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  #51  
Old 03-18-2012, 10:18 AM
zweisamkeit zweisamkeit is offline
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You guys should check out what Casey has done over at Ravelry, a knitting/crocheting/spinning site. While there are some things that I wish I could tweak a bit more, it's a really nifty forum design. If someone replies specifically to me in any thread I've posted in, there's a box that appears at the top of the forums saying, "hey! You have # unread replies!" Click it and the box expands to list each reply you have waiting for you. You can click to go directly to the reply, but when you get there, there's a light green bar saying that you have unread posts between where you stopped reading in the thread and this reply to you. You can either go to last unread or tell it to mark those posts as read.

The post numbers are large-ish and they fade to grey as you scroll/read, as a live indicator of what posts you've read. You can watch a thread, making it like a sticky at the top of the specific forum, or ignore a thread. The forum display shows total posts to thread AND next to it is a bold number indicating how many new posts since you last went to the thread (NOT based on your activity timestamp).

You can do more with users, too. Besides ignore, you can block a specific avatar if you find it offensive/gross and you can even "disagreen", which replaces a user's avatar with a green square; it's great for times when you don't want to ignore a user but want a quick reminder that you generally find them annoying or whatever.

You also can favorite specific posts, like an in-Ravelry bookmark. And a great balance between pure discussion and ego-driven ratings is the buttons for each post. You can click any combination of the buttons for a post, which include Educational, Interesting, Agree, Disagree, Love. You can also disable the display of any of them if you want.
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  #52  
Old 03-18-2012, 10:23 AM
zweisamkeit zweisamkeit is offline
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I forgot to add that you may need to be a member to view the forums, but registering is free. And now that the site is out of beta testing, there's no queue to wait for your generated invite link.
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  #53  
Old 03-18-2012, 10:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zweisamkeit View Post
You guys should check out what Casey has done over at Ravelry, a knitting/crocheting/spinning site. While there are some things that I wish I could tweak a bit more, it's a really nifty forum design. If someone replies specifically to me in any thread I've posted in, there's a box that appears at the top of the forums saying, "hey! You have # unread replies!" Click it and the box expands to list each reply you have waiting for you. You can click to go directly to the reply, but when you get there, there's a light green bar saying that you have unread posts between where you stopped reading in the thread and this reply to you. You can either go to last unread or tell it to mark those posts as read.

The post numbers are large-ish and they fade to grey as you scroll/read, as a live indicator of what posts you've read. You can watch a thread, making it like a sticky at the top of the specific forum, or ignore a thread. The forum display shows total posts to thread AND next to it is a bold number indicating how many new posts since you last went to the thread (NOT based on your activity timestamp).

You can do more with users, too. Besides ignore, you can block a specific avatar if you find it offensive/gross and you can even "disagreen", which replaces a user's avatar with a green square; it's great for times when you don't want to ignore a user but want a quick reminder that you generally find them annoying or whatever.
It won't let me look at anything without signing up. Is it kinda like Facebook notifications?
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  #54  
Old 03-18-2012, 01:03 PM
Jake Jake is offline
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I really would like to see Little Ed's response to this thread. I think it's truly important to see what management thinks about this.
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  #55  
Old 03-18-2012, 01:08 PM
zweisamkeit zweisamkeit is offline
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Originally Posted by Reply View Post
It won't let me look at anything without signing up. Is it kinda like Facebook notifications?

Yeah, I posted right after saying I forgot you'd have to sign up, sorry. Ravelry forum notifications aren't sent to email addresses but are on the site itself. I could take some screenshots when I'm at an actual computer instead of on my phone, if you'd like.
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  #56  
Old 03-18-2012, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by zweisamkeit View Post
Yeah, I posted right after saying I forgot you'd have to sign up, sorry. Ravelry forum notifications aren't sent to email addresses but are on the site itself. I could take some screenshots when I'm at an actual computer instead of on my phone, if you'd like.
That's what Facebook does too (in addition to emails). You click a little icon and it shows you replies to threads you've participated in, people's comments and tags about you, people liking your stuff, etc.
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  #57  
Old 03-18-2012, 05:55 PM
Measure for Measure Measure for Measure is offline
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If we wanted to scale up this board to handle 10x the number of visitors, it could get unwieldy and a reputation system might make sense.

We could consider a Dunning–Kruger reputational structure. The user would award personal karma (or anti-karma) to posters he likes. By default, the preferences of those posters would get weighted into the karma score. Except it wouldn't be one karma score: there would be as many karma scores as members. And, as in slashdot, you could turn the whole thing off if you wanted to.[1]The karma score would be used to highlight posts by trusted authors and perhaps place untrusted authors in a smaller font or maybe indented in some way.


Drama would ensue. Drama always ensues. Posters would want to know average karma scores: at slashdot, they don't publish a listing. Reputation should be a method of sifting through the chaff. It's an entry on a database: it shouldn't be taken too seriously. But it would be. Frankly I doubt whether my proposal would work well in practice at existing membership levels-- but there's always the dream.


[1] Maybe it would only be invoked when the thread reaches a certain number of pages or replies.

Last edited by Measure for Measure; 03-18-2012 at 05:57 PM..
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  #58  
Old 03-18-2012, 09:34 PM
SpaceDog SpaceDog is offline
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Welcome to the boards codinghorror. I love stackoverload, I was trying to remember last week what I used to do when there no sites like that and finding answers to obscure problems wasn't as simple as throwing the error message into Google. I think we probably went and asked the resident guru for help. Anyway, I'm rambling ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by codinghorror View Post
However, I do believe very strongly that
  • most of today's forum software has evolved hardly at all from its late 90's origins
  • the hard-earned lessons of these thriving 10 year old plus forum communities should be baked into forum software itself, as much as we can
  • improved forum software design would give new communities a better chance at actually succeeding and surviving
As other's have said -- trying to change the SDMB is a losing battle and we'd be better off not derailing this thread by discussing the pros and cons of the boards legendary resistance to change.

But you are correct, message board software hasn't really moved on at the level of other software over the last few years. But that's not for the lack of trying -- most truly innovative things (I'm thinking Google Wave) just don't catch on because they're too different.

Sure, we can fix the minor annoyances such as improved subscriptions, better unread message tracking, a slicker interface -- but doing anything that fundamentally changes things is going to be a hard sell.

Even something simple like sub-threading -- where you can see who replied to who, and potentially hide some hijack or other by burying a sub-thread -- only works if people actually click the right buttons and refrain from making two points in one post.

I guess what I'm saying is that it needs to not rely on the users doing anything much different to normal, and also not change the overall look and feel too much.

Ideas like the one ntucker posted might fit into this. Basically it's new functionality that's available if required, although it still needs human intervention.

Perhaps there's some way for the board software to read the threads and make guesses about related posts and start automatically adding linking. Maybe you could have the board automatically judge reputation / karma from board responses.

Oh, and it needs to be able to import the archives from the old system.

SD
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  #59  
Old 03-18-2012, 09:44 PM
SpaceDog SpaceDog is offline
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And it'd be an idea to try and bake in different ways to make money -- all sites need to make at least a little to cover costs even if they're not in it for the big bucks.

Perhaps there are better ways including ads in a site, or different sources of income altogether (pay for features?).

If we're redesigning the whole idea of a message board from scratch we may as well be honest about the need for a way to make money.
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  #60  
Old 03-19-2012, 04:21 PM
RaftPeople RaftPeople is offline
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ntucker's suggestion regarding tracking the summary of a debate is a good suggestion for forum software. Here are two other thoughts:

Thread Categories/Subcategories
Instead of trying to predict exactly which forums/subforums to make part of the system (which will always be full of compromises), adding a category/classification system to thread creation and the ability to organize/sort/group threads by these attributes would make it easier to find new content I want to find. For example, within a forum like "The Game Room" I could easily sort/group thereads I'm interested in (sports, ncaa football) and ignore the rest instead of reading the title of each thread and hunting for things that I'm interested in.


Thread Classification Local to User
And if I could tag threads I am interested in or definitely not interested in with a simple click (this tagging stored per user) and sort by/view this tagging, it would make finding the content I want on subsequent visits easier. In this case, threads I don't want to participate in could be sent to the bottom of the list permanently.
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  #61  
Old 03-19-2012, 11:32 PM
jjimm jjimm is offline
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Browsing the Pit just now, I had another idea to get round something that I find particularly irritating: give the mods the power to hive off anything that's just devolved into back-and-forth insults between two (or more) posters.

You would have a placeholder post that says something like: "The following X posts have been deemed by a moderator to be a pissing match" with a link to that branch. The pissing match would then be housed in a specific forum for such exchanges, and the thread would begin with a link back to the original debate.
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  #62  
Old 04-08-2012, 10:10 AM
BigT BigT is online now
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I hate that I missed this back when the guy was here, but i'm still going to address his ideas anyways. While the other suggestions are great features, I think your way of thinking has problems.

The biggest problem is that you are still trapped in the Q&A forum mindset. This idea that a community needs badges and points and rankings is completely the wrong approach. This is trying to create an element of competition, and competition divides. It creates a group of have's and have-not's.

Our site is not entirely a community site, though. It is also a Q&A site. But the way we do Q&A is not like stack overflow, and that is not how we need to go. We don't want to have to externally motivate people to perform our mission of fighting ignorance. We want to find the people who are already impassioned about this sort of thing, whether it's teaching or learning. The only thing we would want that portion of the software to do is to make it easy to ask and answer questions.

As for your other ideas: Why do we need a group of minimoderators to fight SPAM? Why not just let people mark SPAM? Same thing with trolls. If you must give weights to people, then do it behind the scenes, and let the mods have control over it.

And your idea about junk: this is a big thing where you are in the wrong mindset. Posts on a message board are a conversation. They aren't just answers that you can reorder at will. Conversations need context. The most you can do is some type of subthreading--paying attention to who is talking to whom and keeping things connected. But, honestly, if your conversations are having 2000 posts and people aren't interested in each one, then that's the problem you need to address.

Finally, I want to address something that doesnt' really affect our board, but does others. You seem to think avatars and stuff are all cruft. But personalization is a large part of many communities. There's a reason why all that stuff developed. People wanted it. Again, get out of the Q&A way of thinking: people in communities aren't necessarily interested in maximizing the amount of content they can see on screen. Those of us that are already don't use that stuff.

The thing is, the reason we are in a design rut is that the current system does so many things right. The lessons we've learned is that we want pretty much everything we already are using. We probably want more, but we don't want less.

Finally, one piece of advice for the future: it's quite clear that this is a form letter that you give to multiple places. There's nothing really taylored to our message board in your opening. A lot of boards see that as SPAM. Luckily, enough people knew you for that not to be a problem here, but you might not be so lucky elsewhere. You might be better off contacting someone in charge and asking permission. Remember, a forum is a community, and you are on the outside of that community. Tread softly.

(I will commend you on using the term rumspringa, which shows you at least picked up on the intellectual bent of this message board.)

BTW, I personally would not like notifications anytime someone responds to my post. I hate that on Facebook. It should work like a subscription--you can decide which posts actually need replies before you post it. If not, the sheer number of replies would get unwieldy, fast.
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  #63  
Old 04-08-2012, 08:38 PM
Measure for Measure Measure for Measure is offline
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If it were costless to modify software, I've wondered about the following:

1. Permit the creation of a fork to a discussion for tangents. In other words, permit the creation of a sub-topic, proposed by a poster and subject to approval by the OP. Basically, you could click a link on a parent discussion in order to view a list of sub-discussions. That could turn out badly: I don't know.

2. If somebody quotes you, you are permitted to attach an icon to various lines of their post. The icon would have 2 flavors: "Agree" and "Nod", the latter being either a weaker form of agreement or merely indicating that you understand. Sometimes another full post is simply not worth the electrons. I wouldn't include an icon for disagreement: if such conflict is substantive, it requires elaboration. If it is substantive but unimportant, then no icon is necessary.
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  #64  
Old 04-09-2012, 07:27 AM
srzss05 srzss05 is offline
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Originally Posted by Measure for Measure View Post
2. If somebody quotes you, you are permitted to attach an icon to various lines of their post. The icon would have 2 flavors: "Agree" and "Nod", the latter being either a weaker form of agreement or merely indicating that you understand. Sometimes another full post is simply not worth the electrons.
I may be misunderstanding you, but if the reply were just some icons validating a post, then people shouldn't post at all. If you don't have anything to add, don't post. Just my opinion, of course.
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  #65  
Old 04-10-2012, 12:29 AM
Jragon Jragon is offline
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I thought of a feature that would be cool, cross-posting threads. In the recent discussion about threads that can go in either the game room or the cafe society, I think it would be cool if I could, somehow, Cross-post in designated "sister forums", so I could start a thread that says "What works of art have heroines with green eyes" and start it in the Game Room and Cafe Society. This wouldn't start two different threads, rather, both forums would be a pointer to the same thread, and posting in that thread would bump it in both forums at once in the same way.
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  #66  
Old 04-10-2012, 12:50 AM
Measure for Measure Measure for Measure is offline
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Originally Posted by srzss05 View Post
I may be misunderstanding you, but if the reply were just some icons validating a post, then people shouldn't post at all. If you don't have anything to add, don't post. Just my opinion, of course.
I sort of agree except...

This feature would *only* be available to those who have been quoted. Others can do no validating. Usually when you quote someone, it implies some level of disagreement. If the parent poster wants to grant a subset of responses, but doesn't think that his response merits an entire post, this feature would might useful.

ETA: Of course the proof of the pudding is in the eating...

Last edited by Measure for Measure; 04-10-2012 at 12:51 AM..
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  #67  
Old 04-10-2012, 10:04 AM
Sister Vigilante Sister Vigilante is offline
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I'd just like the board to stop logging me out while I'm in the middle of reading a 2 page thread. Like this one.

vBulletin has a feature where it keeps everything bold that you haven't read, even from day to day. Or you could just stop logging people out so quickly.
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  #68  
Old 04-10-2012, 10:09 AM
Vinyl Turnip Vinyl Turnip is offline
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Odd, I don't think I've ever been logged out of the board automatically even when leaving a browser window open and unattended. Is there a timeout?
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  #69  
Old 04-10-2012, 10:11 AM
Czarcasm Czarcasm is offline
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Odd, I don't think I've ever been logged out of the board automatically even when leaving a browser window open and unattended. Is there a timeout?
Same here. I don't think it's happening on the board end.
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  #70  
Old 04-10-2012, 10:22 AM
Sister Vigilante Sister Vigilante is offline
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Happens to me on two different computers, on every vbulletin I visit (4), except my own (#5), which leaves me logged in until I close the window.
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  #71  
Old 04-11-2012, 10:14 AM
Sister Vigilante Sister Vigilante is offline
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Sorry guys, every time I bring this up I kill the thread without it ever being addressed.
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  #72  
Old 04-11-2012, 06:26 PM
codinghorror codinghorror is offline
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Quote:
You guys should check out what Casey has done over at Ravelry, a knitting/crocheting/spinning site. While there are some things that I wish I could tweak a bit more, it's a really nifty forum design
Indeed, first time I've heard of their forums so thanks for pointing it out! My wife has had an account there for quite some time so I can log in as her to check it out. Thanks for that!

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Drama would ensue. Drama always ensues. Posters would want to know average karma scores
Quote:
If you must give weights to people, then do it behind the scenes, and let the mods have control over it.
Quote:
This is trying to create an element of competition, and competition divides. It creates a group of have's and have-not's
There's an element of public reputation, and shadow reputation that we don't show you on Stack Exchange. Generally the public reputation is for things that are positive (upvotes, badges, etc) and the shadow reputation is for things that are negative (spam, deleted posts, closed posts, etc). The philosophy here is "accentuate the positive, eliminate the negative".

I'd also note that on some boards, displaying post count and join date, as done here, are considered controversial. So I think it's relative. I don't think we would show those by default in the name of minimalism, but such info should be available on mouse hover or profile click of course. There is a lot of value in showing (but NEVER SORTING OR JUDGING) "citizenship numbers" on profiles, IMO which indicate how much this person has contributed to the community, by a variety of measures. What you read into those numbers is up to you, and the rest of the community.

Quote:
This wouldn't start two different threads, rather, both forums would be a pointer to the same thread, and posting in that thread would bump it in both forums at once in the same way.
This would end very badly in my opinion. What's the incentive not to spam your thread in every possible related forum for the "best" response? There isn't any.

Quote:
Even something simple like sub-threading -- where you can see who replied to who, and potentially hide some hijack or other by burying a sub-thread -- only works if people actually click the right buttons and refrain from making two points in one post.
Flat all the way, for sure. Threading is evil, and no 10 year old board communities that I know of use threading, which is pretty damning. However see next point.

Quote:
Basically, you could click a link on a parent discussion in order to view a list of sub-discussions. That could turn out badly: I don't know.
I think we could be clever when linking quoted replies backward and forward; under a post you could click "show replies" and it'd dynamically pull all the posts that quote-replied to that post under it. This would be strictly an on demand, on-click affair, but this sort of inline "just in time" quote-threading would give you most of the benefits of pure threading without the many, many headaches.

Quote:
If we're redesigning the whole idea of a message board from scratch we may as well be honest about the need for a way to make money.
Definitely; since this will be open source software intended for any use, we want to plan for that as well. The goal is to get it used as many places as possible, so while we're going to be evangelical about sane defaults that bake in the lessons of these 10 year old forum communities, we won't stop you if you want to turn all the knobs (and there will be lots and lots of knobs) to 11, or even negative one. We might advise against it, and provide specific reasoning why, but we won't stop you.

Last edited by codinghorror; 04-11-2012 at 06:27 PM..
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  #73  
Old 04-11-2012, 07:13 PM
codinghorror codinghorror is offline
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Personally, I think comment engines are a lot more ripe for disruption than forum software. Look at the average comment on YouTube, CNN, TechCrunch, etc. Google Wave, Disqus, and Facebook (among others) have all tried addressing this problem, but in my opinion, have failed miserably.
Not sure that's so; Disqus is doing a pretty good job in bringing crowd moderation and highlighting to comments in my opinion. But it's a centrally hosted service, so I have a deep problem with that from a 'free software' perspective. I want a million forum flowers to bloom -- and not become 999,900 abandoned spam weed gardens, too.

Quote:
Reading the other comments, It seems like there are "stages" in the life of a forum. On a new forum, even toddler sized barriers can cause it to fail (ie, having to create an account at all). As the forum grows, moderation becomes more important, and as the forum gets supersized dealing with spam, and completely off topic issues that might derail the board entirely.
Can that be dealt with by software ? Could the product automatically start out in something like 4chan mode, where there are no barriers to entry, and automatically push into making new posting harder ?
Edit to add: I've also found that splitting forums can sometimes cause them both to die; and initially any subforums at all can cause issues. Is there a way to create virtual subforums using tagging or something similar rather than hard dividing lines, allowing things to split naturally ?
Absolutely. The mindless propagation of subforums (er, what bucket does this thread go in? There are only 20/200/2000 posts on the whole forum..) is harmful and something we want to address. In the beginning, your forum will be a single flat simple list, and it should grow subforums only when and as they are necessary.

Quote:
It seems to me like some folks are misinterpreting the intent of the OP. I don't think he's trying to suggest changes to the SDMB, I think he's basically decided that most forum software kind of sucks (which is true), and that a dedicated team with a good plan and the resources and a handle on how web applications are actually built in 2012 could build something better (also true, and these are qualifications the OP has), and trying to get ideas from users of various forums.

Personally, I think it's a good problem to try to solve, although I'm not real sure how you make money at it if that's your goal. Maybe you just like the idea of improving the user experience on forums in general because you hope all the forums you read will upgrade to your software or the software they run will have had the bar raised and will need to come out of the 90's too. Seems alright to me.
The goal is not to make money (though I totally support the idea that forums should be able to make money) but to raise the tide for everyone with better software. Forums are actually at risk of dying out because the software has advanced hardly at all. And that's sad for me, as a guy who loves paragraphs on a page.

Quote:
I don't think vBulletin has a high bar to beat here
If we can't build something that offers an intrinsically better experience than the hideous phpBB and vBulletin status quo, which has been incestuously ctrl+c,ctrl+v'ed non-stop since 1999, then we'd seriously have to be the most incompetent programmers ever born.
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  #74  
Old 04-11-2012, 10:22 PM
Czarcasm Czarcasm is offline
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Maybe this is a bit presumptive of me, codinghorror, but the sum total of your participation on this message board is four posts in the same thread, all of which posted for the purpose of "fixing" it. Might I suggest you find out if we even agree on what our problems are before you sweep in and tell us how to fix them? It might be that what you are offering is something we need, but you really can't know that looking in from the outside.

Just my humble opinion.
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  #75  
Old 04-11-2012, 10:39 PM
BigT BigT is online now
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What I tried to get across earlier is how most forum communities don't want crowd based moderation. Forums that exist today are not run as democracies. I think you might be able to justify the ability to mark something as spam, and then hide it if enough people agree, ala YouTuge, but not full out moderation.

And, BTW, the reason we can show our post count here is because it's 100% against the rules to post just to increase your post count. I find it hard to believe that we would want a karma system but at the same time make it against the rules to try and increase karma. Some communities like karma, some don't. So make it an option to shut it off.

One thing I meant to mention before is that your software needs to be ultra flexible to meet the needs of the various communities. I don't think there is a platonic ideal of the perfect forum software, just software that best fits the various communities. You need a lot of options, while at the same time avoiding that option bloat that will intimidate everyone. The solution I am fond of is the ability include addons. I think that's one reason the clunky vBulletin remained so popular: the ability to hack it to do what you want.

And I think forums aren't dying entirely because of software, but also because they are no longer the only place for socialization. They are dying for the same reason chatrooms died out when instant messenger became available. Places like Facebook allow people to create their own social community, rather than having to try to fit into one that already exists.

Something more than good software is going to be necessary to bring people back. Honestly, I think a good thing would be to try and integrate with Facebook.
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  #76  
Old 04-11-2012, 10:45 PM
BigT BigT is online now
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Finally, let me just say for the last time how much I HATE the points-based gamification, and it's the reason I don't participate in Stack Overflow stuff very often. I've already had an experience there where someone tried to convince me that I was wrong to pick who I did as the best answer. I refuse to actually log in and participate there.

I say the above so maybe you'll get out of this mindset that you've found the perfect solution. I mean, I even hate the idea that the owner and not the community shapes how Stack Overflow is run--I consider that rather fascistic. As I've been telling other gamification people: it is not mind control, and if you are trying to use it as such, you will fail eventually.
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  #77  
Old 04-12-2012, 03:02 AM
codinghorror codinghorror is offline
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It might be that what you are offering is something we need, but you really can't know that looking in from the outside.
I humbly submit that the authors of vBulletin also have zero specific insight into this community, and have probably produced exactly zero posts here, yet they produce software that you use daily. Mostly I'm here to listen to what you have to say, as 10 year old community.

The task of human discussion is fairly universal, although I think there are about a half-dozen thread archetypes that we plan to support (even after the fact, since not everyone knows what a thread "is" until it gets a bunch of posts) with specific, tailored, semi-custom interfaces. Think polls, Q&A, "chat" threads, debates, and so forth.

Last edited by codinghorror; 04-12-2012 at 03:03 AM..
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  #78  
Old 04-12-2012, 04:44 AM
Eutychus Eutychus is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by codinghorror View Post
If we can't build something that offers an intrinsically better experience than the hideous phpBB and vBulletin status quo, which has been incestuously ctrl+c,ctrl+v'ed non-stop since 1999, then we'd seriously have to be the most incompetent programmers ever born.
Why don't you just do it, then?
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  #79  
Old 04-12-2012, 05:13 AM
Jragon Jragon is offline
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The problem I see with the proposed software is it's too feature rich. Features are good, I like features, but only when I'm trying to get stuff done, and only when I can ignore them when I don't like them (for the most part, obviously some features have to be "front page features").

When you have too many in-your-face features on the front-end it becomes overwhelming to the end user. Yes, I'm sure we can point to examples of semi-popular feature-rich products, like GIMP and Photoshop. However, most people really don't use them that much, and those that do tend to really like photo editing and need something a bit more advanced. I don't think the majority of end users are going to feel that posting on a forum is important enough that they should take time to learn how to use a feature-rich user interface.

Now I'm sure it's possible to get it to work well, but it will require being very, very careful to make features step out of the way enough that the average user can pick to learn features based on their own needs, rather than have endless customization of their threads and posts thrown in their face and have to spend time just trying to figure out how to make a simple thread without worrying about whether they need to know what the "anti-alias quantum singular agglutenative neuropeptide determinants" checkbox does. Or even have to worry about why threads in GQ, GD, and MPSIMS look so different.

Last edited by Jragon; 04-12-2012 at 05:15 AM..
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  #80  
Old 04-12-2012, 11:55 AM
codinghorror codinghorror is offline
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Originally Posted by Eutychus View Post
Why don't you just do it, then?
We've already begun! I'm here to listen to your feedback, not necessarily demand that you guys change the way you're doing everything right now.*

* but clearly you should!
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  #81  
Old 04-12-2012, 05:54 PM
spinky spinky is online now
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Originally Posted by Czarcasm View Post
Maybe this is a bit presumptive of me, codinghorror, but the sum total of your participation on this message board is four posts in the same thread, all of which posted for the purpose of "fixing" it. Might I suggest you find out if we even agree on what our problems are before you sweep in and tell us how to fix them? It might be that what you are offering is something we need, but you really can't know that looking in from the outside.

Just my humble opinion.
He's not trying to fix this message board. He's gathering ideas for building a completely new piece of forum software. Don't worry. You'll still be free to avoid any and all change on this board.
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  #82  
Old 04-12-2012, 10:52 PM
BigT BigT is online now
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Originally Posted by ntucker View Post
He's not trying to fix this message board. He's gathering ideas for building a completely new piece of forum software. Don't worry. You'll still be free to avoid any and all change on this board.
I'm not sure why that matters. His point is accurate: he's clearly come in here with ideas he already has, and is disregarding anything that doesn't fit his preexisting narrative. It's kinda frustrating that he comes in here and asks us for help but then only implements the things he's already thought of anyways. Have you not noticed that he only responds to things to say that either that's what he's already doing, or to try to argue people out of their position?

He doesn't know this or any other messageboard he is soliciting for advice. Because of that, it would behoove him to pay attention to what the people who have participated are saying. Czarcasm in my opinion brought up the elephant in the room.

Last edited by BigT; 04-12-2012 at 10:54 PM..
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  #83  
Old 04-12-2012, 11:00 PM
Sister Vigilante Sister Vigilante is offline
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So my part is still getting ignored. Okay. I will permanently login at home and see if it helps.

But I can login to another vB and every single post since I was logged out, was not marked as read as it is here since I didn't actually click into the thread. Randi.org, okay? They're all still bold, since I haven't actually read them. It's only if you have actually clicked it and gone inside. In fact I have to check the date to see how far back it was that I didn't read the "unread post".

Here, I've gotten myself logged out while reading an article posted here but offsite. Another site I got to with vbulletin is worse, they just say there are no new posts if I do the same thing. And then they ignore me completely, letting their members snark on me before removing the thread from sight, if I complain. There is no mod or admin jurisdiction there. Well there are, but their rules are to remove or delete. Not actually to comment.

This isn't my software but I own it on my own site and I know how you can fix it. And I don't appreciate it being ignored for like the 4th time now for this issue, when I know exactly how it can be fixed.
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  #84  
Old 04-13-2012, 10:12 AM
RaftPeople RaftPeople is offline
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Originally Posted by Eutychus View Post
Why don't you just do it, then?
I really don't understand the irrational responses in this thread. (meaning the ones that are irrational, not meaning that all are)

If you read the OP, he is just looking for suggestions based on our experiences that may help him create better forum software.


Responses like this one I quoted sound defensive. About what I can't figure out.

Last edited by RaftPeople; 04-13-2012 at 10:14 AM..
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  #85  
Old 04-13-2012, 02:18 PM
spinky spinky is online now
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Originally Posted by Sister Vigilante View Post
So my part is still getting ignored.
Just a guess, but it might be getting ignored because it's not on-topic.
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  #86  
Old 04-13-2012, 02:54 PM
srzss05 srzss05 is offline
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Originally Posted by ntucker View Post
Just a guess, but it might be getting ignored because it's not on-topic.
It wasn't really ignored either. At least two said it probably wasn't a board problem, but on the client side.
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  #87  
Old 04-13-2012, 05:52 PM
Sister Vigilante Sister Vigilante is offline
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To which I responded that I visit 5 vbulletin boards daily. Only on the board I run am I able to stay logged in until I close my browser. Because I set it that way as an admin. It is a feature of the software that lets admins decide how long we are logged in, if we don't use the "permanent" thing.

On one of them (Randi.org) I can still go back days later and the posts I haven't read, are still marked unread. Here, and all of the other boards (except mine), everything is marked read and removed when you come back, even if you were reading something linked from this very board. And even if you haven't read everything you wanted to read that was formerly marked unread, until you're logged out of course.

It's frustrating, especially since I know how vbulletin works and how to fix it.

It's on topic because I've questioned it many times and no mod would respond (except to say doesn't happen to me), and once, when I came back the next day my post was gone.
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  #88  
Old 04-14-2012, 12:28 AM
codinghorror codinghorror is offline
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So my part is still getting ignored. Okay. I will permanently login at home and see if it helps.
As you yourself noted, it is badly off-topic and a derailment of this thread. I suggest moving it to your own thread.
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  #89  
Old 04-14-2012, 12:37 AM
codinghorror codinghorror is offline
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He doesn't know this or any other messageboard he is soliciting for advice. Because of that, it would behoove him to pay attention to what the people who have participated are saying. Czarcasm in my opinion brought up the elephant in the room.
Well, I am listening, but not all feedback is actionable. If we followed all the feedback, we'd end up with a 27-button mouse. Mostly I'm identifying common patterns in the feedback across multiple 10 year old forum communities.

Speaking of which, one thing I have noticed is that if you don't explicitly respond to every line of every single post then invariably someone is offended that "you didn't listen to me". You'll just have to trust that indeed, I read all the feedback and processed it all, and just because I didn't explicitly respond doesn't mean I do not agree with what you said, or that I'm not listening. It all gets read. It all gets processed. In fact, I typically read these threads multiple times, actually, and come back to them over time for reference.

But let me be frank with you. In general you can only hope to attract the Young Turks who are dissatisfied with the status quo to the new improved things. Anyway, it's not my intent to actually migrate this, or any other established vBulletin/phpBB community because that's not at all realistic -- both for technical and sociological reasons.

I solicited plenty of advice when building Stack Overflow, too. That's now a top 300 US website. Does that mean it works for every single human being on the planet? Of course not.
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  #90  
Old 04-14-2012, 01:34 PM
ultrafilter ultrafilter is offline
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I think a general reputation system is open for abuse, but we do have at least a few legitimate experts on various topics here, and it would be nice to have some way that the community could recognize them.
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  #91  
Old 04-14-2012, 01:56 PM
Czarcasm Czarcasm is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by codinghorror View Post
I solicited plenty of advice when building Stack Overflow, too. That's now a top 300 US website. Does that mean it works for every single human being on the planet? Of course not.
I took a looksee at stackoverflow.com. I'm not seeing much there that would look inviting to the type of people that frequent this message board. Could you maybe do a mock-up of what might work here?
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  #92  
Old 04-14-2012, 03:50 PM
ultrafilter ultrafilter is offline
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Stack Overflow's layout would make a lot of sense for General Questions, but really none of our other forums.
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  #93  
Old 04-14-2012, 09:50 PM
Irishman Irishman is offline
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I don't think he's saying stackoverflow is the way to go here. In fact, it seems like that was his point up front. He's just mentioning it because it is a project where he has had previous success revolutioning some functionality.
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  #94  
Old 04-14-2012, 09:57 PM
Czarcasm Czarcasm is offline
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Originally Posted by Irishman View Post
I don't think he's saying stackoverflow is the way to go here. In fact, it seems like that was his point up front. He's just mentioning it because it is a project where he has had previous success revolutioning some functionality.
So can he point us to a project he has done that is closer to what we may want?
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  #95  
Old 04-14-2012, 10:21 PM
zweisamkeit zweisamkeit is offline
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Originally Posted by Sister Vigilante View Post
To which I responded that I visit 5 vbulletin boards daily. Only on the board I run am I able to stay logged in until I close my browser. Because I set it that way as an admin. It is a feature of the software that lets admins decide how long we are logged in, if we don't use the "permanent" thing.
No one else is having this issue, though. That's probably why people are a bit at your posts.
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  #96  
Old 04-15-2012, 01:34 AM
RaftPeople RaftPeople is offline
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Originally Posted by Czarcasm View Post
So can he point us to a project he has done that is closer to what we may want?
I don't think you are understanding, this is what is going on:

1) CodingHorror wants to create ForumSoftware version 2

2) He asked a bunch of different communities for thoughts and opinions, including the SDMB thinking he might get some good ideas

3) Then he's going to use that info however he pleases and create what he thinks is good forum software (as open source or for sale, I don't know which)


That's all.

That's it.

He is NOT trying to create forum software specifically for the SDMB.
He is NOT claiming he knows what works for our community.
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  #97  
Old 04-15-2012, 01:56 PM
cmyk cmyk is offline
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RE: "just because I didn't explicitly respond doesn't mean I do not agree with what you said, or that I'm not listening. It all gets read. It all gets processed."

This has always been a nagging aspect of MBs for me. Is there an easy system for a user, especially the OP, to mark it as "read" which could serve a few things. A bookmark as to where you left off. And if it included a list of members that affirmed reading your post, you could rate it on something akin to a 1-10 scale of agree/disagree. This data might drive up a reputation in the member's profile, based simply on veracity and content of their posts, over time accrued and averaged; mitigating abuse.
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  #98  
Old 04-15-2012, 06:40 PM
Irishman Irishman is offline
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Originally Posted by Czarcasm View Post
So can he point us to a project he has done that is closer to what we may want?
You want him to show you a project he hasn't done yet?

This is still the information gathering phase. He may be coding, but not to the extent there's anything functional to demo. Nothing that will look like the final product, because he still doesn't know what the final product will be.

He's given some clear examples of things he thinks current MB software does poorly. He's stated a few things that he thinks would improve things. He's asked for feedback on tools and features that we want and why (and we've also given don't wants).

The big question is why this thread is in ATMB rather than IMHO or something.
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  #99  
Old 04-15-2012, 08:08 PM
cerberus cerberus is offline
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Agreed that SDMB-related queries in terms of operations, administrations and member business go in ATMB.

If this thread is about better board software not related to SDMB then the thread really does belong in either GQ or IMHO. Given the opinion/taste nature of the queries and answers, probably IMHO.
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  #100  
Old 04-15-2012, 08:15 PM
RaftPeople RaftPeople is offline
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Originally Posted by cerberus View Post
Agreed that SDMB-related queries in terms of operations, administrations and member business go in ATMB.

If this thread is about better board software not related to SDMB then the thread really does belong in either GQ or IMHO. Given the opinion/taste nature of the queries and answers, probably IMHO.
The thread started in IMHO, and got moved to ATMB (I believe because that mod interpreted the OP as applying to this forum instead of as a general forum software discussion).
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