Film Noir Appreciation Thread

[Fried Dough Ho]

I admit it - I own lots and lots of movies (two terabytes worth). I tend to categorize them by year with a few exceptions; musicals, submarine movies, documentaries, noir...

Looking at my Noir listing, I realize I have more in that category than any others - more than 150 flicks. I never get tired of watching them, even the bad ones. Sometimes the B-rated ones are more fun to watch.

My favorites? Almost anything with Claire Trevor and Barbara Stanwyck for starters. Detour and D.O.A. are ones I can watch over and over. I love Dead Men Don't Wear Plaid. These movies helped my lifelong love affair with Burt Lancaster.

I am lucky to live in "the foggy city" where we actually have a Noir festival, but what are your favorites?

[Little Nemo]

Out of the Past is deservedly a classic.

[blondebear]

Kiss Me Deadly deserves a mention, I think.

[Fried Dough Ho]

Originally Posted by blondebear

Kiss Me Deadly deserves a mention, I think.

Thanks for the reminder - I have two versions (one with an alternate ending) and I have been waiting until I have time to watch both back-to-back.

[Saintly Loser]

The Big Clock (1948). Remade in 1987 as No Way Out, which launched Kevin Costner's career.

The Sweet Smell of Success (1957). An incredibly great movie. Starring Burt Lancaster and Tony Curtis.

The Last Seduction (1994), with Linda Fiorentio as perhaps the ultimate femme fatale.

[25.1327 Octopi]

One cannot discuss noir without mentioning Double Indemnity.

And a bit of a shout out to some French noir masterpieces: Bob Le Flambeur, Riffifi, and Le Samourai.

[Saintly Loser]

Oh, yes, French noir. There's some great stuff. Le Cercle Rouge (1970) comes to mind immediately.

[Imasquare]

Ah, black and white - my favorite...

The Devil Thumbs a Ride
The Ghost Ship
Scarlett Street

[Sigmagirl]

The Glass Key, both versions.

[Darth Nader]

Can one imagine what the world would be like today if men wore hats-- not baseball caps? And took them off when they went inside?

[RealityChuck]

I wear hats -- and not baseball caps -- and I take them off when I go inside.

[Caprese]

I still like noir, but I went through a phase of romance-tinged noir as a teen.
Some favorites of mine:

Laura
A crime thriller about obsession.

Rebecca
IMDB description: When a naive young woman marries a rich widower and settles in his gigantic mansion, she finds the memory of the first wife maintaining a grip on her husband and the servants.

The Uninvited
Crumbling home on the Cornish coast. A cat arches its back at the unseen, flowers wither from a "malignant hand." Good black and white stuff on a rainy night.

[BMalion]

"She walked in pointing a pair of .45's at me...


...then she pulled out a gun."


Tommy Sledge

[MovieMogul]

Originally Posted by Fried Dough Ho

I am lucky to live in "the foggy city" where we actually have a Noir festival,

Indeed--I go every year, though it's always tough choosing which day to go (I attend enough other fests throughout the year, my better half will not abide being a noir widow).

Lots of great mentions (especially Smell & Scarlet), but one personal fave is Criss Cross, another lean, tight Lancaster vehicle directed by Robert Siodmak, who was no slouch in that genre.

[The Other Jeffrey Lebowski]

A noir from Kurosawa, High and Low, is riveting.
Then there's Truffaut's, Shoot the Piano Player, one of my all time favorites.
Also have to reco I Wake Up Screaming, if for nothing else than for Laird Cregar's performance.

[BMalion]

Originally Posted by The Other Jeffrey Lebowski

A noir from Kurosawa, High and Low, is riveting...

I cannot agree more, one of my favorites.

[Zeldar]

No thread on a topic as broad and multi-faceted as Noir would be complete without some links to sites such as:

Film noir From Wikipedia,
Top Rated "Film-Noir" Titles
Top 10 Film Noir Movies
Top 25 Noir Films

Just out of curiosity, what's the feeling on the Neo-Noir offerings like Chinatown, L.A. Confidential and things made in the past two or three decades?

One that you had to be watching for or you missed it was Gotham (1988) (TV) but it was one tough movie with some excellent Virginia Madsen!

[Fried Dough Ho]

Originally Posted by Zeldar

Just out of curiosity, what's the feeling on the Neo-Noir offerings like Chinatown, L.A. Confidential and things made in the past two or three decades?

In my anal-retentiveness, while I have and adore those aforementioned films, they are filed within my Noir folder but I consider them homage to classic Noir.

Similarly, Body Heat and Blade Runner are also high on my list of Neo-Noir which I greatly appreciate but my list of Noir films sort of stops in 1959.

[BMalion]

Originally Posted by Fried Dough Ho

In my anal-retentiveness, while I have and adore those aforementioned films, they are filed within my Noir folder but I consider them homage to classic Noir.

Similarly, Body Heat and Blade Runner are also high on my list of Neo-Noir which I greatly appreciate but my list of Noir films sort of stops in 1959.

Mine stretches to 1963, to include High & Low, as previously metioned.

[Duke of Rat]

Originally Posted by Fried Dough Ho

These movies helped my lifelong love affair with Burt Lancaster.

The Killers is my Burt favorite.

I mentioned it before I think, but The Big Sleep is a good one IMHO.

[garygnu]

Brick

On my personal top-ten movie list, it shows you can have a riveting, 100% Noir movie with any setting if you do it right.

[Mr. Excellent]

Originally Posted by garygnu

Brick

On my personal top-ten movie list, it shows you can have a riveting, 100% Noir movie with any setting if you do it right.

Agreed - I was amazed at how well these very young actors pulled off classic noir characters (the cop, the PI, the femme fatale, etc). And the scene when

SPOILER:

The protagonist lets The Pin die

is as chilling as anything in noir.

[TriPolar]

Apocalypse Now

[The Other Jeffrey Lebowski]

Originally Posted by TriPolar

Apocalypse Now

Interesting take. There are certainly elements of film noir in it, but not enough to classify it as such, imo.

[TriPolar]

Originally Posted by The Other Jeffrey Lebowski

Interesting take. There are certainly elements of film noir in it, but not enough to classify it as such, imo.

Other than a few scenes shot in daylight, what's missing?

[Fried Dough Ho]

Originally Posted by TriPolar

Other than a few scenes shot in daylight, what's missing?

A femme fatale. An urban setting. Protagonist in almost every scene. A scapegoat or fall guy.

[TriPolar]

Originally Posted by Fried Dough Ho

A femme fatale. An urban setting. Protagonist in almost every scene. A scapegoat or fall guy.

IMHO a narrow point of view limiting the genre. That could be a long thread on it's own. Any objections to neo-noir?

[MovieMogul]

Originally Posted by TriPolar

Other than a few scenes shot in daylight, what's missing?

A few scenes?!? Probably 2/3 of the movie takes place in the day.

IMHO a narrow point of view limiting the genre. That could be a long thread on it's own. Any objections to neo-noir?

"Noir" has never meant, from a genre perspective, simply "takes place at night." It has always relied on some specific tropes that are not all hard-and-fast, but still act as fairly reliable benchmarks. As FDH itemized:

A femme fatale. An urban setting. Protagonist in almost every scene. A scapegoat or fall guy.

I would also add "A crime". Does a film need each and every one of these components to qualify as "noir". No, of course not.

But the Coppola war film has virtually none of these things. To broaden the definition of "noir" (even "neo-noir") so that it could include just about anything that takes place at night (Aliens? Pan's Labyrinth? The Rescuers?) renders it functionally meaningless.

The Conversation fits the bill along virtually all fronts, in tone and theme. That definitely counts as neo-noir. The Godfather's might too, though most would consider them more in the Gangster genre. But Apocalypse Now? Nuh-uh. Heck, One from the Heart is more of a noir (which is to say, not much).

[TriPolar]

Originally Posted by ArchiveGuy

A few scenes?!? Probably 2/3 of the movie takes place in the day."Noir" has never meant, from a genre perspective, simply "takes place at night." It has always relied on some specific tropes that are not all hard-and-fast, but still act as fairly reliable benchmarks. As FDH itemized:

I would also add "A crime". Does a film need each and every one of these components to qualify as "noir". No, of course not.

But the Coppola war film has virtually none of these things. To broaden the definition of "noir" (even "neo-noir") so that it could include just about anything that takes place at night (Aliens? Pan's Labyrinth? The Rescuers?) renders it functionally meaningless.

The Conversation fits the bill along virtually all fronts, in tone and theme. That definitely counts as neo-noir. The Godfather's might too, though most would consider them more in the Gangster genre. But Apocalypse Now? Nuh-uh. Heck, One from the Heart is more of a noir (which is to say, not much).

Noir speaks to me because of the 'darkness' of the character's souls, not the lighting. Urban setting? I forgot sin is only found in cities. Femme fatale? You forgot about the best scene in the movie. What do you think they were fighting for? No crime? What if someone stole Kurtz' wallet, would that raise the Vietnam war to the level of a crime for you. No scapegoat or fall guy? Did you even see the movie? Oh, and what was the name of that Conrad novel it was based on? I think you can't see the jungle for the trees.

[RealityChuck]

I see a lot of people calling films "film noir" just because they deal with dark themes. But the classic model is really a form of tragedy: the hero gets enmeshed into a a web of intrigue and murder, usually because of a manipulative woman (a lot of film noir is intensely misogynistic). In the best film noir, he does not come to a good end.

I've liked films like Double Indemnity (really, the model film noir), D.O.A., Detour, and Scarlet Street. I'm also a fan of Kansas City Confidential and He Walked By Night, neither of which are really film noir (the first is a heist film, the second a pseudodocumentary), but are often cited as being part of the genre since they have some stylistic similarites.

[Fenris]

The Window.

Mostly forgotten but utterly creepy Film Noir with little Bobby Driscoll in the "male" role of the noir--it's creepy as hell to see a 10 year old boy in the "guy" role.

The upshot is that the kid is a liar...one of his lies almost gets his folks thrown out of their apartment...and dad and mom blow a gasket. That night, he sleeps out on the fire escape to keep cool and in the middle of the night hears people fighting upstairs. He goes up the fire escape, peeks in the window and sees a woman and her (boyfriend?) kill her (husband?--I may have that backwards). In any case, the kid has cried wolf too often and no-one will believe him. Then someone tells the nice lady upstairs what the kid has been saying.....

It's wonderful. (It's also based on a story by Cornell Woolrich who wrote the story Rear Window was based on.)

[Zeldar]

Unless you have a Netflix account, this link is not likely to work:
http://www.netflix.com/SubGenre/Clas.../Film_Noir/324
but if it does, and if your account is similar to ours, there are six pages of 24 items in the category.

Since it's a subgenre of Classics, the Neo-Noir issue appears to have been settled at Netflix as a non-issue. At least I haven't spotted any of the newer ones in the list. And I can't seem to find a Neo-Noir grouping either.

[The Other Jeffrey Lebowski]

How about it being a war movie with noir sensebilities? I can see the reasoning for aguing for it being a (neo) noir, but to me, it's a war movie.
A neo noir that I like is The Grifters.

[Mr. Excellent]

How has no one mentioned "The Third Man" yet? Classic noir, with a twist: In most noir, the conventional authorities are corrupt or incompetent impediments to our Tragically Flawed Yet Skilled and Heroic Protagonist. In "The Third Man," the police are competent professionals, and the PI is a hack writer who turns everything he touches to ash. (We don't need spoilers for movies older than my parents, do we?)

[MovieMogul]

Let me guess--The Wizard of Oz is a noir, too, right? You'd certainly think so with all the strawmen you introduce in your arguments.

[TriPolar]

Originally Posted by ArchiveGuy

Let me guess--The Wizard of Oz is a noir, too, right? You'd certainly think so with all the strawmen you introduce in your arguments.

You believe Apocalypse is not noir. Then don't put it on your list of noir films. It's on mine. I'd call it neo-noir, or noir-ish, to distinquish it from the classic noir films, but it's still noir to me.

[BMalion]

Originally Posted by ArchiveGuy

Let me guess--The Wizard of Oz is a noir, too, right? You'd certainly think so with all the strawmen you introduce in your arguments.

and Singing In The Rain ?

[garygnu]

Originally Posted by ArchiveGuy

Let me guess--The Wizard of Oz is a noir, too, right? You'd certainly think so with all the strawmen you introduce in your arguments.

I could see a Wicked-style alternate presentation of the Oz events from the point of view of this hapless chump Dorothy dupes into protecting her. Think of all the life-threatening crap the Scarecrow has to deal with only to have Dorothy disappear when she's through with him.
Assaulted by trees, set on fire, torn to shreds, compelled to attempt a prison break... that could easily fit as a Noir.
(The singing and dancing would have to go, and the over-saturated colors, and the happy ending.)

[BMalion]

Originally Posted by garygnu

I could see a Wicked-style alternate presentation of the Oz events from the point of view of this hapless chump Dorothy dupes into protecting her. Think of all the life-threatening crap the Scarecrow has to deal with only to have Dorothy disappear when she's through with him.
Assaulted by trees, set on fire, torn to shreds, compelled to attempt a prison break... that could easily fit as a Noir.
(The singing and dancing would have to go, and the over-saturated colors, and the happy ending.)

So, basically Tin Man, yeah, I'll buy that.

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

As mentioned, Double Indemnity and Detour, for sure.

Not yet mentioned: Cape Fear.

And, if you want to stretch the noir definition: Night of the Hunter.

mmm

[Fried Dough Ho]

I watched Crime of Passion last evening with Barbara Stanwyck and while a little-known film and more on a B-level with stilted dialogue and bizarre plot, it was definitely great fun to see manipulative, conniving Stanwyck. Can't believe she never got an Oscar for her body of work (other than an honorary one in 1982).

[Zeldar]

Originally Posted by Fried Dough Ho

I watched Crime of Passion last evening with Barbara Stanwyck and while a little-known film and more on a B-level with stilted dialogue and bizarre plot, it was definitely great fun to see manipulative, conniving Stanwyck. Can't believe she never got an Oscar for her body of work (other than an honorary one in 1982).

One tough lady. Have you noticed the resemblance between her and Virginia Madsen? One almost noir from recent years that's fun on several levels is The Hot Spot (1990) where one of those levels is some topless pre-reduction Jennifer Connelly!

[Saintly Loser]

Originally Posted by Zeldar

One almost noir from recent years that's fun on several levels is The Hot Spot (1990) where one of those levels is some topless pre-reduction Jennifer Connelly!

Why is The Hot Spot an "almost noir"? It's neo-noir, certainly, but I'd say it has all the elements of classic noir.

It's not a bad movie. Don Johnson is surprisingly well cast, and does a decent job. And, well, Jennifer Connelly.

[Zebra]

The cat's in the bag and the bag's in the river.



I just like saying that.

[Fried Dough Ho]

As a self-employed artist, I just keep the television on for companionship (but much like what is broadcast). Here is what I've watched recently...

1940 - The House Across the Bay - Mediocre
1944 - Double Indemnity - does it get any better?
1944 - Ministry of Fear - Ray Milland was a really great actor when he was young! Very Hitchcockian film.
1944 - When Strangers Marry - Not bad to see a young Robert Mitchum in an interesting role
1945 - Bewitched - Oddly named early film on multiple personalities.
1945 - Danger Signal - Pretty good. Not the best, but well-acted with Zachary Scott as the smarmy lothario.
1946 - The Killers - Burt Lancaster's first and damn, he is one fine man. Ava Gardner is no slouch either.
1947 - Born to Kill - Claire Trevor has probably one of my most favorite femme fatale speeches EVER in a noir film in this flick.
1947 - Crossfire - This is a bridge film; I like noir with a femme fatale and this has more to do with antisemitism although Gloria Grahame shines a little as the small role as the dark girl.
1947 - The Arnelo Affiar - Interesting in that the narrator is a woman. Usually it is the male gumshoe or the man in trouble providing the dialogue tract and here it is a stunning Frances Gifford. Song-and-dance man George Murphy is the oblivious husband, John Hodiak is the swarthy lothario, and a young Dean Stockwell is the son.
1947 - Nightmare Alley - noir in a carnival. Fascinating display of the downfall of a man.
1952 - Wings of Danger - Interesting Brit noir. Somehow hearing the intrigue with the accent makes it all that much more elegant.
1945 - Detour - Bordering on the "so bad it is brilliant." Such a classic in improbability but so great to watch. One of my favorites.
1945 - The Strange Mr. Gregory - Fairly lame magician seduces a wife and frames a husband to get her. Meh.
1946 - The Glass Alibi - Really bad and very predictable.
1946 - The Crooked Mile - Almost hard to follow and really hard to finish. Very forgettable.
1947 - Bury Me Dead - Should have been better but too many laughable characters who couldn't take themselves seriously as actors. Not a bad ending, considering.
1947 - Calcutta - Due for a restoration. A young Alan Ladd brings it all together.
1947 - Dancing with Crime - A British Noir with a young Richard Attenborough who looked as though he was barely ready to shave. Quite fun to hear the gangsters ordering tea.

[Johnny Angel]

Originally Posted by Fried Dough Ho

1945 - Detour - Bordering on the "so bad it is brilliant." Such a classic in improbability but so great to watch. One of my favorites.

It is a bad movie. It's overwrought -- a textbook case of over-doing technique. Literally, I have a textbook that discusses just this issue. The acting isn't great. And there's that whole sequence where the driver is sitting on the right side of the car because they had to flip the film when they realized that they filmed the car driving in the wrong direction and they could afford to film it again. Yet, I like the film without too much ironic detachment.

[Sampiro]

Does Sunset Boulevard count as film noir?

[Fried Dough Ho]

Originally Posted by Sampiro

Does Sunset Boulevard count as film noir?

Oh, definitely. We have the ubiquitous voice-over. We know there was a crime from the get-go but are not sure who the guilty party is. The protagonist's downfall is a complicated woman. And there are lovely, dark shots and shadows.

[Sampiro]

Sunset is easily one of my favorite films, along with A Touch of Evil and Anatomy of a Murder (which I was surprised at the frankness of in describing a rape scene). I've wondered what films I should add as "essential Noir".

[Promethea]

My favourites, Out Of The Past (also known as Build My Gallows High) and Double Indemnity already got mentioned so I'd like to add Gilda. Man, Rita Hayworth was really something.