Is this offensive, or am I too sensitive?

[DivineComedienne]

Every spring, my son’s school holds a show in which the entire school participates. Each grade is assigned a country, and the kids do a short singing performance (and sometimes dancing) of songs that represent that country. At the end, there is a finale that includes students from all grades, and they sing a song about peace or unity or something similar. All the parents come to watch this extravaganza.

Normally, I leave after my son’s performance, but last year I stayed for a few minutes and watched a couple of the other grades perform. When the class representing Mexico came up, I was rather appalled to see little boys dressed in sombreros, serapes and big black moustaches. The girls were dressed in colorful dresses that I assume represented traditional Mexican festival clothes.

Am I wrong to be offended by the boys dressed like the Frito Bandito? I think it’s the moustaches that offend me the most. I’m white, but I just think this is perpetuating a stereotype. My son’s grade is doing Italy this year, so it’s not an issue for my kid (yet), but I’m not sure whether to say anything to the principal or not. Am I being overly sensitive, or is this truly offensive?

[Joey P]

I think you're being overly sensitive. I see a lot of Mexicans (usually older men) with big moustaches. It might be a bit stereotypical, but the stereotype didn't come from nowhere.

ETA, if you do a Google Image Search for "Mexican Man" you'll see plenty of moustaches. I think moustaches are just more common on Mexicans then on Americans.

[Nava]

Short version: you're being way over sensitive.

Would you be offended if you saw a similar festival from another country where the kids represented the US with the Golden Arches and a line-dancing number? Sure, it's not the whole country, but it's representative.

You remind me of the executive who banished Speedy Gonzales to the wee hours because "it was offensive to Hispanics". About half a billion Hispanics disagreed with that statement but agreed with the statement that the aforementioned exec was an ass (with our apologies to burros and culos both).

And they're sarapes.

[Living Well Is Best Revenge]

Overly sensitive.

[hogarth]

If it was the only country where the kids dressed up in some kind of national costume, I'd think it was weird and a bit tone deaf. But if the kids dressed up for every country, I'd probably think it was harmless, even though national costumes are a kind of stereotype.

[Eve]

Omigod, that opens the door for so much hilarity: what did they do for France? Wee Apache dancers, with striped t-shirts, berets and torn black stockings?

[tdn]

Originally Posted by Eve

Omigod, that opens the door for so much hilarity: what did they do for France? Wee Apache dancers, with striped t-shirts, berets and torn black stockings?

I'm curious about what they did for Germany. Lederhosen, M1942 helmets, and dancing to Der Guten Tag Hop Clop?

[Eve]

Originally Posted by tdn

I'm curious about what they did for Germany. Lederhosen, M1942 helmets, and dancing to Der Guten Tag Hop Clop?

And then they chased the French kids down the aisles and beat the snot out of them.

[tdn]

Originally Posted by Eve

And then they chased the French kids down the aisles and beat the snot out of them.

And the French kids didn't put up much of a fight.

[Spiff]

Originally Posted by Eve

Omigod, that opens the door for so much hilarity: what did they do for France? Wee Apache dancers, with striped t-shirts, berets and torn black stockings?

And don't forget the cigarettes!

[aruvqan]

Originally Posted by Eve

Omigod, that opens the door for so much hilarity: what did they do for France? Wee Apache dancers, with striped t-shirts, berets and torn black stockings?

Originally Posted by tdn

I'm curious about what they did for Germany. Lederhosen, M1942 helmets, and dancing to Der Guten Tag Hop Clop?

Originally Posted by Eve

And then they chased the French kids down the aisles and beat the snot out of them.

<major snickers>

Somehow, I could actually envision this

[Vinyl Turnip]

Originally Posted by Eve

Omigod, that opens the door for so much hilarity: what did they do for France? Wee Apache dancers, with striped t-shirts, berets and torn black stockings?

White flags, plates of cheese, and monkey masks.

[Larry Mudd]

I generally give this advice out to everybody as a matter of course, but I'll underline it for you:

You should really avoid the "It's a Small World" attraction at Disneyland.

[wuglife]

I don't think it's necessarily stereotypical, unless they were being portrayed in a very negative way.

Moustaches are very common among older Mexican men, and women in Mexico really do sometimes wear traditional, colorful dresses.

[wuglife]

Originally Posted by wuglife

I don't think it's necessarily stereotypical, unless they were being portrayed in a very negative way.

Moustaches are very common among older Mexican men, and women in Mexico really do sometimes wear traditional, colorful dresses.

Actually, it probably is a bit stereotypical, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it's that bad.

Mexican men may stereotypically be portrayed with moustaches--but a lot of them really do have moustaches.

I think things like this are qualitatively different than very offensive comments, like, "Arabs should take flying carpets, not board planes with the rest of us" (paraphrasing Ann Coulter). That's more than a different level; it's a different thing IMO.

[DivineComedienne]

I appreciate the comments, I was on the fence about this one. I'll keep my mouth shut and just enjoy the show!

[TruCelt]

Here's the thing - you can't do that show without stereotypes. At some point, you have to accept the fact that we need some visual to attach to each country, because that's the way the human brain works. The right answer then, is simply to allow each country to define for itself what that visual will be, rather than peremptorily assigning one to it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folk_costume

It gets a little political at times, especially around the Olympic opening ceremonies and Miss Universe-type pageants http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pict...-costumes.html

But really, at some point you've just got to accept what each names for itself and get on with it. Terrible things happen when folks try to over-define the original costume: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...-travesty.html

It's really OK to assume that your audience understands the presence of alternate personal styles throughout the country. Except North Korea.

[psychonaut]

Originally Posted by TruCelt

Here's the thing - you can't do that show without stereotypes. At some point, you have to accept the fact that we need some visual to attach to each country, because that's the way the human brain works.

More likely it's because countries are essentially governments holding or asserting sovereignty over a particular geographical area. There's not much visual about that except for the imaginary lines they've drawn on the map to stake out their claims.

The right answer then, is simply to allow each country to define for itself what that visual will be, rather than peremptorily assigning one to it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folk_costume

It gets a little political at times…

I'd say it gets a little political all the time, since there is not a one-to-one mapping of cultures to countries. Most national borders include communities from several cultures, be they indigenous or immigrant, and more often than not split the indigenous ones down the middle too. There are countries with dozens of indigenous cultural and ethnic groups, each with their own folk costume, none of which can be said to be representative of the country as a whole. And conversely there are large ethnic groups whose population straddles a national border; in some cases they may be the largest ethnic group in both areas, leading to two separate countries with the same "national costume".

[Kasper1014]

I live in San Antonio. They were pretty spot on. Even during our Fiesta celebrations, that's the attire of the dancers and mariachis.

[Bridget Burke]

Originally Posted by Kasper1014

I live in San Antonio. They were pretty spot on. Even during our Fiesta celebrations, that's the attire of the dancers and mariachis.

After the 1910 Revolution, Mexican culture was celebrated by the government--& by artists. That was the era of the muralistas. And the time the mariachis adopted the elegant charro costume instead of white cotton peasant garb. (Coincidentally, that was also the time many US "country" artists chose fine Western outfits over the Hillbilly attire preferred by the Grand Ole Opry.) The Golden Age of Mexican film featured many a cosmopolitan star in regional dress, singing songs about life on the ranch, drinking tequila & shooting his pistol in celebration.

The Ballet Folklorico was founded in the 50's & set the style for groups celebrating Mexican dancing, music & costume--in Mexico & elsewhere. San Antonio, of course! And even in Houston....

(The mustaches are a little weird.)

[Kasper1014]

Originally Posted by Bridget Burke

After the 1910 Revolution, Mexican culture was celebrated by the government--& by artists. That was the era of the muralistas. And the time the mariachis adopted the elegant charro costume instead of white cotton peasant garb. (Coincidentally, that was also the time many US "country" artists chose fine Western outfits over the Hillbilly attire preferred by the Grand Ole Opry.) The Golden Age of Mexican film featured many a cosmopolitan star in regional dress, singing songs about life on the ranch, drinking tequila & shooting his pistol in celebration.

The Ballet Folklorico was founded in the 50's & set the style for groups celebrating Mexican dancing, music & costume--in Mexico & elsewhere. San Antonio, of course! And even in Houston....

(The mustaches are a little weird.)

Very true about the mustaches.

Right now it's Fiesta time in SA, we are seeing the Folklorico costumes everywhere. Now some men have mustaches....but the majority are wearing goatees. Viva la Fiesta!

[steronz]

I don't think it's necessarily offensive, but I'll hijack your thread to ask a question:

Since this picture is probably a lot more indicative of your average grizzled Mexican villager, what good does it do to have kids dress up like comedic caricatures of a bygone era? Same holds true for Germans in lederhosen, Russians in giant fur hats, French people dressed up like mimes, etc. When does "celebrating cultural heritage" turn into "this pointless stereotype is, admittedly, all we understand about Mexican culture?"

[tdn]

Originally Posted by steronz

Since this picture is probably a lot more indicative of your average grizzled Mexican villager, what good does it do to have kids dress up like comedic caricatures of a bygone era?

If kids dressed up like the guy in the first photo, how would we know they were Mexican? The thing is, most people the world over dress more or less the same. Going by the clothes I have on right now, you wouldn't be able to tell if I was Canadian, British, Argentinian, or Japanese.

[Rhiannon8404]

In my area (Northern California) when there are cultural days, parades, etc., that is how the Mexicans dress. The women/girls in colorful, full dresses. The men/boys in serapes or Mariachi-type outfits. The men almost always have mustaches. As a kid I used to be so jealous because the girls' outfits were so much prettier than the prairie-girl stuff I had to wear.

I don't see anything wrong with it. If Mexicans themselves embrace that aspect of their culture, why shouldn't school children.

[florez]

Originally Posted by Rhiannon8404

I don't see anything wrong with it. If Mexicans themselves embrace that aspect of their culture, why shouldn't school children.

This is my take, as a Mexican, many of our historical heroic figures come with mustache, and bandito style dress.

[Joey P]

Originally Posted by steronz

I don't think it's necessarily offensive, but I'll hijack your thread to ask a question:

Since this picture is probably a lot more indicative of your average grizzled Mexican villager, what good does it do to have kids dress up like comedic caricatures of a bygone era? Same holds true for Germans in lederhosen, Russians in giant fur hats, French people dressed up like mimes, etc. When does "celebrating cultural heritage" turn into "this pointless stereotype is, admittedly, all we understand about Mexican culture?"

Originally Posted by tdn

If kids dressed up like the guy in the first photo, how would we know they were Mexican? The thing is, most people the world over dress more or less the same. Going by the clothes I have on right now, you wouldn't be able to tell if I was Canadian, British, Argentinian, or Japanese.

And to add to that, dressing in jeans and flannel isn't exactly celebrating anyone's heritage. Personally, I think getting upset over someone putting on a moustache to show they're Mexican is just as silly as getting upset that someone is wearing a sombrero. It's all part of the 'costume' so to speak. Besides, stereotype or not, a lot of Mexican men wear moustaches so putting one one is part of looking Mexican.

[steronz]

Originally Posted by tdn

If kids dressed up like the guy in the first photo, how would we know they were Mexican? The thing is, most people the world over dress more or less the same. Going by the clothes I have on right now, you wouldn't be able to tell if I was Canadian, British, Argentinian, or Japanese.

If everyone around the world wears the same clothes, then clearly playing "dress up" is not a good way to spread cultural awareness. That's what I'm getting at.

The point of these exercises is to expose kids to other cultures, right? But we're not. We're exposing kids to costumes that other cultures may have dressed in at one time. How is that useful to them?

I think it's the lazy way out. Rather than trying to identify things about Mexican culture that are unique, interesting, and worth celebrating, the school has fixated on the most obvious and least useful stereotype they could possibly have come up with.

[living_in_hell]

Originally Posted by steronz

If everyone around the world wears the same clothes, then clearly playing "dress up" is not a good way to spread cultural awareness. That's what I'm getting at.

The point of these exercises is to expose kids to other cultures, right? But we're not. We're exposing kids to costumes that other cultures may have dressed in at one time. How is that useful to them?

I think it's the lazy way out. Rather than trying to identify things about Mexican culture that are unique, interesting, and worth celebrating, the school has fixated on the most obvious and least useful stereotype they could possibly have come up with.

Actually, research shows that any type of "cultural awareness" add on is actually more marginalizing. Any special celebration or decor or whatever is never the preferred way to teach about difference...infusion is. Should be part of everything, every day.

[Bridget Burke]

Originally Posted by living_in_hell

Actually, research shows that any type of "cultural awareness" add on is actually more marginalizing. Any special celebration or decor or whatever is never the preferred way to teach about difference...infusion is. Should be part of everything, every day.

Got a link to that research? "Infusion"?

Originally Posted by flores

This is my take, as a Mexican, many of our historical heroic figures come with mustache, and bandito style dress.

Vaquero, by the late Luis Jimenez, is on display in Houston's Moody Park. (He produced more than one Vaquero.)

[Zsofia]

If you asked that Mexican guy in the picture what he'd wear to represent the culture and history of Mexico I wouldn't be surprised to see the same sort of folk costume the kids were wearing.

[steronz]

Maybe I just don't understand folk costumes because I live in a country that doesn't have them. I can't imagine dressing up like a pilgrim or a cowboy to teach people about America.

[Alice The Goon]

When your son's grade does Italy this year, and they portray the women as having moustaches, then come back and complain.

[Joey P]

Originally Posted by steronz

If everyone around the world wears the same clothes, then clearly playing "dress up" is not a good way to spread cultural awareness. That's what I'm getting at.

The point of these exercises is to expose kids to other cultures, right? But we're not. We're exposing kids to costumes that other cultures may have dressed in at one time. How is that useful to them?

I think it's the lazy way out. Rather than trying to identify things about Mexican culture that are unique, interesting, and worth celebrating, the school has fixated on the most obvious and least useful stereotype they could possibly have come up with.

It's a fun show for a bunch of, what, 8 or 9 year olds. Not a dissertation on the rise of Mexico.

Originally Posted by steronz

Maybe I just don't understand folk costumes because I live in a country that doesn't have them. I can't imagine dressing up like a pilgrim or a cowboy to teach people about America.

I think if you went to another country and asked the kids to dress up in a culturally significant way to represent Americans, some of them would show up as cowboys...I think that would be fair. It's represented pretty widely in the media and real life and I think there's a lot of people who want to make sure we don't forget about that time in history. Pilgrims OTOH, I don't think are really considered part of Americana.
Also, America is a bit hard since we have a lot of different cultures here. You can still find real live cowboys in one area and drive a few hours and find people working in factories or offices.

[tdn]

Wouldn't a better representation of America be WalMart shoppers?

[steronz]

Originally Posted by tdn

Wouldn't a better representation of America be WalMart shoppers?

Dang, you're right. Given reality, we probably can't do much better than the cowboy stereotype. Yeehaw!

[Apollyon]

Originally Posted by Joey P

I think if you went to another country and asked the kids to dress up in a culturally significant way to represent Americans, some of them would show up as cowboys...

Those who don't choose pin-stripe suits and violin cases.

[Dangerosa]

Originally Posted by steronz

Maybe I just don't understand folk costumes because I live in a country that doesn't have them. I can't imagine dressing up like a pilgrim or a cowboy to teach people about America.

You may not, but we do. The thanksgiving pageant, with kids dressed up like pilgrims and native Americans is a staple still of elementary school life. My kids lucked out on no pagent, but they did come home with little paper pilgrim hats and bonnets as little kids.

Here in Minnesota, you can go our to Walnut Grove and participate in the Little House events in the summer, girls dressed up in prairie dresses and bonnets. And I'm sure we are not regionally unique.

And then we have the grown up civil war reenactors.....

[BetsQ]

Originally Posted by DivineComedienne

Normally, I leave after my son’s performance, but last year I stayed for a few minutes and watched a couple of the other grades perform.

I think what's offensive here is leaving partway through a performance. Either go prepared to stay for the whole thing, or don't go at all.

[jtgain]

Originally Posted by BetsQ

I think what's offensive here is leaving partway through a performance. Either go prepared to stay for the whole thing, or don't go at all.

Nah, forget all of that. It's bad enough that the school drags me to these performances and makes me feel guilty of child abuse if I don't watch young kids try to sing or dance or do other things that young kids are obviously terrible at, and would themselves rather be doing other things, but still want Mom and Dad there to tell them they did a great job.

So, when my kid's done, my parental duty is over and I hit that door running.

[purplehorseshoe]

Dang, BetsQ beat me to it. There is nothing ruder than parents who leave after their own kids, so that the last kids are performing to a bunch of empty chairs and cricket chirps. RUDE.

Wait ...

Originally Posted by DivineComedienne

.... At the end, there is a finale that includes students from all grades, and they sing a song about peace or unity or something similar. . .

Normally, I leave after my son’s performance...

Are you leaving before your son's own finale?

[DivineComedienne]

Originally Posted by purplehorseshoe

Dang, BetsQ beat me to it. There is nothing ruder than parents who leave after their own kids, so that the last kids are performing to a bunch of empty chairs and cricket chirps. RUDE.

Wait ...



Are you leaving before your son's own finale?

My son has never been invited to participate in the finale - it's only about thirty kids who get to do the last song. I just go back to his classroom and join the party they have for the kids (international food).
There are several hundred parents there until the end, I don't think anyone misses me. It's hard enough to sit through my own kid's performance

[Vinyl Turnip]

Originally Posted by purplehorseshoe

Dang, BetsQ beat me to it. There is nothing ruder than parents who leave after their own kids, so that the last kids are performing to a bunch of empty chairs and cricket chirps. RUDE.

Wait ...



Are you leaving before your son's own finale?

Welcome to the Straight Dope Castigation Board, OP. We have a fine selection of hairshirts in the gift shop if you didn't bring your own.

[TruCelt]

I don't know why we're picking on the French, but . . . I think Les Mis first and Can-Can (Moulin Rouge) second.

Just please tell me the Irish kdis didn't wear Leprechaun Costume .

[Lust4Life]

People getting offended by proxy for other ethnicities is going way over the top.

If you're offended by somebody dressing up as a stereotype of your ethnicity then by all means complain about it if your skins that thin, but keep your nose out of it when its something that you probably don't understand in the first place.

When I've been at gatherings of international co workers where much beer is consumed, you'll see people walking around with bowler hats and rolled umberellas talking about tea drinking in affected upper class English accents, along with the boomerang carriers, wearing hats with corks, cowboys, clog wearers, vikings, you name it .

And guess what ?

NOBODY gets offended, not even a little bit, not even once.

Good job that theres no do gooders there to get offended on our behalf.

[Sailboat]

Originally Posted by Lust4Life

People getting offended by proxy for other ethnicities is going way over the top.

If you're offended by somebody dressing up as a stereotype of your ethnicity then by all means complain about it if your skins that thin, but keep your nose out of it when its something that you probably don't understand in the first place.

When I've been at gatherings of international co workers where much beer is consumed, you'll see people walking around with bowler hats and rolled umberellas talking about tea drinking in affected upper class English accents, along with the boomerang carriers, wearing hats with corks, cowboys, clog wearers, vikings, you name it .

And guess what ?

NOBODY gets offended, not even a little bit, not even once.

Good job that theres no do gooders there to get offended on our behalf.

Sure, but it's possible to take that attitude too far. I'm not Arab, but even I could see that a (hypothetical) school program that portrayed Arabs as suicide-vest-wearing Jihadists is sending the wrong message. And perhaps the actual Arabs might not want to stick their necks out to object.

Uninvolved people ignoring this sort of ethnic portrayal didn't lead to anything good.

[Lord Il Palazzo]

Originally Posted by Sailboat

Sure, but it's possible to take that attitude too far. I'm not Arab, but even I could see that a (hypothetical) school program that portrayed Arabs as suicide-vest-wearing Jihadists is sending the wrong message. And perhaps the actual Arabs might not want to stick their necks out to object.

Uninvolved people ignoring this sort of ethnic portrayal didn't lead to anything good.

Yes, but I think there's an important distinction to be made between dehumanizing or vilifying a group of people, and saying they often have mustaches or wear a certain type of hat.

[kushiel]

Because I feel like seeing some freakouts, I present to y'all, Axis Powers Hetalia. That's right, Europe, Asia and North America anthropomorphized as cute anime characters. Russia likes vodka and Japan likes porn!

By the way, America sexually dominating Britain is quite popular, I hear.

[Lust4Life]

Originally Posted by kushiel

Because I feel like seeing some freakouts, I present to y'all, Axis Powers Hetalia. That's right, Europe, Asia and North America anthropomorphized as cute anime characters. Russia likes vodka and Japan likes porn!

By the way, America sexually dominating Britain is quite popular, I hear.

Well I had a look at your link and apart from the fact it was nothing to do with stereotypes, but a rather bizarre persons fantasys, I couldn't find any evidence of the sexual fantasy, or was it wishful thinking ? that you expressed .

Or haven't you sent that to them yet ?

[DrFidelius]

Originally Posted by Lust4Life

Well I had a look at your link and apart from the fact it was nothing to do with stereotypes, but a rather bizarre persons fantasys, I couldn't find any evidence of the sexual fantasy, or was it wishful thinking ? that you expressed .

Or haven't you sent that to them yet ?

You have to hunt up the fan fiction. It is disturbing on many levels.
(My daughter first started following this when she came across them doing a joke about The War of Austrian Succession. She cosplayed as Ukraine at a con a year or so back. She has distanced herself from the fandom since then.)

[psychobunny]

You mean the German kids didn't dress like this?