Order of the Stick - Book 5 Discussion Thread

[jayjay]

Originally Posted by Grumman

Durkon's got True Seeing, which means he can see straight through the illusion. The problem is that under the illusion is just another suit of armour.

This is true...I forgot that even without the illusion Tarqin's still wearing a helm, so Durkon can't tell that he's not Thog at all.

[Peter Morris]

Has there been any indication of why he's doing it? Why should he pretend to be Thog at all?

[Little Nemo]

Originally Posted by Peter Morris

Has there been any indication of why he's doing it? Why should he pretend to be Thog at all?

No doubt he has a clever plan. Which it appears we'll see in the next strip.

[jayjay]

Because OOTS don't know that Tarqin is siding with the Linear Guild. They don't know that either Tarqin or Malack are currently working against them and Tarqin wants to keep it that way. I'm assuming that both Tarqin and Malack are higher levels than either the Linears or the Sticks, which means our heroes could be in for quite a surprise in this fight with "Thog".

[Leaper]

The more suspicious part (to me) was Tarquin's pleasure at being attacked by the Order in the last panel. Is he a distraction? Whose plan is he thinking "magnificent"?

[Little Nemo]

Okay, I'm going on record with some lone-term guesses.

This will not be the final battle. There are two more gates in existence and I figure Kraagor's Gate is like Chekhov's Gun. Burlew wouldn't have put it into the story if he didn't plan on using it.

So I'm guessing Girard's Gate will serve a different purpose other than the final confrontation between Good and Evil. And I'm putting my money on Evil vs Evil.

I thinking we're going to see the Order of the Stick getting into a big fight with the Linear Guild. And then right before the climax, that fight will be interrupted by Xykon. That will be the climax of the current arc.

The next arc will feature a change of alliances. The Linear Guild, while evil, has no interest in having Xykon win or in seeing the universe destroyed. So the Linear Guild will be forced to change sides and temporarily work with the Order of the Stick to defeat Xykon and prevent him from opening Girard's Gate.

This arc will allow Burlew to address some of the plotlines he's planted: Elan and Nale, Elan and Tarquin, Sabine and her loyalty to the Nale, maybe even Haley and her family history. Burlew will clear up the Linear Guild plotlines, Xykon will be semi-defeated once again, and everyone left standing will head off to Kraagor's Gate for the final battle. Where, among other things, Burlew will work out the Xykon vs Redcloak plotline.

[jayjay]

Originally Posted by Little Nemo

Where, among other things, Burlew will work out the Xykon vs Redcloak plotline.

And finally reveal what the MITD actually is. He'd better, anyway...

[Lok]

Originally Posted by jayjay

And finally reveal what the MITD actually is. He'd better, anyway...

Nah, it will be one of literature's great unanswered mysteries, like who killed Edwin Drood.

[Little Nemo]

Originally Posted by jayjay

And finally reveal what the MITD actually is. He'd better, anyway...

Burlew has said he has an answer to this and will reveal it eventually in the story.

[Yllaria]

Originally Posted by Leaper

The more suspicious part (to me) was Tarquin's pleasure at being attacked by the Order in the last panel. Is he a distraction? Whose plan is he thinking "magnificent"?

It's not anyone's plan, it's the drama. Tarquin is all about manipulating the drama. He identified the protagonists awhile back. Now he has a chance to size them up AS protagonists and they're meeting or exceeding his expectations.

[The Other Waldo Pepper]

Originally Posted by Yllaria

It's not anyone's plan, it's the drama. Tarquin is all about manipulating the drama. He identified the protagonists awhile back. Now he has a chance to size them up AS protagonists and they're meeting or exceeding his expectations.

He was admittedly eager to fight someone worth battling -- even getting his axe out of storage for the occasion! -- but I think you're implying a bit much.

If by 'meeting his expectations' you mean none of 'em will spot the tracking device he planted on them, and all of 'em will believe he's Thog, and their front-line fighter will be knocked down by a well-swung axe, and their clowning foil will be screaming "Ahh! It's burning! Get it off!" -- because, in this race for hidden treasure, it's the protagonists who sweat and bleed and die to overcome the many challenges before the antagonists seize it from them at the last minute, such that he merely needs to move 'em into position by saying something to make 'em rush into place at the mere suggestion of its location -- then, yes, they're flawlessly meeting his expectations; I think he referred to it as "child's play".

I'll grant that (a) for Tarquin it's about a great story über alles, and of course that (b) he always goes into antagonist-v-protagonist confrontations accepting the price he may eventually pay after living like a god for decades. But, sure as the self-styled finest warrior of his generation thinks he may well win, I don't see that he expects 'em to do especially well against him and his; it's just that he has some long-term plans in motion, and those plans need a little nudge here and there from people with the OOTS's talents, is all.

[shantih]

Originally Posted by Little Nemo

Okay, I'm going on record with some lone-term guesses.

This will not be the final battle. There are two more gates in existence and I figure Kraagor's Gate is like Chekhov's Gun. Burlew wouldn't have put it into the story if he didn't plan on using it.

I was going to quibble that there is only one gate after this one, but then I realized that I had probably read you wrong. Assuming that we're on the same page -- there are two remaining gates, Girard's Gate and Kraagor's Gate -- I totally agree with your point here. Kraagor's Gate will be the scene of the final, most dramatic battle and the climax of the story.

We know that Belkar will die fairly soon. I wonder if it will happen as part of this fight (or as Team Evil's first move when they arrive at Girard's Gate), or if Rich Burlew is saving it for the last confrontation at the final gate.

[Little Nemo]

Originally Posted by shantih

I was going to quibble that there is only one gate after this one, but then I realized that I had probably read you wrong. Assuming that we're on the same page -- there are two remaining gates, Girard's Gate and Kraagor's Gate -- I totally agree with your point here. Kraagor's Gate will be the scene of the final, most dramatic battle and the climax of the story.

Yes, that's what I mean. I'm just not sure what you thought I was saying.

[shantih]

My apologies then; I did read you wrong at first. Your phrasing was "This will not be the final battle. There are two more gates in existence..." and my first understanding is that you were saying that there were two more gates after this one. You were in fact not saying that and I will just go sit quietly in the corner over there now.

[Little Nemo]

Okay, I see your point. I should have said "There are two gates remaining in existence".

And while we're on the subject, I should have said "long-term guesses".

But my main points remain. Here are my predictions:

1. Girard's Gate is just another mid-point in the story, like Durokan's Gate or Soon's Gate was. The climax isn't going to happen here.
2. Team Evil is going to show up at Girard's Gate.
3. The Linear Guild will end up fighting against Xykon and becoming a de facto ally of the Order of the Stick.
4. The plotlines involving Nale, Sabine, and Tarquin are going to be resolved in the next arc while the plotlines involving Xykon, Redcloak, and the Monster in the Darkness will be deferred until a future arc.

[squeegee]

Originally Posted by Little Nemo

Okay, I see your point. I should have said "There are two gates remaining in existence".

And while we're on the subject, I should have said "long-term guesses".

But my main points remain. Here are my predictions:

1. Girard's Gate is just another mid-point in the story, like Durokan's Gate or Soon's Gate was. The climax isn't going to happen here.
2. Team Evil is going to show up at Girard's Gate.
3. The Linear Guild will end up fighting against Xykon and becoming a de facto ally of the Order of the Stick.
4. The plotlines involving Nale, Sabine, and Tarquin are going to be resolved in the next arc while the plotlines involving Xykon, Redcloak, and the Monster in the Darkness will be deferred until a future arc.

3a. Both sides (Xycon vs Linear Stick Guild Order) will lose the proximate fight when the proximate gate is also blowed up like the previous one. Krakakoooom. Then off to the next gate, with or without the Linear Guild (who will probably turn on the Order as soon as Girard's gate is toast).

[GreedySmurf]

Originally Posted by jayjay

This is true...I forgot that even without the illusion Tarqin's still wearing a helm, so Durkon can't tell that he's not Thog at all.

But what I don't buy is that Durkon can see through the Illusion. Helm or not, are you telling me he can't tell the difference (purely in terms of body shape and size) between a Half Orc barbarian and a human fighter?

I think it's a terrible plot point nerfing True Seeing like that.

[jayjay]

Originally Posted by GreedySmurf

But what I don't buy is that Durkon can see through the Illusion. Helm or not, are you telling me he can't tell the difference (purely in terms of body shape and size) between a Half Orc barbarian and a human fighter?

I think it's a terrible plot point nerfing True Seeing like that.

What body shape and size? Everybody's squarish and has the same spindly arms and legs with round hands with three spindly fingers coming out of them...the only real way to tell the difference between a half-orc and a human in The World Of The Stick is to see skin color, hairstyle or facial features. All Durkon can see is some humanoid person in full armor (including gauntlets and helm)...the general party assumption that it's Thog isn't a definite identification. It's based entirely on context (that this person is apparently a brute force fighter in association with the LG and that he talks like Thog). Subtlety in personal presentation is pretty much unknown in this world.

[Chronos]

It's not a nerf of True Seeing. True Seeing penetrates the illusion, but it explicitly does not help against mundane disguises or stealth. What Durkon sees is someone in armor. Yeah, Thog (who has the same body as Roy) is a bit beefier than Tarquin (who has the same body as Elan), but armor will mask that at least somewhat, Durkon (being a dwarf) probably isn't too up on the fine distinctions, and it's perfectly reasonable to expect Thog anyway.

[jayjay]

Exactly, the art style of the strip has been lampshaded as being literally the way things are in Stickworld multiple times, not least in the CPPD Blues strip.

[Malleus, Incus, Stapes!]

I guess Lawful Evil in the Stickverse means "Twist the truth into a pretzel, but never tell a lie... unless you really really need to. In which case, go ahead and swear the sky is green."

[Malleus, Incus, Stapes!]

Also, Tarquin can't quite ape Thog's body posture. That pointing-finger-at-self in panel 6- that just screams Tarquin to me.

[Captain Amazing]

Originally Posted by Malleus, Incus, Stapes!

I guess Lawful Evil in the Stickverse means "Twist the truth into a pretzel, but never tell a lie... unless you really really need to. In which case, go ahead and swear the sky is green."

Tarquin is engaged in tactical deceit, which isn't exactly the same thing as lying. He's trying to trick his enemies.

[Miller]

Originally Posted by Malleus, Incus, Stapes!

I guess Lawful Evil in the Stickverse means "Twist the truth into a pretzel, but never tell a lie... unless you really really need to. In which case, go ahead and swear the sky is green."

People are not all one thing. Tarquin is Lawful Evil because he's the sort of person who has five different intrigues running at the same time, four of them in opposition to each other, and three separate failure contingency plans per intrigue, all so that no matter what happens, he has a plan ready to put into action so he comes out on top. Being that sort of person does not preclude him from telling a lie, nor does the fact that he occasionally lies balance the massive amount of obsessive planning and organization he regularly employs to keep himself in power.

[Gagundathar]

Originally Posted by jayjay

Exactly, the art style of the strip has been lampshaded as being literally the way things are in Stickworld multiple times, not least in the CPPD Blues strip.

As an aside, are there any other similar portraits of other members of the OOTS?

[jayjay]

Originally Posted by Gagundathar

As an aside, are there any other similar portraits of other members of the OOTS?

None by Burlew, I don't think. There's a LOT of fanart, though, that realisticizes (is too!) the characters. This thread in the tgitp forums has a compilation.

[Little Nemo]

Originally Posted by Miller

People are not all one thing. Tarquin is Lawful Evil because he's the sort of person who has five different intrigues running at the same time, four of them in opposition to each other, and three separate failure contingency plans per intrigue, all so that no matter what happens, he has a plan ready to put into action so he comes out on top. Being that sort of person does not preclude him from telling a lie, nor does the fact that he occasionally lies balance the massive amount of obsessive planning and organization he regularly employs to keep himself in power.

Tarquin is Lawful. He just makes sure he's the one writing the laws.

[Gagundathar]

Originally Posted by jayjay

None by Burlew, I don't think. There's a LOT of fanart, though, that realisticizes (is too!) the characters. This thread in the tgitp forums has a compilation.

Thank you very much, jayjay!
That is what I was looking for.

[DesertDog]

Originally Posted by jayjay

Exactly, the art style of the strip has been lampshaded as being literally the way things are in Stickworld multiple times, not least in the CPPD Blues strip.

Yet when Red Cloak was examining the copy of Xykon's phylactery, he commented, "Perfect. Every detail, every scratch . . ." but all we were seeing were two concentric circles. I figured at the time our view into the stickverse is less sharp than the residents'.

[jayjay]

Originally Posted by DesertDog

Yet when Red Cloak was examining the copy of Xykon's phylactery, he commented, "Perfect. Every detail, every scratch . . ." but all we were seeing were two concentric circles. I figured at the time our view into the stickverse is less sharp than the residents'.

It could be both...their "real view" could be more detailed without being more like our reality.

[Knorf]

Bah. I thought there was a new one. False alarm, all, sorry.

But as long as I'm bumping this thread ... any thoughts as to when and how V will be rejoining the action?

[Heller Highwater]

New one's up.

Always gotta' love a good grammar pun.

SPOILER:

Some of Tarqin's actions seem decidedly un-Thog like there. That might be the sort of thing Roy or Durkon could catch on to.

[Alessan]

Just what level is Tarqin, anyway? The man has game.

[Gyrate]

They also serve, who only stand and distract the bad guy.

[Kobal2]

Originally Posted by Leaper

The more suspicious part (to me) was Tarquin's pleasure at being attacked by the Order in the last panel. Is he a distraction? Whose plan is he thinking "magnificent"?

Considering he's tanking the entire OOTS (minus V) all by himself, distraction would fit the bill.
On the other hand, it's possible that Nale chose the moment daddy dearest was locked in the middle of a one-on-four fight with high level do gooders to switch back to his own side, and is fighting Malack and the kobold clerk off panel with Sabine and Z.

(I gotta say though, that arrow snatch 'n stab is a thing of beauty. When did he get levels in Monk ? And perhaps more to the point, how does he figure he'll fool anyone into thinking he's Thog when he's snatching arrows in mid-air ?)

[Hypno-Toad]

I think Roy is going to figure it out just from the fighting style. Also, now that Tarquin has shown his moves, the Order is going to be more careful and fight accordingly.

[Grumman]

Originally Posted by Kobal2

(I gotta say though, that arrow snatch 'n stab is a thing of beauty. When did he get levels in Monk ?

You don't need to be a Monk to do it, it just gives you the prerequisites as bonus feats.

There are lots of cool things you can do if you put your mind to it - one of my favourites was a character who could perform a one-handed chokeslam as a charge reaction.

[mlees]

I don't get what he did to Durkon. Please explain panel #8.

[mlees]

Can Haley use a blade? (Or sap? or anything other than a bow?)

[The Other Waldo Pepper]

Originally Posted by mlees

I don't get what he did to Durkon. Please explain panel #8.

After shrugging off the "Hold Person" spell, he punnily reached forward to hold a person (namely, Durkon) and spun around in place like an Olympic hammer-thrower, causing the guy he'd grabbed to build up momentum before a fine bit of dwarf-tossing. Same combat move our hero does in SUPERMAN II, if that helps you.

[Gyrate]

Originally Posted by mlees

I don't get what he did to Durkon. Please explain panel #8.

Dwarf tossing, of course. Specifically, he swings Durkon around and around before releasing him (WHOOOOSH!).

[mlees]

Originally Posted by The Other Waldo Pepper

After shrugging off the "Hold Person" spell, he punnily reached forward to hold a person (namely, Durkon) and spun around in place like an Olympic hammer-thrower, causing the guy he'd grabbed to build up momentum before a fine bit of dwarf-tossing. Same combat move our hero does in SUPERMAN II, if that helps you.

Originally Posted by Gyrate

Dwarf tossing, of course. Specifically, he swings Durkon around and around before releasing him (WHOOOOSH!).

Ah! Thanks. For some reason, it looked to me like Tarquin threw Durkon over his shoulder, and was carrying him off into the temple.

[hogarth]

Originally Posted by Kobal2

(I gotta say though, that arrow snatch 'n stab is a thing of beauty. When did he get levels in Monk ?

He could be using Tome of Battle-style maneuvers as well. (Assuming that there's any D&D basis behind what he's doing at all, of course.)

[Larry Borgia]

Originally Posted by hogarth

He could be using Tome of Battle-style maneuvers as well. (Assuming that there's any D&D basis behind what he's doing at all, of course.)

You can take "snatch arrows" as a fighter bonus feat, though that should prove he's not Thog.

[Kobal2]

Originally Posted by Grumman

You don't need to be a Monk to do it, it just gives you the prerequisites as bonus feats.

There are lots of cool things you can do if you put your mind to it - one of my favourites was a character who could perform a one-handed chokeslam as a charge reaction.

To clarify: I know Deflect Arrows is a feat like any other, it's just that on the whole it's a shit feat.

It's conditional on something you can't control (i.e. somebody shooting at you) that won't come into play in many, many battles (basically it only works against humanoid opponents since monsters typically have their own ranged attacks, acid spews or spell-likes to chuck instead), it doesn't even work to deflect arrow-like spells which would make it marginally more useful (screw your magic missiles !). But worst of all: it only kills one ranged attack per round, which at low levels means very little as archers won't have any of the feats that make archery competitive with melee ; while at high level the archer(s) will simply shrug and fire another twelve flaming shots at your noggin'.

Hence the Monk assumption: it's an OK feat for monks because they get it as a freebie on top of plenty of other, actually good reasons to dip into Monk (and as a mate likes saying, "If it's free it's in my price range" ). But as a fighter, ye gods why would you waste one of your precious, precious feat slots on that crap ?!

And this is not just Deflect Arrows: it's Snatch Arrows, which requires not only Deflect, but also Improved Unarmed Fighting (another meh feat Monks get for free but Warriors gotta pay for). So that's 3 feats wasted just to... do something admittedly incredibly stylish . Still, I mean...yeah.

[Balance]

Originally Posted by Kobal2

To clarify: I know Deflect Arrows is a feat like any other, it's just that on the whole it's a shit feat.

Consider his sons' builds. Perhaps the unoptimized apple does not fall far from the tree.

[Lightray]

Originally Posted by mlees

Can Haley use a blade? (Or sap? or anything other than a bow?)

We've seen her use a knife (Crystal's, when she gacked Crystal). And she used a sap at some point in the whole Greysky Thieves' Guild plotline, I think. Plus, she's stabbed Sabine with arrows sans bow at least once.

[Kobal2]

Originally Posted by mlees

Can Haley use a blade? (Or sap? or anything other than a bow?)

Short answer: yes, but no.

Rogues have access to all simple weapons, plus a handful of martial weapons (from memory: rapier, shortsword, whip, hand crossbow, shortbow and blackjack). That said, just because she can technically wield one without a penalty doesn't mean she'd be any good or efficient with it. For example, although her Sneak Attack could sort of bridge the damage gap, if she never took Weapon Finesse then she'd struggle just getting her blows to connect at all since she's evidently focused on Dex rather than Str.

Generally speaking, in AD&D (and Pathfinder) the higher level purely physical class you are the more specialized and narrowly focused you become, and the gimpier you get whenever you don't have access to your weapon/tactical situation of choice.
Spellcasters are of course all the more versatile the higher their level, because BALANCE!

[Chronos]

For comparison, V considered emself useless in the Battle for Azure City once e'd run out of spells, even though e has bow proficiency automatically as an elf, since a wizard with a bow is much less effective than a wizard with spells. Although really, that would still probably put em in the top 20 or so archers in the city, just due to es high level (compared to the vast majority of soldiers).

[E-Sabbath]

I rather like how Tarquin clearly expected Elan to be the big badass.