Things artist say about their work you don't believe

[installLSC]

I was listening to Jethro Tull's "Thick As A Brick" album today and was reminded that frontman and lyricist Ian Anderson has long denied that it's a concept album. The odd thing is that when I read the lyrics I swear it's a relatively straightforward song about how society and its wars harms a sensitive man, much in the vein of Pink Floyd's "The Wall". What things has an artist said about one of their works that make you say "I don't believe that for a second"?

[etv78]

John Lennon's contention that "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds" was based on a drawing by one of his kids. It's pretty clear it's about an acid trip. (not to be an ass but don't bother with a cite confirming the kid picture story)

[WhyNot]

Tolkien's claim that his works have “no allegorical intentions …, moral, religious, or political..." Riiiiiiiight. And I've got a shiny new ring to sell you.

[runner pat]

Thomas Kinkade: I am a serious artist.

[Miller]

Originally Posted by WhyNot

Tolkien's claim that his works have “no allegorical intentions …, moral, religious, or political..." Riiiiiiiight. And I've got a shiny new ring to sell you.

This one I believe. Tolkien was using a much more rigid definition for "allegory" then is common today. Nowadays, people use the term to mean, "kind of metaphorical." In Tolkien's day, an allegory was as story in which every element had a one-to-one correspondence with some facet of a moral lesson the artist was attempting to communicate, and putting across that lesson was the primary purpose of the work. I don't think Tolkien ever denied that aspects of his story were inspired or influenced by his own experiences in WWI, or the events of WWII as he was writing it, but that's not the same thing as a proper allegory.

Now, when he said Leaf by Niggle wasn't an allegory, that was a load of crap.

[Promethea]

I listened to a documentary on Radio 1 in the '90s in which Paul McCartney explained to the interviewer that nope, when Wings released Mary Had A Little Lamb as a follow up to Give Ireland Back to the Irish (which had been banned by the BBC) that it had been NO WAY a commentary on the banning. Paul went on about how it was just a cute tune that happened to be in the form of a nursery rhyme. Suuuure. Own it, Paul - it was one of pop music's cleverer responses to a radio banning.

[Reno Nevada]

Originally Posted by Miller

This one I believe. Tolkien was using a much more rigid definition for "allegory" then is common today. Nowadays, people use the term to mean, "kind of metaphorical." In Tolkien's day, an allegory was as story in which every element had a one-to-one correspondence with some facet of a moral lesson the artist was attempting to communicate, and putting across that lesson was the primary purpose of the work. I don't think Tolkien ever denied that aspects of his story were inspired or influenced by his own experiences in WWI, or the events of WWII as he was writing it, but that's not the same thing as a proper allegory.

Now, when he said Leaf by Niggle wasn't an allegory, that was a load of crap.

In Tolkien's day, and still today if you happen to be talking to a professor of Middle English at Oxford, an allegory is a story where the characters are direct representations of abstract concepts. By saying that Lord of the Rings "is not an allegory", Tolkien meant that Frodo did not represent Perseverance, Merry did not represent Adolescence, and Saruman did not represent Fear of Cheese--they were characters reacting to events in a reasonably realistic fashion.

I have not read Leaf by Niggle recently enough to know if there was actually an allegory there, or simply a metaphorical representation of life in a totalitarian state.

[Mr. Excellent]

Originally Posted by WhyNot

Tolkien's claim that his works have “no allegorical intentions …, moral, religious, or political..." Riiiiiiiight. And I've got a shiny new ring to sell you.

That ring is shiny! I ... wantssss it. My preciousssss...

[ZipperJJ]

Originally Posted by etv78

John Lennon's contention that "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds" was based on a drawing by one of his kids. It's pretty clear it's about an acid trip. (not to be an ass but don't bother with a cite confirming the kid picture story)

Hahaha I came in to say this. I was just thinking about it the other night, for no apparent reason.

[Lobohan]

George Lucas says he had the prequel trilogy planned out from the get-go. Bullshit.

[etv78]

Originally Posted by Lobohan

George Lucas says he had the prequel trilogy planned out from the get-go. Bullshit.

He's NEVER given a consistent answer of # of movies he wanted in the Star Wars saga. As low as 3, as high as 9 have been his answers.

[panamajack]

Originally Posted by etv78

John Lennon's contention that "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds" was based on a drawing by one of his kids. It's pretty clear it's about an acid trip. (not to be an ass but don't bother with a cite confirming the kid picture story)

Are you saying you disbelieve John & Julian's story, or that you think the song is about an acid trip despite the origin of its name? Because I think I can get behind the second.

[etv78]

Originally Posted by panamajack

Are you saying you disbelieve John & Julian's story, or that you think the song is about an acid trip despite the origin of its name? Because I think I can get behind the second.

I rather doubt the picture would be based on Julian's acid trip.

[Sam A. Robrin]

Originally Posted by panamajack

Are you saying you disbelieve John & Julian's story, or that you think the song is about an acid trip despite the origin of its name? Because I think I can get behind the second.

I also came in to cite this one, and I've always believed Lennon was waiting for his old age to finally say "Of course it was about LSD, who could possibly believe that bullshit I've been saying for all these years?"

[Miller]

I always kind of figured that Julian did have a drawing he called "Lucy in the sky with diamonds," and Lennon took the title, and wrote a song about LSD using that phrase as a title.

[etv78]

Originally Posted by Miller

I always kind of figured that Julian did have a drawing he called "Lucy in the sky with diamonds," and Lennon took the title, and wrote a song about LSD using that phrase as a title.

That's sound plausible.

[panamajack]

Originally Posted by Miller

I always kind of figured that Julian did have a drawing he called "Lucy in the sky with diamonds," and Lennon took the title, and wrote a song about LSD using that phrase as a title.

I thought etv78 didn't want links because he was aware of it, but yes, the picture in question and Lucy were real. If you look at it, it hardly explains the whole song, and I think it likely it was about a drug trip. But I happen to think the "L-S-D" was coincidental.

[Two Many Cats]

Was it in So Long, and Thanks for all the Fish that Douglas Adams had Arthur Dent tell Fenny a story about some stranger eating cookies out of Arthur's cookie package at some train station or something, and Arthur defiantly eating his own cookies out of the package to show the guy up? And then, it turns out that it wasn't Arthur's cookie package at all, but it belonged to the stranger who didn't say a word about Arthur eating his cookies?

Douglas Adams claimed that it was a story that really happened to him.

Actually, the story is an urban legend descended from the similar story of the jogger's stolen wallet.

I had respect for Douglas Adams before I heard about him claiming that.

[Thudlow Boink]

Originally Posted by Two Many Cats

Was it in So Long, and Thanks for all the Fish that Douglas Adams had Arthur Dent tell Fenny a story about some stranger eating cookies out of Arthur's cookie package at some train station or something, and Arthur defiantly eating his own cookies out of the package to show the guy up? And then, it turns out that it wasn't Arthur's cookie package at all, but it belonged to the stranger who didn't say a word about Arthur eating his cookies?

Douglas Adams claimed that it was a story that really happened to him.

Actually, the story is an urban legend descended from the similar story of the jogger's stolen wallet.

I had respect for Douglas Adams before I heard about him claiming that.

I remember seeing Adams tell this story, I think on Late Night with David Letterman, as something that happened to him. Snopes has a page on this sort of incident, which notes that "His claim is doubted by many who point out the self-same tale was around years prior to that, but it is not impossible for events in real life to mimic those of lore. (Indeed, the actual folkloric term for such an event is ostension.) In any case, whether the incident happened to him or not, it is clear the legend did not begin with him."

[Irishman]

Originally Posted by installLSC

I was listening to Jethro Tull's "Thick As A Brick" album today and was reminded that frontman and lyricist Ian Anderson has long denied that it's a concept album.

What's a "concept album", and why would that be required for his song to be as described?

Originally Posted by Two Many Cats

Douglas Adams claimed that it was a story that really happened to him.

Actually, the story is an urban legend descended from the similar story of the jogger's stolen wallet.

I had respect for Douglas Adams before I heard about him claiming that.

It is possible, and even mildly plausible, and an incident like this did happen to Douglas Adams. It's not a particularly strange tale, and it is entirely conceivable you can see someone with something you just had in your possession and think they got it from you. Hell, I've had situations like that occur. For it to be a package of cookies and he ate some thinking the other person was the rude one, well, plausible.

Originally Posted by Chronos

Me, I'm going to nominate Heinlein's Starship Troopers. Heinlein claimed in letters written years later that the military was not the only path to citizenship in the book; that any sort of civic service (delivering mail, say) would also qualify. But that's flatly contradicted by the book: If you couldn't cut it in the infantry, then there was nothing left but testing experimental spacesuits on Titan, or other creative ways of committing suicide.

Seconded. He wouldn't even count some of the activities performed for the military - positions like clerical jobs weren't held by soldiers, but by civilian auxiliaries. Those jobs didn't count for citizenship. It was clearly more than service that was required, it was service that put your life at risk for the greater good. Postman just doesn't fit that description.

[HeyHomie]

The Vapors insist that Turning Japanese is not about masturbation. Riiigggghhhht.

Similarly, The Violent Femmes insist that Blister in the Sun is not about masturbation. Riigggghhhht.

At least Cindi Lauper admist freely that She Bop is, actually, for realz, about masturbation.

And then there's Dizzy Gillespie's claim that "I believe be-bop will help bring about world peace." OK Dizzy, thanks for that. Dizzy's been dead for almost 20 years, and world peace still hasn't happened yet, but I'm sure that someday the sound of someone torturing a saxophone will actually get people to stop going to war.

[Anamorphic]

Originally Posted by HeyHomie

Similarly, The Violent Femmes insist that Blister in the Sun is not about masturbation. Riigggghhhht.

What do they claim it's about? I admit I've never really studied the lyrics closely, but I've always kind of assumed it was about heroin.

[Superdude]

Originally Posted by Irishman

What's a "concept album", and why would that be required for his song to be as described?

Concept album. Famous examples include Queensryche's Operation:Mindcrime (parts 1 and 2), and Styx's Kilroy Was Here and Paradise Theater.

[Chronos]

I have not read Leaf by Niggle recently enough to know if there was actually an allegory there, or simply a metaphorical representation of life in a totalitarian state.

There was no state presence at all in "Niggle". You must be getting it mixed up with some other story. And even by Tolkien's strict definition of "allegory", it's still clearly allegorical (certainly more so than Lewis's works, which Tolkien complained about as too allegorical).

Me, I'm going to nominate Heinlein's Starship Troopers. Heinlein claimed in letters written years later that the military was not the only path to citizenship in the book; that any sort of civic service (delivering mail, say) would also qualify. But that's flatly contradicted by the book: If you couldn't cut it in the infantry, then there was nothing left but testing experimental spacesuits on Titan, or other creative ways of committing suicide.

[bump]

Originally Posted by Chronos

Me, I'm going to nominate Heinlein's Starship Troopers. Heinlein claimed in letters written years later that the military was not the only path to citizenship in the book; that any sort of civic service (delivering mail, say) would also qualify. But that's flatly contradicted by the book: If you couldn't cut it in the infantry, then there was nothing left but testing experimental spacesuits on Titan, or other creative ways of committing suicide.

Sure, but the book itself contradicts that interpretation. Johnny's friend Carl was doing some kind of electronics research on Pluto when the Bugs hit it. Nowhere in there was there any indication that Carl's research was inherently dangerous.

Also, the bit about counting the caterpillar fuzz if you're blind and deaf doesn't imply risk, just the willingness to serve.

I got the exact opposite impression from you guys; I had the impression that the MI was a VERY small part of the Federal service hierarchy, but the most classically military of them all.

[Grumman]

Originally Posted by Chronos

Me, I'm going to nominate Heinlein's Starship Troopers. Heinlein claimed in letters written years later that the military was not the only path to citizenship in the book; that any sort of civic service (delivering mail, say) would also qualify. But that's flatly contradicted by the book: If you couldn't cut it in the infantry, then there was nothing left but testing experimental spacesuits on Titan, or other creative ways of committing suicide.

It's been a while since I read the book, but weren't the people in charge of recruitment deliberately making the path to citizenship sound worse than it really was? The wounded recruitment officer who only wore his prosthetic leg off-duty wasn't one of Verhoeven's additions, was he?

[Lemur866]

Originally Posted by Grumman

It's been a while since I read the book, but weren't the people in charge of recruitment deliberately making the path to citizenship sound worse than it really was? The wounded recruitment officer who only wore his prosthetic leg off-duty wasn't one of Verhoeven's additions, was he?

No, that's in the book. The recruiting officer sits there with one arm and one leg to scare off the Momma's boys. Later, after Johnny signs up he happens to run into the recruiting officer again and doesn't recognize him at first because he's using his prosthetic leg and arm. A minute later Johnny realizes he shook the officer's prosthetic hand and didn't know it at the time.

[Sitnam]

I serious doubt Jackson Pollock and Andy Warhol's emotional sincerity.

[K364]

Originally Posted by Sitnam

I serious doubt Jackson Pollock and Andy Warhol's emotional sincerity.

You think they are putting us on? I used to think so about JP... dripping paint from a catwalk onto a tarp on the floor was a big joke. Until I saw "Autumn Rhythm" at the Met Museum. It's the real deal, quite impressive.

[Nobody]

I won't say I out and out disbelieve Bryan Adams when he says "Summer of 69" is about the sex act. But I have my doubts.

[panamajack]

Originally Posted by Nobody

I won't say I out and out disbelieve Bryan Adams when he says "Summer of 69" is about the sex act. But I have my doubts.

He wasn't the only one who worked on the song, so he doesn't have the last word on it. For Adams, 1975 or so would have been the right year if it was by years. For co-writer Jim Vallance, 1969 would have made more sense, and it's his claim that it's the year. There's an (apparently apocryphal which I once thought to be true) story that Adams had originally wanted it to be set in '75, and the "Baby Boomer record company" forced him to change it. I'd be interested if there's any truth in that - it may be why Adams made up the 69 story.

[Nobody]

Yeah, I didn't hear about the name change, but watching Pop up Vido a long time ago it mentioned that Adams would have been too young, but Vallance would have been the right age.

[pulykamell]

Originally Posted by K364

You think they are putting us on? I used to think so about JP... dripping paint from a catwalk onto a tarp on the floor was a big joke. Until I saw "Autumn Rhythm" at the Met Museum. It's the real deal, quite impressive.

I can't really defend Warhol--he's not really my cup of tea--but if Pollack is not "emotionally sincere," fine. All I know is, his work hits me right in the gut. It's sublime in every sense of the word.

[Miller]

Originally Posted by Sitnam

I serious doubt Jackson Pollock and Andy Warhol's emotional sincerity.

I stand with pulykamell on Jackson Pollock, but for Andy Warhol, I always thought emotional insincerity was the entire point of what he was doing.

[PlainJain]

Originally Posted by Sitnam

I serious doubt Jackson Pollock and Andy Warhol's emotional sincerity.

I'm not an expert on Warhol but in every interview with him I've seen, he's denied emotional sincerity.



.

[Smapti]

Neil Peart insists the song The Trees is just a silly little ditty about trees fighting each other, and that it's not a parable for the tyranny of the mediocre that's so feared in Objectivism.

Given that just about every other song he wrote in that period was Ayn Rand fanfic, this comes off as hard to believe.

[Eonwe]

I so don't think that song is about me.

[LateComer]

Originally Posted by installLSC

I was listening to Jethro Tull's "Thick As A Brick" album today and was reminded that frontman and lyricist Ian Anderson has long denied that it's a concept album. The odd thing is that when I read the lyrics I swear it's a relatively straightforward song about how society and its wars harms a sensitive man, much in the vein of Pink Floyd's "The Wall". What things has an artist said about one of their works that make you say "I don't believe that for a second"?

I think you're mixing up 2 albums: Thick as a Brick was concieved as a send up of a progrock concept album in response to critics calling Aqualung a "concept" album. Relevent quote:

Band leader Ian Anderson was surprised by the critical reaction to Aqualung as a "concept album", a label he's firmly rejected to this day. In an interview on In the Studio with Redbeard (which spotlighted Thick as a Brick), Ian Anderson's response to the critics was: "If the critics want a concept album we'll give the mother of all concept albums and we'll make it so bombastic and so over the top."

Also, I don't believe that Richard Thompson's Here Comes Geordie is not about Sting despite the denials.

[MPB in Salt Lake]

Originally Posted by LateComer

Also, I don't believe that Richard Thompson's Here Comes Geordie is not about Sting despite the denials.

Though I am not much of a fan of Richard Thompson's music, and while I am a huge fan of the Police's stuff (I am lukewarm on most of Sting's solo efforts, some is quite good, some is dreadful) I think that these lyrics characterize Sting and his oversize ego to a T.

It is clearly, obviously, unmistakably about Sting.

[Lemur866]

Originally Posted by MPB in Salt Lake

It is clearly, obviously, unmistakably about Sting.

You Know, I Used To Be Kind Of Cool Once

[Derleth]

Fahrenheit 451 damned well ought to be about censorship, regardless of what Bradbury says. It's interesting and relevant when it's about the cultural self-censorship that comes of not being willing to offend anyone in the pursuit of artistic value. It makes sense when it's interpreted that way.

But Bradbury says it's about the evils of technology. It's a damned Luddite polemic and, even though it still makes sense in that light, it shouldn't be viewed like that. That interpretation guts the story and leaves it as pointless as any other idiot maundering about how things were better in some fictional Arcadia that can only just barely exist when an intelligent person is no older than twelve.

All authors are dead. Bradbury had the damnfool notion to commit suicide.

[Sampiro]

Speaking of LSD, Tina Turner claims she had no idea what "acid" was when she sang Acid Queen in the movie version of The Who's Tommy. I find this hard to believe as she's not a stupid woman, she had been in the rock scene for well over a decade, and she'd even opened and toured with The Rolling Stones. She may never have taken acid but no possible way she didn't know what it was.

[buddha_david]

Originally Posted by Sampiro

Speaking of LSD, Tina Turner claims she had no idea what "acid" was when she sang Acid Queen in the movie version of The Who's Tommy. I find this hard to believe as she's not a stupid woman, she had been in the rock scene for well over a decade, and she'd even opened and toured with The Rolling Stones. She may never have taken acid but no possible way she didn't know what it was.

Similarly, Ted Nugent swears up and down that he didn't know the Amboy Dukes' "Journey to the Center of the Mind" was about psychedelic drugs. Despite Nugent's famous teetotaler reputation, I still find this difficult to believe.

[Chronos]

That's funny, Derleth, the copy of the book I read had a preface by Bradbury saying the same thing: That there was nothing inherent about the medium of TV that prevented it from having works as artistically great as those of literature, and that the problem was the fear of giving offense and blandifying everything as a result.

[Derleth]

Originally Posted by Chronos

That's funny, Derleth, the copy of the book I read had a preface by Bradbury saying the same thing: That there was nothing inherent about the medium of TV that prevented it from having works as artistically great as those of literature, and that the problem was the fear of giving offense and blandifying everything as a result.

This is what he said in 2007, anyway:

Fahrenheit 451 is not, he says firmly, a story about government censorship. Nor was it a response to Senator Joseph McCarthy, whose investigations had already instilled fear and stifled the creativity of thousands.

[snip]

Bradbury, a man living in the creative and industrial center of reality TV and one-hour dramas, says it is, in fact, a story about how television destroys interest in reading literature.

“Television gives you the dates of Napoleon, but not who he was,” Bradbury says, summarizing TV’s content with a single word that he spits out as an epithet: “factoids.” He says this while sitting in a room dominated by a gigantic flat-panel television broadcasting the Fox News Channel, muted, factoids crawling across the bottom of the screen.

(I state without further commentary that TVs can receive channels other than Fox News.)

HeyHomie: Please state why you think Blister in the Sun is about masturbation. Personally, after listening to the song and reading the lyrics, I agree with Anamorphic that it's a drug song.

[BrotherCadfael]

Originally Posted by Reno Nevada

I By saying that Lord of the Rings "is not an allegory", Tolkien meant that Frodo did not represent Perseverance, Merry did not represent Adolescence, and Saruman did not represent Fear of Cheese--they were characters reacting to events in a reasonably realistic fashion.

Sarumen represented Fear of Cutting the Cheese...

[Mahaloth]

Originally Posted by Derleth

Fahrenheit 451 damned well ought to be about censorship, regardless of what Bradbury says. It's interesting and relevant when it's about the cultural self-censorship that comes of not being willing to offend anyone in the pursuit of artistic value. It makes sense when it's interpreted that way.

But Bradbury says it's about the evils of technology. It's a damned Luddite polemic and, even though it still makes sense in that light, it shouldn't be viewed like that. That interpretation guts the story and leaves it as pointless as any other idiot maundering about how things were better in some fictional Arcadia that can only just barely exist when an intelligent person is no older than twelve.

All authors are dead. Bradbury had the damnfool notion to commit suicide.

This is what I came in to say. Clearly, he has no idea what his book was about anymore. Young Bradbury would have mocked this interpretation.

[WhyNot]

I agree with you guys on the Bradbury issue, but I wonder if the "problem" is that Fahrenheit 541 is a "classic" in the very real sense that it's very best theme changes to suit the message of the culture who reads it. That, like the best of Shakespeare, it's so great that it will always have an important and profound theme for the reader, though that theme may change as the reader's needs change.

That kinda makes me want to read it again, although I didn't like it much the first time.

[HeyHomie]

Originally Posted by Derleth

HeyHomie: Please state why you think Blister in the Sun is about masturbation.

Body and beats I stain my sheets is, for me, the giveaway. Not to put too fine a point on it, but this brings to mind masturbating under the covers and ejaculating onto the sheet. Of course, I freely admit that I may be wrong.

And The_Peyote_Coyote: point taken. I mentioned the saxophone only because the instrument turns up pretty frequently in be-bop.

[MrDibble]

Originally Posted by HeyHomie

Body and beats I stain my sheets is, for me, the giveaway. Not to put too fine a point on it, but this brings to mind masturbating under the covers and ejaculating onto the sheet. Of course, I freely admit that I may be wrong.

I thought he was "so strung out" and "high as a kite" that he pissed the bed/crapped himself.