What atheists think, and why (in re: GEEPERS)

[Marley23]

I'm starting this thread so atheists can explain how they came to be atheists and give their positions on issues including science, the Bible, and religion in general. I realize there's already no shortage of atheists declaiming on these issues in this forum, but I'm hoping to centralize it a bit. I'm doing this primarily because I'd like GEEPERS to get a sense of what atheists actually think and why. He's posted at length in other threads about what atheists think and need and how they treat religious believers, but essentially nothing he's said on those subjects has been correct. I don't presume to speak for all atheists and I also know you can't lead a horse to water, but I figured it was worth a try. So I'd like to address some of GEEPERS' comments and some general questions people might have about atheists. I'd like to keep this civil and handle the topic with minimal initial sarcasm.

Starting with the obvious question: "Why are you an atheist?"
If I had to boil it down to a short answer I'd say it's because the idea of gods makes no sense to me. The more you look at any story about what any god is supposed to be, the more obvious it is that these are stories made up by people as part of an attempt to understand the world and the universe around them. A god who is just like a person - looks like one, feels more or less human emotions like love and anger and jealousy, cares about people on an individual level, needs worship and very exacting codes of conduct? That's not humans made in god's image. It's clearly the opposite. And further, there's the old problem of evil - there's a more or less all-powerful being, but the world is still the way it is? That's not a problem caused by sin and free will. It's a story that was written to explain why the world is the way it is, and to say it'll be OK eventually. I understand the appeal of that kind of story, but I don't think it's anything but a story.

"People across all kinds of cultures and throughout histories have religions, and many of them are pretty similar. Doesn't that suggest they're on to something?"
It tells me that religion addresses some very deep needs for people - the need for acceptance, community, guidance, love, death, a sense of importance and purpose - and I respect those needs because I feel them too. But no, I don't think it means religion is on to something, nevermind that on important particulars, many of those religions sharply contradict each other. And I don't believe in any argument like "A million subscribers can't be wrong!" because they absolutely can be wrong.

"Did something happen to you to make you an atheist?"
Other than religious services and schooling? No. My experience is that very few atheists lose faith because of some terrible experience. I just started thinking critically about what I was hearing in services and from my family and decided it didn't work for me.

"Are you angry at god?"
No. I'll grant that the Judeochristian god sounds like a horrible character, but I can't be angry at it because I don't think it's real in the first place.

"Do you hate religion?"
No. I do often hate what it does to people and what people do because of, or justified by, religion.

"Do you think religion is evil?"
No. I think religion, like politics, society, and just about everything else, reflects the species that created it. That species is flawed and can often be exasperating, cruel, petty, small-minded, and plain old stupid. I don't say that because I hate people - I don't. But I'm often frustrated by their shortcomings.

"Do you think religious people are stupid?"
Not all of them. I don't have much respect for people who accept religions uncritically, who won't voice doubts, who won't acknowledge any flaws or potential flaws in their faiths, who reject science whenever it's inconvenient, or who won't admit that our society has changed over the millennia, and who don't think anyone can have an honest difference of opinion over religion or its interpretations. It goes without saying that I have a very low opinion of people who use selective readings of scriptures to justify bigotry and other absurdities.

"Do you think religion should be stamped out or banned?"
No. I don't think the world would necessarily be a better place if everybody was an atheist (and I don't think that would ever happen anyway). I don't think religious belief should be suppressed. I do think the separation of church and state is a vital principle that needs to be respected for the good of government as well as for the survival and independence of religious institutions. I'm opposed to religion-based barbarism and ignorance and the things that happen as a result.

I think that'll do for a general start. To address some specific comments by GEEPRS:

Originally Posted by GEEPERS

Nope, I proposed a spiritual explanation, and even admited in the OP that atheists will reject this so why are you asking me for evidence that you're going to reject anyways?

As a general rule I don't demand evidence for a religious belief unless somebody asserts that it's true and that's the only way it could be. If you believe in a god who animated the laws of science rather than making the world recently and employing miracles that aren't supported by evidence and which don't stand up to much scrutiny, I don't have an argument with you.

Originally Posted by GEEPERS

God only reveals himself to those who truly seek him with an open heart.

There are people who look for god and don't find it, so I think you should reconsider your attitude toward them. And no, I'm not talking about myself.

Originally Posted by GEEPERS

Yes, atheists read the Bible, not seeking divine truth, but with the attitude of "hey I want to find some contradictions or stories of evil God to make those Christians look like idiots. lol"

That's sometimes true, but not always. Many religious people are far from experts on scripture - in the case of Christianity in particular, scriptural expertise is not required. Not all atheists are experts on religious doctrine either, but some are very well-educated on the subject.

Originally Posted by GEEPERS

I don't expect any atheist to EVER agree with me, or ANY Christian. It's not going to happen.

I think a good and open-minded skeptical atheist won't hesitate to agree with any religious believer on a point that is widely accepted. Not on, say, the existence of a god, but on historical points that are supported by evidence.

Originally Posted by GEEPERS

Archaeology has proven time and time again that the events of the Bible are not myth.

No, it most certainly hasn't. There are some historical events that are described in the Bible and are supported by archeology, and many that aren't - including the miracles and a lot of other major points like the Garden of Eden, the Flood, and the Exodus. These stories are contradicted by biology, genetics, archaeology, physics, and I'm probably forgetting many others. Scientific results aren't perfect, but I find open, reviewable, repeatable scientific evidence much more reliable than (let's face it) ancient myths from people who generally didn't make science a priority because they had more pressing survival concerns, and who were not as interested in giving an accurate view of history as they were in passing on lessons, their culture, and their historical claims.

I've never heard of one archaeological find that contradicts the Bible either.

There is plenty, but if you fall back on the 'absence of evidence' argument every time, I suspect you will successfully insulate your opinion from most challenges. But that's not going to convince a lot of people.

Originally Posted by GEEPERS

The reality is atheists have devoted a lot of time and energy to attack Christianity with an uncanny zeal. Why is that?

While the U.S. is predominantly Christian, in general atheists don't have anything in particular against Christianity. It's one religion among many, and on the balance I don't think it's better or worse than the others. On the other hand when you see the flaws of one religion on near-daily basis and you never encounter others, it's possible to build up some more resentment toward the first one.

Now if I subscribed to the atheist way of thinking, I would be out there trying to squeeze every drop of enjoyment from this life since you can simply cease to exist at any second. Poof, you're gone. Doesn't make a bit of difference what you do in this lifetime.

Squeezing every drop of enjoyment out of life sounds like a good idea, but the fact that there's no god or afterlife doesn't mean life is meaningless. You can take that attitude in a sort of cosmic, infinite long view, but it doesn't help you very much if you're trying to make an ethical decision or even make a lunch order. Eventually humanity will probably be gone, the Earth will be destroyed by the Sun, and the universe will undergo heat death. Does that mean nothing matters? I think what it means is that your life is yours, and you're the only one who can assign meaning to it.

Originally Posted by GEEPERS

Atheists differ from scientists because atheists present their position as concrete conclusive proof.

Atheists don't have to be scientists. Atheism and theism are both opinions on whether or not any gods exist. The attitudes people take in how they support those positions and examine potential evidence reflects on the individuals, not on the case for atheism or for theism. I do think that as a whole, atheists are much more interested in science and where science is going to take our understanding of the universe. On that score, religious people already know the answer and sometimes have a tendency to try to force the science to suit the answer they started with.

Originally Posted by GEEPERS

And the problem again is atheists will stubborn refuse to accept any evidence that supports the Bible.

Just the miracle parts and the god parts.

Therefore, they boldly claim there is ZERO evidence.

That always depends on what you consider evidence, which is going to vary from person to person.

[quote=GEEPERS;15003728Atheists want to wipe every trace of Christianity from public view.[/quote]
Most of them don't, no - certainly that is not what people mean when they talk about the separation of church and state, and you don't have to be an atheist to think that's a good idea. And again, atheists are not specifically biased against Christianity. They don't believe in any gods, not just Jesus.

Originally Posted by GEEPERS

I believe a more honest position is that atheists NEED the Bible to be a work of fiction.

Atheists already think the most important parts of the Bible (from a religious standpoint) are fiction. They don't need the rest to be fiction, although in many cases that is what they think.

[MyFootsZZZ]

This pretty much sums it up for me, though I can't stand the poster of this video because of his other videos.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_SFlwjlkiE

[Marley23]

Video?

Ah, I responded before the edit.

[Jragon]

Originally Posted by MyFootsZZZ

This pretty much sums it up for me, though I can't stand the poster of this video because of his other videos.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_SFlwjlkiE

I'd also like to put this guy out there:

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list...A&feature=plcp

I was never a very devout Christian, so obviously my experiences are much different from him, but if you have a few hours to watch the series, I think it does a very good job of outlining at least what *my* opinions (as well as a lot of facts) on Christianity and religion for the most part.

Granted, I also disagree with some of his opinions, but it's a very good series. I'll have time to post a full response to Miller's OP later... probably not until Sunday though.

[cosmosdan]

Originally Posted by Jragon

I'd also like to put this guy out there:

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list...A&feature=plcp

I was never a very devout Christian, so obviously my experiences are much different from him, but if you have a few hours to watch the series, I think it does a very good job of outlining at least what *my* opinions (as well as a lot of facts) on Christianity and religion for the most part.

Granted, I also disagree with some of his opinions, but it's a very good series. I'll have time to post a full response to Miller's OP later... probably not until Sunday though.

Thanks for the link. I enjoy the way he explains the thinking while telling his own story.

[cosmosdan]

"People across all kinds of cultures and throughout histories have religions, and many of them are pretty similar. Doesn't that suggest they're on to something?"

It indicates they are searching for answers, as are scientists and non believers. IMHO, they make the mistake of believeing they found them.
We can't know what may or may not lie beyond this physical life, and IMHO, we don't have to know. We do what we can in the here and now to make ourselves and the lives of those around us, and the lives of those to follow, a little better.
Whatever does or doesn't happen when our bodies fail will resolve itself when the time comes. The idea that someone has to believe a certain dogma , or that a supreme being , creator of the universe, requires worship and obedience or we will be punished, no longer makes sense to me. IMO Christianity is a perversion of the actual message of Jesus Christ. {assuming he existed}

"Do you hate religion?"
No
Religion is a man made construct, and as such has the positive and negative aspects of mankind. As someone who came through religion to where I am now, I believe it is the right path for some people. That said, I will glady oppose and speak out against the ignorance, and judgemntal hatefulness that often comes from religion. I think the conflict that comes from challanging popular beliefs is nessecary for the growth of mankind, and is reflected in history.


"Do you think religious people are stupid?"
Some are, but I wouldn't use that as a general discription.
I think they have blinders on when it comes to certain things . We are intellectual and emotional beings and I don't think it's possible to completely separate those two aspects of our humanity. I can look back and understand why I was willing to embrace the beliefs I did. I think tradition, peer pressure, and cultural programing has a lot to do with it. I think the emotional appeal does also.

What I find unfortunate is how believers will reject and deny hard evidence to embrace tradition, even though thier own book tells them to value the truth and to not get caught up in the traditions of men.

[steronz]

"Why are you an atheist?"

I was raised as a very active Catholic -- Sunday school, youth ministry, altar boy, church every sunday, etc. I was also a very curious student. When we started learning about science and world history, I realized that I was giving vastly different answers in regular school than I was in Sunday school. One set of answers made sense to me -- this is how the earth was formed, this is how early cultures settled down, started farming, formed cities, expressed their spirituality, etc. The other set of answers only served to appease my teachers. I had a hard time reconciling my Sunday school answers with my emerging worldview.

At some point, it just clicked -- God was made up, a long time ago, by a primitive culture. Once I came to that realization, the world made more sense to me, and I began to develop my own philosophy and morals. In short, atheism worked for me where religion didn't.


"People across all kinds of cultures and throughout histories have religions, and many of them are pretty similar. Doesn't that suggest they're on to something?"

It suggests to me that humans are hard-wired to create religion. I wouldn't say that the Jim Jones cult was "on to something," though, so I viewed the ubiquitous nature of religion as a human failing, something that I had no problem forcibly overcoming with logic and reasoning.


"Did something happen to you to make you an atheist?"

Nope. In fact, given how hard it was to "come out" to my parents, I had a strong incentive to remain religious. I had a rather idyllic life as a little Catholic boy, and I've had a rather idyllic life as an atheist adult.


"Are you angry at god?"

Can't be, he's not real.


"Do you hate religion?"

Nope. I think Christianity is pretty great, and I actually wish more Christians acted like Jesus. My Catholic upbringing is still the basis of my morality, and I don't think I can deny it. It taught me a lot of good things.


"Do you think religion is evil?"

It can be used for evil, but I don't think it's inherently evil.


"Do you think religious people are stupid?"

I'm married to a religious person, so no. That's a blanket statement that's not supported by facts. I think in certain cases, remaining religious requires a willful ignorance, but it depends on a person's specific views. Willfully ignorant is not the same as stupid, and not all religious people are willfully ignorant.


"Do you think religion should be stamped out or banned?"

Atheism works for me, but I don't think it would work for everyone. If someone gets some benefit out of religion, who am I to deny them of that benefit?

[Revtim]

"Why are you an atheist?"
It's just blatantly obvious to me that religions are just more myths. Every argument I've heard for god existing is flawed.

"People across all kinds of cultures and throughout histories have religions, and many of them are pretty similar. Doesn't that suggest they're on to something?"
Given the amount of myths/religions there has been, and the fact that some are influenced by others, no, many would have to be similar.

"Did something happen to you to make you an atheist?"
Learning about past myths and how they were believed as religions was probably the tipping point.

"Are you angry at god?"
No, but I'm FURIOUS with leprechauns and gnomes.

"Do you hate religion?"
I hate how it results in things like gays being killed and marginalized, and the other societal harms that comes from people trying to shoe-horn bronze-age bigotry into modern society.

"Do you think religion is evil?"
I think a lot of evil has been done because of it, but a lot of good as well.

"Do you think religious people are stupid?"
They are ignorant on the whole "god existing" subject, but not necessarily stupid. I do think smarter people are more apt to see that modern day religions are just myths, though.

"Do you think religion should be stamped out or banned?"
Of course not. It should not be in government or public schools, but people should be able to do pretty much anything that does not harm others, including worship.

[Kinthalis]

"Why are you an atheist?"

I think this is silly question. Might as well ask me why I don't believe in flying pink unicorns, or superman. Because there isn't any evidence for the existence of any of those things.

If I went around believing in EVERYTHING for which there is no evidence I wouldn't get much done, what with wrapping myself up in garlic to avoid the vampires, making sure I stay away from goats 'cause I don't want to be around one when the chupacabra rolls around, chasing after rainbows looking to score me a pot of gold, and never listening to music, because I have it on good authority that, eventually, the rhythm IS going to get you.


"People across all kinds of cultures and throughout histories have religions, and many of them are pretty similar. Doesn't that suggest they're on to something?"

Argumentum ad Populum? That's all you got? I feel dirty responding to such an obviously flawed argument, but I will do so anyway cause that;s how I roll.

There are plenty of scientifically sound explanations as to why religious beliefs are so predominant in human culture. From our highly evolved brain, whose specialized pattern recognition often insists on conjuring explanations to natural events even when a pattern doesn't really fit, to religion's ability to keep our ancestors working together in larger and larger groups.

It is the actual hypothesis/argument that has to be scrutinized and tested, and solely it's merits that should be considered. NOT how popular an explanation is.

"Did something happen to you to make you an atheist?"

I never really believed. I remember being a very young child, and finding the behavior of the adults around me extremely perplexing. I could never wrap my mind around the nonsensical rituals and beliefs. I still can't.


"Are you angry at god?"

At Yahweh? No. Now Baal is a serious SOB. And don't get me started on cupid, that bastard still owes me $40.

Seriously, god is a fictional construct.

"Do you hate religion?"

I am perplexed by it. I feel like a significant portion of our population is suffering from some sort of mass delusion. I don't like what it has done to societies in the past, and I worry about what it is doing now and will in the future. But I see it more as a force of nature, a by product of our primitive ancestors that will eventually subside. I don't hate a tornado, I just button down the hatches and whether the storm.

"Do you think religion is evil?"

Individual religious people might be "evil" I suppose.. I find the term nebulous at best. I don't think a term like evil should apply to inanimate religious writings, or religious beliefs. The people who wrote them down, or who follow them might be evil... but words cannot be, IMHO.

"Do you think religious people are stupid?"

This tends to be my gut reaction. But I've learned that people can compartmentalize the inanity of religion, very well, and CAN be otherwise incredibly intelligent people. So some are, some aren't. Same applies to any segment of the population, IMHO.

"Do you think religion should be stamped out or banned?"

Banned, no. Stamped out? Yes.

But I don't mean Spanish Inquisition style. I mean, fighting ignorance with science, logic, education, critical thinking, etc.

Influencing our loved ones, our friends, our governments to keep religion out of schools, to marginalize it as unacceptable fall back position in debates/politics/science/ethics, etc.

That's how we get rid of religion, by fighting ignorance with truth.

Religion cannot do that. Their only weapons are ignorance and violence. And so I'm confident, that rationality will win out in the end.

[Marley23]

Originally Posted by Kinthalis

"Why are you an atheist?"

I think this is silly question. Might as well ask me why I don't believe in flying pink unicorns, or superman. Because there isn't any evidence for the existence of any of those things.

I think that's true, but doesn't necessarily address the question in that most people are raised in at least nominally religious households. If you come to another conclusion there is probably going to be some kind of reason. And I'd like to demonstrate that that reason isn't "I hate God and religious people." Like I said earlier, I'd prefer to keep the IPU-type rhetorical devices to a minimum. I've used them and I understand the purpose they serve in an argument, but I also understand why people object to them (it's not hard to understand).

[gracer]

"Why are you an atheist?"

I wasn't raised in a religious household, by religious parents or in a religious culture. I was aware that some people believed in a god, that they went to church etc, but it was always clear to me that this didn't make sense. I've posted this here before, but when I was about three I asked my grandmother "Granny, how do some people know that god exists if they have never seen him?" I went to church with a friend a few times and thought that besides being extremely boring, it was all clearly made up and silly.

"People across all kinds of cultures and throughout histories have religions, and many of them are pretty similar. Doesn't that suggest they're on to something?"

Before there were other, more adequate explanations for the way things are (the origins of the universe, why babies die etc) you would've been crazy not to take whatever seemingly plausible explanation offered. We now have better explanations, the old ones are no longer necessary. The fact that there are many religions only makes the idea that one of them might be correct less likely. I refer to the South Park episode where they are standing at the pearly gates, wondering "who was right" and it turns out it was the Mormons.


"Did something happen to you to make you an atheist?"

As explained above, nothing happened. The only thing that makes me an atheist is the contrast with other people who believe in a god. Nothing had to happen for that contrast to exist.


"Are you angry at god?"

Huh? Are you angry at fairies? I probably would be angry if he did the stuff the bible says. Just like a theist would be angry at the Big bad Wolf, if he did the stuff he did in the fairy tale. Only you're not angry at the Big Bad Wolf, because he is not real.

"Do you hate religion?"

It doesn't really make sense to me to hate something as abstract as "religion". And hate is a pretty strong word, I try to avoid feeling that way at all.

"Do you think religion is evil?"

Evil is a religious construct, typical of Abrahamic religions. The opposite of "good" is "bad". Religion is bad: it does much harm, causes hurt, has a generally negative impact more than it has a positive impact. YMMV.

"Do you think religious people are stupid?"

No, their belief is just silly. Like sometimes when you meet someone who is definitely intelligent and they turn out to think shots cause autism, they believe in homeopathy, they're birthers, whatever. It doesn't make them stupid, they can still BE intelligent. They just believe something silly.

"Do you think religion should be stamped out or banned?"

Banning religion would be a terrible idea. I hope that one day all people will manage to let go of fairy tales and live their lives in freedom, basing all their views and opinions on knowledge rather than faith. That doesn't mean "stamping out". It's just a hope, and we can work towards it by showing that religion is not necessary to be a good person and by demonstrating the benefits of science and knowledge.

[Procrustus]

"Why are you an atheist?"

Because there are no gods. Really is as simple as that.

[Chronos]

Actually, this:

I don't expect any atheist to EVER agree with me, or ANY Christian. It's not going to happen.

I'm a Christian, and I find myself in agreement with atheists quite often. Not on the question of whether God exists, of course, but on pretty much anything else, sure.

[Prelude to Fascination]

Why am I an atheist? Because I was raised Catholic, but I have reason to believe my father was an atheist (he felt religion was a personal matter, and never discussed his beliefs with me, although he was a scientist). I grew up in a more or less agnostic household, and held that stance for years. More recently (in the last 10-15 years), I've become an atheist because theological arguments simply make no sense to me.

"People across all kinds of cultures and throughout histories have religions, and many of them are pretty similar. Doesn't that suggest they're on to something?"
No. People are alike all over the world. Any differences we have are superficial--we're all the same species, and as such, it shouldn't be surprising that we believe similar things across different cultures.

"Did something happen to you to make you an atheist?"
No, it was a gradual process, begun by my father, who gave me books on evolution, as well as Gardner's Fads and Fallacies when I was around 10 years old. He was grooming me to think critically, even though I came to my conclusions on my own, in my adulthood.

"Are you angry at god?"
No, but I admit to being confused. If there is a god, which I don't believe there is, he's irrational and to me, and makes less sense than scientific explanations (the big bang, for instance).

"Do you hate religion?"
Not in and of itself, but I hate how people act in the name of religion.

"Do you think religion is evil?"
Again, not in and of itself, but people certainly twist it to suit their own purposes, which can be considered evil (using the bible to justify anti-gay stances, for instance).

"Do you think religious people are stupid?"
No, but I think many of them aren't thinking for themselves, and instead of being stupid are misguided.

"Do you think religion should be stamped out or banned?"
It'd be impossible to stamp it out or ban it regardless of whether I think it should, so I'll say no. Religion in one form or another is too ingrained in the human mind to stamp it out. While I've no evidence, I've often thought we're hardwired in some way to believe in religion. You may as well try to stamp out left-handedness in my opinion.

My youngest daughter recently started attending a non-denominational church. Initially, I was against it, because I've known many ultra-religious people in my life, and I don't want my daughter to be like them. But she talked about what she's looking for--part of it is the social aspect: several of her friends go to this church, and she wants to be with her friends. Another reason is she feels there's something out there, and wants to find out about it on her own. She's thinking independently; from me at least, which I admire and encourage.

She's only 13, so not capable of making all her own decisions, but I can't fault her for wanting to answer her own questions. I can influence her, but I don't want to control her.

[monstro]

"Why am I agnostic?"

Because I'm very pragmatic. For someone who considers herself right-brained, I'm also a very concrete thinker. Abstract concepts have always eluded me to a certain extent. I prefer things to make sense in a purely empirical, matter-of-fact way. Not in an emotional way. I am not a very emotional person, so arguments appealing to feelings and emotions don't work on me.

Christianity does not make sense to me. I was raised a Christian and even into my twenties, considered myself one. And then one day I realized that the world wasn't going to suddenly crash down around me once I admitted to myself that none of it made sense. I could stop pretending and just relax in the fabulous words "I don't know."

"People across all kinds of cultures and throughout histories have religions, and many of them are pretty similar. Doesn't that suggest they're on to something?"

This will sound arrogant, but it's actually because of religion's popularity that I'm highly suspicious of it.

"Are you angry at god?"

I'm angry at people who insist that the Christian God is a lovable entity and that there is something wrong with you if you can't see this. I can accept a god that just "is"--like a neutron or a planet. But I can't make myself love something that I can't see, feel, hear, or know. Simply creating a person doesn't entitle them to love. Children of abused parents can attest to this. The fact that people play up the loving aspect of God makes me suspect it's a marketing ploy. Who WOULDN'T like the idea of having an all-loving, all-powerful entity hovering over you all the time? It sounds a heap better than an emotionally detached, semi-powerful entity. That guy is not deserving of worship, tithes, and offerings. You can't win anyone over putting that guy on your magazine cover.

"Do you think religious people are stupid?"

I think stupid people are easily convinced by religions, but I don't think most religious people are stupid. I do think religious people are fearful about not having answers to hard questions.

[Anaamika]

I'll pick and choose my questions.

Starting with the obvious question: "Why are you an atheist?"

Very simple, one day I searched myself and found there was no faith or belief in my heart for a God. And what's more, I had no need for such a thing. I was content.

"People across all kinds of cultures and throughout histories have religions, and many of them are pretty similar. Doesn't that suggest they're on to something?"

No. Lots of people believe in God because they have been taught since childhood and it's comforting to cling to a belief. I just have no need of it.

"Did something happen to you to make you an atheist?"

Something happened to make me doubt god, but that made me an agnostic. After that I searched. I read the Bible, the Quran, and parts of the Gita and found no answers. It wasn't until years later I became an atheist.

"Are you angry at god?"

No, why would I be? It doesn't exist.

"Do you hate religion?"

I have very little hate for anything in my life but sometimes I do scorn the actions of the religious machine.

"Do you think religion is evil?"

I've said before I think organized religion is like organized crime and I still think so. They hide and bury their secrets, they protect their own, and they have not been averse to killing for their needs. However, individual religion is fine. I just wish everyone would keep it to themselves. I would have only asked Jesus to leave out the prosletyizing part.

"Do you think religious people are stupid?"

No. I think they are comforted to believe in a God, and sometimes they can be stupid in their beliefs, but that's up to them - they can be a logical, rational, modern religious person, who understands that the 'rules' were written thousands of years ago and are subject to change, or they can believe the Word of God is as written.

"Do you think religion should be stamped out or banned?"

No...I wouldn't mind if it just disappeared from this world, but I don't want to stamp it out or ban it. I'd like to work on some of the world's bigger problems like hunger and poverty. I am of the opinion that if we solve some of those problems less and less people would believe.

Some of GEEPER's comments:

God only reveals himself to those who truly seek him with an open heart.

Which is cruel to say, children with cancer, or someone who did seek him, and suffers. My mother believed fiercely and she died of bone cancer three years after the retirement that she looked forward to all her life. I don't buy the "god works in mysterious ways" either. I am just sad that she couldn't enjoy it.

Yes, atheists read the Bible, not seeking divine truth, but with the attitude of "hey I want to find some contradictions or stories of evil God to make those Christians look like idiots. lol"

Nope, I read it as a teen, openly seeking answers. It didn't give me any good ones. And it's dreadfully anti-woman. Don't tell me Eve was the source of all of the world's diseases and ills and pains in pregnancy. I didn't do it, why should i suffer because one woman wanted to know? Why did God put that big ol' tree there anyway, and then give the woman the curiosity to go look for it?

The reality is atheists have devoted a lot of time and energy to attack Christianity with an uncanny zeal. Why is that

Nope. Most of us atheists you'd never know. I try to live by example. I've had people, upon finding out I was atheist, be shocked. I'm kind, compassionate, respectful of my fellow human being. I'm a humanist and an atheist and I don't carry it on my shoulder. No one knows unless they ask me directly.

[Meatros]

Originally Posted by Marley23

"Why are you an atheist?"

I do not find any versions of theism that I am aware of compelling enough to believe them.

To go a little further, I started out a Christian and then through research I found that I could no longer believe in Christianity.

Originally Posted by Marley23

"People across all kinds of cultures and throughout histories have religions, and many of them are pretty similar. Doesn't that suggest they're on to something?"

It suggests something, but not necessarily that God exists. Mankind always seeks for answers, as such I think that's the primary reason that they believe in God. God provides answers.

Originally Posted by Marley23

"Did something happen to you to make you an atheist?"

Yes. I encountered some claims online that shook me to the core. I researched them and found them largely false. I had already been on the path to skepticism, but this was the first time my belief in God was questioned. I had to find out whether or not my religion was true. So for the first time I put my belief in the existence of God on the line. After some searching and trouble times, I couldn't hold on to my faith. I wavered for up to a year afterward, praying, reading, all the while.

Originally Posted by Marley23

"Are you angry at god?"

Nope.

Originally Posted by Marley23

"Do you hate religion?"

Nope, I find it endlessly fascinating.

Originally Posted by Marley23

"Do you think religion is evil?"

Nope. I find some believers are evil.

Originally Posted by Marley23

"Do you think religious people are stupid?"

No. I find that some people are stupid no matter what they believe.

Originally Posted by Marley23

"Do you think religion should be stamped out or banned?"

Nope.

[Miller]

I'm probably an atheist for the simple reason that I wasn't raised with any particular religious faith. If I'd been raised a Christian, there's a good chance I'd be a Christian right now. So right off the bat, I don't think that I'm an atheist because I'm smarter or better than believers. But faith was never a part of my life as a child, and as an adult, I've never felt a need to acquire it. I'm happy with myself as an atheist, and my understanding of how the world works, and how to act in a moral fashion, meshes fine with an atheist understanding of the world.

I certainly don't begrudge anyone their beliefs. My mother is a practicing Catholic (she was lapsed for most of my childhood, started going again when I was in high school). I've dated Christians, Buddhists, Pagans, and atheists. They all found varying degrees of joy, comfort, and wisdom in their beliefs. Why would I want to take that away from them?

That being said, my main problem with most religions is that they all seem to operate on such a human scale. I find it incredible that a being that could create this through an act of will, would really care about this. There are so many infinite variations of life, both here on Earth and, almost certainly, throughout the universe, the idea that the cultural practices of one era for one subset of one species on one planet in the entire fucking universe are of dramatic importance to such a being that he'd devise eternal torments for breaking them is just ridiculous. The mind of a being who could write the fundamental laws of the universe cannot be, in anyway, understandable to beings such as ourselves. Even if you could find a gap in the physical world that could only be filled by God, the idea that any particular human could have a line on what God wanted from us is laughable on its face.

Originally Posted by JRagon

I'll have time to post a full response to Miller's OP later... probably not until Sunday though.

Marley's OP, not mine, but I'm flattered by the confusion.

[Jimbabweosu]

Steronz and Marley23 have already given pretty good responses that I can, and will echo, albeit in mine own voice.

"Why are you an atheist?"
The Short Answer to this is, Catholic School religious education. I was a convinced and devout Catholic, and in High School we had to take religion classes. There I noticed that people had to construct ever more complex models and convoluted justifications to support their particular belief system. "God is Love." Really? Tell that to the Canaanites, or the Jews of 1933-1945 in Europe, or for that matter, all of the people who did not believe in Jesus-as-son-of-God. "Jesus died for our sins." Then, why do I have to go to confession? Oh, not THOSE sins, but "Original Sin." So wait, a loving God has decided that because someone named Adam and his wife broke an arbitrary rule in 'paradise' all of humanity forever after is condemned for THEIR sin, and God sent his son- who is actually himself, by the way, to die so that we have the POSSIBILITY of not being condemned to eternal torment and torture by erasing this arbitrary, crime-committed-by-another? That just seemed, well, ludicrous. Islam and Judaism also seemed full of such non-sense (as in does not make sense).

And, upon much reflection, I decided that if I was going to believe something was true, it had to have independently, verifiable evidence to support it. Gravity works, according to a set of knowable equations, every time, to every observer. God does not. Religious texts contradict themselves; to reconcile them requires leaps of logic that are simply unsustainable. Occam's Razor kicks in, and well, there are no phenomena that I have ever found (I have decades of higher education and teaching and reading on a wide variety of subjects) that cannot be explained by science, or potentially so. Why do people who are experiencing "NEAR death experiences" see a ring of light: easy, that's how the optic nerve behaves when it is starved of oxygen; the outer ring misfires, and you get a halo of light.

At every step along the way, I discovered that 'God' offered no explanatory value, nor any benefit. As for the "God is love" argument... well, years of bible-reading, and study of the original sources led me to draw the conclusion from the evidence presented in the book that "God, if he existed, was a vicious, vindictive, arbitrary monster. He condoned, even practiced Genocide (see Noah, the Conquest of Canaan), he slaughtered innocent children (See Egypt), he set up difficult, even impossible codes of behavior (see Leviticus and Deuteronomy) and then reveled in the failure of his creation to meet his standard for which he then cast them, and ayone else of the vast majority of humanity who had never even heard of him, into pits of unimaginable torture. Forever. It just doesn't make any sense, and certainly offered no comfort.

"People across all kinds of cultures and throughout histories have religions, and many of them are pretty similar. Doesn't that suggest they're on to something?"
Most people can be wrong. Belief in the absence of independent, verifiable evidence is silly. Having similar desires to beleive in something greater I would argue is not an argument for god, but rather an argument for an evolution of a belief-gene that helped humanity survive by fostering intra-group unity and cooperation. (which others have positied, and discussed)

"Did something happen to you to make you an atheist?"
Yes. I decided to stop believing silly things.

"Are you angry at god?"
I'm no more angry at god than I am mad at the Great Pumpkin.

"Do you hate religion?"
Only insofar as it makes, as one other atheist has said, otherwise intelligent people say the stupidest things. Oh, and then try to declare their opposite of science as science in politics and education.

"Do you think religion is evil?"
No. People are evil, and use all sorts of things to justify their actions. Sometimes they use religion. Sometimes they use nationalist ideologies. I don't think the NAZIs were correct either.

"Do you think religious people are stupid?"
Not stupid. Willfully ignorant (not knowing), yes... Stupid (incapable of knowing), no.

"Do you think religion should be stamped out or banned?"
Look, I had a friend who was killing himself with drinking. He found God and stopped. If that's the crutch he needed to convince himself to stop, well, then good. My mother draws deep solace from the church (but she doesn't really think about how she is already condemned to hell for practicing birth control- standard Catholic dogma). As long as it stays out of my science and politics... hey whatever floats your boat.

[shiftless]

I'll play because it's slow here.

"Why are you an atheist?"

I don't think of myself as an atheist, even though the definition fits me. I just don't have opinions about what kinds of undetectable supernatural beings there may be in the world. The default belief is NONE until proven otherwise, IMO. I was raised a Methodist/Baptist but questioned what I was told. One day I considered what would it mean if there was no God. It was scary, especially since I had been taught that even thinking that will be punished with eternal torment. Who says stuff like that to a child? A lot of stuff makes more sense when it isn't filtered through the religion first.

"People across all kinds of cultures and throughout histories have religions, and many of them are pretty similar. Doesn't that suggest they're on to something?"

We are all superstitious and many superstitions are similar. I still cross my fingers and wear my lucky socks for the big game, for example. I think religion is institutionalized superstition.

"Did something happen to you to make you an atheist?"

See above. I stopped taking someone else's word for everything, considered things for myself and this is the conclusion I came to.

"Are you angry at god?"

No. I was, and am, a little bugged that people had created such an elaborate lie but there is no God to be angry at.

"Do you hate religion?"

No. It's like door-to-door salesmen. I wish they would stop bugging me but I don''t care what they do if they keep it to themselves.

"Do you think religion is evil?"

No, I think religious leaders are evil. They pass off their own choices as the direct will of an all powerful God. That is just wrong, whether God exists or not. I wish the followers would take a more critical look at what they are told but we all have busy lives.

"Do you think religious people are stupid?"

No. Some are just looking for answers in an area I feel I've already mined with no result. Some aren't looking for answers at all, they just like the trappings. The ones, and there are a lot, who think they have to force their religion on others aren't stupid, they are evil.

"Do you think religion should be stamped out or banned?"

Religion is hardwired in some way. Trying to stop it would be evil and wrong and it would just pop up again in another form. What should be stamped out is people who use religion to advance their own, non-religious agendas.

If people want to get together and talk about how God speaks to them, how would that be a problem? When they try to force others to abide by what they claim that God says, they need to bring more evidence than just their word.

[Voyager]

Originally Posted by Marley23

Starting with the obvious question: "Why are you an atheist?"

Simple. Once I was exposed to the idea that Moses did not write the Torah, but that it was written by multiple people and edited together much later, the scales fell from my eyes. There is a total lack of a reason to believe in God. Never having been a Christian, it was clear that lots of people believed in absurd things, so extending my lack of belief in the majority religion to lack of belief in all religions was easy.

"

People across all kinds of cultures and throughout histories have religions, and many of them are pretty similar. Doesn't that suggest they're on to something?"

If they all believed in the same thing, across time and continents, maybe. The diversity of belief argues strongly that it is culturally based, and not inspired from some deity.

"Did something happen to you to make you an atheist?"

I can say this exactly. In 12th grade, exiled from my job in the College Office so I couldn't look up the SAT scores of my friends (not me personally, all seniors were so exiled) I got a job in the English book room which did not involve a lot of work. There were a pile of Bibles for the Bible as literature section. I opened one and read the introduction which told me what I mentioned above. That was it.
Looking back, I'm sure my grandfather was an atheist and no one in my family was exactly devout, so it wasn't as traumatic as it could have been.

"Are you angry at god?"

No more than I am at Darth Vader and Lord Voldemort.

"Do you hate religion?"

"Do you think religion is evil?"

Combining these. Only to the extent that religion justifies reducing the liberty of adherents, non-adherents, and attacks non-believers. My family is in this country because Russian Christians were scum. If you believe that god is against abortion, fine, but if you get in the way of my daughters if they ever needed one, I'll run right over you with my truck. In the religion I was brought up in, no one thought that goys should stop eating bacon. And I was perfectly Jewish eating bacon myself.
When I was 13 I actually went to more temple than I needed to. I never once heard my rabbi threaten me with damnation, predict horrible outcomes from sin, or anything like that. I have no bad memories of 5 years of Hebrew school or any service. I became an atheist through reason alone.

"Do you think religious people are stupid?"

Many religions people, especially here, have retreated to beliefs that are unfalsifiable. They are not stupid. Those who say "there must be god because otherwise how did man descend from monkeys if there are still monkeys" are stupid. Or liars. Mostly the religious are self-deluded, thinking that because the existence of a god is satisfying to them it must be true. You can see this in the common denial that we can be delusional about one set of our beliefs while being perfectly rational about many others.

"Do you think religion should be stamped out or banned?"

Even if it could be done, the irrationality would spring up in other ways. I'd be happy if laws were limited to those for which there is a secular justification. Anyone wanting to pass a law with a religious justification needs to produce some god or other to testify for it.

[Latro]

Starting with the obvious question: "Why are you an atheist?"

Raised a Catholic I had quite a strong God belief. The indoctrination came mainly from my mother and at school . When I was young, already quite a number of people would not go to church anymore, including my father. The fact that my father didn't 'have to go to church' must have played a part early on, in me realising that not everybody viewed religion the same way. That there were differing views.
As a child I was thouroughly immersed in all the Catholic/biblical stories. Around the age of 12 or 13 with an interest in popular science and history I would read quite a lot of magazines and watch documentairies. IOW the world grew bigger and the growth of my knowledge challenged the truth of a lot of biblical stories.

"Did something happen to you to make you an atheist?"
As said I was already starting to questioning some aspects of what the Church had instilled in me and my social circle.
There was indeed a 'click' moment for me at about the age of 13.
A favorite aunt of mine developped skin cancer. I prayed and prayed with all my might to God to spare her, as she certainly did not deserve a horrible disease like that. She died anyway.
There I realised I did not have 'a special bond' with God and I lost faith in him. The questioning could start in earnest.

"People across all kinds of cultures and throughout histories have religions, and many of them are pretty similar. Doesn't that suggest they're on to something?"

Bollocks. A total argument from ignorance.
The main religions today resemble eachother, Judaism Christianity and Islam. And that's no wonder, because the latter two derived from Judaism.
But there's an enormous host of other religions and they do most certainly not resemble the abrahamic religions.


"Are you angry at god?"
No, That's laughable. How can I hate something I don't think exists?

"Do you hate religion?"
Hate? No. Some are better than others at making the world a nicer place though.

"Do you think religious people are stupid?"
Besides some actual stupid and gullible people, I think most of those who strongly believe are ignorant/unknowing of the world around them and about their own religion. Those always seem to be the loudest about their religion.

The majority is probably just uninterrested and unchalleging , they go with the flow and accept what they are told. Their belief is no more than a social/cultural thing.
This is of course also true of most people today that are atheist just because they live in an atheist culture.

"Do you think religion is evil?"
Well, organised religion does have a big interrest in keeping people ignorant.
If they started thinking independently they'd walk away.
Ignorant people can be manipulated far more easily than independent minds.

People have forgotten how oppressive churches used to be and ask what harm private, peaceful religion could ever do.
Christianity has only become private and harmless fairly recently. Even in my youth the Church was pretty pervasive. The Church was everywhere and intruded immensly into peoples' private lives. Now, because their power is broken, they seem more harmless but the spectre of religious people in power remains.
So yes, I think there is danger in religion.

"Do you think religion should be stamped out or banned?"
Living in a country that has largely secularised I see the gullible, stupid, ignorant and those that 'go with the flow' embrace all kinds of new sorts of fads and woo.
These people will always be.
At the beginning of secularisation people just followed new ideologies. Liberalism, communsim, fascism with the same unquestioning zeal they would follow a religion. Stamping out and banning religion didn't keep us from killing each other.
Hopefully we've also develloped a bit further away from following and imposing 'isms' blindly.

[Sitnam]

I'm a Packer fan because I grew up in Wisconsin, I lean politically left most likely because my parents do.

Do many religious believers wonder how serendipitous it is that the one true reality happens to be the faith they were surrounded with as a child?

[JKellyMap]

Originally Posted by Sitnam

I'm a Packer fan because I grew up in Wisconsin, I lean politically left most likely because my parents do.

Do many religious believers wonder how serendipitous it is that the one true reality happens to be the faith they were surrounded with as a child?

This. A million times, this.

Mrs. Map was raised Catholic just because some Portuguese traders HAPPENED to establish ties to the coast of southern India (a place she has never visited) in the 1500s, and you could work out all the CHANCE occurrences that led to a 16th-century seafaring country to have people enthusiastic about the teachings of one (of many) 1st-century Palestinian gurus...

Mrs. Map warned me not to bring up the "chance" aspect of this with my in-laws, even though it fascinates me. (I should mention that my in-laws are terrific folks who never bring up their beliefs unless asked, and we get along great.)

[Shakester]

Starting with the obvious question: "Why are you an atheist?"

Because I don't believe that human beings are the point of the universe. That's always seemed way too egotistical to me. There are plenty of other reasons, but I think that one trumps them all in the end.

"People across all kinds of cultures and throughout histories have religions, and many of them are pretty similar. Doesn't that suggest they're on to something?"

No, it suggests that people everywhere are pretty similar, and that lots of people, across all cultures, feel a need for similar comforting fairy stories.

"Did something happen to you to make you an atheist?"

Nothing in particular. I had some religious instruction as a child, but I don't think I ever actually believed in it. I didn't consider myself an atheist until fairly recently; I gave religions a chance, but I never found one that seemed at all convincing to me, in comparison to observable reality.

"Are you angry at god?"

No. That's like asking if I'm angry at the Easter Bunny or Mickey Mouse.

"Do you hate religion?"

I hate dogmatic religion, and dogmatic ideology of all types. I don't really differentiate between religion and, for example, many political beliefs, and all conspiracy theories - they're the same thing in my opinion.

"Do you think religion is evil?"

Not inherently, but like a lot of things it can be used for evil purposes.

"Do you think religious people are stupid?"

No. I have some very dear friends who are religious. Lots of people need the comfort of a spiritual belief system, because life can be pretty tough.

"Do you think religion should be stamped out or banned?"

No. Some people need it. I think churches should be very separate from states, though. You're free to believe in whatever nonsense appeals to you, just don't try imposing it on anyone else.

(Note that I haven't read any other replies yet because I didn't want mine to be influenced.)

[Blaster Master]

I am not an atheist, but this is something that I feel is a step toward a better mutual understanding between atheists and theists and I appreciate the effort. I won't answer your questions since they don't really apply to me, but since this was spawned by comments by GEEPERS, I thought it might be helpful to give a perspective that hopefully might help bridge his understanding.
I'm bolding his original comments to keep context

Originally Posted by Marley23

Nope, I proposed a spiritual explanation, and even admited in the OP that atheists will reject this so why are you asking me for evidence that you're going to reject anyways?

As a general rule I don't demand evidence for a religious belief unless somebody asserts that it's true and that's the only way it could be. If you believe in a god who animated the laws of science rather than making the world recently and employing miracles that aren't supported by evidence and which don't stand up to much scrutiny, I don't have an argument with you.

In general, spiritual explanations aren't going to be examinable by science, so there's not really any sort of evidence that one can provide to back up any sort of spiritual explanation. The problem is, generally any spiritual explanation supposes that there is some spiritual aspect, so it's sort of circular logic and it's just not going to be convincing to someone that doesn't believe that to be the case. It's a difficult mindset for someone who believes in God to understand, just as song longterm atheists will have difficulty understanding a theist's mindset.

I believe that trying to use science in any way to prove spiritual or religious claims is like trying to use science to prove that blue is the best color. It's ultimately a pointless discussion because they explore different questions.

God only reveals himself to those who truly seek him with an open heart.

There are people who look for god and don't find it, so I think you should reconsider your attitude toward them. And no, I'm not talking about myself.

Honestly, this is a True Scotsman argument, and it's one that really bothers me when other theists assert it. I believe God reveals himself to everyone, but that revelation isn't going to be interpretted by everyone the same way. Each of us has a lifetime of experiences and cultural references that determine how we understand the world around us. Yes, the fundamentals of Christianity can be found in the Bible, but so much of modern belief is based upon interpretations, traditions, and history, hence why there's so many different denominations of Christianity. I imagine that if someone who had never been exposed to Christianity at all suddenly had a very real revelation from God, the resultant impact of that belief probably wouldn't be like any modern denomination at all, possible not even really discernable as Christianity given whatever his life experiences and cultural context was.

That's not to say that there isn't some truth to your statement, as there are some people who are seeking truth, but not so much for the sake of truth. But I don't think it's fair to assume that everyone who is an atheist isn't really looking for the truth with as much, or even more, sincerity as some Theists. But they very well may interpret a lot of those sorts of revelations as something different. Where I may have a very real experience of a revelation from God, an atheist may attribute that sort of epiphany as some deeper level of his consciousness or intuition. There's simply no way to prove that one of those interpretations is correct over the other, only that each of us had some realization and we really don't know where it came from.

Yes, atheists read the Bible, not seeking divine truth, but with the attitude of "hey I want to find some contradictions or stories of evil God to make those Christians look like idiots. lol"

That's sometimes true, but not always. Many religious people are far from experts on scripture - in the case of Christianity in particular, scriptural expertise is not required. Not all atheists are experts on religious doctrine either, but some are very well-educated on the subject.

Here's the thing. The Bible isn't there to be proof of the existence of God. Instead, what it is there to do is to teach believers about God and the implications of that. The problem is, when reading it from different perspectives, its easy to come to all sorts of different conclusions about what's intended. Just take the constitution as an example, it's a much shorter document written much more recently by individuals thoroughly studied by historians, and there's still quite a bit of dispute about what a lot of it actually says or was intended to say or whatever.

So yes, there are some atheists out there who will look at it trying to find problems with it and they'll find tons, but there's also atheists out there who will appreciate how most Christians interpret it, they just may not necessarily share that interpretation themselves. In my experience, the former type of atheist may be louder, but the latter type is much more common.

And I see it go the other way as well. For instance, I've seen an argument against evolutionary science that Darwin said such and such in the Origin of Species and it's been proven wrong since then, therefore evolution is false science. It's a bad argument because it misses the context of all the science that's been done on the subject since then.

I don't expect any atheist to EVER agree with me, or ANY Christian. It's not going to happen.

I think a good and open-minded skeptical atheist won't hesitate to agree with any religious believer on a point that is widely accepted. Not on, say, the existence of a god, but on historical points that are supported by evidence.

If you plan for failure, you'll always succeed. The purpose of discussing religion isn't to convince other people, you very seldom will. If that's your goal, you'll be very frustrated. Instead, use it to explore the consistency of your own beliefs and just how strongly you believe them. I've gained an enormous amount of insight into my own beliefs and the nature of God through discussions with atheists precisely because they asked me difficult questions that theists never would. I only get frustrated when people discuss these sorts of topics not in good faith, like an atheist who just presupposes that all religious people are inherently evil or, just as bad, a religious person who presupposes anyone who doesn't agree with him is irredeemably deceived and damned.

The only thing that will ultimately convince anyone on this sort of topic, regardless of what your perspective is, is to do the same sort of thing for them. Have a real honest discussion with them, ask hard questions genuinely and respond to them honestly, and then each of you takes time to think about that. You'll never browbeat anyone into agreeing on this sort of thing.

Archaeology has proven time and time again that the events of the Bible are not myth.

No, it most certainly hasn't. There are some historical events that are described in the Bible and are supported by archeology, and many that aren't - including the miracles and a lot of other major points like the Garden of Eden, the Flood, and the Exodus. These stories are contradicted by biology, genetics, archaeology, physics, and I'm probably forgetting many others. Scientific results aren't perfect, but I find open, reviewable, repeatable scientific evidence much more reliable than (let's face it) ancient myths from people who generally didn't make science a priority because they had more pressing survival concerns, and who were not as interested in giving an accurate view of history as they were in passing on lessons, their culture, and their historical claims.

I have to completely agree with Marley here. Some parts of the Bible are clearly intended to be historical and those parts have often turned out to be pretty accurate in the historical records. Some parts aren't intended to be historical and they often haven't turned out well. That some parts have been verified and some parts haven't doesn't really mean anything. We have to keep in mind that the Bible isn't a single book but a collection of books written at different times for different reasons.

For instance, most of the book of Genesis just doesn't line up with any historical record, that doesn't invalidate the entire Bible at all. In fact, I very much liken it to a 4-year-old asking his parents where babies come from. Would a parent explain in detail the act of sex, how genetics works, fetal development, and top it all off with a graphic description of the birthing process? I sure as hell hope not. Instead, a parent will realize that the kid can't even understand that and isn't even looking for that specific knowledge and will probably give a description that starts with "when a mommy and a dad love eachother very much..." I look at Genesis very much the same way, that there's no way a primitive people could understand the concepts, muchless the specifics, of evolution, but those concepts weren't really important anyway, that what was important was that God did it and why he did it.

The reality is atheists have devoted a lot of time and energy to attack Christianity with an uncanny zeal. Why is that?

While the U.S. is predominantly Christian, in general atheists don't have anything in particular against Christianity. It's one religion among many, and on the balance I don't think it's better or worse than the others. On the other hand when you see the flaws of one religion on near-daily basis and you never encounter others, it's possible to build up some more resentment toward the first one.

The reality is that SOME atheists have devoted a lot of time and energy to attack Christianity with an uncanny zeal. Again, this is a case of those being a particularly loud minority, and a number of atheists just not caring. It's no different than, say, the WBC and their "God Hates Fags" campaign. Anyone who thinks those individuals speak for the majority of Christians is far from the truth.

If nothing else, the fact that Marley opened this thread should be proof enough that at least some atheists are really interested in an honest dialogue about these sorts of topics.

Now if I subscribed to the atheist way of thinking, I would be out there trying to squeeze every drop of enjoyment from this life since you can simply cease to exist at any second. Poof, you're gone. Doesn't make a bit of difference what you do in this lifetime.

Squeezing every drop of enjoyment out of life sounds like a good idea, but the fact that there's no god or afterlife doesn't mean life is meaningless. You can take that attitude in a sort of cosmic, infinite long view, but it doesn't help you very much if you're trying to make an ethical decision or even make a lunch order. Eventually humanity will probably be gone, the Earth will be destroyed by the Sun, and the universe will undergo heat death. Does that mean nothing matters? I think what it means is that your life is yours, and you're the only one who can assign meaning to it.

This argument is as bad as atheists who say "well if you're going to live in eternal paradise, why don't you just kill yourself now?" Just as the "obvious" conclusion of getting to heaven as fast as possible doesn't automatically follow from belief in God, it also doesn't follow from a lack of belief in God that one should live with the purpose of maximizing one's pleasure before ceasing to exist.

We all decided the meaning of our own lives. A theist is likely to derive some or all of it from his belief in God, but that doesn't mean that atheists' lives are inherently meaningless. They just derive their purpose in life from other things. After all, I think even more than wanting pleasure, all of us wants purpose. Seeking nothing but unending pleasure isn't really much of a purpose for most people, hence why you don't see a whole lot of atheists pursuing that sort of life.

Atheists differ from scientists because atheists present their position as concrete conclusive proof.

Atheists don't have to be scientists. Atheism and theism are both opinions on whether or not any gods exist. The attitudes people take in how they support those positions and examine potential evidence reflects on the individuals, not on the case for atheism or for theism. I do think that as a whole, atheists are much more interested in science and where science is going to take our understanding of the universe. On that score, religious people already know the answer and sometimes have a tendency to try to force the science to suit the answer they started with.

I don't think it's fair to generalize all atheists like that. Certainly some present their perspectives as concrete proof, but many theists will just assert God exists in much the same way, that it's indisputable and only a fool can't see it. Further, just as most theists aren't theologians or Biblical scholars, most atheists aren't evolutionary biologists or cosmologists. I think plenty on both sides of the discussion could benefit from a more open approach and with greater awareness for how their present their opinions and arguments.

Atheists want to wipe every trace of Christianity from public view.

Most of them don't, no - certainly that is not what people mean when they talk about the separation of church and state, and you don't have to be an atheist to think that's a good idea. And again, atheists are not specifically biased against Christianity. They don't believe in any gods, not just Jesus.

The thing is, the Bible isn't 100% fact or fiction and any realistic view of it will reveal that some parts of it are historically verifiable and some parts of it aren't intended to be taken literally. Yet, atheists will deny that any of it has any basis in reality and some theists will deny that any of it isn't literally true.

The problem is, this is a false dichotomy and it's really missing the forest for the trees. Whether creation occured literally as described in Genesis or through evolution doesn't really say anything about why we are here and where we're going. Whether Jesus's life occurred exactly as it's described in the Bible or some parts of it are made up doesn't tell us anything about the major lessons he taught, specifically related to love and morality.

You're simply not going to win over anyone who doesn't believe in God to believe in God by arguing for the truth of the Bible. Here's a question I'd have you really seriously think about. Assume for a moment that God were somehow proven to absolutely not exist, would you still consider the general teachings of Jesus worth following? If yes, that's really more the sort of thing that's worth discussing with someone that doesn't believe in God. What has continued to help me keep my faith is precisely because I can so much more or less independently verify a lot of what he has taught. If no, why are you following teachings that you only accept on someone else's authority?

[Bryan Ekers]

The movie Ghost cemented my atheism.

[Latro]

Originally Posted by Bryan Ekers

The movie Ghost cemented my atheism.

indeed, the whole idea of a christian afterlife never made any real sense to me.
Where's the fun in it? You don't eat, sleep, party, have sex, have any hobbies etc
No games, nothing to study or to learn.
All the stuff that makes this life good, you don't have in heaven.

Then you're supposed to meet all your deceased loved ones. How about those you didn't love? Will I meet my ex there? Will we just all love each other? That would mean no real interaction everything would be stagnant. What about my dog?
No animals allowed.

Which brings me to biggest argument for religion, giving Pascal the benefit of tons of doubt, heaven gives this life purpose. We make this life miserable so we can go to heaven. Well, what's the purpose of heaven?

[Skammer]

Christian assuming they know how and why atheists think is just as bad as when atheists do the opposite (see the Pit thread on "I love you unless you're gay"). I believe that most people, regardless of their beliefs, are honest about what they believe and why. Assigning ulterior motives (especially devious ones) really only reveals uncertainty about one's own beliefs.

So for example if I think that all athiests secretly believe but are mad at God or are too selfish to obey God, I'm in the same category as atheists who believe that all Christians are simple-minded or secretly hate women and gays.

[Lobohan]

Originally Posted by Marley23

Starting with the obvious question: "Why are you an atheist?"

Because when I looked into it, I realized that there is literally nothing on the religion side but bald assertions. No evidence, no logic, nothing of any real value.

"People across all kinds of cultures and throughout histories have religions, and many of them are pretty similar. Doesn't that suggest they're on to something?"

It suggests to me that people are afraid of death and want answers to big questions. Imagining that there is some father-figure in the sky running things is an obvious thing to make up.

"Did something happen to you to make you an atheist?"

I faced my teenage fear over questioning God. It took years before I'd admit that I was too afraid to accept the obvious.

"Are you angry at god?"

If He existed, I'd work against Him day and night. The remarkably stupid thing about the Abrahamic Religions is that they all pretend the sadistic murderer God depicted in the bible is good. Lex Luthor is a better person than Yahweh as depicted in the bible!

"Do you hate religion?"

Yes. Not religious people, but religion. One of the worst things about religion, is it can turn a decent, intelligent person into Rick Santorum.

"Do you think religion is evil?"

Not necessarily. But it's delusional by definition.

"Do you think religious people are stupid?"

Stupid people are more likely to be unable to see through religion. But I know many smart religious people. They aren't stupid, they're just unable, because of their conditioning, to face that particular slice of reality.

"Do you think religion should be stamped out or banned?"

No. But it shouldn't have any special place above from criticism. We only get one go at a thin slice of consciousness, in the universe. If religion makes you happy you should be allowed to engage in it, but you shouldn't be able to hurt others because of your delusions.

Geepers is obviously not going to engage on this with any level of fairness, so I'm not going to bother answering his particular questions.

[Sitnam]

This thread is disappointing, far from a great debate, it's really a self affirming circle-jerk echo chamber directed at an audience of one who is certainly not interested in reading it.

Carry on.

[John Mace]

Originally Posted by Sitnam

This thread is disappointing, far from a great debate, it's really a self affirming circle-jerk echo chamber directed at an audience of one who is certainly not interested in reading it.

Wait until a certain poster known only by the color of his shirt chimes in.

Well, I think we've done this "why are you an atheist" or "when/how did you become an atheist" thing many times before in this forum, so I don't feel like repeating myself. Suffice it to say that people can believe whatever they want as far as I'm concerned, as long as they don't force me to believe it, too. My world view is informed by science, and while religion has generated some nice art and literature, that's as far as it goes with me.

[kenetic]

Originally Posted by Sitnam

This thread is disappointing, far from a great debate, it's really a self affirming circle-jerk echo chamber directed at an audience of one who is certainly not interested in reading it.

Carry on.

I think the point it to have something to link to next time someone tries to strawman what atheists think.

[Marley23]

Originally Posted by Sitnam

This thread is disappointing, far from a great debate, it's really a self affirming circle-jerk echo chamber directed at an audience of one who is certainly not interested in reading it.

Please don't threadshit. Anybody can participate or discuss any of the issues raised here. It was inspired by one person who I would like to read it, but that's out of my hands. Perhaps other people could find something interesting here anyway.

[Really Not All That Bright]

Originally Posted by Marley23

Starting with the obvious question: "Why are you an atheist?"

Because people who did not understand the mechanics of rainfall or gravity are highly unlikely to have understood the mechanics of philosophy or metaphysics. Or, more succinctly, because the only supporting evidence for the existence of a supreme being is the subjective beliefs of other people.

"People across all kinds of cultures and throughout histories have religions, and many of them are pretty similar. Doesn't that suggest they're on to something?"

People across all kinds of cultures thought bad smells would make them sick. Clearly, they weren't on to anything there.

All it suggests is that lots of people made similar guesses when asked to explain things they had no rational answer for.

"Did something happen to you to make you an atheist?"

Not that I can think of. I was raised in a (lax) Hindu household, and I attended Anglican schools. My stepfather was a survivor of the Partition of India, which inculcated a deep seated hatred of religion in him (having watched thousands of people killed in the name of religion), but I was at least a deist before I met him.

"Are you angry at god?"

No more than at the Terminator or Dracula.

"Do you hate religion?"

I think it retards people's mental development. I also think it gives people a forum in which to do good things. If I have a problem with religion, it's that it invariably leads to entrenched belief systems.

"Do you think religious people are stupid?"

I think they have a greater tendency to avoid actually thinking about things. Most religious people I know are religious because their parents were, and adopt their parents' beliefs. The mere fact that a person remains in their parents' faith creates a presumption that they're either there because it's politically expedient or because they never thought about it.

"Do you think religion should be stamped out or banned?"

If I could recreate the world without religion, I would do so. However, I certainly wouldn't murder, torture or do other unpleasant things to achieve that end.

[FinnAgain]

"Why are you an atheist?"

I cannot point to a specific moment, but even as a child I began doubting the concept of an omnipotent, omniscient God who made any sense as a deity. As for why I'm an atheist, well, there is no real proof for any 'supernatural' realm, at all. Even if there was, there's no reason to think that Odin isn't in charge and Yahweh is, or what have you. In any case, the null hypothesis holds sway and even though we cannot know certain things 'for certain' in the negative (often because of how they are rhetorically couched), the assumption is still null.

"People across all kinds of cultures and throughout histories have religions, and many of them are pretty similar. Doesn't that suggest they're on to something?"

Even ignoring the variation inherent in "pretty similar", no, it suggests no such thing. There are naturally going to be commonalities among people the world over, including overarching myth structures. The fact that many polytheistic religions had a god in charge of the sun, for example, does not really mean that we must placate Ra so that the sun will crown the vault of heaven tomorrow.

"Did something happen to you to make you an atheist?"

Quite the opposite, I'd say that something happened to make me a theist. As a child I never would have come up with a concept of any specific god on my own, and pretty much grew up with the concept of God that I was taught as a young Reform Jew. But when I started questioning the issue, the whole structure no longer made any real sense to me. I still enjoy religious Jewish life for a number of reasons, but I simply can't get behind theistic implications at this point in my life

"Are you angry at god?"

That's like asking if I'm angry at Lord Voldemort or proud of Frodo. The whole point is that I don't believe in any claims about any gods or the true wishes of any sect's claims about a God. Since I don't believe in any God or gods, I can't be angry at any God or gods. I'd be very surprised to see any self-identified atheist describe him or herself as such.

"Do you hate religion?"

Religion is a collective abstraction, like "food". And just as there is a difference between gas station hot dogs and grilled ribeyes, there is a different between both the ideology and practice of many religions. And as far as I'm concerned, religions which try to stifle science, oppress minorities, etc... are less 'good' than those which dedicate themselves to the improvement of human life.

"Do you think religion is evil?"

See above. It certainly can be. But all things being equal, I'd much prefer to be with Quakers than Aztecs.

"Do you think religious people are stupid?"

Well, yes and no. I think most people are pretty stupid, and religious folks are just a subset of people, we can expect that most religious people are pretty stupid too. I also think that, in part, stupidity is behavioral rather than genetic, and that it can be 'cured' if proper critical thinking habits are adopted. There are, of course, plenty of intelligent, religious people with strong critical thinking skills, so obviously the two sets are not mutually exclusive.

"Do you think religion should be stamped out or banned?"

Well, of course not. Whatever doesn't break my bones or pick my pockets, or what have you. You can do/say/think/chant/whatever any weird thing you want on your own property. Worship Lucky Charms cereal, I don't care.

[Marley23]

Originally Posted by GEEPERS

Obviously, your comments demonstrate an extreme dislike of Christianity.

This is what I was saying earlier: it's evident you don't know much of anything about atheism (or Islam or other religions) except through the framework of what Christianity teaches about them.

Going backward again: What claims do you expect atheists to agree with, and how do we compare the truthfulness of one religion against another? I don't think Adam being 90 feet tall (if Islam teaches that) makes any less sense than Adam living to 900 or lots of other religious claims.

[Jack Batty]

In an effort to come at these questions from a fresh perspective, and totally not because I'm too lazy to read 30-some-odd posts, I have only read the OP, and very little of that, at best.

Consider me tabula rasa; and away we go:

"Why are you an atheist?"
I couldn't help it. I was born that way.

"People across all kinds of cultures and throughout histories have religions, and many of them are pretty similar. Doesn't that suggest they're on to something?"
Monkey see ... monkey do.

"Did something happen to you to make you an atheist?"
No. Nothing happened to me to make me a theist, so ... there I was.

"Are you angry at god?"
Considering my position, I find this question ridiculous.

"Do you hate religion?"
No. Honestly, I'm amused by it. When I hear someone, of any religion, talk fervently about supernatural claims, deep down, I'm amazed that actual grown-ups buy into weird shit like that.

"Do you think religion is evil?"
Religion is a tool. Man is evil.

"Do you think religious people are stupid?"
A great many of them. But then, I think a great many of people in general are stupid. And I don't exclude myself from that shallow pool. I could be dumb as a stump for all I know.

"Do you think religion should be stamped out or banned?"
And what good would that do? You can't talk stupid people out of being stupid. As long as there people out there willing to say whatever it takes to manipulate other people, there will be religion; whether it's Christianity, Islam, Shinto, Paganism, or the Holy Church of Batty's Left Nut ... if someone's buying, then someone's selling.

[Musicat]

Picking and choosing some questions from the list...

"Why are you an atheist?"

See question #3.

"People across all kinds of cultures and throughout histories have religions, and many of them are pretty similar. Doesn't that suggest they're on to something?"

People believe idiotic things, and communal reinforcement doesn't lead to the truth, but suppression of unpopular beliefs.

"Did something happen to you to make you an atheist?"

I grew up in a fundamentalist Christian family. I was given literature from such sources as the Moody Bible Institute which, in my youth, I thought made good arguments for the veracity of the Bible and the Love of Jesus Christ, our Saviour. Not to mention the sermons in church every Sunday, Bible school, and association with other fundamentalists in and around the family. Questioning these beliefs was not an option in this society.

I was always interested in magic (the conjurer kind), and became acquainted with lectures, workshops and seminars given by CSICOP, James Randi, Paul Kurtz, Michael Shermer, Joe Nickell, Ray Hyman, and others of that ilk. They taught me how easily we can be fooled and how important it is to require evidence, and evaluate evidence for beliefs that challenge accepted knowledge.

From that start, it was an obvious jump to reject most of my religious upbringing. I sometimes go back to the Moody books and I now find it easy to pick out the falsehoods, special pleadings, and fallacies that once misled me.

Almost forgot...an important book that fits very well in the category of self-deception is How To Lie With Statistics, by Darrell Huff. Highly recommended for everyone.

"Are you angry at god?"

God who?

"Do you think religion is evil?"

It can be used as a justification for evil. It can also be used for good, but too often and too easily the scales are tipped the wrong way. "God says..." is the most dangerous phrase in our language.

[Sam Stone]

Why are you an atheist?
When I was a small child, I was steeped in religion. My family was a very devout bunch of Mennonites, and we had to pray every morning, every evening, before every meal, and whenever we were feeling hurt or confused about something. We had bible study one night a week and two church services on Sunday. For the first ten years of my life or so, I fervently believed in God. I felt I basked in his righteous glow and was saved for eternity, and I felt very sorry for people who did not believe.

As I got older, I started to notice things. At first it was the inconsistencies in the stories I was being taught. Next was the behavior of many of the people in the church, who turned out to be not all that nice when they weren't communing with God - just like everyone else.

When I asked my parents or ministers about the inconsistencies in the bible or the conflicts with what we know to be science today, rather than decent answers I'd get shocked looks followed by prayers for my soul. Needless to say, that was disappointing.

One day I just realized that I no longer believed. At first, it was a bit scary - that warm glow of being in the presence of God was no longer there. But then it became liberating. I was free to follow my own conscience, follow my own lines of evidence and draw my own conclusions about the world, and develop my own moral code. Science gave answers that religion couldn't, and that was enough for me.

There are things I still don't know and that science doesn't know, and that's also alright with me - I'm comfortable being just one more autonomous, sentient being in the universe, playing my small part in the grand evolution of the cosmos. I certainly understand that that's not enough for everyone.

People across all kinds of cultures and throughout histories have religions, and many of them are pretty similar. Doesn't that suggest they're on to something?
I think religion is an artifact of two things - a brain that has evolved with the survival trait of wanting to always assign causation to perceived events, and an inability to understand our own mortality.

Our need to assign causation to random or inexplicable events has also led large numbers of people to gamble, to believe in woo like magic and clairvoyance, and it causes baseball players to tap their shoes exactly X times before batting or to wear their lucky amulet during a game. That doesn't make it real.

Religion has also been called the opiate of the masses - historically, it gave hope to people living under despotic leaders or in backbreaking poverty - hope that so long as they continued to work and to believe, one day it will all be better.

Organized religion has served the ruling classes well. Many of the admonishments in the bible were clearly intended to control the behavior of populations and to maintain social cohesion and public health. It makes sense that pork would be an 'unclean' meat - back in the day, it was a dangerous food. Prohibition against adultery and coveting a neighbor's things is very useful in keeping smaller communities from killing each other.

Giving leaders the imprimatur of God's right hand is useful in lending authority to their pronouncements. And so it goes. Religion has been very useful to those who would organize and control others - especially in times past.


Did something happen to you to make you an atheist?
Yeah. I started reading and thinking for myself. It helped that my own relatives were, in a couple of instances, really nasty people who nonetheless were high level members of the church and therefore given all kinds of latitude for their crappy behavior. That made me cynical. But ultimately, my non-belief came from a study of the evidence and the very unsatisfactory answers the church gave to my inquiries.


Are you angry at god?
I'm angry at people who use God as a justification for doing nasty things on Earth, or people who use the fear of God to control others. But I can be no more angry at God than I am angry with Baal, or Zeuss, or Cthulhu.

Do you hate religion?
Nope. It gives a lot of comfort to a lot of people, and in many cases religious organizations do a lot of good. Christian values align pretty well with my own, other than the intolerance to gays and the silly creationist stuff. I believe that most of the 10 commandments are actually pretty good rules for living. When I stopped believing in God, I still followed most of the Christian rules for living.

I do wish that modern religions made more room for science and evolved into a more sophisticated mode of thinking. You can fit the round peg of Christianity into the square hole of science, but you have to be willing to re-interpret it in light of what we now understand about the universe. I do not like those who flat out reject the evidence of thousands of years of study and understanding simply because it contradicts the literal interpretation of their chosen religious text.


Do you think religion is evil?
No. Specific religions may be. Any religion that requires you to toss a virgin in a volcano or cut the heart out of an unlucky peasant is pretty evil, y'know? But that's not a blanket condemnation of religion.

Do you think religious people are stupid?
No. Some of the smartest people in history were very devout. Gregor Mendel was a monk. Isaac Newton was devout. There are great scientists today who are very religious.

I do think it takes intelligence to be able to marry your religion with what is known to be factual about the world, and to do so in a way that is consistent and reasonable. Most people probably don't even bother trying - they just accept both, and don't think too hard about the conflicts, because they like being religious and they also like being modern.

Do you think religion should be stamped out or banned?
Absolutely not. People have a right to believe whatever they want. If their religion causes them to interfere with other people, we have a problem. But the same is true of athiesm - an athiest who runs around trying to get government to 'stamp out' religion is just as evil as a religious person trying to use government to criminalize behaviour that is contradictory to scripture.

[Nametag]

Why are you an atheist?"

I just can't believe it. Everything in the universe has an explanation that is, to me, easier to believe than "God did it." When I look at the gyrations necessary to twist the facts -- facts that I can see with my own eyes, or that have been proven time and again -- to align with the miracles and religious stories; when I look at the knots tied in logic when believers try to square a benevolent god with all the shitty things that happen in the world; when I look at the unknown and unknowable things that theists take on faith: I see pointless effort devoted to belief for the sake of believing. It's not for me.

Not all religions require adherents to believe impossible things, of course, but they all require assuming facts not in evidence. Again, not for me.

"People across all kinds of cultures and throughout histories have religions, and many of them are pretty similar. Doesn't that suggest they're on to something?"

No. The great majority of people are wrong about many things.

"Did something happen to you to make you an atheist?"

Not really. I was a Christian for a while, in high school, and the first year or two of college, and found it challenging to keep believing. When I moved away from home to go to a better college, and thus moved away from my conveniently located home church, a few months away from the constant reinforcement was all it took. The tortured logic, the hollowness of the promises, and the emptiness of prayer drove me away, once I had some time to think for myself.

"Are you angry at god?"

No. There's nothing there. I have, at times, thought that if there were a god, he'd have a lot to answer for.

"Do you hate religion?"

No. There are some religious people I don't care for much, but religion itself is too vast and varied to have a single position on it.

"Do you think religion is evil?"

No. I think some religious people are. I think some believers are tragic, I think others are quite magnificent. I think most people are fearful, greedy, and ignorant: some are held in check by their religion, for which I am grateful, and I think others are enabled by their religion, which can be a horror.

"Do you think religious people are stupid?"

I think most people are stupid, and I think there's a special kind of stupid that comes with faith, sometimes. But plenty of smart people are religious, and while I think they're wrong, I can't prove it.

"Do you think religion should be stamped out or banned?"

No, though I sometimes wish it would just go away. As fascinating a study as it is, I'd rather see it through the lens of history than in the mirror of society.

[Sudden Kestrel]

Here are the responses from my very simplistic atheist viewpoint. I have specifically avoided reading the previous posts to keep from being influenced by them.

"Why are you an atheist?" Because I was born that way, or at least that's the way it feels. I seem to lack the ability to believe in anything for which I have no objective evidence. I really tried to practice and believe in all of the things I was taught in Methodist Sunday school and church, but even as a small child I recognized that it was only a very nice story. In adulthood, as I read about and discussed other religions, I recognized the same fictions but with different details.

"People across all kinds of cultures and throughout histories have religions, and many of them are pretty similar. Doesn't that suggest they're on to something?" No. To me it suggests that they are all trying to answer the same questions or solve the same problems. Since all of them are human and have the same basic needs and fears, it would be surprising if there weren't some commonalities in the answers they proposed.

"Did something happen to you to make you an atheist?" Not at all. As I said above, I seem to have been born that way. I didn't come from a very religious family and never felt any kind of religious pressure other than that exerted by American society in general. I had the opportunity to explore different religions throughout my life and never had any interest in them.

"Are you angry at god?" God who? No, I'm not angry at any object, entity or event in regard to religion.

"Do you hate religion?" No. I think the strongest feeling I can muster up is indifference. I tend to be pretty laid back and accepting as a rule, so hatred is just not my thing, I guess.

"Do you think religion is evil?" Sometimes it is. Sometimes it is responsible for great good. Pretty much like people in general.

"Do you think religious people are stupid?" Not all of them. Not even most of them. There are also a hell of a lot of stupid atheists. Unfortunately, the stupid religious people and the stupid atheists are the loudest in their respective groups, so that's all we hear about.

"Do you think religion should be stamped out or banned?" No, not even if such a thing were possible. I think religion gives great joy and fulfillment to some people and makes their lives better. Some religious people do a lot of things that make the lives of others better. I do think religion needs to be completely absent from our government and our laws, however.

From GEEPERS' comments as listed in the OP, I'd say he makes a lot of assumptions about atheists in general that are based on very limited interactions with actual atheists. Just based on his assertion that "atheists" all do or think the same way, I doubt he'll be open to discussion. Marley23 seems to have addressed those comments appropriately.

[Sudden Kestrel]

Originally Posted by Sudden Kestrel

From GEEPERS' comments as listed in the OP, I'd say he makes a lot of assumptions about atheists in general that are based on very limited interactions with actual atheists. Just based on his assertion that "atheists" all do or think the same way, I doubt he'll be open to discussion.

I hate to say "I told you so," but...

[Sandwich]

I'm an atheist the same way that the Archbishop of Canterbury is a lunar afromagist. It's not an attitude which is significant enough to require a detailed rationale.

Sandwich

Definition: lunar fromagism - the conviction that the moon is made of cheese.

Lunar fromagists must not be considered a homogenous group. The main divisions are the fromagists and formaggists, who follow the French and Roman traditions respectively. In both traditions believers are divided between verdants and others. The verdants insist that the moon is comprised exclusively of green cheese. Internationally, Cheddarism is a widespread legacy of the British empire.

Fromagists claim, with apparent sincerity and lack of irony, that they cannot even comprehend the simple afromagist position. They will insist that afromagism has to be divided into weak afromagism and strong afromagism, and have developed elaborate arguments which prove that both are wrong. Apparently, these hinge on very precise definitions of the meaning of 'cheese'.

[gamerunknown]

Originally Posted by Blaster Master

It's no different than, say, the WBC and their "God Hates Fags" campaign.

Which atheists do you think are equivalent to the Westboro Baptist Church? More explicitly, could you quote their most bigoted statements?

[Der Trihs]

"Why are you an atheist?" Because all the evidence supports it. Because all the evidence is against religion. Because religion is blatantly a collection of made up nonsense. Because there's no rational reason not to be, and atheism is the logical default position.

"People across all kinds of cultures and throughout histories have religions, and many of them are pretty similar. Doesn't that suggest they're on to something?" No, it doesn't. Historically slavery was endemic as well; that didn't mean the slavers were "on to something". The belief that women are inferior, belief in magic, torture, genocide, geocentrism, racism; all sorts of evil, irrational or just plain wrong beliefs and practices have been widespread.

"Did something happen to you to make you an atheist?" Not that I can think of.

"Are you angry at god?" No, he's a fictional character, and one poorly written and characterized enough that it's hard to get worked up about his villainy. In the abstract he's a very despicable character, though.

"Do you hate religion?" Yes. It's evil, cruel and destructive. A mind virus that turns people into tools to spread itself regardless of the cost to them or anyone else. I put it in much the same category as smallpox or AIDS; something innately hostile to humanity, something that preys upon us.

"Do you think religion is evil?" Yes.

"Do you think religious people are stupid?" Some are; most are religious because they are fools or outright irrational, not because they're stupid. Religion is such obvious nonsense that stupidity is an insufficient explanation for why someone would believe it. Anyone so stupid as to be unable to see through religion because of it would be so stupid as to be barely able to function out of an institution.

"Do you think religion should be stamped out or banned?" Not by force; that has both ethical and practical problem. However yes, ideally it will eventually be driven out of existence as have so many other destructive and irrational practices; or at least be relegated to something followed only by the lunatic fringe.

[pseudotriton ruber ruber]

"Why are you an atheist?" Because there's no reason not to be. This like asking "Why are your feet touching the ground most of the time?" Because I'm built that way.

"People across all kinds of cultures and throughout histories have religions, and many of them are pretty similar. Doesn't that suggest they're on to something?" People across all kinds of cultures did all sorts of shit in primitive times, some of which has survived to this day, including religion.

"Did something happen to you to make you an atheist?" Yes. I started enjoying full access to my brain.

"Are you angry at god?" Who's he?

"Do you hate religion?" In the same sense that I hate smallpox.

"Do you think religion is evil?" Overall? Put all the Renaissance art and the literate sermons of Jonathan Edwards and Martin Scorcese movies and other stuff on one side, and all the genocide and hatred on the other, and I'd have to give you an easy Yes.

"Do you think religious people are stupid?" More so than irreligious people, but not by a whole lot. People are pretty stupid, religious folks more obviously so.

"Do you think religion should be stamped out or banned?" I think it WILL be stamped out and banned, eventually, but we're a long way from that sort of enlightened thinking.[/quote]

[Fear Itself]

Because I concluded I make fewer mistakes when I base my beliefs on a reality grounded in the scientific method, and not blind faith in someone else's anecdotes or retelling of bronze age myths. I reduced my atheism down to this: I don't believe in any invisible beings that interact with people in any way. No ghosts, spirits, souls, gods, angels, demons or any other invisible spooks.

Life is so much simpler when you are not always afraid of what the invisible spooks are going to do to screw up your life, or what you must do to influence the invisible spooks to make your life better. It is sort of a metaphysical Libertarianism; I am responsible for my life, I am not dependent on invisible spooks for the good things, nor can I blame them for the bad things. Life is hard enough without worrying about invisible spooks.

[Alka Seltzer]

"Why are you an atheist?"

It's a straightforward consequence of my sceptical outlook, I don't believe things without evidence.

"People across all kinds of cultures and throughout histories have religions, and many of them are pretty similar. Doesn't that suggest they're on to something?"

And many of them are very different and contradictory. At best, most of them must be false, and there is no reason why they can't all be untrue. This becomes more apparent when you look at single religions in detail, and find that it's practitioners can't agree on anything of substance.

"Did something happen to you to make you an atheist?"

There was no single event. I was never deeply indoctrinated into Christianity. Growing up, I mostly associated church events with boredom. I found some of the stories and parables meaningful (and still do), but I found the crucifixion baffling. When I became old enough to understand it, I found it absurd.

"Are you angry at god?"

I'm angry at those who use religion to promote their prejudices.

"Do you hate religion?"

Not as a whole, it's part of our culture and history. As such, it's a mix of the admirable and painful. I reserve my hate for religious extremism.

"Do you think religion is evil?"

Not intrinsically, it can be compatible with an ethical outlook, but there are plenty of examples where it has become repressive. As have various secular organisations and governments, but religion and bigotry is a particularly dangerous combination, and fuel for any conflict.

"Do you think religious people are stupid?"

There is no such thing as stereotypical theist. Possibly atheists are on average slightly better educated than theists.

"Do you think religion should be stamped out or banned?"

No, that would require horrendous levels of repression, and would be a violation of people's rights. Abolishing tax breaks for religious institutions should be considered, but I'd be concerned about the possible impact on their community and charitable work, so I'm not sure I'd be willing to even go that far. What I would like is religion to dwindle away and become less of an influence on our lives, but trying to enforce this would be counter-productive.

[J Cubed]

Originally Posted by Sitnam

This thread is disappointing, far from a great debate, it's really a self affirming circle-jerk echo chamber directed at an audience of one who is certainly not interested in reading it.

Sounds like church.