[Mafia game] The Realm of Phere

[BobArrgh]

Hmmm ... interesting that more than one person protected Visorslash. One explanation could be that his Scum Buddies protected him. Another explanation is that his Mason Buddies protected him.

In any case, Inner Stickler seems to be tied to Visorslash in some way. Of course, this could be a direct buddy-buddy connection, or it could be an indirect connection (as in, Inner Stickler having an action where he protects the second-place vote getter, regardless of who it is.)

[Scathach]

Originally Posted by GuiriEnEspaña

I didn't intend to suggest it was a stupid idea, I was just thinkng through what would need to happen for it to effectively become a second lynch and how feasible that would be.

Oh I wasn't offended, just admitting that it's very tricky to actually implement

Originally Posted by GuiriEnEspaña

A privately arranged group attack might have a little more success however, in order to get sufficient numbers to cause death, the risk of infiltration is high.

And a reason for allowing PM's etc between players just became clear


I'm still kind of curious as to how much HP the Demon Lord has, and if he can be killed though.

[Astral Rejection]

Originally Posted by GuiriEnEspaña

Astral, the extra votes, both visible and hidden, put your concerns about vote shenanigans into a different light. Which were you responsible for, the one on Gadarene or the three on Mosier?

None of them. I can't affect the vote total beyond my own vote. I suspected there would be something like this, but I didn't expect four somethings. Looks like a 2-vote margin won't be enough.

[MHaye]

Fascinating.

I missed the extra vote on Gadarene and the one on Mosier. I speculate that they are separate players (although can't prove this, and the vote charger roles in Malazan are a counterargument).

The three late votes for Mosier are probably a single power; one-shot, I hope.

Normal, the vote for Silver Jan was basically insurance against the possibility of not finding a better candidate before Day's end. Do you think it would have been better to place the vote with no explanation? I don't.

[Gadarene]

I'm alive!

Here's how this is going to go:

(1) I'm going to point to my post after day was called where I think I'm the lynch and express my desire that town win the game.

(2) I'm going to state that because this was (in my mind) effectively a dead-post, I would have no motivation to be less than honest about my affiliation, and therefore I am an obvious townie.

(3) People are going to say that it could all have been part of some elaborate ploy on my part where I knew (under this theory) that I wasn't going to be the lynch despite my leading in votes at the end of Day.

(4) People are going to call me scummy for thinking my "dead-post" clears me.

(5) People are going to call me scummy for pointing out my "dead-post."

(6) People are going to call me scummy for making this list.

Does that about cover it? Actual thoughts about actual things later.

[Gadarene]

Whoops, forgot one:

(7) People are going to call me scummy for predicting that people are going to call me scummy.

[Astral Rejection]

Missed one.

8) Only scum would put so much effort into circumstantially proving they aren't scum.

[Gadarene]

Originally Posted by Astral Rejection

Missed one.

8) Only scum would put so much effort into circumstantially proving they aren't scum.

Not much effort at all. And I'd prefer to be seen as clearish so, y'know, Town doesn't waste a lynch or a vig on me.

One thing I'd like to do at some point is go over the wagons and see who voted me when and for what claimed reason. Voting me on the basis of a "me too" vote that I later elaborated upon is reeeeeeeeeeeally flimsy, especially when I'm a lead wagon. I don't buy that everyone did it in good faith.

[Normal Phase]

Originally Posted by MHaye

Normal, the vote for Silver Jan was basically insurance against the possibility of not finding a better candidate before Day's end. Do you think it would have been better to place the vote with no explanation? I don't.

No, I think it would have come off as more "real" not to work in such a top-down fashion, nor to overdo a simple vote to such a huge extent. This is what your post looks like:

-- hmm, bad bandwagon here, probably on a townie
-- hmm, let's examine his voters one by one and see what looks bad enough to vote for
-- hmm, let's pick one of several more or less equally bad-looking options and dress it up with a full post-analysis that turns up really nothing more damning than the original "this vote is not good", then place a vote anyway

And the bit I chopped off, about Astral (and Gadarene) and how you wanted to (and ultimately did) come back to them later -- it just feels all backwards to me in terms of priorities, MHaye. Silver Jan had no votes and hadn't been the subject of much discussion. Astral did have a vote or votes and was the subject of a lot of discussion, much of it revolving around Gadarene, who was a potential lynch target. Now what's more important for a townie to figure out under limited time constraints -- getting a handle on a situation that could affect the lynch, or getting a vote on the record, given an expressed interest in doing both things but a lack of time to do it in? I'd think the former. And what did you actually prioritize, and to what extent? The latter, and to a great extent.

Your whole Silver Jan post could have been summed up in a paragraph or so, or even less: "I'm suspicious of Silver Jan for voting Visorslash on such a thin reason and not unvoting him (also on a thin reason). I'd like to get it on the record before going on to the other interesting stuff. Vote Silver Jan." The end.

Everything but that is window-dressing, misplaced to boot, and to me at the moment, not terribly convincing as being anythign other than a big show of trying to do the right thing as a townie.

[Normal Phase]

Well, Gadarene, really all those points could be boiled down to:

-- somebody used a lot of effort to keep you and/or Astral alive
-- that somebody is not a good guy in the game
-- that somebody is either framing you, at great expense unless those extra votes are in fact unlimited, or has a different interest in keeping you alive and kicking

The rest is not worth discussing.

[Gadarene]

Originally Posted by Normal Phase

Well, Gadarene, really all those points could be boiled down to:

-- somebody used a lot of effort to keep you and/or Astral alive
-- that somebody is not a good guy in the game
-- that somebody is either framing you, at great expense unless those extra votes are in fact unlimited, or has a different interest in keeping you alive and kicking

The rest is not worth discussing.

That's not true, actually. My points are going to my post that I made when I was lynch leader and I assumed I was dead. At the very least, my post should be considered a data point towards my townieness. If you want to believe that it was an elaborate ploy because I somehow knew that the lynch would end up getting flipped, there's nothing stopping you, but it certainly isn't the simplest explanation.

[Astral Rejection]

Originally Posted by Normal Phase

that somebody is not a good guy in the game

How do you know this? While disrupting the lynch is pretty scummy, vote powers are generally a town power. It's not completely out of the question that a town player could have choosen to save Gadarene. At the very least, we shouldn't completely discount that idea immediately, especially as it seems likely more than one player affected the vote.

-- that somebody is either framing you, at great expense unless those extra votes are in fact unlimited, or has a different interest in keeping you alive and kicking

This part I agree with completely. It's very pro-scum to leave town's top targets (me and Gad) alive for town to worry about toMorrow. It would seem to implicate scum having some agenda, but with multiple players affecting the vote (as seems to be the case), we can't draw any conclusions with certainty.

[Gadarene]

I will also again point out that I am apparently one of the "town's top targets" because (1) I piggybacked Guiri's vote of Astral early without explaining my read sufficiently at that time; and (2) I was unable to post this weekend. That's it. If someone would like to present a more elaborate or detailed case on why they think I am likely to be scum, I would be interested in hearing it, but those two points are what everyone's votes have boiled down to so far. And, frankly, that's not a good case.

Dopers fall prey to voting inertia too much, in my opinion. Someone becomes an early target for x reason or y reason, and then they stay a target throughout that day and later days often for no other reason than that they were an early target. In the beginning, however, we have very little information on which to base our decisions. As we gain information, we as Town should be willing to let our reads be flexible and dynamic, to adapt to the present game-state rather than simply thinking, "well, people thought Gad was scummy at the beginning of day 1. He's a good vote."

[Gadarene]

Particularly when the reasons for finding me scummy at the beginning of day 1 are, as I've said, a load of quaffle.

[Normal Phase]

After the Silver Jan vote, I make some noise criticising it, and MHaye says something like "fair enough, it was weak anyway", which -- fine. he had stated his intent to review Astral previously, so I don't have anything to say about that aspect.

Originally Posted by MHaye

I've opted to review the posts of Astral Rejection (AR), not realising how prolific he has been. 90% of the reason is that he's voted for me and that caught my eye. The other 10% is the shenanigans at around 10pm yesterday. That might have been enough on its own, but maybe I'd just have looked at his posts around then.

I'm not going to look at every post, just what I consider the significant ones.

Post 26 has attracted some heat. I read it at the time, and still do, as a simple cheesy pun.

Post 66: I think AR makes a couple of good points here. Plausible speculation.

Post 78: Votes Choie for suggesting Guiri's vote for AR might have been in jest. I can see what AR is saying. I'm not sure I would have voted for it, but that's just a difference of opinion.

For the record, I can't see what Astral is saying here at all, never mind the vote.

Post 84: Questions Gadarene on his vote.

Post 169: Pushes Gadarene further, unvotes Choie and explains that he caught a hint of something that he can't detect any longer.

Post 186: Votes me. This is the big one, obviously (at least from my point of view. Others may tend to focus on his vote-jumping.)

AR takes issue with me not jumping into a mess of Day 1 votes, fists swinging. Frankly, I don't know why he expects me to.

I find early Day 1 votes are almost never worth commenting on. Eitehr they're joke votes, random votes or drive-bys with the intention of getting the voted-for person to participate. What those votes have in common is a lack of any real justification.

In my opinion, nothing's going to be learned by criticising them as they happen, they're pretty much meaningless except for the voter and wheover is voted for. Any value we're going to extract from them comes at the end of the Day (or more likely, future Days) when we have perspective and the evidence of several Days actions and role reveals.

Apropos of nothing, I disagree. But that should be no surprise.

Given that opinion, and the fact that my knee-jerk reactions cannot be trusted (as discussed in post 272, why should I jump in at the time? It's going to waste my time and add to the fog. All I'm going to do is note them and carry on. If you don't like that, tough. I'm not going to change my playstyle.

You know, I do recognize that Astral could be scummy with scum sauce (just look at that vote count) and you as pure as the driven snow, but you're still slinging it around pretty heavy here. I know your playstyle as well as anyone, and it still struck me, once Astral had pointed it out, that you'd managed to go half the day without commenting on anything remotely vote related at all. Correct me if I'm wrong -- night is a good time for that sort of thing -- but I think that you generally do, when you're town. You might not place a vote, but you're in there somewhere, one in a while, saying something. If find this to be a valid vote, if also a really easy one that a scum Astral could toss out without breaking a sweat. (For that matter, it would be an easy vote even if he's scum with you.)

In fact, if I do jump in hard with early votes on Day 1, either I've found a smoking gun or I have a hidden agenda. Was there really a smoking gun there?

Inner Stickler mentioned my name and raised my grudge warning. It amused me to post that. AR started his game with a pun, but criticises me for opening my game with a lighthearted hail to another player who was trying to steal my thunder? Noted.

Post 187: Compares his post to one of Glee's and asks Guiri and Gadarene why they singled him out for votes over Glee. Defends this in post 229.

We now come to the vote shenanigans.

AR asks me why I haven't weighed in on the main topics – a question already annswerd, see 272 and comments above – and switches to Gadarene, then (on having his error pointed out) switches back.

The actual vote switch isn't as important (imo) as his explanation of why. He defends his change in post 279 as wanting to ensure no-one could jump from voting Gad to voting Visorslash and cause a sudden last-minute change in the vote lead. Now, that could be a respectable defence, if employed alongside an explanation of why he considered Gadarene more likely than Visorslash to be Mafia. In AR's defence, he's been pushing Gadarene about his vote all Day; against that you have to consider that Gadarene has voted for AR while Visorslash hasn't.

Hold up a second here, I remember this from the first reading as being something I wanted to point out. So voting Gadarene woudl be defensible if Astral had expressed suspicion of Gadarene over Visorslash. Astral actually HAD questioned Gadarene a couple of times, versus Visorslash not at all. Does that not demonstrate the requisite level of suspicion, right there? It should not take much, and you yourself state that you have no issue with such a vote being placed as such.

Also, how is Gadarene having voted for Astral supposed to be a point AGAINST Astral's having enough suspicion of Gad to return the favor if he felt the urge? It should be the opposite. Your argument here is muddled, you seem to be trying to make him look more suspicious than he is, despite the veneer of fair-mindedness.

All in all you have turned up no reason so far that you yourself should find Astral worth voting for, save for one reason that is IMO precisely backwards.

Inner Stickler suggests possible Mafia motivations, which AR admits he can't disprove in post 282.

Well fine. But what does that have to do with you?

In post 286 AR says that he aimed to “preserve what town had selected as their lynch.” That could be a very interesting slip of the tongue. It seems to suggest that he knows that the voters on Visorslash include anti-Town elements, which raises the question of how he knew that. Alternatively, he might be a Mafiate pushing a Townie wagon further into the lead (which doesn't have any implications for Visorslash, by the way).

No way. I would never in a million years consider that first option as an explanation for Astral's words. IS's "he might be trying too hard to look townie' rings true. This does not, this is a scummy PIS accusation right out of Drain Bead's textbook, IMO.

Or it might be the gift of a clear conscience.

Oh, so it might be nothing.

Post 302: Claims he had not thought through all the implications and possibilities when he decided to switch. If he's Town this is almost certainly true; if he's not it's a fib. Unfortunately we can't tell (unless there's a lie detector role in the game) without lynching him. Pity in a way.

Argh, this cannot be real! Does anyone else see this? It's fake contemplation, IMO, it's all for show.

It seems plain that AR has some suspicions of Gadarene, but failed to explain why he thought Visorslash was less suspicious. Consequently the vote switch does leave a bad impression.

Enough of an impression to overshadow the very faint suspicion Silver Jan left me with? Yes, much more so. Couple this with his ignoring my playstyle, which he has been exposed to, and which I have already commented on once and had completely ignored, that's enough for a vote.

Unvote.
Vote Astral Rejection

And so, at the end of it all, despite
-- believing the vote switch in itself would not be suspicious if Astral showed enough suspicion of Gadarene over Visorslash
-- failing to demonstrate (or demonstrating with backwards logic) that Astral had not met that threshhold
-- qualifying every single statement he made about six ways to Sunday

he votes for Astral. And the thing is, I could buy a townie MHaye voting Astral merely on the play style thing. If he's innocent, it's as valid a point from his perspective as I think Astral's [would be/would have been/was/pick the right tense and mood please] from his. But it's surrounded with too much excess verbiage -- much of which I have significant problems with on its own merits -- to ring completely true.

And finally, this bit?

Consequently the vote switch does leave a bad impression.[/indent]Enough of an impression to overshadow the very faint suspicion Silver Jan left me with? Yes, much more so.

I'm going to pull a Pizza here. Rhetorical question? That you answer yourself? You sure aren't trying to convince anyone of Astral's guilt right here. No, you're trying to convince the townies that you have a good reason for changing your vote. That's what scum do.

[Normal Phase]

Originally Posted by Gadarene

That's not true, actually. My points are going to my post that I made when I was lynch leader and I assumed I was dead. At the very least, my post should be considered a data point towards my townieness. If you want to believe that it was an elaborate ploy because I somehow knew that the lynch would end up getting flipped, there's nothing stopping you, but it certainly isn't the simplest explanation.

But the thing is, if scum, you WOULD have known, or at least known it was a very strong possibility, that you would live. So you'd have had all the motive you'd need to make such a post. IMO that makes the whole thing WIFOM of the purest sort and not worth discussing.

[Astral Rejection]

Originally Posted by Gadarene

Particularly when the reasons for finding me scummy at the beginning of day 1 are, as I've said, a load of quaffle.

Totally unlike your reason for voting for me at the beginning of Day 1, right?

[Astral Rejection]

Re: Normal Phase's entire case on MHaye.

I agree, completely. You've phrased my own suspicions better than I probably could have. There was quite a bit pinging me about him, but I was struggling to put it into words.

[choie]

Hoo doggies, this is a big load of WTF.

Is it possible that one of the anti-Mosier voters had their votes tripled? Or quadrupled, I guess, since it looks like there were four extra votes. But why is one of those extra votes anonymous, i.e. not credited to askthepizzaguy? And ditto the extra vote on Gadarene? Did whoever placed the extra vote on Gadarene know that someone was placing a fuckton of extra votes on Mosier and try to save Mosier? But then wouldn't it have been smarter to just add the votes to Astral, who's in second place? Are the lost hit points definitely related to the "I'll protect you!" cries? Why was someone (Inner Stickler if the color is chronologically correct, which I don't see any reason to doubt) so determined to protect Visorslash during the battle? And it looks like he had reason to, considering Visorslash was obviously being targetted for whatever reason.

To address Gadarene's "I said Go Town! after EOD so I must be Townie!" point, it's a good one, except I'm pretty sure I've read games where a lynch leader proclaimed "Go town!" before the final color was at last reported and they flipped scum, only then to get all "mwah-ha-ha!" in their real final comments.

Plus, the fact that you weren't lynched could indicate that you knew you weren't going to die, so that last heroic "I regret I have one life to give for my country!" moment was merely a way of looking good.

And on preview I see that Normal Phase has just pointed out the same thing I did about Gadarene's noble goodbye speech. Ah well.

... Or you could really be Town, and it's just a coincidence that someone saved your ass.

But I still don't understand why the extra votes wouldn't have been placed on Astral since it would've taken fewer of them to save Gadarene. In fact it looks like someone went to a lot of trouble to save Astral while pinning the blame on Gadarene by tossing off one vote on Gadarene just to... y'know, I have no idea how to end that sentence. What was the point of that one-off Gadarene vote unless it was someone trying to save Mosier, someone who apparently know about the extra vote mechanics?

Is someone trying to cast blame on the Mosier voters, or the Astral voters, or the Gadarene voters? Or on Astral and Gadarene themselves? Is it someone not aligned with any of those three groups and/or suspects?

Holy crap I am confused. I think I've just described a conspiracy involving almost everyone. If anyone knows their Agatha Christie classics, it's like...

SPOILER:

Murder on the Orient Express

... only with blame instead of knives in the dark.

Seriously, people: W. T. F.?!

[Normal Phase]

Originally Posted by Astral Rejection

How do you know this? While disrupting the lynch is pretty scummy, vote powers are generally a town power. It's not completely out of the question that a town player could have choosen to save Gadarene. At the very least, we shouldn't completely discount that idea immediately, especially as it seems likely more than one player affected the vote.

This part I agree with completely. It's very pro-scum to leave town's top targets (me and Gad) alive for town to worry about toMorrow. It would seem to implicate scum having some agenda, but with multiple players affecting the vote (as seems to be the case), we can't draw any conclusions with certainty.

The first part is based on it being explicitly said that the traitor is pulling the Demon Lord's strings, and three of the extra votes being explictily attributed to the Demon Lord. You'd have to do a lot of convincing to get me to belive those three votes came from anywhere else. The single ones on Gadarene and Mosier, sure, they could be from anywhere.

I have some issues with you singling out that last statement of mine when I've said or implied elsewhere that I have difficulty believing that the traitor would use such a strong power just to frame a couple of townies when he could instead use it more productively to save scum. And I've also had I have difficulty believing the power is unlimited. It would be a brutal blow to the town's ability to lynch scum, if so.

There's a bit of wiggle room in the gray area there; I don't consider it a slam dunk that either of you are scum, but I'd still bet that way if I had to.

[LightFoot]

I’m leaning towards a few players have an extra vote. –or- maybe they get a (2) vote on whoever they vote for?

If the 3 late votes for Mosier were a single power – my logic feels they were cast by someone trying to protect the lynch leaders.

If it were a one shot Town power they would not have used it so early (and essentially blindly)*
* not including a mason pairing


If it were a Scum one shot power why use it so early when the vote could have easily shifted between the top two?

This leads me to believe that Gaderene or Astral or Visorslash or any combination had someone trying to protect them.


And given the Night colour, Visorslash certainly had a few looking out for him. ( we don’t know when the order for the extra votes was sent in. It may have been when visorslash and Gaderene were the top two as well.)


Why would the extra 3 be placed on Mosier ? who wasn't in the running?

If one player has the ability, they would/should think another might also?.


Then if protecting Gaderene why not slam Astral or Visorslash to be sure?
Or any other combination of leaders

Which leaves me with Gaderene/Astral/Visorslash one (or more) appears to have been the target of said vote protection?

If this reads as rambling, I’m composing it in spurts.

[choie]

Originally Posted by LightFoot

If this reads as rambling, I’m composing it in spurts.

I think rambling is pretty much all most of us can do considering the utterly bizarre results. Reading over my own post it's like I just regurgitated random thoughts all over the page.

(Sorry for that unattractive visual.)

[Gadarene]

Originally Posted by Normal Phase

But the thing is, if scum, you WOULD have known, or at least known it was a very strong possibility, that you would live. So you'd have had all the motive you'd need to make such a post. IMO that makes the whole thing WIFOM of the purest sort and not worth discussing.

No, because you're still building in multiple assumptions: (1) that I'm scum; (2) that the person who gave Mosier three extra votes is scum; (3) that I was sure that those three extra votes would push Mosier over me; (4) that I pretended to make a dead-post exhorting town to victory as part of my fiendish plan.

A much simpler explanation is: that I made my dead-post exhorting town to victory because (1) I thought I was dead; and (2) that I'm Town.

You see what I mean?

[Gadarene]

Originally Posted by Astral Rejection

Totally unlike your reason for voting for me at the beginning of Day 1, right?

I have caught multiple scum solely on the basis of their opening post. Ask Weedy. In fact, I caught Weedy herself as scum when she made a "studiedly casual" opening post on day one and I pointed it out immediately.

[Normal Phase]

I do not consider #2 an assumption. Until and unless it is proven otherwise, I believe there is sufficient evidence to consider the described traitor as scum (probably a godfather to boot in some way), and the logic chain linking the traitor to the votes is as solid as can be. #3 is in fact not necessary for such a post; even the possibility that you would survive would be sufficient.

So basically all I am saying is that I will give you no town cred for it, because IF you are scum, it would have been a logical card to play. I mean, why not?

[choie]

Originally Posted by Gadarene

No, because you're still building in multiple assumptions: (1) that I'm scum; (2) that the person who gave Mosier three extra votes is scum; (3) that I was sure that those three extra votes would push Mosier over me; (4) that I pretended to make a dead-post exhorting town to victory as part of my fiendish plan.

A much simpler explanation is: that I made my dead-post exhorting town to victory because (1) I thought I was dead; and (2) that I'm Town.

You see what I mean?

No, it's not nearly as convoluted as that. As I've said, I've read (and I think participated in) games where the lynched Scum composed a lovely ave atque vale speech before the revealing color went up, only to say afterward "Bye, bitches! Hail Satan!" And that was when there was none of these freakydeaky goings-on afterwards where they were still alive, so there was no need for them to act coy like that.

In other words, all that needs to be assumed is that 1) you're scum and were still playing the role of innocent townie until 2) the color went up to reveal your scummitude.

[LightFoot]

Originally Posted by gnarlycharlie

AWESOME!!!

i too want to live long enough to understand this.

You know you're going to catch some for this, right?

Are the vote shenanigans Awesome?
Is the Dead Townie Awesome?

can you elaborate?

[Gadarene]

*shrug*

People can continue to be paranoid and think I'm scum. I'm not.

I do think Normal Phase is probably town, with the way she's approached everything.

[Normal Phase]

Cool. Give me all your role information. ^^

[Astral Rejection]

Originally Posted by Gadarene

I have caught multiple scum solely on the basis of their opening post.

You're going to be so disappointed when I die.

Originally Posted by Normal Phase

Cool. Give me all your role information. ^^

Shenanigans!!!

(Sorry* for the night fluff. I'm at work, so case building is out of the question. Silly jokes are about the best I can do.)

((*I'm not really sorry. Night fluff is fun.))

[NAF1138]

You are crap at defending yourself Gad, you know that? Your post Lynch posting says nothing about you at all and you should know that.
On the other hand your other behavior speaks townie to me so I won't re vote for you toMorrow.

[realitytrip]

Wow. Just wow. From ATPG's setup, I knew there would be some hidden powers, but this seems pretty ridiculously strong. There were a total of 5 added votes? Even if the Demon Lord 3 shot was a one time deal, the town will have to win by 3 votes during the day to prevent any voting shenanigans.

Still processing....

[Normal Phase]

Heh. Because he's SO bad at defending himself?

[Gadarene]

Originally Posted by Normal Phase

Cool. Give me all your role information. ^^

Okay. PM incoming.

Originally Posted by Astral Rejection

You're going to be so disappointed when I die.

It's probablistic, Astral. I don't know why so many people don't seem to get this. Am I saying I'm definitely right about your role? Obviously not. And, honestly, I think you've defended yourself in a relatively townie way. But the reasons for my vote were valid and my thought process was valid, even if I end up being wrong this time. Divorce results from process, and think probabilistically.

[LightFoot]

Lord Phere takes 80hp damage. ( unknown )
Lord Phere takes 80hp damage. (unknown)

Lightfoot takes 25hp damage. (unknown)

Inner Stickler takes 75hp damage. (protected Visorslash)

Glee takes 13hp damage. (unknown)

Visorslash takes 100hp damage.( magical orb damage even with protection)

ToeJam takes 50hp damage. (unknown)

GuiriEnEspana takes 50hp damage.(unknown)

Red Skeezix takes 60hp damage. (unknown)



Visorslash,BobArrgh,Inner Stickler were all protected ( or attempt was made to protect them)

The players with damage may have attacked Lord Phere-another player-or been protecting a player.

I doubt the Mod would have placed the offers of protection in order of the HP damage so I’m not reading anything into that just now


I made this list for me. And decided to share it in case someone else saw something I’ve missed.

[NAF1138]

Originally Posted by Normal Phase

Heh. Because he's SO bad at defending himself?

No, but seriously he is doing a terrible job. It's a lot of subtle stuff that I think is hard to fake about how he reacted to coming back from being away and finding himself in the vote lead that makes me think he is town.

Still, really crap at defending himself.

[choie]

Originally Posted by Gadarene

Okay. PM incoming.

Wait wait wait, isn't sharing role PMs against the rules? Or is it just posting them in public?

Originally Posted by askthepizzaguy's rule 4

4. You may not quote your role PM. You may claim a character class, or alignment, or element, or claim a special power, or just make things up. But you cannot reveal your role via copy and pasting any part of it. In other words, use natural language to discuss who you are, don't discuss your role in a severely out of character way, such as:

"The first line of my role PM says..."
Even if you're paraphrasing.

Best ask for clarification before doing any forwarding. I know pizzaguy can't police PMs, but still...

[Gadarene]

Originally Posted by choie

Wait wait wait, isn't sharing role PMs against the rules? Or is it just posting them in public?



Best ask for clarification before doing any forwarding. I know pizzaguy can't police PMs, but still...

I didn't share or quote my role PM in any way; I abided by the rules in the OP (and I copied Pizza on the communication). I merely gave Normal my role information for her to do with as she sees fit.

[realitytrip]

Originally Posted by BobArrgh

Hmmm ... interesting that more than one person protected Visorslash. One explanation could be that his Scum Buddies protected him. Another explanation is that his Mason Buddies protected him.

In any case, Inner Stickler seems to be tied to Visorslash in some way. Of course, this could be a direct buddy-buddy connection, or it could be an indirect connection (as in, Inner Stickler having an action where he protects the second-place vote getter, regardless of who it is.)

I would love to hear Inner Stickler's take on his protecting Visorslash.....

[Gadarene]

Originally Posted by NAF1138

No, but seriously he is doing a terrible job. It's a lot of subtle stuff that I think is hard to fake about how he reacted to coming back from being away and finding himself in the vote lead that makes me think he is town.

Still, really crap at defending himself.

I agree that my time at POG has made me lazy about composing huge, analytical posts defending myself; I generally hope I can get by on tone and scumhunting and stuff.

I obviously need to do more scumhunting as the game goes on.

[Gadarene]

Originally Posted by LightFoot

Lord Phere takes 80hp damage. ( unknown )
Lord Phere takes 80hp damage. (unknown)

Lightfoot takes 25hp damage. (unknown)

Inner Stickler takes 75hp damage. (protected Visorslash)

Glee takes 13hp damage. (unknown)

Visorslash takes 100hp damage.( magical orb damage even with protection)

ToeJam takes 50hp damage. (unknown)

GuiriEnEspana takes 50hp damage.(unknown)

Red Skeezix takes 60hp damage. (unknown)



Visorslash,BobArrgh,Inner Stickler were all protected ( or attempt was made to protect them)

The players with damage may have attacked Lord Phere-another player-or been protecting a player.

I doubt the Mod would have placed the offers of protection in order of the HP damage so I’m not reading anything into that just now


I made this list for me. And decided to share it in case someone else saw something I’ve missed.

I think this makes Guiri greater than random chance (>rand) to be Town, as I can't see a Townie attacking him on Day One. Actually, let me revise that: I think that Guiri was attacked by either Scum or by a Third Party, so I guess that doesn't say anything one way or the other about his role (since he could be a scum who was attacked by a third party, etc.). I just don't think he was attacked by a Townie.

[Gadarene]

I'm curious about who (and why, and maybe even how) attacked Lord Phere. Lord Phere is Pizza's role, right?

[Gadarene]

The wording of the color in #379 makes it possible that Guiri was the one who protected Inner and got damaged for his troubles. Dunno whether that needs to be squared with Inner explicitly being the person to try and protect Visorslash earlier in the sequence.

Also, looks like (a) more than one person attacked Lord Phere; and (b) not all of the damage taken was the result of players attacking each other; some of it was from the hell fighters summoned by Lord Phere.

[Gadarene]

I'd like to see whether (and how) Normal publicly confirms receipt of my PM.

[choie]

Good to hear you didn't break the rules, Gadarene. Sorry for implying you would, I just thought you might not've considered what you were doing as potentiall rule-breaking. If you and/or Normal are townies, it would suck if we ended up losing you for something petty like that. (Though I suppose Normal could be scum trying to lure you into rule-breaking, since she suggested it... but she reads as Town to me, I think.)

I'm actually interested in glee's measly 13hp damage. Was his attacker that bad a fighter, or is glee that powerful a dodger/evader/defender? All the other people attacked received much more damage.

[LightFoot]

Originally Posted by Gadarene

I think this makes Guiri greater than random chance (>rand) to be Town, as I can't see a Townie attacking him on Day One. Actually, let me revise that: I think that Guiri was attacked by either Scum or by a Third Party, so I guess that doesn't say anything one way or the other about his role (since he could be a scum who was attacked by a third party, etc.). I just don't think he was attacked by a Townie.

I don't follow?
How do you arrive at this?

[Gadarene]

Originally Posted by choie

Good to hear you didn't break the rules, Gadarene. Sorry for implying you would, I just thought you might not've considered what you were doing as potentiall rule-breaking. If you and/or Normal are townies, it would suck if we ended up losing you for something petty like that. (Though I suppose Normal could be scum trying to lure you into rule-breaking, since she suggested it... but she reads as Town to me, I think.)

I'm actually interested in glee's measly 13hp damage. Was his attacker that bad a fighter, or is glee that powerful a dodger/evader/defender? All the other people attacked received much more damage.

I didn't take offense at all; no worries! I've never played in a Mafia/werewolf game where players can just freely PM amongst themselves, and I'm pretty tickled by the novelty of it. I didn't even necessarily take Normal's asking for my role information as a request to PM her (I thought it was more of a deadpan joke in the vein of, "oh, you trust me, do you?") -- it made me smile to be able to essentially put my money where my mouth was there.

Pizza, are people allowed to quote (or purport to quote) PM communications that they receive from other players?

Also, choie: good observation about glee. I hadn't really paid attention to that when I read through the color just now.

[Gadarene]

Originally Posted by LightFoot

I don't follow?
How do you arrive at this?

Because Guiri is an excellent, excellent player. Guiri is, as far as I can tell, one of the leading candidates for a night one nightkill in all games where he is not scum. Most people in this game would know Guiri's reputation (it was even alluded to several times on day one) and would not think that Guiri was a good target for their attack toDay.

I guess I should moderate my earlier remark by saying: If Guiri was attacked by a Townie, then his attacker is someone who is not familiar with Guiri's reputation as perhaps the strongest player and most incisive, relentless scumhunter on this board.

(No pressure, Guiri! )

[Suburban Plankton]

Catching up after a busy weekend. Ve-e-ry Interesting...


Anyway, a number of posts coming:

Originally Posted by Gadarene

I have caught multiple scum solely on the basis of their opening post. Ask Weedy. In fact, I caught Weedy herself as scum when she made a "studiedly casual" opening post on day one and I pointed it out immediately.

You do realize this is a bunch of BS, right?

I will accept that you have on more than one occasion identified Scum based on a single post. That doesn't mean you have any special talent for it. It means you happened to guess right a few times.

If I fire a shotgun blindly into the air a hundred times, and happen to hit a few ducks in the process, that doesn't make me an expert hunter.

[LightFoot]

Originally Posted by Gadarene

Because Guiri is an excellent, excellent player. Guiri is, as far as I can tell, one of the leading candidates for a night one nightkill in all games where he is not scum. Most people in this game would know Guiri's reputation (it was even alluded to several times on day one) and would not think that Guiri was a good target for their attack toDay.

I guess I should moderate my earlier remark by saying: If Guiri was attacked by a Townie, then his attacker is someone who is not familiar with Guiri's reputation as perhaps the strongest player and most incisive, relentless scumhunter on this board.

(No pressure, Guiri! )

ah I'd take that with a grain of salt though, Good players can be slippery Scum too