Killing T-Rex with a gun

[MaxTheVool]

I know very little about guns, ammo and/or hunting. But I've heard two things that seem contradictory, so I'd like some info:

(1) I've heard (I think on This American Life) a length and knowledgeable-seeming discussion of what kind of gun you'd need in order to kill a T-Rex if you were being attacked by one, with the consensus being "some kind of frickin' enormous rifle, and hope you're lucky"

(2) I've also read/heard various descriptions of types of bullets, such as "hollow point", which are designed to do gruesome amount of damage to people when fired out of a pistol, ie, the entrance wound is the size of a bullet but then the exit wound is the size of a grapefruit.


So... seems to me that a fairly small gun hitting T-Rex at the center of mass could still do a relatively huge amount of damage. Say, an uzi firing hollow point bullets. If I can point it at his belly and hold the trigger down and hit him with 5 or 6 shots as he charges me, and each one punches a hole the size of a grapefruit all the way through his torso, isn't that going to put a pretty serious hurting on him?

[runner pat]

Pistol caliber hollowpoint bullets(which the Uzi fires) only penetrate 12-15 inches to prevent over-penetration in people. Probably won't even reach the vitals of a T-Rex, let alone go through.

Most likely need a .50 BMG or 20mm cannon at minimum.

I know we had a thread recently on this topic.

[Scumpup]

An UZI wouldn't do that to a man, much less a tyrannosaur. Any of the heavy rifles used for elephant and cape buffalo should be able to bring down T-Rex. You'd want to go for busting his hip or pelvis, rather than a brain shot, IMO. Tiny brain in a skull with lots of sinuses. I'd consider. 458 Winchester Magnum loaded with monolithic solids the absolute minimum gun for the job.

[runner pat]

Previous thread.
Could I take down a T. rex with my Beretta 9mm pistol?

[Telemark]

A handgun is extremely unlikely to take out a Grizzly bear unless you are very lucky. A T-Rex presents much more formidable problems.

[Tamerlane]

L. Sprague de Camp in his famous A Gun for a Dinosaur argued for elephant guns like the .600 Nitro Express . Of course he was writing many decades ago. No doubt there are better options today.

[Crafter_Man]

The most important thing is not the caliber of the gun; that's secondary. The most important thing is becoming an expert on the animal's anatomy, and knowing exactly where the brain is. That's how you bring 'em down.

[Lemur866]

Originally Posted by Crafter_Man

The most important thing is not the caliber of the gun; that's secondary. The most important thing is becoming an expert on the animal's anatomy, and knowing exactly where the brain is. That's how you bring 'em down.

The one thing you are absolutely positively not going to be able to do is hit a Tyrannosaur in the brain. Its head is four feet long. Its brain is bigger than a walnut, but not by much, and buried under layers of muscle, skin, bone, air spaces, teeth, and sinus. Trying to hit it in the brain is like trying to fight a mugger by shooting the knife out of his hand.

Now, maybe shooting it in the face is a good way to scare it away. There's probably a lot of sensitive tissue there. Or it might get mad. Tough call. But you're not going to hit the brain.

[Peter Morris]

Originally Posted by Crafter_Man

The most important thing is not the caliber of the gun; that's secondary. The most important thing is becoming an expert on the animal's anatomy, and knowing exactly where the brain is. That's how you bring 'em down.

The really important thing is: don't step on any butterflies.

[Capt Kirk]

The Master speaks

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/...tta-9mm-pistol

[Una Persson]

Originally Posted by Capt Kirk

The Master speaks

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/...tta-9mm-pistol

Thank God somebody reads the column.

[Lumpy]

Not only was T-Rex huge but it's brain would be a small target buried in the back of a big bony head, it might have had osteoderms (bony plating) in it's skin and gastralia- bones armoring the front of it's torso. Definitely maximum penetration is called for here.

This round and the guns that shoot it sounds like a contender: .460 Weatherby Magnum

The .460 Weatherby Magnum was designed as an African dangerous game rifle cartridge for the hunting of heavy, thick skinned dangerous game. The cartridge is billed as the most powerful commercial sporting rifle cartridge available

Typically a full metal jacketed or monolithic solid type bullet will penetrate more than 40 in (1.0 m) when impacting a dangerous game animal such as the Cape Buffalo or African Elephant.

The .460 Weatherby Magnum compares well with the classic English big bore cartridges; it exceeds all these cartridges in velocity, energy, trajectory and penetration

.

The .460 Weatherby is one of the very few rifle cartridges approved by the International Whaling Commission for the harvesting of whales. The cartridge was deemed to have the penetration necessary to penetrate to the brain stem to provide a quick kill on whales.

As a hunting cartridge, the .460 Weatherby Magnum has a very limited role. While it is capable of taking any species of game animal, it is too powerful for most game species. As a hunting cartridge, due to its power, energy and penetration, the .460 Weatherby Magnum has a very limited sporting niche. The .460 Weatherby Magnum is primarily a thick skinned dangerous game cartridge. It is designed to provide the ultimate in stopping power against African elephant, African buffalo, hippopotamus and the rhinoceros. The .460 Weatherby Magnum when loaded to its full potential has little use outside its primary design purpose

[Capt Kirk]

AAAH no wonder they call you runner so fast

[Sasquatch]

Five or six 4-5" holes all the way through would most likely mess up even a T-Rex, assuming they hit something either solid or important.

The problem is no convenient gun will put a hole like that clear through something the size of a big dinosaur. Or even a big non-dinosaur.

It takes energy to shred and displace tissue. A hollowpoint bullet expands, dumps energy quickly, but doesn't penetrate very far. It thus makes a nasty but shallow wound. 5-6 9mm hollowpoints from an Uzi would make 5 or 6 little pockmarks in the exterior flesh and stop. Big game hunters actually tend to use non expanding or slow expanding bullets, they don't make as big a hole, but penetrate far enough to hit vital organs or break bones.

A visualization I've used with some success to straighten out the folks who think a .50 BMG bullet will rip off limbs on a near miss. If this were true, and you know the round has been used to kill people a mile away... if there are 10,000 people lined up side by side with a little gap in between, 2 people per foot for a mile, and you shot a .50 in between the rows, would the bullet rip the arms off all 10,000 people? That's a lot of power, the bullet would have to be putting that energy into the air every foot of travel eh? Makes it obviously unbelievable.

[Craz3d117]

As others have said, an Uzi with 9mm hollow-point rounds is not going to penetrate the center mass of a T-Rex. If we're talking run and gun type weapons I'd probably opt for a fully automatic medium caliber assault rifle, such as an AK-47 with some armor piercing rounds. I would feel much more comfortable with a mounted .50 cal though.

[cornflakes]

On a related note, could The Texans beat The Mexicans at The Alamo with a AK-47 if the Mexicans had a Tyrannosaurus Rex?

[Alka Seltzer]

I'd take a flamethrower. Shooting it with anything smaller than a bazooka would be a bit chancy. A rifle might well inflict a fatal wound, but is it going to chew me up before it goes down? However, I can't see it running through a wall of flame.

Originally Posted by cornflakes

On a related note, could The Texans beat The Mexicans at The Alamo with a AK-47 if the Mexicans had a Tyrannosaurus Rex?

In that scenario, Davy Crockett sacrifices himself by placing a stick of dynamite under his enticing coonskin cap.

[Testy]

Well, you could always use the .577 T- Rex cartridge. It seems made for the job. With a 750 grain projectile moving at 2460 ft/sec and 10K foot pounds of muzzle energy and a recoil that seems entirely unreasonable.

Regards

Testy

[carnivorousplant]

Originally Posted by Alka Seltzer

In that scenario, Davy Crockett sacrifices himself by placing a stick of dynamite under his enticing coonskin cap.

Good answer, Sir.

[Mr. Excellent]

Originally Posted by Alka Seltzer

I'd take a flamethrower. Shooting it with anything smaller than a bazooka would be a bit chancy. A rifle might well inflict a fatal wound, but is it going to chew me up before it goes down? However, I can't see it running through a wall of flame.

Huh. This would be near my last choice for a weapon, actually. (Better than a spear, but not by a whole lot.) Relatively short-range, and while flame is certainly going to be painful, is it going to cook through that much flesh fast enough to incapacitate or kill? Yes, I'm sure it will be painful - but I suspect t-rex (or any animal that feeds on large prey, for that matter) is going to be used to the idea that Dinner Sometimes Hurts. That might not make him stop trying to eat you.

[Ludovic]

Originally Posted by Mr. Excellent

Yes, I'm sure it will be painful - but I suspect t-rex (or any animal that feeds on large prey, for that matter) is going to be used to the idea that Dinner Sometimes Hurts.

Actually, predators, especially nonsocial predators, back off potential injury far more than nonpredators, because any injury that makes it unable to hunt would make it starve. Better to be safe than sorry and wait until you can get an easy meal. Now the question is whether the T Rex would recognize the flame as a threat or not. My thoughts are that it would.

ETA that is if you turn on the flamer well before the T Rex attacks you. If you only use it as a weapon to hurt it rather than as a warning, the dinosaur might maul you to death in the heat of the moment (see what I did there?) before it backed off due to injury.

[Mr. Excellent]

Originally Posted by Ludovic

Actually, predators, especially nonsocial predators, back off potential injury far more than nonpredators, because any injury that makes it unable to hunt would make it starve. Better to be safe than sorry and wait until you can get an easy meal.

Sir, you have fought my ignorance - thank you! If I might trouble you a bit further, would you be so kind as to provide a cite?

[Raguleader]

Originally Posted by Mr. Excellent

Huh. This would be near my last choice for a weapon, actually. (Better than a spear, but not by a whole lot.) Relatively short-range, and while flame is certainly going to be painful, is it going to cook through that much flesh fast enough to incapacitate or kill? Yes, I'm sure it will be painful - but I suspect t-rex (or any animal that feeds on large prey, for that matter) is going to be used to the idea that Dinner Sometimes Hurts. That might not make him stop trying to eat you.

Just want to make a quick comment here, if we are talking about a military flamethrower (designed for combat) being "relatively short ranged", we are talking about hundreds of yards. That's not exactly knife-fighting range (unlike the propane flamethrowers you see in the movies, actual flamethrowers were kind of like supersoakers filled with jellied diesel fuel). The biggest problem would be lugging around the big backpack with the fuel and propellant tanks. Probably better off just carrying a BFG and lots of ammo.

[YogSosoth]

Originally Posted by cornflakes

On a related note, could The Texans beat The Mexicans at The Alamo with a AK-47 if the Mexicans had a Tyrannosaurus Rex?

How is that note related??!!?

[cornflakes]

Originally Posted by YogSosoth

How is that note related??!!?

It's an old thread....

[robert_columbia]

Originally Posted by cornflakes

On a related note, could The Texans beat The Mexicans at The Alamo with a AK-47 if the Mexicans had a Tyrannosaurus Rex?

I'm not sure, but I'd say they would be short work for a team of raptors on hoverboards.

[heathen earthling]

Originally Posted by cornflakes

On a related note, could The Texans beat The Mexicans at The Alamo with a AK-47 if the Mexicans had a Tyrannosaurus Rex?

Who has the Alamosaurus?

[drastic_quench]

Originally Posted by heathen earthling

Who has the Alamosaurus?

You were specifically told to Remember the Alamosaurus.

[Ranchoth]

If I may...What weapon should I use to hunt a Tyranosaur?

[Raguleader]

"Need answer fast!"

[outlierrn]

What are the current estimates, if any, on how fast a Rex can close on you? Aren't most big bores bolt action, or single shot? I'd want the BMG .50 semi-auto unless I can have a mini gun and a flying pony.

[Dissonance]

Originally Posted by MaxTheVool

ie, the entrance wound is the size of a bullet but then the exit wound is the size of a grapefruit.

Exit wounds are typically larger than entrance wounds as a result of the bullet tumbling on its axis and/or deforming while traveling through the body.

[Gray Ghost]

What do modern elephant poachers in places like, e.g. Kenya, use? AKs come to mind and the 7.62X39mm is a dog ballistically. Of course, they're dumping the entire mag or belt into the critter.... Maybe they're using G3s with 7.62X51, which is still way below what I'd use on my mythical African safari. The point is that a ton of small holes have a way of evening out with a few good holes.

If I were to hunt T. Rex, I believe in the previous thread I picked something explosive, that could break down its limbs while I waited for it to bleed out. Something like Raufoss ammo, if I'm limited to something pseudo-man portable.

The thing with reptiles is I'm not sure how fast their bodies know that their heads are destroyed. A brain/spine shot "should" take down a mammal quickly (at least all of my Capstick reading seems to think so), but I'm not so sanguine about stopping a reptile.

[carnivorousplant]

Originally Posted by Gray Ghost

Something like Raufoss ammo,

Good gad.
I want some.

[njtt]

If someone had just done this back in about 1971 we might have avoided the whole glam rock thing!

[AaronX]

Would the best way to immobilise one be to aim for the tendons?

[shiftless]

Rather than the Nitro Express, try a chinese-jingal-wall-gun

[Elendil's Heir]

I'd want either an RPG or a phaser.

[Scumpup]

Maybe we need to clarify the situation. Are we hunting for T-Rex safari-style? Are we a hardy group of time travelling explorers who have stumbled upon one at its kill and caused it to attack us? Are we attempting to bag a specimen for a museum? Depending on what we are about, the choice of weapons is going to vary dramatically. A big-ass, high powered dart gun that dumps a massive overload of some hyper-deadly neurotoxin would surely kill one, maybe even without it realizing it's been shot; but is that in the spirit of the OP?

[Chronos]

If I'm ever in a position to be killing a T. rex, I'll want something that kills a lot faster than infection. Or at least, incapacitates: Hamstringing might be good enough.

[drewtwo99]

Originally Posted by Chronos

If I'm ever in a position to be killing a T. rex, I'll want something that kills a lot faster than infection. Or at least, incapacitates: Hamstringing might be good enough.

Maybe you could feed him a bunch of ice-cream really fast, give him an ice-cream headache

[Crazyhorse]

Something that isn't often taken into account in the threads on this question is that a t-rex is so huge with a clear line of sight it would be clearly visible at least 2 miles away and probably more. It is like trying to shoot a 2 story building. There is a lot of debate about how fast a t-rex could run (or if they could run at all) but most estimates range between about 11Mph at the slowest and 30Mph at the fastest. So let's say they could travel at 20Mph. If you could line up a clear shot from 2 to 3 miles away, especially from a high vantage point that is an uphill run for him, you would have 5 or 10 minutes after the first shot before he could reach you. At that range there is even a chance he would have no idea where the attack was coming from, and you might have unlimited time/shots. I think I would prefer a very long range round and lots of ammo in the hope of disabling him before he got close enough for one of these big game rounds to even be effective.

[Crazyhorse]

Originally Posted by Irishman

You're assuming you're in a clearing, or on a hill, or something. If you have trees or other obstructions in your immediate vicinity, it doesn't matter how big the T-rex is, you won't be able to see it, nevermind shoot it.

Ergo the qualifying statement:

Originally Posted by Crazyhorse

If you could line up a clear shot from 2 to 3 miles away, especially from a high vantage point that is an uphill run for him

Since t-rex roamed the plains, and a number of the available fossils were found in this area of New Mexico I don't think finding a suitable vantage point would be the biggest challenge in this hypothetical lizard hunt.

[Nars Glinley]

Isn't it more likely that the sound of any gun (maybe not a 22) would scare off the T. Rex?

[silenus]

I'm sure they've heard thunder. I wouldn't count on scaring one away with a loud noise.

[Nars Glinley]

Originally Posted by silenus

I'm sure they've heard thunder. I wouldn't count on scaring one away with a loud noise.

I wouldn't want to count on it but a gun really doesn't sound like thunder. I've been hunting and missed my target plenty of times. They always run away after hearing the shot. They don't seem to think it's thunder.

[Peter Morris]

Originally Posted by Nars Glinley

I wouldn't want to count on it but a gun really doesn't sound like thunder. I've been hunting and missed my target plenty of times. They always run away after hearing the shot. They don't seem to think it's thunder.

Whoosh.

(see also post #35)

[Lumpy]

There's a theory that some sauropods may have been able to create sonic booms by whipping their tails. Maybe gunfire would sound like "Lunch Over Here" to a T-Rex!

[Skammer]

Killing T-Rex with a gun
That's a ridiculous question. Where would a T-Rex get a gun? And how would he use it, lacking opposable thumbs?

[TriPolar]

I'd give the T. Rex a BB gun. He'll shoot his eye out with it.