Is America the greatest country on Earth, and why?

[Sampiro]

There is a clip from Aaron Sorkin's new series The Newsroom that is going viral. Here's a link, but please know that not safe for work due to language.

Not having seen the show I don't know who the character's are, but in the set up a college aged girl asks a panel of three people what makes America the greatest country on Earth. One panelist answers "diversity and opportunity", a second answers "freedom, freedom, and freedom", and a third, played by Jeff Daniels, goes into a mini-rant that begins with "we're not". He backs his statement by saying that most First World (and many non First World) countries have as much freedom, that America trails other nations educationally and financially, that we lead the world in the percent/number of incarcerated people, etc..

I can't say I'm proud to be an American since I had very little to do with it, but I can definitely say I'm glad to be one, that I was born here instead of in Mexico or the Soviet Union (I know, but it was still alive and kicking when I was born) or any of many places that are a lot more violent and a lot less fed. That said, America is simply not what it once was even in my lifetime; the sense of entitlement is nauseating, and I'm not talking about welfare/food stamps entitlement but the "we can have it all and as much as we want and it's our right!" sense that led us to a fourteen-figure national debt, the Internet seems to have given steroids to ignorance rather than fixed it, and any politician who says "We have got to cut spending and raise taxes to fix this" is not going to get re/elected because fiscal responsibility simply does not exist in either party. And while there has always been a ridiculous degree of chauvinism in the American DNA (I can't say how it compares to most other nations because I don't know and haven't researched the matter) it is now out of control: the words treason and UnAmerican are now just openers to "debate" that is really just masturbatory namecalling, and while this has always existed the Internet and cable have taken it from the occasional argument at the dinner table or the hardware store to a 24/7 and 360 degree screaming match that is not only unavoidable but completely unproductive.
More than anything I think that our belief in our own automatic supremacy, which leads to a belief that the U.S.A. cannot fail and cannot do any wrong that it cannot fix, along with the belief that there are easy and painless answers to complex problems, really is destroying the nation, and while I doubt we'll be Pakistan any time soon I think that a new reality where nobody remotely reasonable can deny America is no longer the greatest nation is absolutely possible.

But I am neither an economist nor a political scientist and know just enought about both to make my ignorance apparent, and I have never lived overseas, so I would like to hear what others think. Is the U.S.A. the greatest nation in the world, and why or why not?

[MG-42]

If you are rich, possibly, if you are poor definitely not. No health care and no adequate welfare system for them.

[orcenio]

Originally Posted by Sampiro

There is a clip from Aaron Sorkin's new series The Newsroom that is going viral. Here's a link, but please know that not safe for work due to language.

But I am neither an economist nor a political scientist and know just enought about both to make my ignorance apparent, and I have never lived overseas, so I would like to hear what others think. Is the U.S.A. the greatest nation in the world, and why or why not?

It's pretty big.


PS I just can't watch movie/TV scenes that have ~100 cutaway shots per minute.

[Sandwich]

Why not formulate a list of criteria, put them in a priority order, and then compare the USA to, say, Belgium? Here's a starter for you:

Personal safety
Personal freedom
Health care
Quality of housing
Financial security
Workplace rights
Quality of food and drink
Access to education
Quality of entertainment
Access to technology
Cultural life
Freedom from crime

Your question is not actually that difficult to answer.

[Sampiro]

Originally Posted by Sandwich

Why not formulate a list of criteria, put them in a priority order, and then compare the USA to, say, Belgium? Here's a starter for you:

Personal safety
Personal freedom
Health care
Quality of housing
Financial security
Workplace rights
Quality of food and drink
Access to education
Quality of entertainment
Access to technology
Cultural life
Freedom from crime

Your question is not actually that difficult to answer.

Actually I can't think of a single criteria on there that somebody wouldn't fight you tooth and nail on, and probably with some justification. Quality of entertainment and Cultural life are extremely subjective in and of themselves, for instance. Health care splits into major subcategories, such as quality of healthcare and access to healthcare, which would be two very different grades, and then do you choose to count access as it's determined for the average American or access for the poorest (which in some ways is superior to access for people who aren't indigent but are self employed).

[John Mace]

What do you mean by "greatest"?

Is this like saying which is the greatest song ever written or the greatest movie ever made? Does the question have to have a definitive answer?

Suffice it say that if we're not, we're up there. Which other country is going to vie for the title?

[Sandwich]

Originally Posted by John Mace

Suffice it say that if we're not, we're up there. Which other country is going to vie for the title?

You mean apart from Belgium?

Do I have to write another list? Okay:

Finland
France
Germany
Canada
Ireland
New Zealand
Japan
Denmark
Australia
Sweden
Iceland
Netherlands
Norway
United Kingdom
Luxemburg
Switzerland

Is it time for a Monty Python joke? So, apart from the democratic accountability, healthcare, freedom, safety, crime levels, general affluence, food, religious tolerance... what other country is better than the good ole USA?

I'm still giving it to Belgium by a short head, for the beer, chips and chocolate.

[Sandwich]

Originally Posted by Sampiro

Actually I can't think of a single criteria on there that somebody wouldn't fight you tooth and nail on, and probably with some justification.

Then the answer to your question is no, America is not the greatest country on earth. If it were, there wouldn't be any doubt about it.

[septimus]

By many standards, U.S.A. is still, by far, the "greatest" country. Highest technology; globally dominant in cultural and political leadership; best universities (or nearly so); a free, vibrant and entrepreneurial economy; strongest military; the best medical care (for those who can afford it); etc. When Asia or Europe has a financial crisis it is to U.S.A. that investors look as the haven of financial security.

Americans have so much to be proud of. I was criticized in another SDMB thread for saying so, but I don't think it's an exaggeration to say "America saved the World in WWI and again in WWII." John F. Kennedy was hugely inspirational to America and the World. It was the U.S. that landed men on the Moon, and brought them safely back to Earth. Like so many Americans, I was almost jingoistic in self-admiration for most of my life.

Yet when The Rise and Fall of American Dominance is written a century from now; I think 2012 will already be in Part 2: The Fall.

During the 1980's I often chatted with foreigners and American intellectuals who criticized American arrogance and foreign policy. While I understood that American foreign policy was based on "might makes right" I felt that justice and superior values also made American Power rightful.

But during the last two decades or so, I think America and I have both changed, with America becoming less just and more arrogant, and me becoming less gullible. Bragging about "freedom," America has in many ways the least freedom among the developed democracies. American wealth and power is based, in great part, on greed and hypocrisy. Using the single issue of CO2 emissions as an example, Americans complain that we shouldn't reduce emissions unless China does, but it is China, not America, that has made environmentalism an important government objective, while America has more than three times the per capita CO2 emissions of China (and almost twice that of Germany or Japan).

To answer OP: Yes, America is still great and is certainly still "the greatest country" by many measures. But its trajectory greatly saddens me.

[Ulfreida]

There is no "greatest" country. There's no metric to measure that utterly subjective description. So it's a question that just begs other questions, like, greatest for what, compared to what, for whom?

However, I certainly would not be alive if it was not for this country. As a small child, my grandmother was sent here from Odessa to live with cousins, because her parents could only afford to send one person. They and everyone else related to them who remained were subsequently murdered in the pogroms.

On the other side of my family, my great-grandparents emigrated from German-speaking Switzerland because peasants had a miserable hopeless existence there. Here, they could aspire to own their own farms, an impossibility in their native land.

So, as the descendant of the impoverished and desperate of Europe, I am glad the US exists.

[Sampiro]

Originally Posted by Ulfreida

So, as the descendant of the impoverished and desperate of Europe, I am glad the US exists.

Your link to another nation is far more recent than most but nowhere near as recent as millions of others, but whether your distant ancestors came to St. Augustine in the 16th century or became a citizen this month every single American citizen is here because of immigration from another country.

However, this is not a debate over the U.S.A.'s historical significance but over its present international standing.

*Save for a tiny minority of 100% pure lineage natives, and even their distant ancestors came here from Asia.

[Scumpup]

I like it here. Nobody has ever given me any convincing reason why some other country would be better that does not involve introducing counterfactual hypotheticals e.g. "if you were poor and needed surgery." Getting into the US legally isn't easy. Luckily for those who aspire to live where they think the pastures are greener, getting out is.

[Tamerlane]

Originally Posted by Sampiro

and any politician who says "We have got to cut spending and raise taxes to fix this" is not going to get re/elected because fiscal responsibility simply does not exist in either party.

Oddly enough that has sorta been governor Jerry Brown's platform in his current term in California. And yes many from both parties hate him for it ( "he's not cutting enough/we don't need more taxes" vs. "he's cutting too much/we need even more taxes" ) *.






* He does appear to be getting at least some grudging respect, though.

[Not From Here]

As a brazilian i have to ask:
Why do americans worry about being the greatest?
Why do americans feel that they have to be better than the rest of the world?
I want my country to become a better one, but i don't want it to be better than others.I want to live in a world where all countries enjoy the same level of development,freedom,etc.

[computergeek]

Originally Posted by Not From Here

As a brazilian i have to ask:
Why do americans worry about being the greatest?
Why do americans feel that they have to be better than the rest of the world?
I want my country to become a better one, but i don't want it to be better than others.I want to live in a world where all countries enjoy the same level of development,freedom,etc.

I guess when you've been considered the leader of the free world for a long time, you don't want to lose that position.

As for feeling we have to be better and are better, many people saw America as a chance to start over and that its position as a democracy was unique in the world. There's also the notion that America was seen as a place given by (allowed by) God by many religious-minded folks and that we exist because of God's charity (or something like that). That makes some of the more religious types a bit obsessive about keeping our place in the world because America is considered so special.

[Not From Here]

Originally Posted by computergeek

I guess when you've been considered the leader of the free world for a long time, you don't want to lose that position.

As for feeling we have to be better and are better, many people saw America as a chance to start over and that its position as a democracy was unique in the world. There's also the notion that America was seen as a place given by (allowed by) God by many religious-minded folks and that we exist because of God's charity (or something like that). That makes some of the more religious types a bit obsessive about keeping our place in the world because America is considered so special.

I understand that but , what i don't understand is , do americans really want to live in a world where people in other countries don´t have the same quality of live that they have?the same freedoms?the same ability to decide their own future?
I feel that americans don't understand that to america be the greatest,others have to be worse in comparision .I want the whole world to be the greatest, no just my country.

[Sampiro]

Originally Posted by Not From Here

I understand that but , what i don't understand is , do americans really want to live in a world where people in other countries don´t have the same quality of live that they have?the same freedoms?the same ability to decide their own future?
I feel that americans don't understand that to america be the greatest,others have to be worse in comparision .I want the whole world to be the greatest, no just my country.

No more than an Olympic athlete who wants to win the gold medal necessarily wishes ill will or poor performance on his competition; in fact the better they are the better it makes him look if he wins the gold medal.

[Not From Here]

Originally Posted by Sampiro

No more than an Olympic athlete who wants to win the gold medal necessarily wishes ill will or poor performance on his competition; in fact the better they are the better it makes him look if he wins the gold medal.

But why do it have to be a competition?

[cckerberos]

Originally Posted by Not From Here

I feel that americans don't understand that to america be the greatest,others have to be worse in comparision .I want the whole world to be the greatest, no just my country.

You're right that that's the logical conclusion to the thought process, but I don't think anyone really thinks it out that far.

American exceptionalism has been a big part of the American identity for a long time, and that hasn't changed even as other countries have taken on attributes that were supposed to be "exceptional" to the US. It's an article of faith.

Another supposedly unique aspect of American nationalism has been that it is "forward facing", expecting things to just get better and better (as opposed to other countries like China whose nationalism is oriented around a past Golden Age). I think that this suggests that once America clearly enters a decline there's going to be a lot of recrimination. It won't be viewed as a natural event; someone will be expected to take the blame.

As to the OP's question, sure, I think the US is the greatest country on Earth. But then, I'm an American and that shapes my criteria. I lived abroad for 8 years and know that others would have different criteria. A lot of the things the Japanese prize in their society/country are things that I feel are terrible. Similarly, there are plenty of things that few of us would willingly give up about the US that the Japanese would not want.

[Der Trihs]

Originally Posted by computergeek

I guess when you've been considered the leader of the free world for a long time, you don't want to lose that position.

Has America been considered the "leader of the free world" anywhere but in its collective fantasies?

[John Mace]

Originally Posted by Der Trihs

Has America been considered the "leader of the free world" anywhere but in its collective fantasies?

Yes.

[alice_in_wonderland]

Originally Posted by Der Trihs

Has America been considered the "leader of the free world" anywhere but in its collective fantasies?

I think no.

Regardless, the OP is a bit silly - I'm from Canada and don't want to live anywhere else so in my opinion Canada is the greatest.

I have former countrymates that couldn't wait to move south of the boarder - to them the US is obviously #1.

So, I guess the answer is 'It depends.' By many statistical measures the US barely makes the top 10 but I'm sure many people like it there and I'm not about to tell them they're wrong.

[Tapiotar]

Originally Posted by alice_in_wonderland

I think no.

Regardless, the OP is a bit silly - I'm from Canada and don't want to live anywhere else so in my opinion Canada is the greatest.

I have former countrymates that couldn't wait to move south of the boarder - to them the US is obviously #1.

So, I guess the answer is 'It depends.' By many statistical measures the US barely makes the top 10 but I'm sure many people like it there and I'm not about to tell them they're wrong.

There should be a simple exchange program so that US and Canadian citizens who want to switch could simply swap places. Then again, if it were too easy, there'd be a lot of back-and-forth, as people who moved discovered the imperfections as well as the virtues of their new land, and wanted to go back again.

Statisitical measures are things that look good on paper, but don't always translate to happiness. Finland is at the top or near the top of almost all current lists of great places to live, due to health care, education, and other measures. But every time I've lived there, I've been miserably unhappy and gone into severe depressions. In spite of fitting in fairly well by looking Finnish, speaking Finnish, having a Finnish name, and Finnish relatives. But it's a place of misery for me, if I'm there longer than a month, and I am so glad my grandparents moved to the US. But I'd probably be equally happy if they'd moved to Canada or to Australia.

If the greatest country is based on the happiness of a large number of citizens, here's one list:
happiness ranking
Eric Weiner explores happiness in 10 countries in The Geography of Bliss, which is worth reading.

I think that trying to claim that this country or that is the greatest is futile, though some are more desireable places than others. It may be more useful to think of one's country is a wonderful place, in spite of its flaws, and do what one can to make it better. If someone loathes one's homeland; try to make some changes. Or leave, if you can.

[Not From Here]

Originally Posted by Der Trihs

Has America been considered the "leader of the free world" anywhere but in its collective fantasies?

They have never been considered that here in latin america.Maybe it has something to do with all dictatorships that the U.S government has supported here in this region, including the one in my country.I laugh everytime an american says that.How can you be the leader of the free world and be the biggest ally of Saudi Arabia?

[cckerberos]

Originally Posted by Der Trihs

Has America been considered the "leader of the free world" anywhere but in its collective fantasies?

Sure. Though not, I think, now.

[clairobscur]

Originally Posted by Der Trihs

Has America been considered the "leader of the free world" anywhere but in its collective fantasies?

I would say yes, following WWII. America and all things Americans had tremendous popularity. I remember even old communists, when I was younger, who still had this fascination for the USA that most people of their generation shared.

This came to an end, I think, in the mid-60s, with the contestation of established values, the Vietnam war, etc...The generation that came to adulthood at that time didn't have anymore this rosy view of the USA.

[Wesley Clark]

Originally Posted by Not From Here

As a brazilian i have to ask:
Why do americans worry about being the greatest?
Why do americans feel that they have to be better than the rest of the world?
I want my country to become a better one, but i don't want it to be better than others.I want to live in a world where all countries enjoy the same level of development,freedom,etc.

No idea. I don't know the history of the attitude, I would assume it started after WW1 or maybe WW2 when we emerged as a superpower. But I have no idea why that is so popular. But nations like Germany, Japan, China, etc. also have attitudes like that.

FWIW, it isn't something a lot of informed Americans subscribe to or care about. We do good things and bad things. Our tertiary education is probably the worlds best (although in part that could be due to how much larger our population is vs other OECD nations). And we lag behind in other areas. I think it is just a feel good platitude spouted by PC politicians for the most part.

[BrainGlutton]

Originally Posted by Not From Here

As a brazilian i have to ask:
Why do americans worry about being the greatest?
Why do americans feel that they have to be better than the rest of the world?

Originally Posted by Wesley Clark

No idea. I don't know the history of the attitude, I would assume it started after WW1 or maybe WW2 when we emerged as a superpower.

No, much older than that. It's called American exceptionalism and it's almost as old as the country.

[don't ask]

For those not wishing (or unable) to view the link, Piers Morgan in The Daily Mail had this to say, in part quoting Sorkin:

The trigger for this comes during a tedious college panel debate, when the moderator goads him into answering the question ‘What makes America the greatest country in the world?’

McEvoy pauses for a few seconds, then goes on an almighty (factually accurate, statistically) rant about why America is NOT the world’s greatest country, a concept that would be horrifyingly alien to 99.99 per cent of Americans I know:

‘We’re seventh in literacy, 27th in maths, 22nd in science, 49th in life expectancy, 178th in infant mortality, third in median household income, fourth in labour force and fourth in exports. We lead the world in only three categories – number of incarcerated citizens per capita, number of adults who believe angels are real, and defence spending, where we spend more than the next 26 countries combined… So when you ask what makes us the greatest country in the world, I don’t know what the f*** you’re talking about.’

[XT]

Originally Posted by Not From Here

As a brazilian i have to ask:
Why do americans worry about being the greatest?

As far as I know, the vast majority of Americans don't worry about it...nor, do they ever consider that we aren't. What you have in threads like this is some Americans expending energy for their own reasons to 'prove' that the US ISN'T the greatest, plus some folks from other countries who want to prove that, no, the US isn't so great and really their country is. The trouble comes in defining what 'the greatest country on Earth' actually means, since it's going to vary wildly from person to person. I find these threads hilarious, generally.

Why do americans feel that they have to be better than the rest of the world?

I've been to Brazil many times. There are plenty of Brazilians who feel that Brazil is 'the greatest country on Earth', verdad'? Why? Well, because they live there and they like it there. I like it there too, but it doesn't meet MY definition of 'the greatest country on Earth'. MMV, however.

-XT

[Sampiro]

Originally Posted by XT

What you have in threads like this is some Americans expending energy for their own reasons to 'prove' that the US ISN'T the greatest, plus some folks from other countries who want to prove that, no, the US isn't so great and really their country is. The trouble comes in defining what 'the greatest country on Earth' actually means, since it's going to vary wildly from person to person. I find these threads hilarious, generally.

So in other words you have absolutely nothing to add except a personal insult to me, a deliberate misrepresentation of the OP, a so-far completely erroneous prediction and stereotyping of who will participate, and a needily blatant self affirmation of your own keen insight with a sneering condescension chaser. Thank you for stopping by, this added much.

[XT]

Originally Posted by Sampiro

So in other words you have absolutely nothing to add except a personal insult to me, a deliberate misrepresentation of the OP, a so-far completely erroneous prediction and stereotyping of who will participate, and a needily blatant self affirmation of your own keen insight with a sneering condescension chaser. Thank you for stopping by, this added much.

Getting your panties in a twist because this OP has been asked and answered in various different ways in dozens of threads? Sorry for being brutally honest, but the reality is most Americans DON'T think about whether they are 'the greatest country on Earth'. They KNOW they are. Just like most French don't really think about it either because they know it...and most Brits...and certainly most German I know and Japanese. It's a stupid question because everyone is going to have different definitions of what 'greatest' actually means. But, far be it from me to snark and run...let me answer the OP, since I'm sure you are dying to know what my thoughts are on this (and it's not like I've answered this exact same question dozens of times before in dozens of other threads just like this one, or anything).

Not having seen the show I don't know who the character's are, but in the set up a college aged girl asks a panel of three people what makes America the greatest country on Earth. One panelist answers "diversity and opportunity", a second answers "freedom, freedom, and freedom", and a third, played by Jeff Daniels, goes into a mini-rant that begins with "we're not". He backs his statement by saying that most First World (and many non First World) countries have as much freedom, that America trails other nations educationally and financially, that we lead the world in the percent/number of incarcerated people, etc..

So, here you see why it's a silly question. My take? We are the greatest country on earth because, by far, we have the greatest impact, socially, culturally, militarily, economically, politically and maybe a few more words that end in 'y'. This isn't even in dispute. Is MY definition of 'greatest' the only one? Hardly. Folks are going to parse that phrase based on their own political worldview. As Der Trihs if he thinks the US is 'the greatest country on Earth' and he's going to spew out that we're the greatest EVIL on earth, etc etc.

I can't say I'm proud to be an American since I had very little to do with it, but I can definitely say I'm glad to be one, that I was born here instead of in Mexico or the Soviet Union (I know, but it was still alive and kicking when I was born) or any of many places that are a lot more violent and a lot less fed. That said, America is simply not what it once was even in my lifetime; the sense of entitlement is nauseating, and I'm not talking about welfare/food stamps entitlement but the "we can have it all and as much as we want and it's our right!" sense that led us to a fourteen-figure national debt, the Internet seems to have given steroids to ignorance rather than fixed it, and any politician who says "We have got to cut spending and raise taxes to fix this" is not going to get re/elected because fiscal responsibility simply does not exist in either party. And while there has always been a ridiculous degree of chauvinism in the American DNA (I can't say how it compares to most other nations because I don't know and haven't researched the matter) it is now out of control: the words treason and UnAmerican are now just openers to "debate" that is really just masturbatory namecalling, and while this has always existed the Internet and cable have taken it from the occasional argument at the dinner table or the hardware store to a 24/7 and 360 degree screaming match that is not only unavoidable but completely unproductive.

So, what you seem to dislike is that Americans feel they are the greatest and take exception when someone says they aren't, and then the name calling starts. Right after you got all hurt that I made a joke about your OP. Do you see any connection here? As an exercise, go on a foreign message board that has the majority of it's members from another country and start a thread about how that country sucks because of X, Y and Z reasons and see what sort of response you get. My guess is you are going to be called some names, so try not to get hurt if someone does that, or makes fun of you.

But I am neither an economist nor a political scientist and know just enought about both to make my ignorance apparent, and I have never lived overseas, so I would like to hear what others think. Is the U.S.A. the greatest nation in the world, and why or why not?

By my definition of 'greatest' its hard for me to even see a debate here. Clearly we are and have been for several decades now (since at least before the fall of the Soviet Union) the greatest nation on earth. We have the most influence and most impact of any nation on the planet. That doesn't mean that in every category and aspect it's superior to every other place on earth. Nor does it mean that folks living in other countries (or, obviously, even in THIS country) agree with that assertion or that this is the true or right measure of 'greatest'. I can say that just about every place I've traveled to has plenty of folks who think THEIR country is the 'greatest', and will bend your ear off telling you why, in loving detail. I remember going to Cuba once and having plenty of people tell me why it was the greatest country on Earth and far superior to the US in every way possible. Different strokes and all that.

-XT

[XT]

Originally Posted by computergeek

There are a lot of right wingers (in the US) who keep insisting that the US is the greatest or insist that the US has lost its greatness because of kowtowing by the left or whatever.

Yes, but then there are folks who think the earth if flat or that the Twin Towers were brought down by a cabal of mutant space rats, the US government and Elvis (or whatever the current Truther theory is). They are, what we generally call 'wrong', though the more technical term might be 'deluded' or 'batshit insane'.

-XT

[Sampiro]

Originally Posted by XT

Getting your panties in a twist because this OP has been asked and answered in various different ways in dozens of threads?

Actually, I misread your post (literally- I misread a couple of words) that made it seem extremely insulting. Re-reading it, correctly, it's not personally insulting. My error, and I apologize. (And if you'd read it the way I did, you'd have been angry too.)

That said, save some emoticons for the Third World, for God's sake.

[XT]

Originally Posted by Sampiro

Actually, I misread your post (literally- I misread a couple of words) that made it seem extremely insulting. My error, and I apologize. (And if you'd read it the way I did, you'd have been angry too.)

No worries...it wasn't actually supposed to be insulting, but I tend to snark more when I'm posting on the run on my iPad.

That said, save some emoticons for the Third World, for God's sake.

Sorry...I'm in a 12 step program, but I keep falling off the wagon...

-XT

[John Mace]

Originally Posted by Sampiro

So in other words you have absolutely nothing to add except a personal insult to me, a deliberate misrepresentation of the OP, a so-far completely erroneous prediction and stereotyping of who will participate, and a needily blatant self affirmation of your own keen insight with a sneering condescension chaser. Thank you for stopping by, this added much.

I think you're overreacting here. Sampiro, you're one of my favorite posters here, but I gotta say that OP was, well, not one your best efforts. It would help if you narrowed things down a bit and at least put some sort of boundaries on what you are getting at.

"Great" often means "big". You have "Great Kings" you have "Great Powers" and you have "Great Britain" . The US is "Great" in an important sense simply because of its [economic] size. The US projects itself around the world like no other power.

If you mean "best", then that's a different story and is going to be extremely subjective. Maybe we just need to take a global poll to find out.

[computergeek]

Originally Posted by XT

As far as I know, the vast majority of Americans don't worry about it...nor, do they ever consider that we aren't. What you have in threads like this is some Americans expending energy for their own reasons to 'prove' that the US ISN'T the greatest, plus some folks from other countries who want to prove that, no, the US isn't so great and really their country is. The trouble comes in defining what 'the greatest country on Earth' actually means, since it's going to vary wildly from person to person. I find these threads hilarious, generally.

There are a lot of right wingers (in the US) who keep insisting that the US is the greatest or insist that the US has lost its greatness because of kowtowing by the left or whatever.

[Really Not All That Bright]

No, it's not the greatest country on earth. The idea that such a thing exists is preposterous. It is, however, a rather good one. I've lived in a dozen countries, and this is where I chose to make my home.

[Oakminster]

Yeah, we are. Whiny ass liberals will say otherwise, but they're wrong. We're the most powerful nation on earth, with the finest military the world has ever known. We have freedom, bought and paid for with the blood of patriots for centuries now. We stopped Hitler, and Japan. Yes, we had help, but without us, the world today would be a very different place. We kept the Russian Bear at bay until it starved itself to death. We have a legal system with significant protections for individual rights. We have so many things that people take for granted, because they've never known anything else. We're still the land of opportunity, where everyone has a chance to achieve their dreams. Outcomes are not guaranteed, but you can try...and if you're good enough, lucky enough, and work hard enough, you can succeed.

[Der Trihs]

Originally Posted by Oakminster

We have freedom, bought and paid for with the blood of patriots for centuries now.

And other places have as much or more freedom.

Originally Posted by Oakminster

We kept the Russian Bear at bay until it starved itself to death.

And in the process spread tyranny and death across the world; I see no evidence that our stopping them was in any way an improvement, except in Europe where they were strong (and white) enough that we didn't impose our own dictatorships over the populace. Being tortured and killed by an American sponsored tyranny is no better than being tortured and killed by a Soviet sponsored one.

Originally Posted by Oakminster

We're still the land of opportunity, where everyone has a chance to achieve their dreams. Outcomes are not guaranteed, but you can try...and if you're good enough, lucky enough, and work hard enough, you can succeed.

Nonsense. America is one of the least socially mobile of the industrialized nations.

[Oakminster]

Originally Posted by Der Trihs

And in the process spread tyranny and death across the world; I see no evidence that our stopping them was in any way an improvement, except in Europe where they were strong (and white) enough that we didn't impose our own dictatorships over the populace. Being tortured and killed by an American sponsored tyranny is no better than being tortured and killed by a Soviet sponsored one.

Never forget that the reason people like you aren't put against the nearest wall is because guys like me have served this nation and kept us free. You don't believe it, you don't appreciate it, and you've done nothing to earn it, but you're welcome, anyway. I'd do it again, as would most veterans.

[Der Trihs]

Originally Posted by Oakminster

Never forget that the reason people like you aren't put against the nearest wall is because guys like me have served this nation and kept us free. You don't believe it, you don't appreciate it, and you've done nothing to earn it, but you're welcome, anyway. I'd do it again, as would most veterans.

Yeah, suuure that's why. Our wonderful military spends its time fighting for corporate profits, to impose tyranny across the world, and to slaughter brown people with the wrong religions. And if the government so ordered I'm quite sure you and your fellow veterans would have cheerfully lined me up against a wall and killed me.

[tomndebb]

Originally Posted by Oakminster

Never forget that the reason people like you aren't put against the nearest wall is because guys like me have served this nation and kept us free. You don't believe it, you don't appreciate it, and you've done nothing to earn it, but you're welcome, anyway.

Originally Posted by Der Trihs

And if the government so ordered I'm quite sure you and your fellow veterans would have cheerfully lined me up against a wall and killed me.

In the midst of a not very great debate, this is the silliest exchange I have seen here.

This thread has no need of chest thumping or self-flagellation and it certainly does not need dumb personal shots.

Knock it off.

[ /Moderating ]

[Really Not All That Bright]

Originally Posted by Oakminster

Never forget that the reason people like you aren't put against the nearest wall is because guys like me have served this nation and kept us free.

I respect your service, but it doesn't give you the right to throw it in peoples' faces, especially since hardly anyone currently alive has fought against an actual threat to our freedom.

[XT]

Originally Posted by Really Not All That Bright

I respect your service, but it doesn't give you the right to throw it in peoples' faces, especially since hardly anyone currently alive has fought against an actual threat to our freedom.

I agree with part of this and disagree with part of it. It's not cool to throw your service in other peoples faces as sort of a fiat attempt at gaining the high moral ground...and, it's especially annoying in these sorts of threads as it both fulfills the stereotype expectations of some and is obviously a lure to try and get others to have their heads explode (not going to name any names). However, simply because the average US serviceman hasn't fought in some desperate battle against and existential threat to freedom and the American way is pretty meaningless too. Their service and the might of the US military is pretty much what protects that freedom.

Personally, I joined the service to see the world, get paid, learn a trade, get laid (this part didn't work out perfectly, sad to say), and, oh yeah, protect the country and give back a little for the opportunities this country has given my family. Plus, my dad thought I should, and I didn't have anything better to do for a couple of years, so what the hell??

-XT

[denquixote]

Originally Posted by Oakminster

Never forget that the reason people like you aren't put against the nearest wall is because guys like me have served this nation and kept us free. You don't believe it, you don't appreciate it, and you've done nothing to earn it, but you're welcome, anyway. I'd do it again, as would most veterans.

I was in the Army during the Viet Nam war 1967-1971 but never served in Viet Nam or saw any combat. Do you think the contribution of every veteran is/was helpful in keeping the nation free? I know I would have been extremely unlikely to have served if I had not been subject to the draft and my guesstimate of the general feeling of those I served with was at least 90% in agreement with me. I served without any appreciation of the need to maintain our freedom except in so far as mine would have been threatened had I not served. I would do it again because at that age I needed a certain amount of discipline and education and I would recommend service to others as long as they understand what they could be in for. However I don't believe anyone owes me any thanks or appreciation. (Though I am not too keen on any recrimination either.)

If it is not too personal I would be curious to know where you served and how your service has helped to maintain freedom in America. Please don't think I doubt your sincerity or sacrifice, I just don't see the freedom connection.

[Oakminster]

Originally Posted by denquixote

If it is not too personal I would be curious to know where you served and how your service has helped to maintain freedom in America. Please don't think I doubt your sincerity or sacrifice, I just don't see the freedom connection.

I don't think I can respond to that given the Mod instruction in post 50.

[Fiddle Peghead]

I love America and am damn glad I was born and raised here, and live here. But I like what Bill Maher said on a comedy tour a few years back: The people who are always saying that America is the greatest country in the world are the same people who've never been anywhere.

[XT]

Originally Posted by Fiddle Peghead

I love America and am damn glad I was born and raised here, and live here. But I like what Bill Maher said on a comedy tour a few years back: The people who are always saying that America is the greatest country in the world are the same people who've never been anywhere.

And people who talk in ridiculous generalities are either idiots or comedians.

-XT

[Der Trihs]

Originally Posted by XT

And people who talk in ridiculous generalities are either idiots or comedians.

Of course, since that statement is a "ridiculous generalization", you've just accused yourself of being either an idiot or a comedian.