Resignation from Mormonism (sorry it's long)

[Rhodes]

Ahhhh, closure.

The local Mormon bishop will be getting this in his mailbox tomorrow:

Dear Bishop [my LDS bishop]:

This letter is to notify you of our resignation from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, effective immediately. With our resignation we voluntarily sever all our relationship to the church.

We therefore request you to make the necessary changes in the church membership records to indicate that we are not members. We are familiar with the procedures in the Church Handbook of Instructions, and we request that you fill out and forward the necessary administrative forms to the stake and to church headquarters as soon as possible.

Most importantly, we request that the names of our children be removed from all church records. It is imperative that there be no attempts made to indoctrinate our children or to persuade them to join the LDS church. When our children are old enough and experienced enough to discern fact from fiction, we will support their moral, religious, and philosophical beliefs. It is not to be assumed that because they are “born in the covenant” they are ripe candidates for baptism; they have made no such covenants, and any covenants that [I ] and [The Wife] made with the LDS church are terminated with this letter. To understand our position, please imagine how offensive it would be if we were to teach the ward’s 8-year-old children about morality and LDS history from our perspective as apostates.

This decision was not made lightly or spontaneously. It is the result of several years of study, prayer, and doubt, which eventually prompted us to research the origins and doctrines of the LDS church. [I ] finally went through a period of intense study and soul-searching in the first part of 2009, with [The Wife] doing the same in late 2009. We uncovered literally hundreds of repulsive doctrines, cover-ups of horrendous actions, and eyewitness accounts that contradict all that we had been taught by the church concerning its history, theology, and credibility as a source of moral instruction. We understand that the enemies of the church are often dishonest and find delight in exaggerating the evils of the church. We also recognize that the LDS church has a strong incentive to whitewash its history and to deny facts and evidence in order to retain and increase its membership. Our goal in our research has been to see through the biases and lies told by both sides in order to understand the truth.

Please understand that we feel no anger toward the church or its members. We have committed no sins which we are trying to excuse. And as hard as it may be for some to believe, we are in fact not possessed by Satan. It is our understanding that you are required to indicate on your form our reason for leaving. Please state the reason simply as "At member's request.”

Our continued friendship with members of the LDS church is valuable to us. While we welcome all of our friends to spend time with us, no one is invited to contact or visit us as part of a church assignment. We are not merely inactive members of the church in need of more love and encouragement. We are apostate ex-members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. We will not be persuaded to remain in the church or to return to the church. A waiting period before processing our resignation is not necessary.

We understand that according to church doctrine this resignation cancels all blessings, baptisms, ordinations, promises, covenants, and hope of exaltation in the celestial kingdom. We have made our decision with that consideration well in mind.

Please ask the stake president to notify us when he has forwarded this resignation to church headquarters so that we will know that our request is being honored without delay.

Sincerely,

[Me]
[The Wife]

I had said previously on the SDMB that I didn't understand why people bother with resigning from Mormonism. But as the months passed, the frequent visits from missionaries, home teachers, and local leaders just got too tedious. And then we realized that in a couple years, there is gonna be intense pressure to baptize our kids. I'll brainwash my own kids, thank you very much. I don't need people teaching them that Mommy and Daddy are damned because they rejected the One True Church.

It has now been one year since my wife discovered that I was an apostate. Surprisingly, she converted 100% to ex-Mormonism within a month. It was an exciting, terrifying ride, and with our resignation it is finally over.

I just had to share the good news with someone, and since all my friends and family are still Mormons they wouldn't really understand what a relief it is to be free. Thanks for reading, and I hope you enjoyed this.

[smiling bandit]

While I have no problem with infant baptism, nor with religions which fail to completely live up to their mission (it's sort of built in to all religion that people fail at it), I must agree that the LDS church has a big problem with falsifying its history. I'm not even talking abut miracles, per se - a lot of the stuff they believe are just kinda silly, not even getting into being theologically unsound. unfortunately, they are another of the American cults which formed around the sme time. They happened to survive by near-total isolation, unlike most others. They oftenm mean well, but their beliefs are just wrong. Their bad Christianity and bad thought, and bad in that they substitute American iconoclasm for good theology. Iconoclasm has its points, but it creates a dangerous tendency to intellectual masturbation.

[Rhodes]

Yep. I was talking to my neighbors yesterday, and trying to explain ex-Mormonism to people who don't really know all that much about Mormonism. I still believe that, for the most part, the modern LDS Church is good. Completely false, and evolved from a horrible evil cult (specifically the 1850s in Utah), but still good. I love their family values. I enjoyed the social aspects. But once I learned of all the lies, I could no longer pretend to believe. And then it was hard to hang out with good people who keep telling me that "Satan has clouded my judgement."

[dangermom]

The letter needs to have your full name, birthdate, and signature. They will probably contact you to make sure it's you who sent it.

[Rhodes]

It has those in the header. As well as my wife's and children's full names and birthdays. And I don't mind if they call me for more info. It would be a nice confirmation that they are processing it.

[Hedda Rosa]

Sorry - my ignorance showing here - why not just stop going to church. Is a big statement truly necessary? I don't doubt you, just trying to learn.

Congratulations on what must be an exciting time of change for you and [The Wife].

[pepperlandgirl]

Congratulations. It's very freeing, isn't it? Sometimes I just randomly remember that I'm no longer a member, no longer an eager follower of the cult, and it's like a breath of fresh air. Were you raised in the church? It's difficult to break away because the doctrine infects every single part of your life. I haven't been active in about a decade, and I'm still trying to untangle my conscious and morals from their harmful lies.

Originally Posted by Hedda Rosa

Sorry - my ignorance showing here - why not just stop going to church. Is a big statement truly necessary? I don't doubt you, just trying to learn.

Congratulations on what must be an exciting time of change for you and [The Wife].

It is necessary. Once you're on the books with the LDS Church, you're there forever. Which means they have no qualms about sending home teachers and missionaries to your house to harass you into being active again. The only way to officially remove yourself as a member to send an official letter to Church Headquarters (you shouldn't send it to the bishop, unless you really want him to know, he can't remove you from the rolls. Here's the full instructions to be removed).

Depending on your community and your situation, it can be quite annoying and invasive. If you google around for stories about people who left the church, you'll find some pretty terrible tales. Also, there have been instances where people with disagreements/conflicts are ex-communicated, which they don't bother to make a private process and includes summoning you to what amounts to a tribunal--again, depending on your community and context, this can be a very...vexing...situation (I don't know if any of that is true for the OP obviously, I'm just speaking of general reasons people take this step). Most sane people probably can't imagine the local spiritual leader summoning you to their office for "court," where all sorts of invasive and personal questions are asked, but it's SOP for the Mormons, and according to all of the personal testimonies (hah) I've read, the process is neither "kind" nor "gentle".

Plus there may very well be personal reasons that the OP didn't expound on. I know that I don't mind the occasional call from the local ward (though how they found my personal cell number, I'll never know) but I don't want anything to do with them for many reasons. I mean, if you found out an institution you were a member of (possibly by virtue of birth/family) has a very, very grievous history full of all sorts of serious crimes, not to mention terrible lies and extremely bigoted and hateful beliefs, would you want your name associated with that institution?

[Rhodes]

Originally Posted by Hedda Rosa

Sorry - my ignorance showing here - why not just stop going to church. Is a big statement truly necessary? I don't doubt you, just trying to learn.

Congratulations on what must be an exciting time of change for you and [The Wife].

I was a missionary back in the day. Most of my converts were the 9-year-old children of inactive church members. When kids turn 8, they are supposed to be baptised. If the parents have failed to indoctrinate the kids, the Primary (sunday school for kids) will try to persuade them to get baptised, and then if at age 9 they are still unbaptised it becomes the missionaries' responsibility. My kids are age 1, 2, and 5, and already we've had several offer from people that the kids don't know to come and take them to church.

So we resisted resigning for a whole year. We enjoyed the many LDS visitors for a while, whether they came to say hello or to Bible-bash. But then when the home teachers sent a txt asking when their next visit could be, The Wife said to me "ugggh, do we have to?" It had become a chore. Several times a month, them coming to our house with their perma-grins to show us how happy we could be if we returned to Mormonism, and us with our perma-grins to show them how happy we were to be free.

The decision to resign was to give closure to us and to prevent the harassment of the little'uns.

[Rhodes]

Originally Posted by pepperlandgirl

Congratulations. It's very freeing, isn't it? Sometimes I just randomly remember that I'm no longer a member, no longer an eager follower of the cult, and it's like a breath of fresh air. Were you raised in the church? It's difficult to break away because the doctrine infects every single part of your life. I haven't been active in about a decade, and I'm still trying to untangle my conscious and morals from their harmful lies.


It is necessary. Once you're on the books with the LDS Church, you're there forever. Which means they have no qualms about sending home teachers and missionaries to your house to harass you into being active again. The only way to officially remove yourself as a member to send an official letter to Church Headquarters (you shouldn't send it to the bishop, unless you really want him to know, he can't remove you from the rolls. Here's the full instructions to be removed).

Depending on your community and your situation, it can be quite annoying and invasive. If you google around for stories about people who left the church, you'll find some pretty terrible tales. Also, there have been instances where people with disagreements/conflicts are ex-communicated, which they don't bother to make a private process and includes summoning you to what amounts to a tribunal--again, depending on your community and context, this can be a very...vexing...situation (I don't know if any of that is true for the OP obviously, I'm just speaking of general reasons people take this step). Most sane people probably can't imagine the local spiritual leader summoning you to their office for "court," where all sorts of invasive and personal questions are asked, but it's SOP for the Mormons, and according to all of the personal testimonies (hah) I've read, the process is neither "kind" nor "gentle".

Plus there may very well be personal reasons that the OP didn't expound on. I know that I don't mind the occasional call from the local ward (though how they found my personal cell number, I'll never know) but I don't want anything to do with them for many reasons. I mean, if you found out an institution you were a member of (possibly by virtue of birth/family) has a very, very grievous history full of all sorts of serious crimes, not to mention terrible lies and extremely bigoted and hateful beliefs, would you want your name associated with that institution?

Yes, I was raised in the LDS church. It's the only lifestyle I've ever known. Kinda weird to be out.

I saw that resignation site that you linked to. It sounds like it sometimes works, but they sometimes just return the letter stating that it's a matter between the ex-member and the bishop. It linked to another site that recommends working with the bishop first. I'm going to do both.

I was oddly hoping they would excommunicate me. I dunno why, just seemed appropriate that I could be enough of a nuisance to them for them to have to take action. But The Wife counsels me not to be too outspoken, so despite dozens of visits many of the local Mormons still think I'm merely "inactive."

Originally Posted by OtakuLoki

Congratulations, and I'm glad to hear you're feeling so much peace from taking this step. Here's hoping that your resignation is treated with the same dignity and grace you've shown here.

All the best for you and your family.

Thanks to all for the support.

[OtakuLoki]

Congratulations, and I'm glad to hear you're feeling so much peace from taking this step. Here's hoping that your resignation is treated with the same dignity and grace you've shown here.

All the best for you and your family.

[TokyoBayer]

Congratulations. My sister is considering sending in a similar letter. She's pretty tired of getting tracked down after each move, and how they keep sending people after she's specifically said to not contact her. Since we grew up as Mormons we were taught the lies they feed the members.

I wouldn't have nearly the same issues with the church is they were simply honest about their history. You can even find Mormons on this board who whitewash doctrine they would prefer outsiders to not know about.

I haven't officially resigned because of the hassle of it. Until fairly recently, the Mormon church used to not simply allow people to resign and would hold church trials to excommunicate them instead. They were forced to change this policy after being sued. Since I don't know what Japanese courts would do and thus don't have as an effective threat of a lawsuit to make things go smoother, I haven't done it yet.

The missionaries used to keep coming around. This was when I was living in a different part of town, and someone from the States must have sent my address since I obviously didn't. I would tell them to go away, and to not contact me, only to have another set come 3 months later. This went on for several years.

I got home one night, very late, after a number of drinks at the local bar to find a message in my mail box from yet another new set on 19-year-old kids.

"Dear Brother Tokyo,

"We stopped by to see how you are. . . please call me at 555-1111.

"Signed Elder Whoever."

So I call him, at 1:30 am, and ask the sleepy voice on the other end for Elder Whoever. The proper response to getting a call in the middle of the night is to ask the caller if they are out of their fucking mind, but the boys are always personally pleasant. After a couple of minutes, and slightly more awake young voice comes on.

I introduce myself and tell him I got the note in my mailbox. He's remarkably cheery for being awaken in the middle of his sleep, and starts off on his spiel.

I ask if he knows that I have repeatedly requested to not be bothered. No, he doesn't. I'm listed as a member and he's new in the area.

I don't really like to be forced to be an asshole, and I was polite the first 20 times, but good god, enough is enough.

"Elder Whoever, listen very carefully to what I say. I have nicely requested, many, many times to be not contacted and I still get hassled. This has ended now. This is the last visit from you or anyone else.

"You need to tell both the local bishop and your mission president that I will take legal action if another missionary or member steps foot on this property. I will file a complaint with the police and will pursue civil action as well.

"Now Elder Whoever, do you have any questions?"

"No sir."

"Goodnight."

That ended the visits.

Rhodes, if you don't mind what started the doubts?

[ITR champion]

Allow me to add my congratulations. Just in case you, or anyone else, would like additional information about the issues surrounding Mormonism, I find this website to be the best source on the topic.

[jsgoddess]

One of the nice things about being an apostate from Catholicism is that I'm one of about 35 bazillion, so only my mom ever talks about it.

The thing that is most hopeful about your story, Rhodes, as that [The Wife] and you are on the same page. I can just imagine how difficult and scary it must have been to be honest with her, and how great of a relief it must be now.

[Rhodes]

Originally Posted by TokyoPlayer

Rhodes, if you don't mind what started the doubts?

Lots of things. I learned of the multiple conflicting accounts of the First Vision when I was in Institute. That teacher was semi-apostate after he was forced to participate in destroying original documents about the Mountain Meadows massacre. It had always bothered me that there were horses and steel and Hebrews in the Book of Mormon. And that so many Revelations in Doctrine and Covenants are no longer observed.

I had always wondered why non-Mormons weren't impressed with Joseph's translation of the Book of Abraham. My real studies began when I saw images from Egyptian funerary texts decorating a Mormon friend's living room. Those were supposed to be pictures of Abraham, but now I learned that they are Osiris.

So I made a list of topics to research. Book of Abraham. Book of Mormon archaeology. The whole Joseph Smith story. Mountain Meadows. Racism. The ever-changing Endowment. Polygamy. Efficacy of prayer. When I learned about Blood Atonement, I knew I could never believe in Mormonism again.

[pepperlandgirl]

Originally Posted by jsgoddess

One of the nice things about being an apostate from Catholicism is that I'm one of about 35 bazillion, so only my mom ever talks about it.

The thing that is most hopeful about your story, Rhodes, as that [The Wife] and you are on the same page. I can just imagine how difficult and scary it must have been to be honest with her, and how great of a relief it must be now.

Indeed. I've seen lots of stories of families who were torn apart because one spouse couldn't go on participating in the cult/church, and another remained active and faithful. For an organization that claims to care about families, it certainly has no problem wedging itself firmly between them.

Originally Posted by Rhodes

Lots of things. I learned of the multiple conflicting accounts of the First Vision when I was in Institute. That teacher was semi-apostate after he was forced to participate in destroying original documents about the Mountain Meadows massacre. It had always bothered me that there were horses and steel and Hebrews in the Book of Mormon. And that so many Revelations in Doctrine and Covenants are no longer observed.

I had always wondered why non-Mormons weren't impressed with Joseph's translation of the Book of Abraham. My real studies began when I saw images from Egyptian funerary texts decorating a Mormon friend's living room. Those were supposed to be pictures of Abraham, but now I learned that they are Osiris.

So I made a list of topics to research. Book of Abraham. Book of Mormon archaeology. The whole Joseph Smith story. Mountain Meadows. Racism. The ever-changing Endowment. Polygamy. Efficacy of prayer. When I learned about Blood Atonement, I knew I could never believe in Mormonism again.

Are you from Utah? I was raised in it, too, and I still find myself with certain beliefs/attitudes that I know aren't logical but come directly from all the indoctrination. It took me a really, really long time to get to the point that I would believe any of the truth about Joseph Smith, even though I've considered myself an atheist since the age of 19. When you end every testimony meeting with "And I know Joseph Smith was a prophet of God" and happily go along with all the veneration and nearly deification of the man, it's quite a terrible jolt to realize that yeah, the whole polygamy thing was about raping teenage girls. And oh yeah, the night he was tarred and feathered (allowing that events more or less happened that way) it was because he got caught with a 12 year old girl.

I know the Endowment ceremony has changed now, but that's fairly recently. When I think about all the people who went through it and walked out with an increased faith in God, despite all the utter ridiculousness including feeling up the women and the miming of evisceration, and I wonder how people calmly accepted that for years and years. The more distance I get from all the doctrine and practices (not to mention the hatemongering) the more stunned I am that the LDS church is a real thing, and furthermore, half of my family believes in it completely.

[jsgoddess]

Originally Posted by pepperlandgirl

Indeed. I've seen lots of stories of families who were torn apart because one spouse couldn't go on participating in the cult/church, and another remained active and faithful. For an organization that claims to care about families, it certainly has no problem wedging itself firmly between them.

Well, to be fair to the LDS, I think any strongly-held belief can interfere with the smooth operation of a marriage. I laugh to look back on it, but when I met my husband I was a lapsed Catholic and he was an atheist. I told him we couldn't really move forward because I couldn't marry an atheist. I just knew that someday I would be able to get back into Catholicism and it would all click for me and I would no longer be made uncomfortable by the very idea of religious observance. I was just being immature and lazy or something.

We got married anyway. After a couple of years, I realized I was also an atheist. He had never tried to make it a big deal, and neither Catholicism nor atheism were actively trying to get in between us, but it was still a rift. A minor, temporary one as it turned out!

[gallows fodder]

Originally Posted by pepperlandgirl

I know the Endowment ceremony has changed now, but that's fairly recently. When I think about all the people who went through it and walked out with an increased faith in God, despite all the utter ridiculousness including feeling up the women and the miming of evisceration, and I wonder how people calmly accepted that for years and years.

Can you elaborate on this? That sounds like something out of a d-grade horror movie.

Originally Posted by Rhodes

If we decide that we need the social structure, we will consider the Unitarian Universalists (or is it Universal Unitarians?). I saw on Wikipedia that they identify more with atheism, agnosticism, and humanism that with Christianity. Sounds like they would be interesting and not too pushy with the supernatural bullshit. We'll check them out sometime when The Wife is not working a weekend night shift.

But regarldless of what social club we join, I am firmly decided on atheism and my wife is slipping from some vague deism to atheism.

For what it's worth, my mom used to go to a UU church in Boston, and their minister himself was an atheist. It was more a place for people to gather as a community to discuss social justice issues than to practice a faith (although they also included prayers and hymns in their services, when they were suggested by members of the congregation).

[Rhodes]

Originally Posted by gallows fodder

Can you elaborate on this? That sounds like something out of a d-grade horror movie.

The ceremonies were plagiarized from Freemasonry. They were cleaned up somewhat in 1990, but prior to that time there were gruesome Penalties that they mimed for revealing the secret passwords and handshakes that get you into heaven.

[Erdosain]

Originally Posted by gallows fodder

Can you elaborate on this? That sounds like something out of a d-grade horror movie.

There are certain ceremonies that are secret and performed only in the fancy temples. You learn handshakes and gestures (that are nearly identical to the secret handshakes and gestures performed by masons) that you are sworn to secrecy about them and their meaning.

Up until 1990, you also had to also mime disemboweling yourself and cutting your own throat if you ever revealed the secret symbols and tokens. I believe this is also standard practice in the masonic ceremonies. The Mormon Church changed it in 1990, probably because it was so creepy.

There is another ceremony performed in the temples called "Washing and Anointing." Basically, you are naked except for a poncho-type thing that hangs in front and behind you. The person (usually a really old guy for the men or a really old woman for the women) basically wipes water on your forehead, neck, stomach, legs, chest, etc. and then repeats the whole thing again, only wiping a little oil on your stomach, legs, chest, etc.

You're not really completely exposed, but it is really uncomfortable being semi-nude and getting touched somewhat intimately by a stranger. Anyway, the Mormon church changed this in 2005, again, probably because it creeped people out. Most other members I knew weren't too fond of this ceremony.

[F. U. Shakespeare]

A colleague of mine was raised in the LDS faith, did a mission, etc. When he graduated from BYU and landed a job, he says he started thinking for himself about stuff. It was different when he didn't have to depend on anyone else materially.

When he was in the process of withdrawing from the Church, and being besieged with communications from the Church, he finally responded to one that asked him to write some declaratory statements.

(I think he basically had to say he was no longer Christian, which wasn't a problem because he had become agnostic).

He happened to be reading his mail in a bar,so he wrote said response on a cocktail napkin.

He didn't hear back from the Church anymore.

[LouisB]

I have a question concerning being summoned by "a court" prior to excommunication. What would happen if you simply refused to answer the 'summons?'

I worked with a Mormon years ago; he came to work one morning in an absolute rage because he had been 'billed' for ten percent of his income. The bill cited his previous year's total income, down to the penny, including income from part time work away from his principal employment. He maintained they had acquired his W-2 forms. Would that be possible? Or legal? How would any church obtain that information?

[pepperlandgirl]

Originally Posted by LouisB

I have a question concerning being summoned by "a court" prior to excommunication. What would happen if you simply refused to answer the 'summons?'

I worked with a Mormon years ago; he came to work one morning in an absolute rage because he had been 'billed' for ten percent of his income. The bill cited his previous year's total income, down to the penny, including income from part time work away from his principal employment. He maintained they had acquired his W-2 forms. Would that be possible? Or legal? How would any church obtain that information?

I don't know how he got the tax info, but every member is expected to bring their personal information to the bishop once a year to "settle" their tithe. 10% of your income isn't like some suggested donation--they seriously want that money and they expect you to prove that you've handed it over. When the very logical "But I can't afford to eat without that money" argument is offered, they convince the sheep that God will provide if they only make this small sacrifice. Shockingly, God doesn't provide for all of them, but they still send in their money, only a small, small percentage of which goes to any sort of charitable or relief purposes. The rest goes to the church coffers so they can do things like support Prop 8 and buy most of downtown SLC.

[Crafter_Man]

The Church of LDS is hardly unique. Just about every major religion has a closet full of skeletons.

Originally Posted by jsgoddess

One of the nice things about being an apostate from Catholicism is that I'm one of about 35 bazillion, so only my mom ever talks about it.

I was born and raised Roman Catholic. Went to twelve years of parochial school, got the T-shirt, etc. I now look back and realize so much of it was BS.

While I'm not an atheist, I despise organized religion. When you strip away all the BS, you discover it's nothing more than people trying to control other people. I don't like to be controlled.

[Rhodes]

Originally Posted by jsgoddess

One of the nice things about being an apostate from Catholicism is that I'm one of about 35 bazillion, so only my mom ever talks about it.

The thing that is most hopeful about your story, Rhodes, as that [The Wife] and you are on the same page. I can just imagine how difficult and scary it must have been to be honest with her, and how great of a relief it must be now.

I wasn't completely honest with her at first. I was scared shitless. People get divorced over their religious differences. Or if they stay together, they are miserable. Only in my wildest fantasies would my wife become apostate with me.

But I knew I had to tell her by the end of 2009. She was setting up Temple Recommend interviews for us, and I was not going to pass. Also, Tithing Settlement was going to be a problem. I was done sending money to an organization that calls Brigham Young a prophet. Then she noticed on her own that she hadn't seen me pay tithing all year.

She read my research notes, we had lots of deep talks, she did a bit of research herself, and she agreed.

[jsgoddess]

Originally Posted by Rhodes

I wasn't completely honest with her at first. I was scared shitless. People get divorced over their religious differences. Or if they stay together, they are miserable. Only in my wildest fantasies would my wife become apostate with me.

But I knew I had to tell her by the end of 2009. She was setting up Temple Recommend interviews for us, and I was not going to pass. Also, Tithing Settlement was going to be a problem. I was done sending money to an organization that calls Brigham Young a prophet. Then she noticed on her own that she hadn't seen me pay tithing all year.

She read my research notes, we had lots of deep talks, she did a bit of research herself, and she agreed.

Did you start a thread about it before you told her? I remember someone with a similar fear.

Did she have some doubts before you came out? (Sorry if I'm being really nosy.)

[Stoid]

LDS is one crazyass religion, but the promises made by the theology are incredibly seductive, so I understand the appeal.

I admire your decision and your forthrightness in expressing it. I applaud and congratulate you.

[Stoid]

My favorite part of the Mormon belief system is the end goal: y'all get to become gods and have your own planets. Neat.

[Rhodes]

Originally Posted by LouisB

I have a question concerning being summoned by "a court" prior to excommunication. What would happen if you simply refused to answer the 'summons?'

I worked with a Mormon years ago; he came to work one morning in an absolute rage because he had been 'billed' for ten percent of his income. The bill cited his previous year's total income, down to the penny, including income from part time work away from his principal employment. He maintained they had acquired his W-2 forms. Would that be possible? Or legal? How would any church obtain that information?

I suspect that if someone refuses to answer the summons, the excommunication will proceed without the apostate defending himself. I will go if I am summoned, and would gladly accept excommunication as a badge if honor.

I've never heard of someone being "billed" for tithing. But a friend who didn't know I was apostate sent me an email with instructions to conveniently direct-deposit my 10%.

[Rhodes]

Originally Posted by jsgoddess

Did you start a thread about it before you told her? I remember someone with a similar fear.

Did she have some doubts before you came out? (Sorry if I'm being really nosy.)

Skald had a thread about it when his wife divorced him for their religious differences. I posted in his thread that I was an apostate hiding from my wife. To some extent, it's the ex-Mrs-Skald's fault that I remained in hiding for so long.

[Skald the Rhymer]

Originally Posted by Rhodes

Skald had a thread about it when his wife divorced him for their religious differences. I posted in his thread that I was an apostate hiding from my wife. To some extent, it's the ex-Mrs-Skald's fault that I remained in hiding for so long.

She didn't divorce me; she just left. And we reconciled.

[Rhodes]

Originally Posted by Skald the Rhymer

She didn't divorce me; she just left. And we reconciled.

Oops. Sorry for misrepresenting your situation.

I am thrilled to learn that you have reconciled. Even though I don't know you, I really felt bad for your loss. And I've even felt a bit of guilt sometimes that my situation had worked out so well while yours (as far as I knew) had not, even though you apparently had been honest with your wife and I had waited for my wife to bust me.

Congratulations for working it out.

[Rhodes]

If she had doubts, they were well concealed. She was uncomfortable with polygamy and disagreed with Prop 8, but she was otherwise the perfect undoubting Mormon housewife.

[EvilTOJ]

*checks to see if Rhodes is in Utah*

*Rhodes is not*

Whew! Dodged a bullet there! If you lived in Utah you'd be forced to move. Seriously. It's like once you leave, you're Shunned. No one will talk to you outside of pleasantries. I lived in Utah for most of my childhood and I had many ex-Mormon friends, specifically because their Mormon "friends" stopped associating with them after they announced they were leaving the church.

Now that you've left, have you thought about going to a different church or are you going the agnostic/atheist route?

[Rhodes]

Originally Posted by EvilTOJ

*checks to see if Rhodes is in Utah*

*Rhodes is not*

Whew! Dodged a bullet there! If you lived in Utah you'd be forced to move. Seriously. It's like once you leave, you're Shunned. No one will talk to you outside of pleasantries. I lived in Utah for most of my childhood and I had many ex-Mormon friends, specifically because their Mormon "friends" stopped associating with them after they announced they were leaving the church.

Now that you've left, have you thought about going to a different church or are you going the agnostic/atheist route?

True. This process would have been more difficult if we still lived in Utah. The Wife persuaded me to take a job in Texas in mid 2008. So when we distanced ourselves from the LDS church in late 2009, we were able to do so without having to put up with criticism from our Utard friends and families. After we had some time to get used to the changes, and before a summer visit to family in Utah, we made an announcement to all of our friends and family. There's been a lot of crying, and my nutty brother jumped on the next plane to Texas to try to fix things, but overall people have been pretty understanding.

Before my wife had decided to leave the church, we planned to keep attending for the kids' sake. Even when she learned that the LDS church was false, we tried for a few weeks to act as if nothing had changed. But we felt like frauds, pretending to be believers. And it was just not right for us to continue in our assignment teaching the 5-year-olds.

The kids attended a Methodist preschool who waived tuition when I lost my job. So we considered joining them out of gratitude. By then, I was nearly decided as an atheist and my wife, while still trying to believe in a God, had rejected any form of belief in the OT Yahweh. So the Methodists would have been a good community, a good support group, and a good source of moral instruction for the kids. But we decided that it would be better for the kids to learn morality for morality's sake, not morality to impress a wrathful God. So we decided to avoid religion altogether.

If we decide that we need the social structure, we will consider the Unitarian Universalists (or is it Universal Unitarians?). I saw on Wikipedia that they identify more with atheism, agnosticism, and humanism that with Christianity. Sounds like they would be interesting and not too pushy with the supernatural bullshit. We'll check them out sometime when The Wife is not working a weekend night shift.

But regarldless of what social club we join, I am firmly decided on atheism and my wife is slipping from some vague deism to atheism.

[Stoid]

Originally Posted by Rhodes

But we decided that it would be better for the kids to learn morality for morality's sake, not morality to impress a wrathful God.

You are giving your children the best possible gift, and doing the world a favor. The most genuinely moral people I have ever known or known of were raised without religion.

[Dangerosa]

Originally Posted by Rhodes

If we decide that we need the social structure, we will consider the Unitarian Universalists (or is it Universal Unitarians?). I saw on Wikipedia that they identify more with atheism, agnosticism, and humanism that with Christianity. Sounds like they would be interesting and not too pushy with the supernatural bullshit. We'll check them out sometime when The Wife is not working a weekend night shift.

There are a few UUs on the board (myself included). UU churches are different - sort of in the polar opposite way that LDS churches are different. Some congregations are very Christian, some are much more humanist (my minister is an agnostic, but as we have an excellent choir, we tend to sing a lot of hymns) - most are pretty darn socially liberal. But they can provide a community and structure. And they also have pretty good Religious Education programs - generally where your kids will learn a little about Christianity next to the little they learn about Buddhism, Islam and Judaism. (Christianity tends to be taught a little more - after all - we are a Judeo-Christian society). If you have questions, ask. If there is more than one congregation near you, check them all out.

[hamster]

I live in SLC now, in a house 3 doors down from a temple or church or whatever the LDS are calling them, and they have not bugged me at all for the past 3 years. It's kind of odd: living here, they just let you be, assuming you have already drank the Koolaid.

I never intended to end up in Utah, but sometimes a job happens, ya know? Growing up, I was baptised southern baptist, but I managed to get out of that pretty quickly. For years I told people I was agnostic, just out of respect for their beliefs, but over the last 10 years or so, I've become much more militant atheist. Right now, I profess to be a Discordian, if only because the best way to ward off someone looking to convert you is to attempt a counter-convert

I have some friends here who are either Mormon or getting out. I'm still trying to get a handle on the culture here, and don't even get me started on how much the dating scene sucks

I'm glad you have been able to get out, and I hope they don't bother you anymore.

[Ann Onimous]

Wow. What a PITA to have to jump through all those hoops to resign from a church. I'll keep your family in my thoughts and prayers as you decide what to do next.

ETA: Okay, I see what you have decided to do next. I'll still send good thoughts and prayers for you, and hope everything works out for the best for you. I hope they take that letter seriously and leave you alone. I also hope that they rethink their procedures for leaving. That stinks.

[aruvqan]

Originally Posted by Ann Onimous

I also hope that they rethink their procedures for leaving. That stinks.

Good luck on that ... we are talking about a group that is *unusual*

Heck, I found out recently that I was "married" to and baptised by an ex boyfriend. i am thrilled he doesn't want me to burn, but it would have been nice to have been asked first.

[Ann Onimous]

Originally Posted by aruvqan

Good luck on that ... we are talking about a group that is *unusual*

Heck, I found out recently that I was "married" to and baptised by an ex boyfriend. i am thrilled he doesn't want me to burn, but it would have been nice to have been asked first.

This is true: they are extremely unusual. I can hope, though.

And I think I would not be happy if I found out someone had been baptized for me. I have been baptized, and I believe my baptism was good enough.

[Erdosain]

Congratulations, Rhodes... although I wouldn't call it closure until you get your final letter from Greg Dodge! (You get a letter from Church HQ Member Records division.)

I resigned a couple of years ago when I found out my wife was pregnant. Like you, I baptized way too many nine-year-olds on my mission and vowed I'd never have missionaries coming over and eyeing my children and wife as potential converts.

If you have any trouble with your stake president, one call to Greg Dodge in Member Services usually gets the ball rolling fast. He was very nice when I had to call.

[Onomatopoeia]

Congratulations Rhodes. It cannot have been easy for you and your wife to make the decisions you did and actually follow through with it.

What I know about Mormonism probably wouldn't even cover the head of a pin, so I'm not sure about its dovetail points with mainstream Christianity, however, I do find it humorous when Protestants, or members of the various other flavors of Christianity popular in America, deride Mormons as though theirs, with its more than 2000 years of nonsensical wackyness, is somehow superior.

[astro]

Originally Posted by Onomatopoeia

Congratulations Rhodes. It cannot have been easy for you and your wife to make the decisions you did and actually follow through with it.

What I know about Mormonism probably wouldn't even cover the head of a pin, so I'm not sure about its dovetail points with mainstream Christianity, however, I do find it humorous when Protestants, or members of the various other flavors of Christianity popular in America, deride Mormons as though theirs, with its more than 2000 years of nonsensical wackyness, is somehow superior.

An astute observation.

[RTFirefly]

Originally Posted by Onomatopoeia

however, I do find it humorous when Protestants, or members of the various other flavors of Christianity popular in America, deride Mormons as though theirs, with its more than 2000 years of nonsensical wackyness, is somehow superior.

Hey, we've at least got no problem with people drinking coffee.

[Hari Seldon]

My brother was an atheist, but his wife, a devout Catholic, never, ever realized it. We would occasionally discuss it. The night he died, she claims and angel appeared at his bedside. I don't know how they lived that way, but somehow they managed.

I have known hardly any Mormons, nor anything about the sect save for their rather far right political views, but I congratulate anyone, atheist or not, who realizes that the benefits of organized religion accrue mainly to the organizers. (That's not original with me, but I don't know who said it first.)

[Rhodes]

Originally Posted by aruvqan

...
Heck, I found out recently that I was "married" to and baptised by an ex boyfriend. i am thrilled he doesn't want me to burn, but it would have been nice to have been asked first.

Hey that's weird but pretty cool. But how did he manage to do proxy ordinances for you? Are you officially dead? Or 110 years old (the age at which the LDS assume you're most certainly dead and therefore ready for proxy baptism)?

[aruvqan]

Originally Posted by Rhodes

Hey that's weird but pretty cool. But how did he manage to do proxy ordinances for you? Are you officially dead? Or 110 years old (the age at which the LDS assume you're most certainly dead and therefore ready for proxy baptism)?

Lied through his teeth, I guess. I had been extremely ill during and after I broke up with him, and everybody we mutually knew were aware how deathly ill I was. I think I spent a total of 5 months in the ICU that time around. He may very well have been able to convince the proper people that I was dead. There certainly were times that the hospital called my parents in because they were convinced I wouldn't make it through the night.

I don't so much mind the baptism part, but the sealing bit offended me. If I broke up with him, what would give him the idea that I would like to spend eternity with him?

[Rhodes]

Greg Dodge sounds like a pretty reasonable guy. Apparently some people have been able to resign recently simply by sending him an email. I was unaware that he's reachable by phone too. I'll wait a few days for the bishop or stake pres to respond, and if I don't hear from them I'll give Dodge a call. Thanks for the info!

[Rhodes]

I just sent a follow-up email:

Bishop [my bishop]:

This email is a follow-up to the signed resignation letter that hopefully arrived in your mail today. A copy is attached just in case. Please let us know when it has been processed.

[The Wife] and I mean no offense by resigning. It is best for all to bring closure to the whole affair.

Thanks,

[My Full Name] and family
[My address]

cc: [The Wife's Full Name], fellow apostate
Pres. [Stake Pres], [the local LDS] Stake
Greg Dodge, Member Records Division

[Rhodes]

Originally Posted by Stoid

You are giving your children the best possible gift, and doing the world a favor. The most genuinely moral people I have ever known or known of were raised without religion.

Thanks. I'm really flattered. A whole lotta people, whether LDS, inactive LDS, or non-LDS, have expressed their concern that my kids will be amoral if raised in a non-religious environment. It's nice to hear some support.