Is Asinine Parsimony an especially American thing?

[septimus]

U.S. airlines used to be fun to fly. Free food; free booze; overweight luggage was usually OK especially if you smile at the check-in station. Now prices are driven down by shoppers trying to save a dollar, so the airlines have to make up for it by charging for movies and soft drinks.

Filling your gas tank used to be pleasant. An attendant would wash your windows and check your oil. It would cost a bit more but ... hey! There's an unemployment problem today anyway. If Americans don't want to spend an extra 20 cents per gallon financing the Liberul Welfare State, why not spend it subsidizing our unemployed young?

Where I live in Asia, airlines and gas stations are still full-service ... service which comes with a smile.

And now I read this recently-unzombified thread:

Originally Posted by suranyi

How could one buy a 44 cent stamp at the Post Office without pennies?

And don't say "round up to 45 cents".

Our post office charges 2½ baht per envelope but even though there are ½-baht coins in circulation they round up to the higher baht. No one complains, despite that ½-baht is worth more than a penny (in fact close to $.15 in earning power). At markets and informal stores almost everything is priced as a multiple of 5 baht (over $1 in equivalent "earning power"!)

Originally Posted by wheresgeorge04

Where I work, our Marlboro cigarettes, all styles, used to come to, after tax, $5.26. If I gave everyone who bought a pack using $6.00 in cash $.75 change instead of $.74, my register would be short probably a quarter over one shift.... Over a month, $30 profit, down the shitter.

Maybe your manager will raise the price to $5.29 and screw the customers out of the penny instead. But probably he won't bother: $30 just isn't as much as you think it is, even if it's (hyperbolically) "down the shitter."

BTW, one complication U.S. has is that sales tax, at least in California, varies widely. (The Marlboro store across the street is in a different flood control district, with a different tax rate. ) I've never heard of such fine-tuning of tax rates in other countries ... probably because, again, people just aren't as obsessed with getting "screwed" out of an odd nickel because their neighbors needed flood control.

Originally Posted by Shakester

Every few months Americans gather here to argue this same question, over and over again....
Every time, the dirty furriners are ignored and the Americans continue to argue the same stupid shit back and forth endlessly....

Yes. I was born in the U.S.A. so am bad-mouthing my own kin, but, frankly, it's often very hard to believe these are the same people who won the World Wars and landed on the Moon.

[Cicero]

Originally Posted by septimus

Yes. I was born in the U.S.A. so am bad-mouthing my own kin, but, frankly, it's often very hard to believe these are the same people who won the World Wars and landed on the Moon.

Won the World Wars? You may be closer to saying they were on the winning side.

However, back to the topic, there are skinflints everywhere. It's not a USA alone thing.

[Alessan]

I have a feeling that the phenomenon noted in the OP are top-down rather than bottom-up - from corporations trying to reduce their quarterly expenses.

[Dave Hartwick]

I think it works both ways. American Airlines is trying to capture the cheapskate market and so it tightens rules and charges for extras. I'm sure they didn't do this without having asked customers exactly what they'd do without. However, in my experience, no frills flying isn't particularly American. Qantas and Virgin Blue charge for entertainment on domestic flights, I believe.

The hanging onto the penny really is dumb. They're worth so little that shopkeepers leave a bowl of them next to the register, yet every time a the subject of discontinuing the penny arises, somebody will say that it would be an excuse for prices to go up. No excuse is required. So the government continues to produce a coin that costs more than it's worth.

Another example of suspect thrift is allowing Walmart to dictate to producers. I recently read that Rubbermaid moved some of its manufacturing overseas-- costing decent American jobs-- because Walmart demanded lower prices. Sure, low prices help consumers, but they're cold comfort to somebody who got laid off or had to accept a pay cut.

[Kobal2]

I don't think it is.
French here. I don't care for chump change in my pockets since it all goes into a big jar at the end of the day, and you can't buy anything with 600 1-cent coins without feeling like a massive tool & slowing down the whole line while the cashier painstakingly recounts that shit ; so I often tell people to keep the change when it's under 20 Euro-cents.

The amount of "Wh...what ? Are you insane ? That's MONEY! You're throwing away MONEY!" looks I get, from both cashiers and the customers behind me, never ceases to surprise me.

[Ferret Herder]

Ryanair was installing pay toilets on its planes. I don't think anything that the US-based airline carriers have done measures up to that.

[lisiate]

Originally Posted by Kobal2

I don't think it is.
French here. I don't care for chump change in my pockets since it all goes into a big jar at the end of the day, and you can't buy anything with 600 1-cent coins without feeling like a massive tool & slowing down the whole line while the cashier painstakingly recounts that shit ; so I often tell people to keep the change when it's under 20 Euro-cents.

The amount of "Wh...what ? Are you insane ? That's MONEY! You're throwing away MONEY!" looks I get, from both cashiers and the customers behind me, never ceases to surprise me.

In defence of the cashiers there might be another reason for their reaction. If their till's out at the end of the shift they'll have some explaining to do to the manager. And god help them if they're seen taking money out of the till and pocketing it. (How else would they keep the change?).

[Lord Mondegreen]

Originally Posted by Dave Hartwick

Qantas and Virgin Blue charge for entertainment on domestic flights, I believe.

I agree with most of your post, however I'll nitpick here. Qantas don't charge for entertainment - they hand out headsets for free. They also serve a snack and tea/coffee on the Canberra to Sydney route even though the aircraft is only in the air for about 20 minutes. After 4 pm on a weekday the booze is also free. Oh, and no charge for checked luggage.

[Dave Hartwick]

Originally Posted by Lord Mondegreen

I agree with most of your post, however I'll nitpick here. Qantas don't charge for entertainment - they hand out headsets for free. They also serve a snack and tea/coffee on the Canberra to Sydney route even though the aircraft is only in the air for about 20 minutes. After 4 pm on a weekday the booze is also free. Oh, and no charge for checked luggage.

Yeah, my memory was sketchy. Thanks for the correction. Virgin does charge for entertainment? I'm almost certain I was on a domestic flight once where you had to pay if you wanted to watch anything other than commercials.

[ExcitedIdiot]

Originally Posted by Dave Hartwick

Another example of suspect thrift is allowing Walmart to dictate to producers. I recently read that Rubbermaid moved some of its manufacturing overseas-- costing decent American jobs-- because Walmart demanded lower prices. Sure, low prices help consumers, but they're cold comfort to somebody who got laid off or had to accept a pay cut.

I'm so sick of hearing about this.

Large companies buy lots of product. Buying lots of product gives you leverage. Leverage allows you to negotiate lower prices. Rubbermaid could tell Walmart to go pound sand. They could refuse to outsource jobs. Americans could refuse to buy foreign made products.

A manufacturer outsourced jobs, and somehow one of their retailers is taking the blame for it.

[Martini Enfield]

Originally Posted by ExcitedIdiot

I'm so sick of hearing about this.

Large companies buy lots of product. Buying lots of product gives you leverage. Leverage allows you to negotiate lower prices. Rubbermaid could tell Walmart to go pound sand. They could refuse to outsource jobs. Americans could refuse to buy foreign made products.

A manufacturer outsourced jobs, and somehow one of their retailers is taking the blame for it.

It's possible - and I don't have all the facts with me, so I'm speaking in generalities and hypotheticals here - that the retailer had become such a large client of the manufacturer that refusing to play ball would mean the retailer would take their business elsewhere and the manufacturer would collapse without their major account. So in that case, yeah, it is sort of the retailer's fault (although the manufacturer has to take some of the blame for not adequately diversifying their accounts as well).

[Odesio]

Originally Posted by septimus

Now prices are driven down by shoppers trying to save a dollar, so the airlines have to make up for it by charging for movies and soft drinks.

When I flew on Pan Am from New York to Frankfort in the 1980s my parents had to pay extra so that I could hear the movie being shown.

Filling your gas tank used to be pleasant. An attendant would wash your windows and check your oil. It would cost a bit more but ... hey! There's an unemployment problem today anyway.

I went to New Jersey for the first time last year and it was just bizarre that it was illegal for me to fill my own gas tank. I'm so used to pumping my own gas that I'm more comfortable doing it myself rather than having someone else do it for me.

I've never heard of such fine-tuning of tax rates in other countries ... probably because, again, people just aren't as obsessed with getting "screwed" out of an odd nickel because their neighbors needed flood control.

In some states it's the schools which are paid for out of sales taxes. At any rate, maybe the United States just has a bit more autonomy when it comes to local jurisdictions than most other countries. I know my British friends have been amazed at the sheer number of elected officials we have in the United States.

[emcee2k]

Why would you assume this was an American thing?

[Jackknifed Juggernaut]

Have you seen how much Europeans and Asians tip?

[Nava]

Originally Posted by Jackknifed Juggernaut

Have you seen how much Europeans and Asians tip?

Have you compared the salary of European and Asian waiters with that of American ones?

[enipla]

I much prefer to pump my own gas. It's much faster. I can do it. Let me.

[Ferret Herder]

Oh, and I'm sure they're out there, but I can't think of any US airlines that charge for water, soda, juice, or coffee. Booze, yes. I haven't seen any PPV movies on one yet. Plus they used to rent headsets for $5, now American Airlines sells them for $2.

[Blank Slate]

Originally Posted by enipla

I much prefer to pump my own gas. It's much faster. I can do it. Let me.

Buying gas in New Jersey sucks except for the fact that it's usually cheaper than the neighboring states. Typically, you have to wait for the attendant to come to your window, wait for them to start pumping, wait for them to take out the hose followed by more waiting while they take, process and return your card. It's ridiculously inefficient. I always carry cash for gas stops there so I can just fork it over at the beginning and hope I don't need change.

[Kimmy_Gibbler]

Originally Posted by Nava

Have you compared the salary of European and Asian waiters with that of American ones?

Isn't that the OP's point, to the extent that there is one (and of this, I am not sure)....

Why do Europeans and Asians begrudge paying waiters a good wage and a generous tip?

[74westy]

Originally Posted by Kimmy_Gibbler

Why do Europeans and Asians begrudge paying waiters a good wage and a generous tip?

Why do Americans begrudge paying waiters a generous tip and a good wage.

[Ludovic]

I saw them open for the Butthole Surfers.

[Batfish]

Originally Posted by Ludovic

I saw them open for the Butthole Surfers.

I've always wondered, are the Butthole Surfers surfers who happen to be buttholes? Or persons who "surf" buttholes?

[furt]

I'm American, but I've never once seen an airline charge for sodas.

I prefer pumping my own gas. Saving a buck on it is gravy.

I throw pennies away.



Clarify argument and provide better examples for second draft.

[Ludovic]

[serious answer]Persons who surf buttholes, i.e. engage in anal sex. Back in the heyday of punk rebellion and when homophobia was still acceptable, some bands named themselves after homosexuals* in order to piss everyone off -- the "squares" who were offended that they were named after homosexuals (or didn't get the joke and thought they were made up of gays), and the politically correct who were offended by the use of anti-homosexual pejoratives.

*yes I know, not that many gays engage in teh anal.

[Ravenman]

Originally Posted by Ludovic

[serious answer]Persons who surf buttholes, i.e. engage in anal sex. Back in the heyday of punk rebellion and when homophobia was still acceptable, some bands named themselves after homosexuals* in order to piss everyone off -- the "squares" who were offended that they were named after homosexuals (or didn't get the joke and thought they were made up of gays), and the politically correct who were offended by the use of anti-homosexual pejoratives.

*yes I know, not that many gays engage in teh anal.

I've always heard that they performed under a bunch of ad hoc names, but had a song named Butthole Surfer. At one gig the MC forgot their name and just called them the name of the song that he knew, and the name finally stuck. But the song does seem to rely on, uh, sexual themes. But it seem the band name is as much chance as design.

[tellyworth]

Australians are somewhat notorious for complaining about how expensive everything is. But one thing you don't hear is, complaining about losing money due to rounding off. All prices are rounded to the nearest 5c, have been for 20 years, and I don't think I've heard a complaint about it since about 3 weeks after it started.

[salinqmind]

I only wish they had more gas stations here that have guys come out and fill up your car. What an ordeal in the winter! Park at a pump. Make your way inside, stand in line, fork over cash (trying to remember the number of the pump), make your way back out. Unscrew gas cap, insert pump, squeeze handle (which keeps sputtering off and on! off and on! ten cents worth of gas - stop! Squeeze! ten cents more of gas - stop! Squeeze! Repeat.) All this in howling freezing wind and snow, hands dead numb. Drive off. Turn around and go back for gas cap. Blah! I want a uniformed attendant waiting on me, I would pay an extra buck in the winter!

[Uzi]

Originally Posted by salinqmind

Park at a pump. Make your way inside, stand in line, fork over cash (trying to remember the number of the pump), make your way back out.

It's called 'Pay at the Pump'. You swipe your credit or debit card at the pump then start pumping. Where do you live, Bedrock?

[Kimmy_Gibbler]

Originally Posted by 74westy

Why do Americans begrudge paying waiters a generous tip and a good wage.

I asked first.

[Blaster Master]

I actually like the way we do things. Sure, it's nice to get "free" things from a business, but the bottom line is that it's not free, you're paying for it, you're just not being given an itemized bill.

Using the airline flight as an example, if I'm offered a free glass of wine or whatever, sure, I'll take it. But really the way that works is you're charged the cost of the flight plus the amortized cost of the "free" drinks. For some people, they'd rather not pay that and just not get the free drink. So, instead, they charge the bare minimum of the service and have service fees on top of that. If I'm not really that interested in drinking on the flight, why should I have to pay more so others can?

Sure, it can be a big pain in the ass to get nickled and dimed, and probably most times I'd rather just pay a little more than I need to to avoid that hassle, but in the end it does give the consumer more control over their spending. So I do think that some businesses take it too far, and airline travel is probably one of the worst offenders charging for headphones and drinks and checked baggage and all that sort of stuff, some of which works out to next to nothing and most people would want.

[septimus]

Originally Posted by Blaster Master

I actually like the way we do things. Sure, it's nice to get "free" things from a business, but the bottom line is that it's not free, you're paying for it, you're just not being given an itemized bill.

Using the airline flight as an example, if I'm offered a free glass of wine or whatever, sure, I'll take it. But really the way that works is you're charged the cost of the flight plus the amortized cost of the "free" drinks. For some people, they'd rather not pay that and just not get the free drink. So, instead, they charge the bare minimum of the service and have service fees on top of that. If I'm not really that interested in drinking on the flight, why should I have to pay more so others can?

Sure, it can be a big pain in the ass to get nickled and dimed, and probably most times I'd rather just pay a little more than I need to to avoid that hassle, but in the end it does give the consumer more control over their spending. So I do think that some businesses take it too far, and airline travel is probably one of the worst offenders charging for headphones and drinks and checked baggage and all that sort of stuff, some of which works out to next to nothing and most people would want.

I agree with all this up to a point. The goal is to find the right compromise between efficiency (and hyper-parsimony) and convenience (and relaxing generosity).

You don't go to the barber and say "I don't need my sideburns trimmed ... can you give me 30 cents off?" Or, at the sandwich shop "Hold the lettuce ... and knock 20 cents off."

The question is: Where do you draw the line? Some views, especially the notion that a penny is an important amount of money, lead me to think Americans draw the line too far towards efficiency/hyper-parsimony.

[rogerbox]

I'm an American in asia as we speak, and you regularly are asked for the equivelent of (according to google) 0.00589625 U.S. dollars to make the change a nice round number, so no, it is not an especially American tradition to be hyper anal about pricing.

Do as the romans do.