[Mafia game] The Realm of Phere

[Normal Phase]

I was speaking in the general sense.

[Mosier]

Originally Posted by ToeJam

Actually. A good Q.

ZoMosier:
1) What would YOU like that we do with you? Poke you with sticks? Put you out of your misery with Magic? Are you a good lil' Zombie or a fucking liar scum zombie who deserves to burn in hell?

2)Can You Vote?

ZoMo (heh!) want braaaains. Eat bad people in day. Not want poking. Maybe try magic to turn back human? Not scum, same game winning - stop bad humans who hurt town.

ZoMo think can vote. No rule saying not.

Maybe bad people list -
Visorslash for want hurt me, and ask other people hurt me
Suburban Plankton for saying he not say something he did and starting vote against me day 1.

[choie]

Is this the No Homers Club, and I'm the designated Homer? Does no one have an answer to why we're assuming Phere gave up a NK, considering he killed Guiri? Seems to me more like scum gave up a NK, assuming they're a distinct group from Phere himself.

Oh good grief. Just writing those last words made me think something (yes, Weedy, this is one where I actually am improvising because I got an idea literally from typing the words above): Is the demon's name a hint to the true nature of the game? As in... "We have nothing to fear but Phere itself"

Maybe the theory that there's no distinct gang of scum is correct? Or if there is a scum team, maybe Phere is more dangerous than they are.

Or, and this is possibly really dumb, but could it be that the only person behind Phere, the true traitor in the game, is our moderator himself? I mean think about it: he's not telling us a thing that's meaningful about people's roles when they die. Good, Evil, they're supposedly equally likely to be Town.

I suddenly feel like we're in the Matrix. Maybe we need to break our programming and realize that the person who created this "reality" is actually the true Big Bad? We need to kill the less important scum folks lurking around, but in the end we have to fight Phere, aka pizzaguy, himself?

Or is this too weird even for a pizzagame?

[BobArrgh]

I'm still catching up ... currently at post #1956.

For what it's worth, here is what PizzaMod had to say about editing posts in the signup thread:

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...&postcount=296

[Normal Phase]

Too weird, choie. He's said just hunt scum and all would be well -- as much as a bastard as he can be I doubt he'd subvert that.

[LightFoot]

Originally Posted by Normal Phase

Too weird, choie. He's said just hunt scum and all would be well -- as much as a bastard as he can be I doubt he'd subvert that.

I have the same thought process.

[choie]

Originally Posted by Normal Phase

Too weird, choie. He's said just hunt scum and all would be well -- as much as a bastard as he can be I doubt he'd subvert that.

Far as I'm concerned nothing's beyond him. But seriously, others are opining that there are no scum at all, just one PFK, the traitor. Do you think they're as off-base? I don't think my idea is any weirder than that theory, which also assumes that pizza was lying about "just hunt scum."

[Tanaer]

Originally Posted by choie

Is this the No Homers Club, and I'm the designated Homer? Does no one have an answer to why we're assuming Phere gave up a NK, considering he killed Guiri? Seems to me more like scum gave up a NK, assuming they're a distinct group from Phere himself.

Oh good grief. Just writing those last words made me think something (yes, Weedy, this is one where I actually am improvising because I got an idea literally from typing the words above): Is the demon's name a hint to the true nature of the game? As in... "We have nothing to fear but Phere itself"

Maybe the theory that there's no distinct gang of scum is correct? Or if there is a scum team, maybe Phere is more dangerous than they are.

Or, and this is possibly really dumb, but could it be that the only person behind Phere, the true traitor in the game, is our moderator himself? I mean think about it: he's not telling us a thing that's meaningful about people's roles when they die. Good, Evil, they're supposedly equally likely to be Town.

I suddenly feel like we're in the Matrix. Maybe we need to break our programming and realize that the person who created this "reality" is actually the true Big Bad? We need to kill the less important scum folks lurking around, but in the end we have to fight Phere, aka pizzaguy, himself?

Or is this too weird even for a pizzagame?

Choie, I'm pretty sure that Phere is controlled by the Summoner, or Summoner & his coven/compatriots. [ATPG was pretty clear that he didn't have a real role in the game. ] There's plenty to be confused about (or speculate about, which is much more fun than confusion) but I don't think that's one of them. But, yes, I have noted the name too, and have speculated privately (e.g., that we are imprisoned in our heads, for all the good that does us practically).

So, yes, it appears scum gave up a night kill and created a zombie.

My fears (should that be Pheres) about zombies remain, although I admit they're pretty much just that given that we don't know a lot. We don't really seem to know a lot about anything! I was hoping for a lynch because I'm pretty sure I can't defeat a zombie on my own, and a lynch would. But I accept that's not the feel of the town right now, and I can't see that changing before we have night info.

So I will unvote Mosier. First let me make the initial one effective:
vote Mosier because I forgot to bold it in the original post (thank you kind someone for pointing that out)
and
unvote Mosier

Also while I'm dealing with votes. I believe Astral was raised, not zombified, and agree that it sucks that he doesn't have any exciting thing his aunt gave him that he doesn't know what it is anymore. So,

pendant Astral Rejection

[LightFoot]

OOG
* high five to Tanaer
I've been thinking of slipping a a reference to THGTTG since we first got things we don't know what does. ( but I remembered it as mother, not aunt?)

[choie]

I will say this, One of the many, many things I'm not grokking about this game is why so many people are voting/unvoting the same person in the same post.

Originally Posted by Tanaer

Also while I'm dealing with votes. I believe Astral was raised, not zombified, and agree that it sucks that he doesn't have any exciting thing his aunt gave him that he doesn't know what it is anymore.

Okay. There's no way Tanaer is scum. I will never believe anyone is scum who quotes the HHGG Infocom game.

And to show my solidarity for Infocom geeks everywhere:

vote pendant to Astral Rejection

[Weedy]

I don't think that there is only one Scum. I'm not sure of the role that the traitor plays in the Scum team, whether he is a godfather type in a multi-person Scum team, or a single SK type separate from the Scum team. Or whatever other crazy stuff we could dream up. But I think there is more than one Scum. I don't know how the demon's powers fit into this.

choie, I assumed the other NK was angelled, but now that people are saying the demon may have sacrificed it in order to bring back Mosier, that could make sense too.

[choie]

Originally Posted by Weedy

choie, I assumed the other NK was angelled, but now that people are saying the demon may have sacrificed it in order to bring back Mosier, that could make sense too.

"Angelled"?

But the demon couldn't have sacrificed his NK -- it's explicitly mentioned that Phere killed Guiri! Unless you're assuming that the scum team use Phere to kill someone, and the Phere also kills someone on his own?

Okay, next dumbass theory from me. The unclaimed attacks on people (where the color doesn't say that Phere is the one behind the attack) -- are they Scum attacks? And unlike Phere, they have to get past people's hp in order to make a kill? That might explain why there was only one NK, assuming Scum aren't having luck finding people with low enough hp.

[choie]

I should've said "are some of those unattributed attacks Scum attacks." We can attack too.

[Weedy]

Originally Posted by choie

"Angelled"?

But the demon couldn't have sacrificed his NK -- it's explicitly mentioned that Phere killed Guiri! Unless you're assuming that the scum team use Phere to kill someone, and the Phere also kills someone on his own?

Okay, next dumbass theory from me. The unclaimed attacks on people (where the color doesn't say that Phere is the one behind the attack) -- are they Scum attacks? And unlike Phere, they have to get past people's hp in order to make a kill? That might explain why there was only one NK, assuming Scum aren't having luck finding people with low enough hp.

Angelled - protected, blocked by a pro-Town power


I could be confused here, but I thought Phere killed two people on Night One, one with a magical attack, and one with physical.

I thought the unclaimed attacks were player attacks. That's the attacks at End of Day, you mean?

[Weedy]

Originally Posted by Gadarene

Agree with all of this.

Gad, more reads, please.

[choie]

Originally Posted by Weedy

I could be confused here, but I thought Phere killed two people on Night One, one with a magical attack, and one with physical.

I thought the unclaimed attacks were player attacks. That's the attacks at End of Day, you mean?

Ah, thanks for the definition of Angelled; never heard that one before.

Oh crapples, I've forgotten that attacks happen during the Day, not at Night. This game is really complex; I'm just not used to so many actions both Day and Night.

Buuut, okay, though we know that those attacks are players, we don't know that they're Town players. Could they be intended to lower hp in preparation for a NK?

Basically either there's no scum and Phere is doing all the kills on orders from the traitor (but this goes against the "just hunt scum and you'll be fine" comment by ATPG), or there are two designated kills, one from Phere/traitor, and one by scum -- or at least facillitated by scum.

Am I making any sense whatsoever? I'm just trying to reconcile the fact that Normal and others staunchly believe there must be scum because ATPG said there are scum to be hunted, but we're only seeing Phere doing the kills, which are allegedly at the instigation of a Traitor. So what are scum doing if not killing or attacking?

I guess the way to do that is if the "traitor" is really the Godfather role, as someone above suggested, and he or she is the one who places the order that Phere delivers. Right? Wrong?

[BobArrgh]

I said a while ago I thought there was a lower number of Scum than would be normal for a game this size. I said at the time that I believed there were 3 Scum, but that was based on the triple votes. I'm not sure I buy the theory that there is only 1 Scum, but I could be persuaded.

choie, your "We have nothing to fear but Phere itself" is extremely interesting. I think that it would be a really horrible twist for an already complicated game, but it does bear considering. That would lead us back to someone's (possibly Gadarene?) suggestions that we all attack Phere.

Visorslash, unless I have missed something, you have been asked several times if you are the double-voter. Are you ignoring the question or refusing to answer?

Regarding ZoMosier, it seems like he may be operating under some sort of post restriction. Hmmm. Interesting.

When I suggested that the triple voter might be someone who is absolutely silent in the game, people were all kinds of quick to point out that post restrictions are generally considered bad form and all that. But now, hey, whaddaya know? Looks like a post restriction.

[BobArrgh]

Originally Posted by choie

Buuut, okay, though we know that those attacks are players, we don't know that they're Town players.

I know for a fact that at least one of the attackers on D2 was a Townie.

Also, count me in the group that believes there are Scum to be hunted because PizzaMod said that we could ignore the DnD elements and just hunt Scum.

If we went through this whole complex game and there were no Scum, then I think there would probably be a sudden rise in inexplicable beatings of anyone associated with the pizza industry in Orlando. Kind of a "Murder on the Orient Express" kind of thing.

[Weedy]

Originally Posted by choie

Ah, thanks for the definition of Angelled; never heard that one before.

Oh crapples, I've forgotten that attacks happen during the Day, not at Night. This game is really complex; I'm just not used to so many actions both Day and Night.

Buuut, okay, though we know that those attacks are players, we don't know that they're Town players. Could they be intended to lower hp in preparation for a NK?

Basically either there's no scum and Phere is doing all the kills on orders from the traitor (but this goes against the "just hunt scum and you'll be fine" comment by ATPG), or there are two designated kills, one from Phere/traitor, and one by scum -- or at least facillitated by scum.

Am I making any sense whatsoever? I'm just trying to reconcile the fact that Normal and others staunchly believe there must be scum because ATPG said there are scum to be hunted, but we're only seeing Phere doing the kills, which are allegedly at the instigation of a Traitor. So what are scum doing if not killing or attacking?

I guess the way to do that is if the "traitor" is really the Godfather role, as someone above suggested, and he or she is the one who places the order that Phere delivers. Right? Wrong?

I think 'angels' are called 'docs' here, but saying someone was docced didn't sound right!

These are my base assumptions, which are pulled completely out of my arse:
There is a Scum team of 3-7 Scum (I think 4-5). The traitor is a godfather and investigates as Town. The Scum team control the Demon's actions, or to put it another way, the Demon is the colour/in-game description of the Scum team's actions. They discuss amongst themselves and send in orders, according to their abilites: triple vote Astral, NK Guiri, or whatever, and the Demon acts it out.

To confound this:
a) ATPG balances games very differently to what I'm used to, and has a lot of creative mechanics twists that are hard to guess at.

b) The Scum team described above seems over-powered to me, since they practically control the lynch, and have two NKs as well.

So my assumptions are wrong, but I don't know where.

I think all players can attack and defend, and possibly do other stuff, as Day actions. This includes Scum. I don't think HP matters for the Scum NK, or a vig kill or anything like that. Some people might attack or defend or whatever as Night actions, and hit points may come into play there.


So that's a lot of assumptions, and could be wrong on every point, but that's the way I'm thinking at the moment.

[Gadarene]

Originally Posted by choie

Is this the No Homers Club, and I'm the designated Homer? Does no one have an answer to why we're assuming Phere gave up a NK, considering he killed Guiri? Seems to me more like scum gave up a NK, assuming they're a distinct group from Phere himself.

Oh good grief. Just writing those last words made me think something (yes, Weedy, this is one where I actually am improvising because I got an idea literally from typing the words above): Is the demon's name a hint to the true nature of the game? As in... "We have nothing to fear but Phere itself"

Maybe the theory that there's no distinct gang of scum is correct? Or if there is a scum team, maybe Phere is more dangerous than they are.

Or, and this is possibly really dumb, but could it be that the only person behind Phere, the true traitor in the game, is our moderator himself? I mean think about it: he's not telling us a thing that's meaningful about people's roles when they die. Good, Evil, they're supposedly equally likely to be Town.

I suddenly feel like we're in the Matrix. Maybe we need to break our programming and realize that the person who created this "reality" is actually the true Big Bad? We need to kill the less important scum folks lurking around, but in the end we have to fight Phere, aka pizzaguy, himself?

Or is this too weird even for a pizzagame?

I attacked Phere last night for some of these reasons. On the other hand, Pizza did emphasize that this could be played just like a normal Mafia game, which presumably means with Scum and everything, so I have no idea.

[Gadarene]

Originally Posted by Weedy

Gad, more reads, please.

I've been lax in my read-giving. I probably won't be giving many reads tonight, but I'll try to do better as of tomorrow.

I like the inconsistencies that were pointed out about BobArrgh's post about me, though.

[Visorslash]

@ People asking if I'm a double voter

I already told you all earlier. Go back and read.

@ Toejam or that guy that said something about absolutes.

In the end it comes down to one thing- if you think of absolutes, you WILL get burned.
If you want my personal Mafia Playing Opinion:
Only Sith deal in Absolutes. Scum will do anything and everything that isn't expected of them or assumed to be that "scum would never do that" and use that to their advantage.

I never said that all people who did it were scum, I said that it was a scum tactic, I probably should've added the (my) to it. Because it is, and I don't trust it. I find it fair grounds to lynch you for it. That's my 2 cents, and take it or leave it, I don't particularly care.

[Gadarene]

Originally Posted by Weedy

I think 'angels' are called 'docs' here, but saying someone was docced didn't sound right!

These are my base assumptions, which are pulled completely out of my arse:
There is a Scum team of 3-7 Scum (I think 4-5). The traitor is a godfather and investigates as Town. The Scum team control the Demon's actions, or to put it another way, the Demon is the colour/in-game description of the Scum team's actions. They discuss amongst themselves and send in orders, according to their abilites: triple vote Astral, NK Guiri, or whatever, and the Demon acts it out.

To confound this:
a) ATPG balances games very differently to what I'm used to, and has a lot of creative mechanics twists that are hard to guess at.

b) The Scum team described above seems over-powered to me, since they practically control the lynch, and have two NKs as well.

So my assumptions are wrong, but I don't know where.

I think all players can attack and defend, and possibly do other stuff, as Day actions. This includes Scum. I don't think HP matters for the Scum NK, or a vig kill or anything like that. Some people might attack or defend or whatever as Night actions, and hit points may come into play there.


So that's a lot of assumptions, and could be wrong on every point, but that's the way I'm thinking at the moment.

I like all of this. I don't think you're likely to be Scum any more. Toneread.

[Visorslash]

If we have off-board players who are scum, they might play with your "absolute" view points and may be more simpler minded and foolish.

You're wrong there.

[ToeJam]

Originally Posted by Visorslash

You're wrong there.

Oh ok. My bad.
Here's your two cents back.

[LightFoot]

Originally Posted by Weedy

I think 'angels' are called 'docs' here, but saying someone was docced didn't sound right!

These are my base assumptions, which are pulled completely out of my arse:
There is a Scum team of 3-7 Scum (I think 4-5). The traitor is a godfather and investigates as Town. The Scum team control the Demon's actions, or to put it another way, the Demon is the colour/in-game description of the Scum team's actions. They discuss amongst themselves and send in orders, according to their abilites: triple vote Astral, NK Guiri, or whatever, and the Demon acts it out.

To confound this:
a) ATPG balances games very differently to what I'm used to, and has a lot of creative mechanics twists that are hard to guess at.

b) The Scum team described above seems over-powered to me, since they practically control the lynch, and have two NKs as well.

So my assumptions are wrong, but I don't know where.

I think all players can attack and defend, and possibly do other stuff, as Day actions. This includes Scum. I don't think HP matters for the Scum NK, or a vig kill or anything like that. Some people might attack or defend or whatever as Night actions, and hit points may come into play there.


So that's a lot of assumptions, and could be wrong on every point, but that's the way I'm thinking at the moment.

you've got Town points for this post ( not that I have a bucket of them = and when I catch up it will probably have beeen said better)

[LightFoot]

Originally Posted by Visorslash

@ People asking if I'm a double voter

I already told you all earlier. Go back and read.

@ Toejam or that guy that said something about absolutes.



I never said that all people who did it were scum, I said that it was a scum tactic, I probably should've added the (my) to it. Because it is, and I don't trust it. I find it fair grounds to lynch you for it. That's my 2 cents, and take it or leave it, I don't particularly care.

the response to the double vote is a cop- out. I did not see where you addressed it.

[LightFoot]

Originally Posted by Visorslash

You're wrong there.

Who are you quoting here, please
Because the "off-boarders" comment torques my tennis shoes. And I want to throw a rock at them.

[Visorslash]

I already said I have a double vote.

And I was quoting ToeJam.

[gnarlycharlie]

Originally Posted by Weedy

If we have a one person Scum team, then this isn't really a Mafia game. Which I am willing to believe is the case, but how on earth are we supposed to catch a single Scum? What kind of traces would they leave in their posts, what kind of strategy would they have?

If there is a multi-person 'neutral' team with an anti-Town wincon, then they are the Scum team, and the 'lone Scum' is a PFK.

of course not. haven't you ever seen a game with one scum? that's the benefit i get from playing in several boards. it keeps your mind open. i've been in games where private communication is not only allowed, it is encouraged. in fact if you don't you're considered suspicious. i've seen games that started with one scum, OMGUS is not taboo, players are encouraged to vote for a wagon, there is pot stirring and vote loading. there isn't one correct way to play mafia nor one correct setup of mafia.

Originally Posted by LightFoot

And I took a look at gnarly charlie
D1 contributions, - I’ve included the link since I didn’t quote the whole post/every post. The bits that got me are the ones I included here.
Speculation on number of scum
Doesn’t like the votes on Visorslash
Posts player gender list
Posts 3 methods to contact him privately
http://cites D1 votes being usually ... Votes mosier.
N1+ D2
the AWESOME post at the beginning of Night 1
I still read that as a wrong board post
But he excused it away here

wonders if there could be one Scum.
fubbles could be neutral or 3rd party
supports private messaging among players
his PIS theory
States that a vig may have been responsible for one of the kills
unvotes PetW ( for sounding honest) and reminds us that story and mahaloth have access issues
votes Weedy sounds self protective
the one Scum theorie again.
fubbles won’t be lynched anytime soon. Calls choie’s vote a waste
notes landslide on Astral, asks if Astral has claimed. Does not think we should be attacking Lord Phere

back pedals on what I read as a call to vote a wagon @ choie’s vote.
Well, yes loss of hit points are publicly posted.
The last bit is where he was told what Astral had claimed.

D3

Not sure how to read this?

SPOILER:

Again with choie and the D1 vote.
Apparently missed believerer’s explanation about joining us late.
Questions Mosier.




This is the third mention of “ only one Scum” What is charlie trying to accomplish with that?
Remember D1 when he speculated 5 or 6?

I did this for me, and since I went to the trouble I'm sharing it here.
I kept coming back to the one Scum theory and decided to peek harder.

peek all you want. what is wrong with speculation about the number of scum? you can say that the way i did it was scummy or suspicious but just speculating? you really think differently. perhaps the only one harder to parse is meeko. i speculated more scum because it was still D1. after D1, based on the powers and a review of the color, i felt differently.

Originally Posted by LightFoot

Separate post for possibly clarity

RE: gnarly charlie

Multiple runs at a theory that is not holding any water.

Multiple ‘dings’ at choie for the “ vote that’s not going to kill anyone ”

Apparent backpedalling and saying “I didn’t tell you to vote a wagon”

Now, combine this with the “ awesome” post N1

And his eagerness to share all his PrivateMessage contact information to all. D1

It just smells funny to me.
Vote gnarly charlie

i don't think there's been a game where you haven't voted for me. how many times have you been wrong? by this time i'd thought you'd have a better feel for my game, especially my town one. fortunately for you, many of us, including me, have been able to control our urges to vote you for your play because we've seen it before.

to answer your arguments:
1. nothing wrong with speculating. players do it all the time. how do you know they don't hold water? you mean i'm wrong on both 5 to 7 and 1? and you know this how?

2. i already explained that. would you care to argue that her vote on fubbles was useful.

3. i didn't backpedal. i DIDN'T tell her to vote a wagon. quote the post that i did. you're just twisting my words. i exhorted her to put a vote towards someone who might actually be lynched.

4. the color WAS awesome. anytime a mod puts that much effort to entertain us, it deserves acknowledgment. i bet you thought it was great too but were too chicken to say so because it might seem like gloating or whatever suspicious crap you can call it.

5. eager, sure. ever played with private communication allowed between all players? no? i thought so. if you haven't and haven't tried in this game, you'll never understand. you'll just be in among those players who think it's suspicious without actually being able to say why.

even if i believe OMGUS votes are okay, i won't do it now. you've been your usual townie playstyle.

[ToeJam]

Originally Posted by LightFoot

Who are you quoting here, please
Because the "off-boarders" comment torques my tennis shoes. And I want to throw a rock at them.

I'm sure before this game is up, you'll want to throw plenty more rocks at me- and plenty of them probably for reasons that have nothing to do with this game.

[Silver Jan]

If there was only one scum at the start of the game, why would they recruit a player that has already been lynched, as I said before, this would just be silly. If scum can recruit players then surely they would pick someone that most players believe are Town. I have only ever been recruited once and it wasn’t an obligatory recruitment, I could have declined but then I would have been killed at Dawn (all the freemasons could be recruited and they all went for it). If that is the case here and someone has been recruited that could, perhaps, explain why there was only one NK instead of two as there was on N1. Scum could have recruited instead of killing.

It does seem plausible that the traitor is using Lord Phere for his/her kills.
My most likely Townie list just seems to get longer,

Gaderene
Normal Phase
Astral Projection
Choie
Weedy

I would be quite happy to lynch a lurker at the moment, my reason for this is that although Pizzamod can kill them off and they are Town then we could possibly have 2 mislynches in one Day. I would rather be in control of who was lynched and not just leave it up to the Mod. I know that we could attack such a player but we haven’t managed to kill anyone that way yet and unless we reach some sort of consensus on who to attack, it’s not likely to succeed.

[Weedy]

Originally Posted by gnarlycharlie

of course not. haven't you ever seen a game with one scum? that's the benefit i get from playing in several boards. it keeps your mind open. i've been in games where private communication is not only allowed, it is encouraged. in fact if you don't you're considered suspicious. i've seen games that started with one scum, OMGUS is not taboo, players are encouraged to vote for a wagon, there is pot stirring and vote loading. there isn't one correct way to play mafia nor one correct setup of mafia.

I didn't mean to say it wasn't correct, but I would have to change the way I thought about the game a lot. Scum have hardly any more information than Town, there is no one to protect, no one to bus. I have no idea how you would find a lone Scum. What kind of things do you look for?

[MHaye]

I'd be interested in engaging in scholarly discussion with other Mages about the options they have for progression beyond the first class change. Please PM me if you can contribute.

Many thanks.

Now back to picking out a vote target - although I need to get back to jobhunting later.

[Normal Phase]

I'd like to lynch one of the lower-posting players today, I think.

Ignoring people like Mahaloth and lilflower unless they turn up again, the least number of posts is Storyteller. (Not an edit -- actually I think Believerer might have fewer, will do him next.)

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...7#post14937137 -- game class and game alignment are distinct things.

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...2#post14999562 -- is back, not sure if still alive

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...5#post14999695 -- skimmed to catch up; asks if it's known what pendants do, whether we actually know anything about death reveals; votes to avoid modkill

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...5#post14999695 --
questions Visor about need to kill off Mosier

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...1#post15001671 --
really interested in Visor's thought process on why a tactical difference of opinion merits a lynch

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...1#post15001681 --
believes fubbles must be non-town given his mercenary offer

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...1#post15001681 --
asks him outright whether he is

(As an aside, "we're non-judgmental" cracks me up. I tried that tack, Story, didn't work. No third parties want to talk to me! Silly beasties. )

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...0#post15003050 --
giving fubbles a hard time about trying to claim townie-hood while disavowing any need to actually act like one

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...0#post15003070 --
wants people who voted Mosier the first time and aren't doing so now to justify why not

This is not actually a bad topic to push on despite my own opinions. Besides me, Mosier's voters were Lightfoot, SP, and gnarlycharlie.

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...9#post15003289 -- not comfortable putting a ton of stock in the color

Questions for Storyteller:
-- Visor responded to your challenge of his vote on ToeJam. Comments?
-- What do you actually mean by saying that fubbleskag has to negotiate?

On color: Pizza's color does mean something, always. The trick -- especially in a game where he's promised to be a bit of a bastard -- is to determine what. But if any townie expects me to believe that they are able to control Lord Phere to do stuff, well it's pretty much getting to the point where I'm going to expect them to claim it. Because right now we have the following list of what Lord Phere has done:

Day One -- placed three votes late in the day resulting in the lynch of new-guy Mosier over old hands Gadarene (top vote getter) and Astral Rejection (second place). Attacked ToeJam to the tune of 50 hp, the only time Lord Phere has been seen attacking someone during the day and the only time such an attack has not been fatal.

Night One -- killed glee and Inner Stickler, one physically and one by magic

Day Two -- placed a triple vote on Guiri early in the day, later changed that to Astral, still later retracted the triple votes and did not replace them. No attacks.

Night Two -- killed Guiri (physically IIRC) and resurrected Mosier


I don't see the triple vote or the deaths of Inner Stickler or Guiri as plausible to attribute to a town player at all. The low-power attack on ToeJam, maybe. The other two somewhere in the middle, but I still have issues.

And people should know that having two scum kills per night (as in night one, and hypothesizing the resurrection replaced the second kill last night) is very common where Pizza comes from, though it does suggest a smaller and highly powered scum team overall.

[Normal Phase]

I just erased half my next post. Grrr.

[MHaye]

Originally Posted by Believerer

On a completely different note, who deserves the pendant and why?

I do, of course.

Pendant: MHaye

I don't see any reason yet why other players should have it (especially since there's a limit on items in inventory, so anyone voting an item to themselves is implicitly claiming to have less stuff than the maximum.)

Originally Posted by Normal Phase

If anyone's got any more resurrections they should strongly consider using it on Guiri. He's got no reason to hide his light under a bushel anymore; I bet he'd kick some scum ass.

I second this.

Guiri is the only player I know can contribute to the development of magical knowledge - but, being dead, I can't talk to him. Unless someone has Speak with Dead available and would cast it on him?

Originally Posted by Normal Phase

On color: Pizza's color does mean something, always. The trick -- especially in a game where he's promised to be a bit of a bastard -- is to determine what. But if any townie expects me to believe that they are able to control Lord Phere to do stuff, well it's pretty much getting to the point where I'm going to expect them to claim it. Because right now we have the following list of what Lord Phere has done:

Day One -- placed three votes late in the day resulting in the lynch of new-guy Mosier over old hands Gadarene (top vote getter) and Astral Rejection (second place). Attacked ToeJam to the tune of 50 hp, the only time Lord Phere has been seen attacking someone during the day and the only time such an attack has not been fatal.

Night One -- killed glee and Inner Stickler, one physically and one by magic

Day Two -- placed a triple vote on Guiri early in the day, later changed that to Astral, still later retracted the triple votes and did not replace them. No attacks.

Night Two -- killed Guiri (physically IIRC) and resurrected Mosier

I don't see the triple vote or the deaths of Inner Stickler or Guiri as plausible to attribute to a town player at all. The low-power attack on ToeJam, maybe. The other two somewhere in the middle, but I still have issues.

I agree with this analysis. Any actions taken by Lord Phere in the game are dictated by players. The actions Phere takes are almost universally anti-Town (except where he executes the lynched player; that's neutral in my eyes).

And people should know that having two scum kills per night (as in night one, and hypothesizing the resurrection replaced the second kill last night) is very common where Pizza comes from, though it does suggest a smaller and highly powered scum team overall.

I remind you that, in a Clue Mafia on Giraffe, you were a second Mafia kill - something I'm still uncomfortable with as I feel giving the Mafia two kills per Night is a little overpowered.)

[Normal Phase]

Believer's actually at 14 posts, so Red Skeezix is next after all.

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...0#post14961130 -- crap, forgot game started, why did I lose 60 hp, because I didn't vote?

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...2#post14960912 -- doesn't like a post by PetW ("screams scum") for encouraging townies to vote together and attack Lord Phere; plus a too-easy switch to Gadarene at the end. Votes PetW.

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...0#post14961130 -- snark at me

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...4#post14961214 -- multiple responses to others' posts.
To Inner: doesn't have the information to account for the atypical 60 hp damage. Denies lurking as in following along but not posting; he would have voted then.
To Lightfoot "blanket smudge much?" for saying the pool of people not posting much at night will include scum.
To choie: "bite me" on a sort-of accusation of atypical behavior, and bringing up the 60 hp thing again.
To someone whose post he can't find: attacking could provide information on other players.
To me: can't be characterized as disappearing if he hasn't even been around. Also, "bite me".
To Weedy: actually he's only scum 80% of the time and Weedy has never played with him as town so why should she even go down the road of agreeing with me that Red has been known to disappear as scum? Unvotes, votes Weedy.

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...1#post14961291 -- on attacks again, thinks it might catch scum in a lie

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...4#post14961304 -- is just responding to comments; Gadarene might be right that Inner was town
(For context, both this post and one previous came after Inner's death; Gadarene seemed to be questioning why Skeezix would bother to respond if Inner is dead and town.)

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...8#post14961428 -- concedes that scum might have no need to lie about their role status (making attacks not useful for catching lies), argues death is not always the worst thing that can happen to a townie

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...1#post14961501 -- scum alignment often enough for scum to lie (response to LF saying his previous post read as odd)

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...3#post14961513 -- only just realized the good in the reveal is not the same as "town"; could the game get any more convuluted?

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...2#post14961552 -- "bite me"

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...3#post14961563 -- doesn't like choie twice bringing up previous games as a comment on players in this one, only to discount it. Would put a vote on her as third choice if he had one to spare.


Questions for Red Skeezix: None.

I wish he could or would be around and play without being so clearly irritated by the whole process, but there's nothing in here that really strikes me as scummy despite my insane levels of paranoia about him. I don't like the single-day (all in the space of an hour or two IIRC) blast through the game with nothing ever anywhere else -- in the context of his clear difficulty in playing scum roles at the moment and exasperation at getting given such roles so often (see the 80% comment), it's very easy to see this as being what you get when a talented player gets YET ANOTHER role he just plain does not want to play. But there's nothing that really rings false, either.

He's due to be mod-killed tomorrow if he doesn't turn up again and for now I'll leave it at that, but it's going to be very nearly shoot on sight if he does given he so obviously just wants nothign at all to do with the whole process.

[Normal Phase]

Originally Posted by MHaye

I remind you that, in a Clue Mafia on Giraffe, you were a second Mafia kill - something I'm still uncomfortable with as I feel giving the Mafia two kills per Night is a little overpowered.)

Exactly -- though I wasn't thinking of it, he's done double scum kills even in this group of players. New hypothesis: two night attacks possible from Phere, coming from two different people, though possibly (probably?) both scum. Which could mean that the attacks would change (keeping in mind the elemental alignment thingie) or even cease, should the right people die. I dont' think this is likely to be a game that's two kills (or replacement resurrections/whatever) all the way no matter what.

[Normal Phase]

vote: PetW

Reading Red's posts reminded me of my issues with him. There was something I wanted to add at one point and never got around to; will do that next before movign on. Need coffee. Damn me for being so lazy toDay.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Originally Posted by gnarlycharlie

i'm not sure your vote counts since it's not in bold.

anyway, is a vote for a zombie legal? if yes, can they actually be lynched?

Yes and yes.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Originally Posted by BobArrgh

choie, your "We have nothing to fear but Phere itself" is extremely interesting. I think that it would be a really horrible twist for an already complicated game, but it does bear considering. That would lead us back to someone's (possibly Gadarene?) suggestions that we all attack Phere.

"You creatures are dumb as rocks, and less frightening than the worms that squirm beneath them. I am insulted that you believe you could ever hope to defeat me. You maggots need to bring something more to a fight than limp-wristed slapping, but appear to be incapable of it!"

-IC-

[storyteller0910]

@Normal -

-- Visor responded to your challenge of his vote on ToeJam. Comments?

Not at the moment. Visorslash is problematic for me in exactly the same way that Special Ed is problematic: many of his posts are short and somewhat cryptic. His reasoning is not always provided. You (and possibly others) have said that he always plays like this, but - much like Special Ed - that doesn't matter. An impenetrable posting style is a huge problem because in those instances that the player is Scum, (s)he can basically do anything and never get called upon to explain or defend... because "(s)he always plays like that." I intend to continue making sure that Visor makes his thought processes clear. He has done so, and while I don't agree with him, I'm satisfied for the moment that he's answered without a lot of hemming and hawing.

-- What do you actually mean by saying that fubbleskag has to negotiate?

Look, he's third party. I mean, I don't know this with 100% certainty, but I think it's really, really likely. Whatever his goal, he's not going to achieve it if someone kills him or if he's lynched. His current approach has been to say, "here are the conditions under which I'll help, and that's how it's going to be, period." I think that's a self-defeating position to adopt, because if he won't provide us any value and he seems unlikely to be Town, we really have no reason to keep him alive at all.

I am working out a proposed course of action for fubbles; I'd prefer to put it in a separate post for clarity. But he will have to be willing to negotiate, rather than just make demands, if he wants to survive at all.

[quote[On color: Pizza's color does mean something, always. The trick -- especially in a game where he's promised to be a bit of a bastard -- is to determine what. [/quote]

Perhaps that's true; I've never played in one of his games before. But here's the thing: I'm not at all interested in trying to hunt for clues in the color. You'll be wrong at least as often as you're right, often with very bad consequences, and it's trivially easy for a moderator to screw with players who are trying to use the color to crack the game.

But if any townie expects me to believe that they are able to control Lord Phere to do stuff, well it's pretty much getting to the point where I'm going to expect them to claim it. Because right now we have the following list of what Lord Phere has done:

My current working hypothesis is that "Lord Phere" is a game-mechanic, a conduit that performs actions on behalf of some players - either as a purely color-based contrivance or specifically to make them unwatchable/untrackable/unblockable. Thus the triple votes, the attack, the Night kills, the ressurrections: all could be the work of different individual players, whose actions are funneled through Lord Phere (again, either just for fun color or for some mechanical reason). Under this hypothesis, there's no definitive reason to assume that all of those individual players are Scum. A Townie with a Night kill is not exactly unheard of.

[Normal Phase]

Originally Posted by storyteller0910

My current working hypothesis is that "Lord Phere" is a game-mechanic, a conduit that performs actions on behalf of some players - either as a purely color-based contrivance or specifically to make them unwatchable/untrackable/unblockable. Thus the triple votes, the attack, the Night kills, the ressurrections: all could be the work of different individual players, whose actions are funneled through Lord Phere (again, either just for fun color or for some mechanical reason). Under this hypothesis, there's no definitive reason to assume that all of those individual players are Scum. A Townie with a Night kill is not exactly unheard of.

No, but if anyone wants to take credit for it they're going to need a good story.

[gnarlycharlie]

Originally Posted by Normal Phase

vote: PetW

Reading Red's posts reminded me of my issues with him. There was something I wanted to add at one point and never got around to; will do that next before movign on. Need coffee. Damn me for being so lazy toDay.

is PetW scheduled to be modkilled if he doesn't show up toDay? if so, that may be a waste.

anyone know how many are scheduled for modkill after toDay? they will be likely Town. unfortunately, modkills sometimes have no reveal at all. at least with lynches and NKs we get something.

Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy

"You creatures are dumb as rocks, and less frightening than the worms that squirm beneath them. I am insulted that you believe you could ever hope to defeat me. You maggots need to bring something more to a fight than limp-wristed slapping, but appear to be incapable of it!"

-IC-

i think it's useless to attack Phere. it's likely we need to kill all the scum, however many there are. then Phere reverts to the king and all is well again.

[Weedy]

Rough vote count, only most recent votes counted:

[2] Believerer Suburban Plankton 1892 Gadarene 1783
[2] BobArrgh Believerer 1886 Scathach 1877
Silver Jan Astral 1873
PetW Normal Phase 2039
unvote Tanaer 2008
gnarlycharlie Lightfoot 1987
RealityTrip septimus 1980
Gadarene choie 1968
Mhaye Weedy 1948
ToeJam Visorslash 1937


Pendant:
Mhaye Mhaye 2037
[3] Astral choie 2010 Tanaer 2008 fubbleskag 1902
Visorslash Visorslash 1855
septimus septimus 1820
Silver Jan Silver Jan 1814
Believerer Believerer 1782

[Normal Phase]

No one is scheduled for modkill today, now that Storyteller is back. RedSkeezix, Mahaloth, lilflower, Believerer (and Storyteller) could potentially be modkilled tomorrow should they not place any further votes, since they each only have one so far. I think everyone else has voted twice.

[Weedy]

unvote

vote ToeJam. I feel like he has said a lot without saying anything, and he seems slippery. I think that puts him at [3]. If he doesn't go, I would definitely prefer Believerer lynched over BobArrgh or PetW, but these wagons can still change so much that protective voting doesn't seem useful. If I wake up early enough to change my vote, I might.

[Visorslash]

When is PC?

[Normal Phase]

unvote
vote: MHaye

I'm going back through looking at PetW's posts and while I haven't gotten to the one that pinged the crap out of me yet, so far they actually look townie. *facepalm* Will continue in case that opinion reverses again and post when done, but it's starting to get short on time and I think I need to have my vote where it feels best sooner rather than later.