It's ANZAC Day Today

[Martini Enfield]

All across Australia and New Zealand (and other parts of the world with significant Australian/NZ populations), people have spent the morning at Dawn Services, Parades, Marches, and Ceremonies remembering the sacrifices made by the people who have served our countries in war as part of ANZAC Day.

It seemed inappropriate that there wasn't already a thread on it (that I could find), so I figured it might be a good idea to change that...

[mhendo]

Still about 40 minutes before Anzac Day on this side of the world.

It's one of the few dates that still makes me think of home. I remember having a ceremony every Anzac Day as a kid, and as an adult it was always great to walk through Sydney and see all the diggers out in their gear. Went to a couple of dawn ceremonies in Martin Place, too. Getting up that early was tough for a night owl like me, but it was worth it.

I'm not one for celebrating or even really memorializing war—and some of the glorifying of the military here in the US annoys the hell out of me—but Anzac Day always seemed somehow different. Maybe it's just because i grew up with it.

This year, maybe i'll just listen to The Pogues, "And the Band Played Waltzing Matilda."

[Cicero]

The Dawn Service was observed here. The young children were picked up at 4 am to observe it.

[Alessan]

In an interesting coincidence, it's Memorial Day here in Israel. The siren sounded out at 11 o'clock this morning.

Little-known fact - a proto-Israeli force actually fought at Gallipoli, on Cape Helles.

[Martini Enfield]

Originally Posted by Alessan

In an interesting coincidence, it's Memorial Day here in Israel. The siren sounded out at 11 o'clock this morning.

Little-known fact - a proto-Israeli force actually fought at Gallipoli, on Cape Helles.

I know a lot of Australians (and NZers, too) are surprised to discover the French (and Senegalese) as well as the Indians were involved at Gallipoli, as well.

[GuanoLad]

There's a great episode of the UK Who Do You Think You Are about Robert Lindsay's ancestors that covers a lot of the battle at Gallipoli, as his grandfather was on one of the ships there. It looked at it from a different angle to what I was familiar with, which was fascinating. I don't know if they even mentioned the word ANZAC at all through the whole piece.

[Northern Piper]

What's the dawn ceremonies you mention?

[mhendo]

Originally Posted by Northern Piper

What's the dawn ceremonies you mention?

Just that: early-morning gathering of remembrance, with wreath-laying ceremonies, prayers, short speeches or recitations, playing of the Last Post, etc.

Example (not the video at the top, which was later in the day, but the story and images below)

[Northern Piper]

but why at dawn?

Remembrance Day ceremonies here are at 11 a.m. on 11/11, because that was the date the Armistice came into effect.

[Cunctator]

ANZAC commemoration ceremonies take place at dawn because the initial landings on the beaches at Gallipoli on 25 April 1915 took place at dawn.

[GuanoLad]

Originally Posted by Northern Piper

but why at dawn?

Because it is. Maybe it's a WWI reference.

[Cicero]

Originally Posted by Northern Piper

but why at dawn?

Remembrance Day ceremonies here are at 11 a.m. on 11/11, because that was the date the Armistice came into effect.

Supposed to coincidewith the time of the landing by the Australian and New Zealand troops. They went in earlier than their British and French counterparts (on different beaches).

[mhendo]

Originally Posted by Northern Piper

but why at dawn?

Remembrance Day ceremonies here are at 11 a.m. on 11/11, because that was the date the Armistice came into effect.

It may surprise you to know that there are important events, commemorated by other countries, that do not coincide perfectly with the dates and times observed in the United States.

[Beastly Rotter]

Originally Posted by Northern Piper

but why at dawn?

Because TURRISTS.

[Northern Piper]

Originally Posted by mhendo

It may surprise you to know that there are important events, commemorated by other countries, that do not coincide perfectly with the dates and times observed in the United States.

It may surprise you to know that I'm not an American, and I'm not talking about American ceremonies.

My point was that Remembrance Day ceremonies are at a set time to commemorate not just the day of the event, but the time. So I was wondering if there was any special significance to the dawn for ANZAC. Cunctator and Cicero very nicely helped me to understand, without any snark.

[Shmendrik]

Edit: ninja'ed!

[tellyworth]

Remembrance Day is observed on November 11th in Australia, but it's not a public holiday.

[Spoons]

I have been to the cenotaph in Kings Park, Perth; but not on ANZAC Day. Still, it is impressive--all the names! It is a fine memorial in a beautiful setting.

[Princhester]

Originally Posted by Cunctator

ANZAC commemoration ceremonies take place at dawn because the initial landings on the beaches at Gallipoli on 25 April 1915 took place at dawn.

I agree that this is probably the nominal reason but actually the landings were before dawn.

[Eliahna]

Originally Posted by Northern Piper

but why at dawn?

Remembrance Day ceremonies here are at 11 a.m. on 11/11, because that was the date the Armistice came into effect.

Because it's quite poignant, holding the ceremony in the still of the break of day and remembering those who served in that quiet time of the morning.

Also, it frees up the rest of the day for drinking beer and playing two-up. Public holiday, you know.

[Northern Piper]

Now I have another question: what's "two-up"?

[Askance]

Two-up.

[mhendo]

Originally Posted by Northern Piper

Cunctator and Cicero very nicely helped me to understand, without any snark.

You're right; i'm sorry.

I was in a bad mood earlier (for reasons unrelated to this message board), and i read your message quickly, and assumed it was another one of those periodic "Why don't you funny foreigners do things the same as us?" questions that sometimes pop up here.

I should have realized you weren't American, because Americans generally don't call November 11 Remembrance Day; they call it Veterans Day.

Anyway, my bad. I apologize.

[Quint]

"Heroes who shed their blood and lost their lives! You are now lying in the soil of a friendly country. Therefore rest in peace. There is no difference between the Johnnies and Mehmets to us where they lie side by side here in this country of ours. You, the mothers, who sent their sons from far away countries wipe away your tears; your sons are now lying in our bosom and are in peace. After having lost their lives on this land they have become our sons as well."

I first read this Ataturk quote here on the SDMB in an ANZAC Day thread and think it's worth reposting.

[Northern Piper]

Originally Posted by mhendo

Anyway, my bad. I apologize.

Not to worry.

[Spoons]

Originally Posted by Northern Piper

Now I have another question: what's "two-up"?

A game I have watched being played in Australian casinos and elsewhere. I've never played it, but I have certainly seen it.

Do they still use the old pennies with the white-painted X on the tails side? (And what are they going to do when they cannot find any more of the old pennies?)

[Cicero]

Originally Posted by Spoons

A game I have watched being played in Australian casinos and elsewhere. I've never played it, but I have certainly seen it.

Do they still use the old pennies with the white-painted X on the tails side? (And what are they going to do when they cannot find any more of the old pennies?)

There are so many variations (note two and three coin versions) that I would hazard a guess that the white paint may be something of a more recent tradition. I haven't played it for years but I have never seen any white paint.

I doubt that there will ever be a shortage of pennies even though they have been out of circulation for around 45 years. Millions (well at least hundreds and thousands of them) were made and they are easy to come by at coin shop. Even in my crappy collection I have plenty- including the pre Federation ones. Many were minted in England and India as well I understand before Australia had its own mint.

[Cicero]

Originally Posted by Princhester

I agree that this is probably the nominal reason but actually the landings were before dawn.

You know that old saying "How do get an ag=rgument? Post an opinion on the Internet. Wait."

Well, so as not to disappoint anyone here goes.

The original landing was supposed to be on the 23rd April but was put back two days due to weather. Birdwood had hoped to land at 3.30 am in the dark but there was also a condition that no ship was to be within 5 miles of the shore until moonset.

Two days later- on the 25th- the moon set at 3 and the journey to the shore took 1 1/2 hours (there were no landing barges- they all came in towed boats). So, they landed at 4.30 am just as the sky was beginning to pale.

I'll admit it is still open to debate as the light was still very dim.

[Princhester]

I would have thought what I posted was a fact (potentially an incorrect fact), not an opinion. I don't know about the topic and don't care. I just happened to have read

"Without that intelligence we would have probably landed at dawn rather than before dawn and we would have probably lost 50 per cent in the boats," Dolan tells Inquirer.

in The Australian in the last couple of days. If it's controversial as to whether this is correct I'll bow out and leave it to the military trivia nerds

[An Gadaí]

And now every April I sit on my porch
And I watch the parade pass before me
And I watch my old comrades, how proudly they march
Reliving old dreams of past glory

[AK84]

Gallopoli, the Battle where the ANZACs got thrown back into the sea? Why on earth is it being celebrated? If there has to be something to celebrate Australian martial might surely August 8th is better choice which not coincidentally was a day with real decisive results unlike the Gallopoli disaster.

[Sierra Indigo]

Originally Posted by AK84

Gallopoli, the Battle where the ANZACs got thrown back into the sea? Why on earth is it being celebrated? If there has to be something to celebrate Australian martial might surely August 8th is better choice which not coincidentally was a day with real decisive results unlike the Gallopoli disaster.

Because it's not a celebration of a military victory, it's a remembrance of war and those who served, and who died. It's not about whether the ANZACs won, it's about sacrifice so it's just as apt regardless of whether they "won" or "lost".

[Cicero]

Originally Posted by Princhester

I would have thought what I posted was a fact (potentially an incorrect fact), not an opinion. I don't know about the topic and don't care. I just happened to have read



in The Australian in the last couple of days. If it's controversial as to whether this is correct I'll bow out and leave it to the military trivia nerds

I was trying not to be adversarial but I was quoting from The Official History of Australia in the War of 1914 - 1918 with the addendum of the official historian to clarify the matter. I'll accept the statements of the guys who were there.

[Cicero]

Originally Posted by AK84

Gallopoli, the Battle where the ANZACs got thrown back into the sea? Why on earth is it being celebrated? If there has to be something to celebrate Australian martial might surely August 8th is better choice which not coincidentally was a day with real decisive results unlike the Gallopoli disaster.

Well Sierra Indigo has already answered the main part, and I would agree that there is far too much reference made to Galliopoli with the Western front (and middle east) where far much ANZAC action took place being somewhat ignored.

BTW- the Anzacs were not "thrown back into the sea". If you read of the campaign you would understand that a successful withdrawal was made 7 months after the landing without the loss of a single life. That is hardly thrown back into the sea as in your comment.

[Cicero]

Just for clarification to Princhester in the post above, I'm not sure where Dolan is getting his facts so I am not sure of the Intelligence he was talking about. However, I would have thought that being landed on the correct beach rather than where the ANZACS ended up was more important than whether they landed in half light or in the dark.

[Attack from the 3rd dimension]

Originally Posted by Martini Enfield

I know a lot of Australians (and NZers, too) are surprised to discover the French (and Senegalese) as well as the Indians were involved at Gallipoli, as well.

Apparently the major North American contribution was the Blue Puttees from the erstwhile Dominion of Newfoundland. They're more famous for subsequently being virtually wiped out at Beaumont Hamel as part of the battle of the Somme.

[Spoons]

Originally Posted by Cicero

There are so many variations (note two and three coin versions) that I would hazard a guess that the white paint may be something of a more recent tradition. I haven't played it for years but I have never seen any white paint.

I may be recalling my viewing of the game in Perth's Burswood Casino. Many players in a circle maybe three meters in diameter, surrounding the spinner; the coins being tossed at what seemed to be random times; various casino personnel constantly in motion paying out winners and taking in losing bets, and so on. Very busy; and while I understand the game, the casino version was to me, very confusing. Fun to watch, but I did not play.

Anyway, I do recall the painted X on the coins in the casino. Perhaps it was there so the players and the cameras could easily see, from a distance, what the result of the toss was. But I can understand why it would not be there in a more informal game, where players are closer and have a better view.

Sorry for the hijack, but thanks for the info!

[Cicero]

Well, I live in Perth and haven't been to Burswood for about 2 years. I'll do some research tomorrow- buddy can you lend me a dime? I'm sure I will return a profit!

[AK84]

Originally Posted by Cicero

Well Sierra Indigo has already answered the main part, and I would agree that there is far too much reference made to Galliopoli with the Western front (and middle east) where far much ANZAC action took place being somewhat ignored.

BTW- the Anzacs were not "thrown back into the sea". If you read of the campaign you would understand that a successful withdrawal was made 7 months after the landing without the loss of a single life. That is hardly thrown back into the sea as in your comment.

While a detachment played cricket no less. Still, I maintain the fact that they wee compelled to withraw after several months is fairly clear that the operation was a failure and not exactly memorial worthy.

[Cicero]

Originally Posted by AK84

While a detachment played cricket no less. Still, I maintain the fact that they wee compelled to withraw after several months is fairly clear that the operation was a failure and not exactly memorial worthy.

Let's not muddy the waters about playing cricket, or whether the operation was a success.

You stated "Gallopoli, the Battle where the ANZACs got thrown back into the sea?"

They were not . It is insulting to all Australians and New Zealanders.

Back up your facts or admit you were wrong.

[AK84]

Originally Posted by Cicero

Let's not muddy the waters about playing cricket, or whether the operation was a success.

You stated "Gallopoli, the Battle where the ANZACs got thrown back into the sea?"

They were not . It is insulting to all Australians and New Zealanders.

Back up your facts or admit you were wrong.

Unless you are suddenly going to suggest that Gallipoli was a as yet unsuspected successa and or a hitherto unknown species of victory, I doubt don't think so.

Its an insult to Australians and NZ'ers that the battle was lost?

[Cicero]

Originally Posted by AK84

Unless you are suddenly going to suggest that Gallipoli was a as yet unsuspected successa and or a hitherto unknown species of victory, I doubt don't think so.

Its an insult to Australians and NZ'ers that the battle was lost?

I am not suggesting victory or anything similar.

Proof your facts. You have stated "Gallopoli, the Battle where the ANZACs got thrown back into the sea?"

Show it. I have asked this several times now and not once have you provided an answer- you try the red herring answer as in changing the topic.

Other posters will make up their own minds but I ask you again- where is any fact in this statement: Gallopoli, the Battle where the ANZACs got thrown back into the sea?

[Alessan]

Originally Posted by AK84

Unless you are suddenly going to suggest that Gallipoli was a as yet unsuspected successa and or a hitherto unknown species of victory, I doubt don't think so.

Its an insult to Australians and NZ'ers that the battle was lost?

They may have lost, but they did not lose due to any lack of valor or sacrifice. It is this valor and sacrifice that is being remembered. Do you think this is, perhaps, undeserved?

[twickster]

AK84 -- you've made your point. Continuing will constitute threadshitting. Drop it.

If you, or anyone else, wants to continue along those lines, take it elsewhere -- GD or the Pit.

twickster, MPSIMS moderator