and durability, and to be avoided at all costs. The full report can be read on pages 46 and 47 of the March edition of Which? magazine. This can be consulted by all in the reference section of the Central Library in Lion Yard.

Most locks of that construction are extremely low quality locks. As others have noted, though, it is generally easier to attack the hasp or exposed door hinges than the lock itself. You can generally knock the spot welded door hinges off of a metal school-type locker with two or three blows from a cold chisel, or just bust them off by wedging a heavy-duty Wonder Bar pry tool or a breeching bar. Basically, if your security on something is a padlock, you are basically just trying to dissuade curious passers-by, not prevent any kind of determined entry.

Stranger

[Chefguy]

Originally Posted by Drew Kit

I've removed a lot of padlocks with boltcutters, not as a thief I hasten to add. I can get through most locks silently and instantly using boltcutters that are cheaper than a single lock. If you are going to buy that sort of lock then at least buy one with a boron-carbon shackle. I would recommend buying one this shape as there is less exposed shackle so it is trickier to get purchase to cut quickly and silently.

Not to one-up you, but I've defeated padlocks (legally) with two open-end wrenches. It's interesting to see the look on someone's face when you do it that way.

[RealityChuck]

The lamination makes the lock mechanism better able to resist force; MasterLock, which pioneered the design, used to show how a bullet shot into the lock didn't break it. So in that basis, it's better (if made properly). But there are other ways to defeat the lock.

[Drew Kit]

Originally Posted by Stranger On A Train

Uh, from the lock you linked:

Surprisingly the worst was also made by Abus (model no 41/30), described as truly awful with abysmal security and durability, and to be avoided at all costs. The full report can be read on pages 46 and 47 of the March edition of Which? magazine. This can be consulted by all in the reference section of the Central Library in Lion Yard.

Uh, the worst Abus in that review, (model no 41/30) is actually a completely different type to the one I recommended. I wasn't recommending the lock or the company, I was pointing out that particular shape is more difficult to get purchase on with boltcutters quickly and quietly.

Originally Posted by Stranger On A Train

Most locks of that construction are extremely low quality locks. As others have noted, though, it is generally easier to attack the hasp or exposed door hinges than the lock itself.

Not so on, for example, a shipping container.

Originally Posted by Stranger On A Train

You can generally knock the spot welded door hinges off of a metal school-type locker with two or three blows from a cold chisel, or just bust them off by wedging a heavy-duty Wonder Bar pry tool or a breeching bar. Basically, if your security on something is a padlock, you are basically just trying to dissuade curious passers-by, not prevent any kind of determined entry.

Nobody I know carries a chisel, hammer and jemmy when boltcutters will do. I know full well padlocks are useless, I was simply recommending the least useless one.

Originally Posted by Chefguy

Not to one-up you, but I've defeated padlocks (legally) with two open-end wrenches.

Good tip, I've done it that way with two claw hammers but the boltcutters also get you through any fencing and act as a lever.

[commandolockusa]

Shackles being equal, the laminated padlock has historically been considered weaker than the solid padlock but cheaper to make, thus very useful. The advantages of the stacked plates are assumed to be strong based on their original usage in the construction of bank vault doors. They are certainly stronger than any die cast assembly and even many brass locks.

The disadvantage of the laminated stack is that since they are only held together by swaged rivets, they can be twisted or torqued and with enough force, sheared. If the rivet heads are chiseled or ground off, the laminated assembly can quickly be disassembled. The stack of laminations is very impact resistant and if not too hard as to crack when flexed, a lock that moves rather than fractures can be frustrating to the perpetrator attempting to defeat the assembly.

Commando Lock manufactures laminated padlocks that are assembled in a high speed stamping press under 100 tons. Each plate is actually stamped and bonded to the next plate by precise force fit tabs in a number of places per plate. These padlocks are the closest locks to a solid padlock when it comes to lock body strength.

True, shackles can be cut or ground and locks can be picked or beaten to failure. But thanks to new technology, some laminated locks will take more of a beating than their weaker cousins.

[FrankJBN]

"True shackles can be cut..."

Does anybody try to open padlocks by attacking the body., laminated or solid?

[Dewey Finn]

Reported obvious spam.

[commandolockusa]

European standards for padlocks include one for torque but the ASTM doesn't. I agree that attacking the body is more for looks and was a great commercial from Master Lock but it's not the best judge of padlock strength by any means.

Cutting or picking will always the most efficient. Guarding the shackle and adding security pins as well as a complicated keyway to the cylinder are the next step. Even adding drill resistant rods to the cylinder doesn't necessarily guarantee anti-drill...then again, succesful drilling through the cylinder doesn't mean you can actually get to the actuator to turn and release the locking mechanism.

I'm not spam--I just read your thread for the first time recently and wanted to update with information that I know because I co-invented it at my old company in the 1980's.

[Chefguy]

Originally Posted by commandolockusa

European standards for padlocks include one for torque but the ASTM doesn't. I agree that attacking the body is more for looks and was a great commercial from Master Lock but it's not the best judge of padlock strength by any means.

Cutting or picking will always the most efficient. Guarding the shackle and adding security pins as well as a complicated keyway to the cylinder are the next step. Even adding drill resistant rods to the cylinder doesn't necessarily guarantee anti-drill...then again, succesful drilling through the cylinder doesn't mean you can actually get to the actuator to turn and release the locking mechanism.

I'm not spam--I just read your thread for the first time recently and wanted to update with information that I know because I co-invented it at my old company in the 1980's.

Good information. Medeco was always the go-to lock for Diplomatic Security, both for padlocks and deadbolts (other than just for day access). The deadbolts were particularly difficult to defeat and impossible to pick. Trying to drill out the mounting screws was just not an option, what with the ball bearings in the way. The long throw on the bolt made jacking the jamb a pointless exercise. It was far easier to punch a hole through the door and open it by reaching through.

[Gary "Wombat" Robson]

Originally Posted by Dewey Finn

Reported obvious spam.

[moderating]
Dewey, I'm not going to call that spam, because he/she has obvious expertise in the field, is contributing useful information to the thread, is directly answering the question in the OP, and signed up as a member.

Commandolockusa, welcome to the Straight Dope Message Boards. We do hope to see you participating in other topics as well.
[/moderating]

[usedtobe]

Bit of security w/o telling the bad guys how:

Locks with the "crinkle cut" keys are not locks I can make a "master" key for those in about 3 minutes.

no, do not ask how

[dstarfire]

My grandparents used to run a storage rental place so would frequently have to remove padlocks on units that were several months past due.

His favored tool was a set of long-handled boltcutters, which were almost always sufficient. He hated the ones like Drewkit described. They turned a simple snip into a several minute operation.

[BrotherCadfael]

I've opened many consumer-grade locks with a three-pound hammer. One good sharp blow on the shoulder of the lock, and the shackle snaps right off.

[the_diego]

In our mine, most secure doors have padlocks (often multiple) that are shrouded by a section of 4" diameter pipe welded to the door. It allows one to unlock it but prevents bolt cutting. I'm thinking of having a safe made using that arrangement. The only problem is when the lock jams or someone messes around and plugs the key hole. It'll need a cutting torch to open.

[commandolockusa]

Gary,

Thank you for letting me post on here. I knew linking my site would be questioned--I'll follow the rules. I'm not here to advertise. I look forward to learning and talking about lots of topics. Locks don't define me...they just keep the bad guys out.

[commandolockusa]

@ Chefguy,

You're absolutely right about the Medeco cylinders. No one disputes their incredible difficulty to pick. They're the one to look at for best security. The best I can hope to do is to make a lock body that will accommodate a Medeco cylinder as many manufacturers do.

[Gary "Wombat" Robson]

Originally Posted by commandolockusa

Gary,

Thank you for letting me post on here. I knew linking my site would be questioned--I'll follow the rules. I'm not here to advertise. I look forward to learning and talking about lots of topics. Locks don't define me...they just keep the bad guys out.

One of the things that defines the Straight Dope is the number of members who are experts in something -- whether that something is mundane or highly specialized. It will become obvious soon enough that expertise doesn't determine who posts in which threads, though. Most of us are happy to jump into a conversation we know little about, just to try to learn something.

[commandolockusa]

I think they call those who have a bit of knowledge and interest in everything Statesmen...not to be confused with those who don't. They are called Politicians.