[Mafia game] The Realm of Phere

[Suburban Plankton]

Originally Posted by LightFoot

I dunno what scathach was thinking, but the comment did make me want to place ash marks on choie's face

I think it's a little late for that...and I'm not eve sure choie is Catholic.

[NAF1138]

Hey folks, just about to the point where I can get my head back into the game.

Anyone want to catch me up on what I have missed? I promise to go back and read too, but getting a comprehensive summary would help speed me along.

[Silver Jan]

I said I didn't trust Guiri in this game.

[Silver Jan]

Originally Posted by Suburban Plankton

I think it's a little late for that...and I'm not eve sure choie is Catholic.

Well done, atheists of the world survive, or not!

[MHaye]

Originally Posted by NAF1138

Hey folks, just about to the point where I can get my head back into the game.

Anyone want to catch me up on what I have missed? I promise to go back and read too, but getting a comprehensive summary would help speed me along.

We lynched Astral Rejection. He was an Archer (he changed classes N1, or so he claimed and I have no reason to doubt him.)

Post 1521 was the beginning of the end of Day 2.

Post 1591 gave us Nightfall.

Dawn is about to start.

[oog]

I got invited to a job interview next Tuesday. Wish me luck.

[/oog]

[Silver Jan]

Luck and hope

[Silver Jan]

Tis so quite again, I am going to bed.

[LightFoot]

did you mean it is quite quiet?

[BobArrgh]

Originally Posted by LightFoot

I've met and played with some of them they are nice folks

and they think our 'culture' is wierd

There. I fixed that for you.

[BobArrgh]

MHaye, I hope the job interview goes great for you.

[MHaye]

Originally Posted by Silver Jan

The players voting for Astral after Guiri's vote are

Tanaer
ToeJam
MHaye
Weedy

You missed Choie (1229).

[Askthepizzaguy]

Ok night phase is over, need to calculate results and stuff.

As usual don't wait up.

[Scathach]

Originally Posted by choie

Uh, yeah, I think anyone seeing a smudge in that innocuous comment is doing what my shrink calls "projecting."

Plus, I don't smudge. I'm pretty much a bull in a china shop when it comes to this game, as Normal can attest. When I call someone out, you'll know it.

Lols, yeah, it was half a joke but really, you can't come in and be like "hey, it's quiet. I'll just point out that it's quiet without actually making any analysis myself. But you guys should totally be doing analysis"

[choie]

Originally Posted by Scathach

Lols, yeah, it was half a joke but really, you can't come in and be like "hey, it's quiet. I'll just point out that it's quiet without actually making any analysis myself. But you guys should totally be doing analysis"

Well, I'd been away! I was just disappointed that upon my return I didn't have a lot of juicy gossip and/or accusations to greet me.

[Silver Jan]

Originally Posted by LightFoot

did you mean it is quite quiet?

Errr yep

[Tanaer]

Sorry Choie, I was going to do a big read on you last night but I got home & foolishly set up my computer on my bed and .. crashed into dreamland. Hopefully tomorrow night. It's already 12.30am here & I have class an hour away at 9.

Just so you guys know.. I'm running 12+ hour most days at school (film school, doing screen music), with a project due next week, and two more overlapping ones started. I'm also auditioning to run a choir this week. I've been at school both days this weekend.

I'm reasonably caught up here - it's just having the time to wade through & quote that's stymying me. Mostly I catch up on tapatalk in the bus home.

This triple vote panic is causing us problems. I think we need more of these specialist mages (? I think that's what you are, double voters?) in town to counteract them instead.

Also, if there's any white mages who want physical guarding, PM me.

[LightFoot]

Originally Posted by BobArrgh

There. I fixed that for you.

I typed it the way I meant it
your way reads different than my intent- And I wonder why players don't understand my avatar

[LightFoot]

NETA I don't even have an avatar here... but you get what I meant?

[Silver Jan]

Originally Posted by MHaye

You missed Choie (1229).

Without looking back, I am sure Choie unvoted and went with her feeling rather than stay on a wagon she didn't believe in. So yes, I didn't count her.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Seems my apartment building lost power during a storm last night. Everything is delayed until I get back from work. Yay.

[LightFoot]

Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy

Seems my apartment building lost power during a storm last night. Everything is delayed until I get back from work. Yay.

or not Yeah

[MHaye]

Originally Posted by Silver Jan

Without looking back, I am sure Choie unvoted and went with her feeling rather than stay on a wagon she didn't believe in. So yes, I didn't count her.

But you did count Tanaer, who also unvoted. The treatment of the two is inconsistent.

Choie is one of the flood of voters who followed Guiri; and you skipped over her for what seems to me no good reason.I suggest you do look back, and come back with something better - or at least, better grounds for your opinion.

[choie]

I agree, I should have been on the list, though I appreciate Silver Jan's taking into account my vote change and the reason for it.

Not that you'll buy this, MHaye, but Guiri had literally nothing to do with my placing a vote on Astral. The vote was entirely the result of the interchange between me and Normal Phase. Earlier I said (and felt) that she'd bullied me into it, but fuck that, I'm over 21 and should be responsible for my own decisions.

The overall feeling at the time, pushed by Normal, was that in order to beat the mysterious 3-voting fiend, we had to overwhelmingly vote for one candidate so that Town would lynch whoever we wanted rather than lettting ourselves be outvoted by the aforementioned M3-VF. I said that I didn't want to vote for someone I wasn't getting much of a scum read off of, but again, felt the pressure because supposedly voting Astral was the Right Thing for Town. Hell, even he was saying it. My vote for fubbles was being derided as useless, Why was I persisting with tilting at fubbles' windmills instead of doing what most people insisted was the Right Thing for Town? So I gave up and gave in.

However, when I saw Normal jump off the bandwagon she began, with that "yay, I've got what I wanted, now I can hop off and vote for someone else" post, I realized that one of the chief advocates for Doing the Right Thing for Town was kind of a big ol' hypocrite, and that I'd gone against my feelings for no reason. So I said y'know, fuck this noise, and switched my vote back to where I wanted it in the first place.

It is entirely possible, maybe even likely, that Normal genuinely thought her advocacy of an Astral lynch and subsequent unvoting of him was helping Town, and she just didn't see how damning her comment (parahprase: "woohoo, other people are voting for Astral now, so I get to vote my conscience) was both to her own reputation and what she was claiming was the Right Thing for Town. And in fact it's so blatantly hypocritical and scummy that though I originally was furious with these actions, I almost can't imagine Scum being so incredibly blatant.

On the other hand, maybe the iocane powder really is in front of me after all. WIFOM city, I know.

Anyway, for what it's worth, that was what I am generously calling "my thought process" at the time.

[MHaye]

Originally Posted by choie

I agree, I should have been on the list, though I appreciate Silver Jan's taking into account my vote change and the reason for it.

Not that you'll buy this, MHaye, but Guiri had literally nothing to do with my placing a vote on Astral. The vote was entirely the result of the interchange between me and Normal Phase. Earlier I said (and felt) that she'd bullied me into it, but fuck that, I'm over 21 and should be responsible for my own decisions.

Actually, that sounds fairly reasonable. Your description accords with what I remember.

I do actually agree that, sometimes, Town-aligned players need to lay aside their own deep-seated convictions and consider whether their vote needs to be placed on one or another of the bandwagon leaders - whichever one you consider more likely (or less unlikely in some cases) to be Mafia. The Day 2 situation was potentially the same; Astral had a significant lead, and given that there were two at-the-time unknown secret voters around, plus the possibility that a non-Town player could generate three extra votes, it was possible for a player some way back from the lead to suddenly find themselves lynched, without having a chance to claim or otherwise defend themselves from their accusers.

We now know who the double-voters are, so we can take into account the effects of their powers when calculating how close a vote race is, so that isn't so much of a problem. We could still have a problem if Lord Phere is instructed to vote again; remember the votes are almost certainly placed at the behest of a non-Town power.

Normal's unvote raised my eyebrows as well; her unvote has almost completely wiped out then Townie feeling I was developing about her. I'm not going to blame you for jumping off the Astral wagon after Normal did, even though I think staying on the wagon was probably the right thing.

Assuming my headache lets up (and it's responded to the migraine-killer so I might well be ok) I'll try and review the other votes tonight (tomorrow being given over to interview prep).

See you soon.

[Tanaer]

Wow, Choie, you are really becoming the queen of misdirects in my eyes.. you give this explanation:

Originally Posted by choie

However, when I saw Normal jump off the bandwagon she began, with that "yay, I've got what I wanted, now I can hop off and vote for someone else" post, I realized that one of the chief advocates for Doing the Right Thing for Town was kind of a big ol' hypocrite, and that I'd gone against my feelings for no reason. So I said y'know, fuck this noise, and switched my vote back to where I wanted it in the first place.

It is entirely possible, maybe even likely, that Normal genuinely thought her advocacy of an Astral lynch and subsequent unvoting of him was helping Town, and she just didn't see how damning her comment (parahprase: "woohoo, other people are voting for Astral now, so I get to vote my conscience) was both to her own reputation and what she was claiming was the Right Thing for Town. And in fact it's so blatantly hypocritical and scummy that though I originally was furious with these actions, I almost can't imagine Scum being so incredibly blatant.

On the other hand, maybe the iocane powder really is in front of me after all. WIFOM city, I know.

Anyway, for what it's worth, that was what I am generously calling "my thought process" at the time.

However this is when Astral jumped off the bandwagon.

Originally Posted by Normal Phase

What else is new.

unvote
vote: PetW

And this is you, jumping on it - some time LATER,

Originally Posted by choie

Soooo Normal tells me I'm a crackpot for voting for fubbles, someone with two votes on him, because he's never gonna be lynched. Then she places a vote on PetW. Who has no votes at all. And this isn't a waste of a vote.

Normal exhorts me to vote for someone I don't think is especially scummy over someone I think is. Is that how this game is supposed to work? I admit I don't have the massive amount ofexpertise that Normal does, but I thought we were supposed to vote for people we think are scummy. Not whom other people think are scummy.

Frankly I think that sucks. But whatevs. Since I think Gadarene is town and I'm a bit more neutral on Astral, I guess he's the one for the chop. And I think that sucks too, because I vastly prefer to vote for people on whom I have a much, much stronger feeling. fubbles meets that qualification and Astral doesn't... at best he's only slightly scummish to me, and that's just because of those triplet votes that saved him the other Day. But okay, Normal. You win.

unvote fubbleskag
vote Astral

The above reminds me: again, for vote tallying purposes, PLEASE tell us whom you're unvoting. And place it in red. Since I'm the only one tallying these days, it helps when people remind us where they're votes were before they switch. (Actually that's useful for all of us too.)

Then you interacted heaps for hours, being vocal all the while about how your vote should be elsewhere, but maintaining your vote.

Until finally changing it after you'd been away for another day:

Originally Posted by choie

I'm sorry for not being more vocal today, though I think all my posts last night/this morning should count double. Also I'm having a really weird experience trying to order a gift basket for a friend. After ordering the basket, I discover the florists' number doesn't work, the town's chamber of commerce doesn't answer... very scummy indeed.

Anyway. I'm still suspicious as hell at Normal's behavior at having started the bandwagon Today on Astral, then jumping off, and berating the rest of us for being on it. I agree completely with Astral about this "everything you say will be used against you, no matter which response you give" thing. I ran nto this with her in previous games and it is annoying as hell. BUT she's been town at least once with that same attitude, so as frustrating as it is, it's not a scum tell on her.

However, since the only reason I was voting Astral was basically to be a good little Townie and do as mommy told me to do, only to see mommy do the opposite ("do as I say, not as I do!"), it's time for this kid to go through her rebellious phase.

just breaking this here to say - nice setup for the reframe!

unvote Astral
vote Normal Phase

Not because of her "AHA Gotcha!" posting style no matter what Astral says, but because her bulldozing of the rest of us yesterday seemed aimed at getting Astral lynched and her jumping off the bandwagon seemed aimed at making her look good if/when Astral flips town. Since I've been scolded for voting for fubbles and told there's no way he'll ever get lynched, fine. I'm going back to voting my conscience, though. So as Normal is second on my list of scumminess, she's up at bat.

BTW, I literally have no idea what the votes are right now, and it's time for someone else to do the math, so whoever that someone is, please have at it!

And so people look back at this one and clear you for it. Nice job.

[Tanaer]

Gah. Remember when I said hunting quotes takes too much time ? Now I have to skip breakfast to get to school. Joy.

[Gadarene]

I think this is the longest Night I've ever been a part of.

[BobArrgh]

No joke.

[choie]

Wall of Words alert!

Tanaer, you somehow completely missed the actual quote when Normal first unvoted Astral. The one that puts all this in context. Funny, that.

Here's how it went down, this time the unexpurgated version.

In #1172 I post the vote talley, which shows Astral with five votes: three from AITP and two from Normal and septimus; I have my vote on fubbles. No one has any votes on PetW.

In response, Normal says she doesn't want to reduce the votes on Astral even though her gut is telling her that PetW is scum. She also calls my vote for fubbles worthless.

Originally Posted by Normal Phase

OK, so Astral's really only at an official 2 votes vs 3 for Gadarene, 2 for MHaye, 2 for Weedy and surprisingly all the way down to zero again for PetW. I'm not at all sure what to make of that. Maybe I should look at Weedy's case if I can get focused enough; two PetW voters went there.

I definitely think PetW could still use some pressure, but the only way I can do it is by reducing the votes on Astral, which is blech.

Choie, why are you voting for fubbles? He'll never be lynched today unless Lord Phere does it -- with the possible exception of you, nobody seems to think he's actually scum. Yours and ToeJam's are worthless votes as things stand. Gadarene's too probably and maybe even Lightfoot's.

The person with the most support on him by number of votes placed, has no votes currently. This is not good. I don't know what to do right at the moment.

I respond and explain my position on fubbles in #1177

Silver Jan votes for Astral in #1202

Visorslash says we need a clear lynch, votes for Astral

Visorslash and Normal tag-team on pressuring me to move my vote from fubbles. Here's Normal's response in #1211:

Originally Posted by Normal Phase

You're being way too paranoid. (I've HAD a role akin to the one you attribute to fubbles in a previous Pizza game, and I'm still talking to him. He's not going to win in a single day or even three or four with whatever vague not-town win condition you might think he has.) Just plain "would be willing to sell info to the scum in exchange for non-aggression" would be plenty reason for caution if you're inclined that way, so why so much wild speculation?

And you are just wrong with your reasoning about the fubbles non-bandwagon. It is going nowhere. If a suspected third party that basically no one actually thinks is scum were going to get real support for a lynching, it would have happened by now. It's been almost a full night and a full day that fubbles has been a topic of discussion. It's not going to happen.

I'm not remotely as suspicious of you as some others are as I've seen this sort of bullheadedness from you before as town, but I still think you're wrong. And I'd like you to consider the other bandwagons now and and least evaluate them for the record: MHaye, Gadarene, Astral, Weedy, etc.

Come on, choie, this is just silly. By the numbers alone someone in the non-fubbles lynch "leader" group is likely to be scum. Sit down and put yourself on the record as to who it is.

She goes on to think I'm scummy, and again exhorts me to share whom I think is scummy, even though I've already said I think fubbles is scummy, but that's not good enough because she doesn't think fubbles is scummy. So I've just told her whom I think is scum, but nope, not good enough. Tons of pressure on me to get on the bandwagon, don't waste my vote on someone who has no chance of being voted out, don't vote my instincts, join a bandwagon join a bandwagon join a motherfuckin' bandwagon!

So what happens next? Does Normal stay staunchly on the bandwagon, because dammit, that's what a Townie person should do, and oh, if only choie were as utterly Townie as Normal, because she'll always do what's best for Town and stick on the bandwagon....

FX: RECORD SCRATCH

Originally Posted by Normal Phase

Good, more votes on Astral lets me

unvote
vote: PetW

To keep him on the board.

I'll be around near end of day to move back or to MHaye if needed, I just need to see decision making from those who are or were at "none of the above".

That's #1211, two posts later than her exhortation for me to hop on a bandwagon. Colors bleached, but she screwed up the code in this post, which is why she posted a second time--the post Tanaer chose to quote from, probably because it was context-free, unlike the actually damning post.

I leave for a little bit, come back, discover that after all her, gnarlycharlie and Visorslash's haranguing, Normal has hypocritically switched her vote to PetW. I say basically fuck it, I'll vote for Astral and prove myself a good little townie just like you and Visorslash want me to do.

Originally Posted by choie

Soooo Normal tells me I'm a crackpot for voting for fubbles, someone with two votes on him, because he's never gonna be lynched. Then she places a vote on PetW. Who has no votes at all. And this isn't a waste of a vote.

Normal exhorts me to vote for someone I don't think is especially scummy over someone I think is. Is that how this game is supposed to work? I admit I don't have the massive amount ofexpertise that Normal does, but I thought we were supposed to vote for people we think are scummy. Not whom other people think are scummy.

Frankly I think that sucks. But whatevs. Since I think Gadarene is town and I'm a bit more neutral on Astral, I guess he's the one for the chop. And I think that sucks too, because I vastly prefer to vote for people on whom I have a much, much stronger feeling. fubbles meets that qualification and Astral doesn't... at best he's only slightly scummish to me, and that's just because of those triplet votes that saved him the other Day. But okay, Normal. You win.

unvote fubbleskag
vote Astral

I'm trying to do what Normal and others have been pressuring me to do, even though Normal herself isn't doing it, because they are more experienced and y'know, maybe I'm wrong. Leaves a bitter taste in my mouth but I do as the majority of the posters want me to do.

Normal admits she's a hypocrite but she's still right. ooookay. Meanwhile, Tanaer votes for Astral as well.

#1236: Normal is shocked, shocked that people are now voting for Astral, claiming it's because Guiri voted for him.

#1238, I take offense at this because she was the one who had hopped on the Astral train first (even after the creepy triple-voter voted for him), and she'd bullied me into hopping onto the bandwagon as well. So I give her the scummy scummy scum list she asked me for and still include fubbles in my #1 slot, with her at #2.

Normal claims she's not blamingg Guiri for the Astral votes, it's just odd that everyone's voting for Astral because of Guiri. Totally a different thing!

I go ballistic at this point (I admit i was having a really bad day IRL so I was more emotional than usual).

Originally Posted by choie

Here's what you sound like to me. "I'm not blaming Guiri for the Astral bandwagon. Only I totally am because everyone voted for Astral only 'cause Guiri said so."

The hilarious part of this is that you know the only reason I voted Astral was because YOU, Visorslash and gnarlycharlie basically told me if I don't join a bandwagon I'm not helping town, and I kind of see that, though it goes against the grain to vote someone I'm not at least 75% convinced is scummy, but I do see the pointlessness of going after fubbles while the rest of you have managed to convince everyone else he's harmless.

Holy cow are you rewriting history or what? YOU voted Astral, then when you saw there were more votes on him, you were all "yay, that bandwagon's safe, now I can vote for PetW." Why were you so happy that there were more votes on Astral if you now don't see him as scum?

Fuck this noise. You can't even keep your storyline straight. Astral had better be guilty or I am coming after you like God's own thunder next round.

A day goes by. Astral gives an awesome goodbye speech. I apologize in advance for feeling confused and letting people bullyrag me (still don't know if that's the right term) but I'm torn between voting my conscience and voting the way other alleged townspeople want me to do. Basically I'm a big fat wimp, which I totally cop to.

Then, presumably worried that Astral's extremely townie-sounding goodbye speech might actual change minds, Normal is swift to change her vote again:

Originally Posted by Normal Phase

Switching to someone other than Astral, I mean. I do want Astral lynched over anyone who's close to him now.

unvote
vote: Astral

Not seeing this for nearly an entire day, when I return and spot this (and septimus's also jumping back on the Astral bandwagon he'd been on originally) I can't take it anymore. Post #1411:

Originally Posted by choie

I'm sorry for not being more vocal today, though I think all my posts last night/this morning should count double. Also I'm having a really weird experience trying to order a gift basket for a friend. After ordering the basket, I discover the florists' number doesn't work, the town's chamber of commerce doesn't answer... very scummy indeed.

Anyway. I'm still suspicious as hell at Normal's behavior at having started the bandwagon Today on Astral, then jumping off, and berating the rest of us for being on it. I agree completely with Astral about this "everything you say will be used against you, no matter which response you give" thing. I ran nto this with her in previous games and it is annoying as hell. BUT she's been town at least once with that same attitude, so as frustrating as it is, it's not a scum tell on her.

However, since the only reason I was voting Astral was basically to be a good little Townie and do as mommy told me to do, only to see mommy do the opposite ("do as I say, not as I do!"), it's time for this kid to go through her rebellious phase.

unvote Astral
vote Normal Phase

Not because of her "AHA Gotcha!" posting style no matter what Astral says, but because her bulldozing of the rest of us yesterday seemed aimed at getting Astral lynched and her jumping off the bandwagon seemed aimed at making her look good if/when Astral flips town. Since I've been scolded for voting for fubbles and told there's no way he'll ever get lynched, fine. I'm going back to voting my conscience, though. So as Normal is second on my list of scumminess, she's up at bat.

So, sorry for the Wall of Words, but that's the full history of why I voted fubbles, switched to Astral after all the pressure on three fronts, saw Normal's back/forth bullshit votes once Astral's valedictory speech convinced many of us that yes, he was Town, and decided that I was sick and tired of being pushed into doing something I didn't want, and had never wanted, to do. Hence my unvote of Astral.

As I said, it's certainly possible Normal did all this as a townie, just an incredibly wrongheaded and manipulative one. (Townies can be manipulative too.) But for me it makes a lot more sense if she's scum.

Of course now I'm looking at Tanaer for so obviously cutting out the context of Normal's PetW vote in order to misrepresent my description of how things were going. MHaye remembers it the same way, so it's not just me who can recall how all this went down.

[Visorslash]

*Butts in*

Y'know, if you stopped investing so much emotion into the game, you might actually enjoy it.

*Butts out*

[choie]

I wouldn't play the game if I didn't enjoy it, son. We all enjoy it for different reasons. I like the thrust and parry and roleplaying (though I always wish there were more of that involved). You seem to enjoy it for the chance to be misanthropic. De gustibus.

[Normal Phase]

Well, I really didn't think I was being bullshitty or hypocritical there -- the logic was clear enough in my mind, anyway. PetW had had a substantial bandwagon at one point (that was actually my reason for switching away from him in the first place), and I pointed that out in my big complaint post. I had no reason to believe it might not come again should I try to get it started, and hope to provide more information down the road than just a silly ten person bandwagon on Astral.

And while I appreciate that a townie could read my complaint post and take it as "everybody get on one and only one bandwagon right now or I will bite you dammit", please not that's not actually what I SAID. What I said, and what I actually wanted, was for the non-voters and the people with extraneous votes such as (imo) the ones on fubbleskag, the one on scathach, and any others I'm not thinking of right now, to take a position on someone who WAS a threat to be lynched. Those being, IMO at the time, Astral, MHaye, Weedy, Gadarene and PetW.

I had no expectation that everyone would join the same bandwagon and didn't even want it -- it was my opinion that there was time enough in the day to sort out two or three options, but not seven or eight. I ultimately left the Astral wagon for the exact same reason I had earlier left PetW's: it had just kicked up too damn fast and was threatening to run away with the vote by way too much more than necessary, and I hate that.

Call me a bully if you want, call my methods harmful or anti-town if you feel that way, but at least try to understand where I'm coming from.

[Weedy]

I think choie's tone this game is very different to her past couple. She seems to me to be soft-pushing and smudging a lot of people, which is not something I saw her do before.

Also her posts are much less coherent, and she jumps around a lot.

If I get time, I'll go back and quote to show what I mean.

Her reply to Tanaer is an example of the kind of agitating I mean. "You seems to have missed..." followed by ... "no doubt quoted that one because it's context-free". Town choie seems like she would be thinking about the possibility that Tanaer could have missed a post, or chosen the post with the actual unvote because that's the 'right' post, rather than instantly accusing her of scummy motivations. That's not the best example, because choie might just be OMGUSing as a Townie, but it's far from the only time choie puts the worst spin possible on someone.

[Visorslash]

I think Choie should be lynched when the phase ever changes.

[Weedy]

And yes, it makes me see choie as Scummy, since I didn't actually state that.

[LightFoot]

I finally have some play time this weekend and all my games are full.stop.

[Weedy]

Originally Posted by LightFoot

I finally have some play time this weekend and all my games are full.stop.

You can reread, yo.


What do you think of choie / realitytrip / Red Skeezix?

[LightFoot]

Originally Posted by Weedy

You can reread, yo.



What do you think of choie / realitytrip / Red Skeezix?

reality trip and red have not given much of anything to go on.
choie either put big foot in mouth in night thread or was just frustrated. so until a new day dawns I dont' have much for you there

[Normal Phase]

I don't know, Weedy -- choie's certainly not soft-pushing or smudging me. At least in respect to me she's a dead ringer for her behavior in De'endee, when she refused to believe that my defense of Silver Jan could be town-motivated. I'd really like to see your further comparisons.

[Normal Phase]

Originally Posted by LightFoot

reality trip and red have not given much of anything to go on.
choie either put big foot in mouth in night thread or was just frustrated. so until a new day dawns I dont' have much for you there

RT actually has a decent number of posts. Skeezix made two votes in his short period of being around. Choie's said a lot prior to the night thread. You can do better, surely?

[LightFoot]

Originally Posted by Normal Phase

RT actually has a decent number of posts. Skeezix made two votes in his short period of being around. Choie's said a lot prior to the night thread. You can do better, surely?

nothing poked out at me too much. and it is Night-still- so I'm not as verbose

[choie]

Before we begin, I've been wondering... are we still in the Night phase unitl pizzaguy posts the results? Did Day begin already since Night has been declared over? Or are we in some kind of pre-dawn/eclipse phase where neither light nor dark exist? Sort of like in Ladyhawke?

As an aside ... well, not an aside, I guess a preamble: I know I'm continually apologizing this week, but I really am going through some rough RL times at the moment which I should really keep out of the board, or post on MPSIMS, rather than to take my emotions out on you. I learned some horrifically bad news (on Facebook of all things) and I'm just... one big raw open wound right now. Last week I was dealing with a broken relationship with a client/publisher of mine, and now that that's over with I find myself in the awful position of deciding whether to attend an estranged friend's funeral or not. Not that this excuses earlier game play, but I'm just saying that any over-emotional, frustrated crap I may have slung from last week until today, and probably until this funeral is over, will not be an accurate reflection of me.

Originally Posted by Normal Phase

Well, I really didn't think I was being bullshitty or hypocritical there -- the logic was clear enough in my mind, anyway. PetW had had a substantial bandwagon at one point (that was actually my reason for switching away from him in the first place), and I pointed that out in my big complaint post. I had no reason to believe it might not come again should I try to get it started, and hope to provide more information down the road than just a silly ten person bandwagon on Astral.

And while I appreciate that a townie could read my complaint post and take it as "everybody get on one and only one bandwagon right now or I will bite you dammit", please not that's not actually what I SAID. What I said, and what I actually wanted, was for the non-voters and the people with extraneous votes such as (imo) the ones on fubbleskag, the one on scathach, and any others I'm not thinking of right now, to take a position on someone who WAS a threat to be lynched. Those being, IMO at the time, Astral, MHaye, Weedy, Gadarene and PetW.

I had no expectation that everyone would join the same bandwagon and didn't even want it -- it was my opinion that there was time enough in the day to sort out two or three options, but not seven or eight. I ultimately left the Astral wagon for the exact same reason I had earlier left PetW's: it had just kicked up too damn fast and was threatening to run away with the vote by way too much more than necessary, and I hate that.

Call me a bully if you want, call my methods harmful or anti-town if you feel that way, but at least try to understand where I'm coming from.

This actually does sound fair enough. I don't like being pressured, especially because I continually feel like a child trying to catch up with her class after having missed three crucial weeks of learning algebra. When I feel too much pressure I immediately doubt everything, and suspect others of trying to use my inexperience. I do think you left Astral's wagon a little earlier than you remember... you'd left after Visionslash and Silver Jan joined, but before the whole Guiri / me / [b]someone else I can't remember additions. Discounting the three mystery votes, I don't think the Astral wagon was unstoppable.

But either way, your reasoning above makes sense, looking at it dispassionately for once. (See? I can do it! ) I think there is a clash of playing styles between us, and since you're practically the doyenne of Mafia around here I would assume your style is probably coming from a far more confident place than mine is... if I can be said to have a style. But more on that below.

I do still find that change of votes... really, all your vote changing, because hot damn you did a lot of it yesterDay! ... scummy, and your dead certainty about Astral (particularly after his goodbye speech) really pinged the heck out of me. But the way you put it above, I find your rationale more undersndable; I disagree with it, and did vociferously before Astral flipped (so it's not 20-20 hindsight), but disagreeing doesn't mean we're on different sides, overall. Fellow town members can, and usually do, disagree.

Originally Posted by Weedy

I think choie's tone this game is very different to her past couple. She seems to me to be soft-pushing and smudging a lot of people, which is not something I saw her do before.

Also her posts are much less coherent, and she jumps around a lot.

If I get time, I'll go back and quote to show what I mean.

Her reply to Tanaer is an example of the kind of agitating I mean. "You seems to have missed..." followed by ... "no doubt quoted that one because it's context-free". Town choie seems like she would be thinking about the possibility that Tanaer could have missed a post, or chosen the post with the actual unvote because that's the 'right' post, rather than instantly accusing her of scummy motivations. That's not the best example, because choie might just be OMGUSing as a Townie, but it's far from the only time choie puts the worst spin possible on someone.

Well, firstly, Tanaer was smudging the heck outta me! Smudge met with smudge, seems only fair.

Second, I will cop to many things: gullibility; naivete; long-windedness (and how!); over-emotional... um, what's the noun version of being over-emotional? well, that, whatever it is; being sarcastic and conversely over-self-deprecative; and a crappy player. But I cannot, and will not, let this "uncoherent" accusation stand, madam! Take it back or I will demand satisfaction!

Also I just can't believe I can be pigeonholed as a player after only two games. Especially since those games were sooo diffferent both from each other, and from this one. This one is teetering on the edge of my abilities to understand the mechanics, because there are so many of them to remember and comprehend. I think it's ironic that there are more obscure D&D references in this game than there were in De'endee, for example.

Finally, I'm both frustrated by my inability to really grok the mechanics of the game and yet more willing to participate than I was in the previous two games. The former is already explained; the latter is explained because hey, this is my third game, and I'm feeling a bit more confident (at least in the Mafia mechanics part) than I was in the earlier games. Also, if I learned anything in the other games, it was that being quiet and mousy is just as suspicious as yammering on and being confident about what I'm saying. So why not give it a try for once? I felt like stepping up my style, being more aggressive, because... as I said, why not? Things get uglier but they're certainly interesting this way.

That's enough meta for now I guess.

Originally Posted by Visorslash

I think Choie should be lynched when the phase ever changes.

Well duh, that much is obvious! It'll be a bit of what the Brits call an 'own goal', though--especially for you.

(What's that Shakespeare quote again? Something about a serpent's tooth...)

[Visorslash]

Especially for me? So you find it hard that people can put you down as a style, etc but you can do it for me after one game, that isn't even over yet?

Dream on.

At least I'm not being a troll and I am actually playing the game.

[choie]

Well, you were kind of trolly earlier, you have to admit. But in any event, you don't seem to understand what I meant. Perhaps you don't know King Lear. Or maybe Weedy was right about my coherence after all. Or maybe all of the above.

[Visorslash]

Also I just can't believe I can be pigeonholed as a player after only two games.

It'll be a bit of what the Brits call an 'own goal', though--especially for you.

I was relating these two comments.

I have never read King Lear, I haven't read a lot of Bill's works. I mean, I've read Hamlet, Macbeth, Romeo and Juliet, etc but not Julius Caesar, nor Othello.

[choie]

Originally Posted by Visorslash

I was relating these two comments.

Yep, I figured that was it. But the second half of the second comment had nothing to do with the first comment. Nothing to do with game style. More about game occurances. And that's all I'd better say.

Originally Posted by Visorslash

I have never read King Lear, I haven't read a lot of Bill's works. I mean, I've read Hamlet, Macbeth, Romeo and Juliet, etc but not Julius Caesar, nor Othello.

Actually having read those three plays puts you ahead of many other folks (unfortunately for them)!

[Visorslash]

Originally Posted by choie

Yep, I figured that was it. But the second half of the second comment had nothing to do with the first comment. Nothing to do with game style. More about game occurances. And that's all I'd better say.



Actually having read those three plays puts you ahead of many other folks (unfortunately for them)!

I wouldn't say that is necessarily true. Just because I have read three of his plays, does not put me ahead in any kind of sense of someone who hasn't, I mean, I suppose I have read the plays and said person hasn't. But that person may have found a cure for a disease, or created an important artefact. Judging someone by whether they have read Shakespeare or not is not a very accurate mechanism for judging at all. (This is from the use of the word ahead, by the way).

Anyway, I'll have more to say on game related issues when we actually have a phase change.

[Inner Stickler]

Lear is worth it just for the Bastard monologue.

[choie]

Originally Posted by Visorslash

I wouldn't say that is necessarily true. Just because I have read three of his plays, does not put me ahead in any kind of sense of someone who hasn't, I mean, I suppose I have read the plays and said person hasn't. But that person may have found a cure for a disease, or created an important artefact. Judging someone by whether they have read Shakespeare or not is not a very accurate mechanism for judging at all. (This is from the use of the word ahead, by the way).

Goodness you're literal. But anyway, that's why I said "many" not "all." Having read Shakespeare enriches one's own life; many people don't realize that and think it's just a lot of incomprehensible phrasing and flowery poetry. But there's a great deal about human nature in his texts (including the snippet I referenced, BTW), and the more someone knows about human nature, the better off he or she is.

However, I promise you if I find someone who's cured diabetes or cancer and then learn she's never read a line of Shakespeare, I won't look down on her.

What a bizarre side conversation to emerge from my trying to give Visorslash some in-game advice.

[choie]

Originally Posted by Inner Stickler

Lear is worth it just for the Bastard monologue.

What may this mean.
That thou, dead corse, again, in complete steel,
Revisit'st thus the glimpses of the moon.
Making night hideous ; and we, fools of nature,
So horridly to shake our disposition,
With thoughts beyond the reaches of our souls?
Say, why is this?