I give. "Turtles all the way down". Dilbert just used it. Where's it from?

[Jonathan Chance]

Right, I've heard this bit about turtles here in the past and just sort of went with it. God knows we pop up memes every now and again.

But now Dilbert has used it.

Far be it from me to suggest that he didn't get it from here somehow but...I doubt he got it from here.

So someone plug a non-savvy guy in? Where'd this thing start and what's the context?

Note: the above URL will go bad when today's comic expires. It's the one for February 7, 2011.

[Suburban Plankton]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtles_all_the_way_down

[friedo]

It's from Hawking's A Brief History of Time. The relevant excerpt:

Originally Posted by Stephen Hawking

A well-known scientist (some say it was Bertrand Russell) once gave a public lecture on astronomy. He described how the earth orbits around the sun and how the sun, in turn, orbits around the center of a vast collection of stars called our galaxy. At the end of the lecture, a little old lady at the back of the room got up and said: "What you have told us is rubbish. The world is really a flat plate supported on the back of a giant tortoise." The scientist gave a superior smile before replying, "What is the tortoise standing on?" "You're very clever, young man, very clever", said the old lady. "But it's turtles all the way down!"

[Tom Scud]

Stephen Hawking.

Originally Posted by wikipedia

The most widely known version appears in Stephen Hawking's 1988 book A Brief History of Time, which starts:

A well-known scientist (some say it was Bertrand Russell) once gave a public lecture on astronomy. He described how the earth orbits around the sun and how the sun, in turn, orbits around the center of a vast collection of stars called our galaxy. At the end of the lecture, a little old lady at the back of the room got up and said: "What you have told us is rubbish. The world is really a flat plate supported on the back of a giant tortoise." The scientist gave a superior smile before replying, "What is the tortoise standing on?" "You're very clever, young man, very clever", said the old lady. "But it's turtles all the way down!"[1]
The origins of the turtle story are uncertain.

ETA: Huh. It's Stephen Hawking quotes all the way down.

[Chronos]

A famous physicist is giving a public talk on some astronomical topic, and at the end during the Q&A session, an old lady in the audience tells him that he's all wrong, that the world actually sits on the back of a giant turtle. The famous thinker asks her what the turtle sits on, and she says "You're a clever boy. But it's turtles all the way down".

I first read it in the introduction to A Brief History of Time, but I think it predates that book.

[Suburban Plankton]

There's something to be said for brevity.

[Tom Scud]

Originally Posted by Suburban Plankton

There's something to be said for brevity.

Brevity is ... wit.

[Baal Houtham]

Personally, I knew it as a joke before I encountered SDMB:

One variation:
A westerner visits a oriental sage and asks about the cosmos. The sage explains that the world is supported on the back of a giant turtle.

The western inquires, "But what is the turtle standing on?"

The sage answers: It stands upon the back of another turtle.

"Ahh, but what is that turtle standing on?"

The sage narrows his eyes. "You ask a profound question, but sorry, it's turtles all the way down."

[billfish678]

Originally Posted by Baal Houtham

The sage narrows his eyes. "You ask a profound question, but sorry, it's turtles all the way down."

That's also something the physics community was "worried" about for awhile.

You had atoms. Then the atoms were found to be made of electrons, protons, and neutrons. Then these were found to made of quarks. Also, over a hundred? other particles besides electrons, protons, and neutrons were found.

For awhile there, it kinda looked like maybe it was "turtles all the way down" and that all basic components would be found to be made of "lower" other basic components. And on and on and downward and downward...

Note, I am not a particle physics guru, but thats my 2 cent impression of the times...

[JThunder]

Originally Posted by Chronos

I first read it in the introduction to A Brief History of Time, but I think it predates that book.

I came across that story way back in the late 70s, so yes, it does predate the book.

[Sam A. Robrin]

I heard it from Robert Anton Wilson in the late 1970s or thereabouts, as a story that had happened to him. Or so memory now has it....

[Fear Itself]

Originally Posted by JThunder

I came across that story way back in the late 70s, so yes, it does predate the book.

Indeed, here is a cite from 1905.

[Freudian Slit]

And don't forget about Yertle.

[The Devil's Grandmother]

But Yertle was the turtle at the top of the stack. we're interested in the turtle at the bottom.

[Simplicio]

Originally Posted by Fear Itself

Indeed, here is a cite from 1905.

Good find, thats almost the exact same story (albeit with a preacher rather then a scientist). And it predates not only Hawkings, but was pretty early in Bertrand Russell's career, making it unlikely that he was the source either. And I think its earlier then any source cited in the wikipedia link.

[Freudian Slit]

Originally Posted by The Devil's Grandmother

But Yertle was the turtle at the top of the stack. we're interested in the turtle at the bottom.

Oh, you mean Mack?

[Simplicio]

Actually, the sources are all fairly clustered. The author of Fear Itself's quote was Oliver Sabine, a Chrisitan Scientist bishop living in Boston. Wikipedia has a few sources claiming they heard it attributed to Harvard Psychologist William James who lived near Boston around the same period and wrote about the Christian Scientists and was friends with the third person commonly associated with the story, Bertrand Russel.

So I'm guessing Sabine or James originated the story around the turn of the century and then James passed the story on to Russel, who then either passed it on as his own.

[XT]

I think I first encountered the 'Turtles all the way down' when I was a kid. It was in a novel I was reading (and this would have been in the late 60's or early 70's', so it definitely pre-dates either the 'Dope or Hawking. I wish I could remember the book (I think it was a Sci-Fi book, but just can't remember).

-XT

[Baal Houtham]

Originally Posted by Simplicio

Actually, the sources are all fairly clustered. The author of Fear Itself's quote was Oliver Sabine, a Chrisitan Scientist bishop living in Boston. Wikipedia has a few sources claiming they heard it attributed to Harvard Psychologist William James who lived near Boston around the same period and wrote about the Christian Scientists and was friends with the third person commonly associated with the story, Bertrand Russel.

So I'm guessing Sabine or James originated the story around the turn of the century and then James passed the story on to Russel, who then either passed it on as his own.

Another Clue:
Sabin's speech (Nov. 22, 1905) attributes the story to a "Richmond negro preacher." This Atlantic Monthly article from 1946, "Henry James as a Landlord", reprints his correspondence with a female tenant, and a letter dated 2/2 1905 is posted from:
Jefferson Hotel
Richmond Virginia.

The letter mentions spending time at the Lenox (Boston Hotel). The following post is from Rye, Sussex (Nov. 2, 1905).

It seems possible that James heard the story in Richmond (about 600 miles from Boston) and related it around Boston. Or he could have composed it and someone -- James, Sabin, or a third party -- decided the story was more interesting if attributed to a negro preacher.

[Anaamika]

Of course it originates from here. Not the quote, but the idea:

In Hindu mythology the world is thought to rest on the backs of four elephants, who stand on the shell of a turtle.[32] In Hinduism, Akupara is a tortoise who carries the world on his back. It upholds the Earth and the sea.[2] One avatar of Vishnu is said to be the giant turtle Kurma. The Sri Kurmam Temple in Andhra Pradesh, India is dedicated to the Kurma-avatar.

In India, the tortoise, Kurmavatara, is an incarnation of Vishnu; it is also Kasyapa, the northern star, the first living being, forefather of Vishnu — the protector. The lower part of the shell symbolizes the earthly world and the upper part — the heavenly world. The Shatapatha Brahmana identifies the world as the body of Kurmaraja, the "king of tortoises", with the earth its lower shell, the atmosphere its body, and the vault of the heavens its upper shell. The tortoise holds the elephant, on the back of which rests the earth, and the elephant is the masculine symbol and the tortoise the feminine.[7]

From here.

[CalMeacham]

You mean it's not about a chocoholic/nut lover's vision of Heaven?

[Misnomer]

Originally Posted by Simplicio

And I think its earlier then any source cited in the wikipedia link.

Not quite: "Note also that Lewis Carroll, the author of Alice in Wonderland, used the story of the tortoise for a philosophical regressus-argument in one of the first volumes of the philosophical Journal Mind (1895)."

[cjepson]

Originally Posted by Simplicio

Actually, the sources are all fairly clustered.

So are the turtles.

[Simplicio]

Originally Posted by Misnomer

Not quite: "Note also that Lewis Carroll, the author of Alice in Wonderland, used the story of the tortoise for a philosophical regressus-argument in one of the first volumes of the philosophical Journal Mind (1895)."

The Lewis Carrol article has a tortise and some talk of infinity, but it isn't remotely the same story.

[Biffy the Elephant Shrew]

Originally Posted by cjepson

So are the turtles.

Mmmm, turtle clusters!

[CalMeacham]

Look up 4 entries

[The Controvert]

Hello to recursion! Hello, hello!

Just to pile on the recursive bandwagon, it's SDMB [reference to previous] Turtle Threads all the way down!

I give. "Turtles all the way down". Dilbert just used it. Where's it from? Reply to Thread (2011)

Basic programming question (2011)

How do they get large equipment out of the hole? (2010)

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=12621195 (2010)

Molten metal turtles all the way down? (2008)

"It's turtles all the way down." (2000)

Flat Earth Society? (2000)

...

Ob_Smilies_All_The_Way_Down

[Bayard]

I found a book transcribing an 1854 debate on whether the Bible is divinely inspired. The clergyman arguing in favor of divine inspiration uses the "turtles all the way down" line to mock his opponent, to "Vehement and vociferous applause."

An October 1863 edition of The Methodist Review relates it as "rocks all the way down," which it calls the "schoolboy's proverbial solution" to the question of ultimate causes.

"Rocks all the way down" appears to be the earlier form. The whole "what does the world stand on ... rocks all the way down" version turns up in the September 15, 1838 version of a periodical called The New York Mirror.

(I hope those links work. They are to Gogle Books pages, with the relevant phrase highlighted).

[Folacin]

Originally Posted by billfish678

That's also something the physics community was "worried" about for awhile.

You had atoms. Then the atoms were found to be made of electrons, protons, and neutrons. Then these were found to made of quarks. Also, over a hundred? other particles besides electrons, protons, and neutrons were found.

For awhile there, it kinda looked like maybe it was "turtles all the way down" and that all basic components would be found to be made of "lower" other basic components. And on and on and downward and downward...

Note, I am not a particle physics guru, but thats my 2 cent impression of the times...

Apropos of very little - this was the background for Doc Smith's Skylark series - our hero would discover a new level of physics and use it to save the world/galaxy/universe. Then he'd need a new level for the next book, since the tech from the previous book was now in wide use.

Joe

[Simplicio]

Originally Posted by Bayard

I found a book transcribing an 1854 debate on whether the Bible is divinely inspired. The clergyman arguing in favor of divine inspiration uses the "turtles all the way down" line to mock his opponent, to "Vehement and vociferous applause."

Well, William James was born in 1840's, so I guess thats the end of that theory.

Good finds though (and the links work, for me anyways).

[RitterSport]

Originally Posted by Tom Scud

Brevity is ... wit.

This is one of my favorite Simpsons references. Just so, well, witty and brief.

Originally Posted by Bayard

I found a book transcribing an 1854 debate on whether the Bible is divinely inspired. ...

So, what you're saying is that it's turtle quotes all the way down?

[Baal Houtham]

Originally Posted by Bayard

I found a book transcribing an 1854 debate on whether the Bible is divinely inspired. The clergyman arguing in favor of divine inspiration uses the "turtles all the way down" line to mock his opponent, to "Vehement and vociferous applause."

An October 1863 edition of The Methodist Review relates it as "rocks all the way down," which it calls the "schoolboy's proverbial solution" to the question of ultimate causes.

"Rocks all the way down" appears to be the earlier form. The whole "what does the world stand on ... rocks all the way down" version turns up in the September 15, 1838 version of a periodical called The New York Mirror.

Fine work.
(And BTW, my earlier links about Richmond deal with William James brother Henry, but they corresponded extensively.)

[Chronos]

Quoth The Controvert:

Hello to recursion! Hello, hello!

Hello to recursion! Hello, hello!

[JoelUpchurch]

I thought it was Asimov, but a search in Google books shows a reference to Oliver Corwin Sabin from 1905.

http://books.google.com/books?id=mTY...own%22&f=false

[Raguleader]

Originally Posted by The Devil's Grandmother

But Yertle was the turtle at the top of the stack. we're interested in the turtle at the bottom.

Incidentally, that turtle is standing on another turtle's back.

EDIT: A thought came to me: What if the turtle on the bottom in fact... turns out to be on a treadmill?

[NoClueBoy]

Originally Posted by Raguleader

Incidentally, that turtle is standing on another turtle's back.

EDIT: A thought came to me: What if the turtle on the bottom in fact... turns out to be on a treadmill?

That's the beauty of it! The turtle doesn't DO anything!

[jackdavinci]

Originally Posted by NoClueBoy

That's the beauty of it! The turtle doesn't DO anything!

I think it swam down into a trench once, for twenty minutes.

[Sam A. Robrin]

Originally Posted by jackdavinci

I think it swam down into a trench once, for twenty minutes.

There were turtles in it....

[VanillaGorilla]

Originally Posted by Sam A. Robrin

There were turtles in it....

You know what else was there? 14 k of g.

[BMalion]

Originally Posted by Sam A. Robrin

There were turtles in it....

With a 1920's style death-ray.

[Ludovic]

Fucking death rays, how do they work?

[leftfield6]

Turtles all the way down, with lasers on their frickin heads!!!

[NoClueBoy]

Originally Posted by leftfield6

Turtles all the way down, with lasers on their frickin heads!!!

[facebook] Like [/facebook]

[Bayard]

Huh. So, the basic idea of Earth->Elephant->Tortoise->? shows up in "An Essay Concerning Human Understanding" by John Locke in 1690. Locke ends his version with the Indian cosmologist being forced to admit that he doesn't know what the tortoise stands on.

In his 1769 pamphlet "Observations on the State of the Nation", Edmund Burke describes someone's financial plan as "like the Indian philosophy; his earth is poised on the horns of a bull, his bull stands on an elephant, his elephant is supported by a tortoise; and so on for ever."

So, the idea of using the myth to illustrate infinte regress has been around in English for a long time. But, the joke ending in "...all the way down!" seems to first appear in Google's record about 1838 (at least as of now).

[Chimera]

Originally Posted by BMalion

With a 1920's style death-ray.

The Internet: It's memes all the way down.

[Ludovic]

My God, it's full of memes!

[Raguleader]

Originally Posted by Ludovic

My God, it's full of memes!

As long as they don't clog the tubes.

[NoClueBoy]

At the very end of the infinite stack of turtles (yeah, I know. So sue me.), is a snowboard being towed behind a Ford F-150 in rural Oklahoma.

Full circle, man! Everything is relative, man! Ford trucks RULE!

[Raguleader]

Originally Posted by NoClueBoy

At the very end of the infinite stack of turtles (yeah, I know. So sue me.), is a snowboard being towed behind a Ford F-150 in rural Oklahoma.

Full circle, man! Everything is relative, man! Ford trucks RULE!

This could actually work, if the turtles formed a loop in space.

[Johnny Q]

Originally Posted by leftfield6

Turtles all the way down, with lasers on their frickin heads!!!

When Turtle come back, will he bring pie?