The Straight Dope

Go Back   Straight Dope Message Board > Main > Great Debates

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #151  
Old 04-27-2012, 06:18 PM
YogSosoth YogSosoth is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by brazil84 View Post
All except Lebanon. And it's not like Lebanon loves Israel or something.
Are you saying that Israel has been in a war with all of its neighbors except Lebanon? Which war was that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by brazil84 View Post
Pretty much none are. Well, there's Egypt which gets what amounts to a 2 billion dollar a year bribe. And still remains rather hostile. And Jordan.
No, almost all countries in the ME are peaceful with Israel with few exceptions. They may make pronouncements about its legitimacy and idiot politicians are often misquoted as to wanting Israel destroyed, but nobody really does anything. Actions are louder than words, and it plays to the next part below:

Quote:
Originally Posted by brazil84 View Post
Then why not absorb the so-called "refugees"?
They don't want to. Those are illegal immigrants to them, and like I said, keeping them around and Israel around as a distraction to their own policies is beneficial to them. Why get rid of a wholly manufactured enemy? Do you think Saudi Arabia or Turkey or Qatar really believes Israel's a threat to them? No, so they enjoy having Israel around so that whenever people talk about reform or regime change, those in charge can rattle the cages and get some angry protests about Israel to drown out the failures of their own policy

Its kind of like abortion in the US. There is a population that wants abortion completely banned, but almost no conservative GOP wants that to happen. That's why they make these pathetic bills limiting abortion but not banning it, because 1) they know they will lose a SCOTUS challenge and 2) they can use the issue to rally people to their side
Reply With Quote
Advertisements  
  #152  
Old 04-27-2012, 08:00 PM
carnivorousplant carnivorousplant is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Central Arkansas
Posts: 40,958
Quote:
Originally Posted by YogSosoth View Post
Are you saying that Israel has been in a war with all of its neighbors except Lebanon? Which war was that?


I've never found a list of which countries attacked Israel when they declared statehood in 1948.
Reply With Quote
  #153  
Old 04-27-2012, 09:16 PM
Odesio Odesio is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Quote:
Originally Posted by carnivorousplant View Post
I've never found a list of which countries attacked Israel when they declared statehood in 1948.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Ar...%93Israeli_War

Wikipedia has some information about the nations/armies involved.
Reply With Quote
  #154  
Old 04-27-2012, 09:27 PM
carnivorousplant carnivorousplant is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Central Arkansas
Posts: 40,958
Quote:
Originally Posted by Odesio View Post
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Ar...%93Israeli_War

Wikipedia has some information about the nations/armies involved.
Yes, I looked at that before I posted, but there is no list.
What was it, five, seven countries?
Reply With Quote
  #155  
Old 04-27-2012, 09:44 PM
Odesio Odesio is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Quote:
Originally Posted by carnivorousplant View Post
Yes, I looked at that before I posted, but there is no list.
What was it, five, seven countries?
There's a list right there. Egypt, Transjordan, Syria, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, and Lebanon in addition to other groups/forces.
Reply With Quote
  #156  
Old 04-28-2012, 03:40 AM
brazil84 brazil84 is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by YogSosoth View Post
Are you saying that Israel has been in a war with all of its neighbors except Lebanon? Which war was that?
1948. And again in 1967. If you really don't know that, then you should consider taking a break to study the history of the region before making assertions and arguments about the Arab/Israeli conflict.

Quote:
No, almost all countries in the ME are peaceful with Israel with few exceptions.
Again, if you really believe that you are completely ignorant of the situation in the Middle East. Israel has conducted hostile military operations in Lebanon and Syria just in the last 10 years. A few years ago, Israel bombed a Syrian nuclear project. Try entering Lebanon, Syria, Dubai, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Kuwait, or Iraq with an Israeli passport and see what happens.

Why do you suppose Syria has not launched a military assault against Israel for bombing its nuclear reactor project? Are the Syrians that peace-loving? Or do they just know that Israel will kick their asses again?

Quote:
Those are illegal immigrants to them,
Illegal immigrants can come from a lot of different places, but typically they do not merit a special resolution of the Arab League:

Quote:
Arab states will reject the giving of citizenship to applicants of Palestinian origin in order to prevent their integration into the host countries
As far as I know, that resolution is still in effect today.

But actually, it gets better. Because you would think that of all Arab nations, a "Palestinian State" would grant citizenship to Palestinian Arabs. Not so. The plan is to deny citizenship to Palestinian Arabs, even those living in "refugee camps" on the West Bank.

Quote:
Do you think Saudi Arabia or Turkey or Qatar really believes Israel's a threat to them?
No I don't. (By the way, Turkey is not an Arab country.) But that's not the issue.

Quote:
Its kind of like abortion in the US. There is a population that wants abortion completely banned, but almost no conservative GOP wants that to happen. That's why they make these pathetic bills limiting abortion but not banning it, because 1) they know they will lose a SCOTUS challenge and 2) they can use the issue to rally people to their side
Actually this is a pretty good analogy. It may very well be true that your typical conservative GOP leader does not want abortion banned. Or does not have strong feelings about the issue. Just like your typical Saudi Prince probably doesn't care too much about Israel, he probably cares far more about chasing girls and partying.

But if things got to a point where conservative GOPers were in complete control of the United States for long enough to impose its agenda, what would happen is that the hard-core pro-lifers would push hard for abortion restrictions and party leadership would tend to go along with it because they don't want to take a pro-choice stand.

Something similar would happen with Israel if the Arab states were strong enough to conquer Israel militarily.

Let me ask you this: Why did Iraq participate in the 1948 war against Israel, and again in 1967? Surely the Iraqis did not consider Israel to be a threat.
Reply With Quote
  #157  
Old 04-28-2012, 04:51 AM
Ibn Warraq Ibn Warraq is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by brazil84 View Post

Let me ask you this: Why did Iraq participate in the 1948 war against Israel, and again in 1967? Surely the Iraqis did not consider Israel to be a threat.
Iraq had treaty obligation with her allies that she'd aid them if attacked by Israel and Israel launched a preemptive strike against Egypt.

Also, keep in mind Iraq only gave token support.
Reply With Quote
  #158  
Old 04-28-2012, 08:30 AM
carnivorousplant carnivorousplant is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Central Arkansas
Posts: 40,958
Quote:
Originally Posted by Odesio View Post
There's a list right there. Egypt, Transjordan, Syria, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, and Lebanon in addition to other groups/forces.
Thanks, Odesio.
Reply With Quote
  #159  
Old 04-28-2012, 10:15 AM
Terr Terr is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibn Warraq View Post
Iraq had treaty obligation with her allies that she'd aid them if attacked by Israel and Israel launched a preemptive strike against Egypt.

Also, keep in mind Iraq only gave token support.
Wiki on the 1948 Arab-Israeli war gives the troop count for Iraq as "Iraq: 3,000 initially, rising to 15,00018,000". That's far more than "token".
Reply With Quote
  #160  
Old 04-28-2012, 11:35 AM
Ibn Warraq Ibn Warraq is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Terr View Post
Wiki on the 1948 Arab-Israeli war gives the troop count for Iraq as "Iraq: 3,000 initially, rising to 15,00018,000". That's far more than "token".
I was referring to the Six Day War in 1967, which is why I mentioned Israel's preemptive strike on Egypt.
Reply With Quote
  #161  
Old 05-01-2012, 02:54 PM
Damuri Ajashi Damuri Ajashi is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alessan View Post
But we do see it coming from far off, right now. The Palestinians have the highest growth rate of any human population, ever - they average, I think, 8 children per family - and unlike historical societies where such large families were common, thanks to the fact that they have access to modern medicine, most of those children reach adulthood. Do you think they were 49% of the population 20 years ago? The only reason the Jewish population (2.7 children per family) has somehow managed to keep up is immigration, and unless you've heard of 2 million American Jews who have considered making Aliyah, that well has pretty much dried out.

"The womb of the Arab woman is my strongest weapon" - Yasser Arafat, and he wasn't kidding.
By that rationale then even Israel's current minority Palestinian population poses a national security threat to Israel. Its just a matter of time. Why don't kick them all out. Short of genocide, you guys are going to have to learn how to get along (just like we are going to have to learn how to get along with all those lazy Mexicans stealing all our jobs here in the United States).

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrainGlutton View Post
You know, it is really a lot more realistic to think of the U.S. as the bolt-hole in case things for Jews go all death-shaped in Israel, rather than the other way around.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibn Warraq View Post
Er...what makes you think the US would suddenly open the floodgates for non-American Jews?

The US certainly had a vastly better record than Canada during WWII, but the dish say "come one, come all" to the Jew of Europe as the Nazis were shoving them into ovens.
Yeah, and a lot has changed in the last 70 years. Israel will not provide effective sanctuary if anti-semitism in the US gets to the point that Jews start fleeing the country. Not if Israel is still being contested by the Palestinians.
Reply With Quote
Reply



Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:04 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@chicagoreader.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Publishers - interested in subscribing to the Straight Dope?
Write to: sdsubscriptions@chicagoreader.com.

Copyright 2013 Sun-Times Media, LLC.