How Uncatholic is Santorum?

[stpauler]

So at what point does he stray so far away from the teaching that calling him a Catholic is no longer a close to accurate description?

Pope
Pope Benedict XVI and other church leaders said it was the moral responsibility of nations to guarantee access to health care for all of their citizens, regardless of social and economic status or their ability to pay

Santorum
Republican presidential contender Rick Santorum appeared at the Supreme Court on Monday afternoon to declare that as president he would seek to repeal President Obama’s healthcare law, arguing that only the “creator” can grant rights, not the government.


Pope:
Pope Benedict XVI appealed for the success of a UN climate change conference that is opening tomorrow in Durban, South Africa. Speaking to the faithful gathered in St Peter’s Square for the Sunday Angelus prayer, Pope Benedict expressed the hope that “all members of the international community might reach agreement on a responsible, credible response,” to the phenomenon of climate change, which he described as “complex” and “disturbing”.

Santorum:
Republican presidential candidate Rick Santorum said yesterday that voters can trust his judgment on the environment ... and that climate change is baloney.

Pope:
Quoting the late Pope John Paul II, Ravasi said that "evolution can no longer be considered a hypothesis."
Pope Benedict XVI warned last week against fundamentalists' literal interpretations of the Bible.

Santorum:
Rick Santorum: Evolution Is Used To Promote Atheism

[gamerunknown]

What in tarnation is he doing running for President if not to uphold the rights alluded to in the Declaration of Independence - you know, life, liberty, pursuit of happiness...

That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed... That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

I'd say public healthcare is pretty important when it comes to securing safety and happiness.

[Dr. Drake]

Originally Posted by stpauler

So at what point does he stray so far away from the teaching that calling him a Catholic is no longer a close to accurate description?

Since the vast majority of religious people do not live their lives in total lockstep with the official church dogma, I fail to see what this has to do with anything. If you want to call him a hypocrite, there's better ammunition out there. Furthermore, the pope was not speaking ex cathedra in any of those examples, so he can respectfully disagree.

If he's not a Catholic, what is he? He's certainly not Orthodox or Protestant or atheist or agnostic. I think the only point where you can stop calling him a Catholic is where he himself renounces the church. You can call him a bad Catholic if you like, but be careful not to hold him to standards that the rest of the church doesn't follow.

[Sampiro]

There were repeated calls from Catholic bishops (and higher ranking church officials IIRC) to deny communion to John Kerry and there have been for other Catholic politicians who were pro-choice. Have there been any calls to deny Santorum communion yet or is that just something they do for those who would keep abortion legal?

[FriarTed]

Originally Posted by stpauler

So at what point does he stray so far away from the teaching that calling him a Catholic is no longer a close to accurate description?
....

Pope:
Quoting the late Pope John Paul II, Ravasi said that "evolution can no longer be considered a hypothesis."
Pope Benedict XVI warned last week against fundamentalists' literal interpretations of the Bible.

Santorum:
Rick Santorum: Evolution Is Used To Promote Atheism

These don't conflict. One can accept God used Evolution & still bemoan that Evolution is being used to promote atheism. Just like one can accept the Bible & bemoan that it's used to promote bigotry or whatever.

[FriarTed]

Originally Posted by Sampiro

There were repeated calls from Catholic bishops (and higher ranking church officials IIRC) to deny communion to John Kerry and there have been for other Catholic politicians who were pro-choice. Have there been any calls to deny Santorum communion yet or is that just something they do for those who would keep abortion legal?

Abortion is a bigger moral concern in Catholic thought than climate change, publically-funded health care, & evolution. But has any pro-choice Catholic politician in the US ever actually been denied Comunion?

[Steve MB]

Originally Posted by FriarTed

These don't conflict. One can accept God used Evolution & still bemoan that Evolution is being used to promote atheism. Just like one can accept the Bible & bemoan that it's used to promote bigotry or whatever.

That excuse doesn't fly in the context of a politician attempting to sabotage science education -- read the article.

[Steve MB]

Originally Posted by FriarTed

Abortion is a bigger moral concern in Catholic thought than climate change, publically-funded health care, & evolution.

Er, so? The fact that violation of prohibition A is a larger concern than violation of prohibition B may explain less vigorous enforcement of the latter, but not an absence of any sanction whatsoever -- consistent failure to sanction indicates complete lack of concern for B, not mere lower priority.

[Chronos]

When candidates have been denied communion, that's always been a decision made at the level of an individual bishop or pastor. The Church as a whole mostly stays silent on particular candidates, precisely because neither party in the US is really a match to Church teachings.

[John Mace]

Originally Posted by stpauler

So at what point does he stray so far away from the teaching that calling him a Catholic is no longer a close to accurate description?

Which of those are dogma in Catholicism? Hint:

SPOILER:

None.

There are many things to slam Santorum about. Being a bad Catholic is not one of them.

[OldLobsterClaw]

I really don't care what his religion is. He's pushing for a theocracy like in the Middle East and pushing his beliefs on those of us who vehemently disagree. Rational thought seems to be foreign to him.

Whether he's a "good Catholic" or not, promotion of a particular set of religious beliefs has no place in American politics.

[theR]

Originally Posted by John Mace

Which of those are dogma in Catholicism? Hint:

SPOILER:

None.

There are many things to slam Santorum about. Being a bad Catholic is not one of them.

Really? What is the definition of dogma in this case?

What about being pro-death penalty, which he is and the Church is not. He is also pro-"enhanced interrogation", meaning pro-torture, which the Church is also against.

I don't think it actually matters, except insofar as he is constantly portrayed as being in lockstep with his religion. That's fine, but it makes it odd that he is portrayed as being such an adherent to his religion when he is just like anyone. He follows dogma to some degree, but also clearly doesn't in some cases.

[Kolak of Twilo]

I have thought all along Santorum had little appeal to most Catholics. Interestingly it turns out the actual vote results support my thinking. He has lost the Catholic vote in every contest, except Louisiana, by a substantial margin. His strongest, most reliable support has come from evangelical Protestants.

I don't think that makes him "un" Catholic but it certainly puts him outside the mainstream.

Oh - here is the cite.

[BrainGlutton]

OK, Santorum is so UnCatholic . . .

HOW UNCATHOLIC IS HE?!!

He's so UnCatholic that he would eat meat on Fridays during Lent, but his Zen Master made him go vegan! [rimshot]

[Imasquare]

Since I no little of what Catholics believe I don't know if he's a good Catholic or not, but he isn't any sort of Christian.

His whole religious outlook seems to be based on the angriest parts of the old testament while completely ignoring the teachings of Christ.

If you really want a label for him psychopath fits quite well.

[Captain Amazing]

Originally Posted by theR

Really? What is the definition of dogma in this case?

There's nothing that he believes that the Catholic Church says "You're forbidden to believe", and there's nothing that he doesn't believe that the Catholic Church says "You have to believe.", as far as I know. He just believes a lot of stuff the Catholic church thinks is wrong. But there's a difference in the Catholic Church's eyes between "His beliefs are wrong" and "his beliefs are heretical.", and as far as the Pope is concerned, Santorum is just wrong on the listed issues (and, I guess, as far as Santorum is concerned, the Pope is wrong on those issues.)

But there's no rule in Catholicism saying you have to agree with the Pope. You can think the Pope is a damn idiot who believes a lot of stupid things and still be a good Catholic as long as you don't cross the line into actual heresy, and Catholics have a long tradition of disagreeing with the Pope on stuff.

[John Mace]

Originally Posted by theR

Really? What is the definition of dogma in this case?

What about being pro-death penalty, which he is and the Church is not. He is also pro-"enhanced interrogation", meaning pro-torture, which the Church is also against.

I don't think it actually matters, except insofar as he is constantly portrayed as being in lockstep with his religion. That's fine, but it makes it odd that he is portrayed as being such an adherent to his religion when he is just like anyone. He follows dogma to some degree, but also clearly doesn't in some cases.

Can you list the items of dogma he doesn't agree with?

[gamerunknown]

Neither Kerry nor Santorum would be contravening Canon law (at least from my meagre understanding).

Perhaps their positions are contrary to the spirit of it, but the prohibitions listed here apply only to perpetrators. Worth distinguishing between "homicide" and "killing" too: homicide, like murder, is a term more or less defined by the state.

So with that clarified, it's a bit of a "No True Scotsman" to say that someone that fulfills the doctrinal requirements of being a Catholic and professes Catholicism fails at that task.

That said, given that the Church has upheld the excommunication of "Call to Action" members, it may be argued that either of them are schismatic.

[foolsguinea]

Originally Posted by Dr. Drake

If he's not a Catholic, what is he? He's certainly not Orthodox or Protestant or atheist or agnostic. I think the only point where you can stop calling him a Catholic is where he himself renounces the church. You can call him a bad Catholic if you like, but be careful not to hold him to standards that the rest of the church doesn't follow.

I think he is a Protestant, actually. Maybe Irish Catholic. But I grew up around evangelicals, and Santorum sure seems to want to be seen as one of them.

[Dr. Drake]

Originally Posted by foolsguinea

I think he is a Protestant, actually. Maybe Irish Catholic. But I grew up around evangelicals, and Santorum sure seems to want to be seen as one of them.

There is a large Charismatic movement within American Catholicism, who are very close to Evangelicals in their religious behaviour and often political outlook. They're still Catholic, though.

[John Mace]

Originally Posted by foolsguinea

I think he is a Protestant, actually. Maybe Irish Catholic. But I grew up around evangelicals, and Santorum sure seems to want to be seen as one of them.

"Irish Catholic" is not a religion. Catholics in Ireland are Roman Catholics who happen to be ethnic Irish.

[foolsguinea]

Irish Catholics in the USA are an ethnicity. And in any case, I was talking about his religious attitudes. Irish Catholics are stereotypically more "Puritan" in outlook than other Catholics.

[John Mace]

Originally Posted by foolsguinea

Irish Catholics in the USA are an ethnicity.

I'm sure they like to think they are.

And in any case, I was talking about his religious attitudes. Irish Catholics are stereotypically more "Puritan" in outlook than other Catholics.

And blacks are stereotypically lazy. Doesn't make either one of those statements true.

[jayjay]

Santorum is very, very unCatholic, given that it's the result of ejaculation into the anus, which is forbidden by the Church (to both same-sex and mixed-sex couples...it isn't "open to conception").

[Bookkeeper]

Originally Posted by Imasquare

Since I no little of what Catholics believe I don't know if he's a good Catholic or not, but he isn't any sort of Christian.

His whole religious outlook seems to be based on the angriest parts of the old testament while completely ignoring the teachings of Christ.

If you really want a label for him psychopath fits quite well.

Leviticans works well, too.

[Chronos]

Irish Catholics in the USA are an ethnicity.

Irish is an ethnicity, and Catholic is a religion. Saying that someone is Irish Catholic is just stating their ethnicity and religion together. If both of your parents are Irish Catholic and you convert to Episcopalianism, then you're not an Irish Catholic any more (though you are still Irish).