I Pit Men Who Think Working Women Are There to Service Their Sex Drive

[MsWhatsit]

Personally speaking, I've worked retail and restaurant jobs in the past, and if I had a patron who did something like this to me, I'd ask a friend (preferably a large male friend) to escort to me to my car when my shift was over, if possible. Not because Creepy Guy is definitely 100% a rapist, but because he's behaving really inappropriately, and shit, how the hell do I know what other inappropriate stuff he might do?

I mean, I worked with a lot of waitresses who got business cards from guys during their shifts or whatever. Having a guy give you his number and a wink and say "Call me" is really normal and no big deal. Having the same guy come back the next day to harass you about not calling him is totally fucked up and not cool. And yeah, if I were the lone woman working at the store I'd be very wigged out about it.

[Darth Panda]

Originally Posted by Myrnalene

I really don't think some of you are even actually reading and responding to the whole conversation, you're looking for posts by your favorite snark targets to fap about.

If you can find one example of my having made a comment towards even sven before, I'd like to see it.

[Myrnalene]

Originally Posted by Darth Panda

If you can find one example of my having made a comment towards even sven before, I'd like to see it.

I didn't say fuckall about you ever commenting to her before. So.

[Darth Panda]

Originally Posted by Myrnalene

I didn't say fuckall about you ever commenting to her before. So.

Right you just quoted me and then, in the next sentence said : "you're looking for posts by your favorite snark targets."

My mistake.

[ZPG Zealot]

Originally Posted by RedFury

Courtesan

Before that, lack of vocabulary. Afterward, hypocrisy. To this day.

The elite prostitutes that we think of as courtesans who had more sexual freedom than other woman of their time represented only a rarefied top tier of their profession. The sexual freedom in the West today is a result of better birth control technology and most importantly, changes in marital patterns whereby a woman no longer has to be a virgin in order to make a good marriage.

For all of your guys who think it is oh, so terrible that you have to be careful not to say something threatening or demeaning to a woman, consider the alternatives. No conversation at all unless you are married to her or her kinsmen beat you up for "insulting" their relative. Or she assumes any attempt at getting her attention is an attack and tasers you.

[Chessic Sense]

Originally Posted by Gyrate

I just wanted to compliment everyone on how well this thread is going.

Perhaps you don't realize, but some of us actually like trainwrecks.

[Kolga]

Originally Posted by Broomstick

Which is not to say Mr. Creeper is a rapist - it's entirely possible he wouldn't rape a woman, he's just skeevy and so persistent as to be threatening. Then again, maybe he would. That's part of the problem, I just don't know. He DID leave when told to do so, but he also came back.

Schrodinger's Rapist. I'm sure the usual suspects will accuse the author of over-reacting and being a feminist bitch.

[Hbns]

Originally Posted by Jragon

I do want to mention that I never said that calling the cops was wrong, I simply said it's not guaranteed to do anything, and could make it worse.

This was way to amicable of a response for the pit.

I agree that there are lots of shades of gray with any situation. I think that in nearly every situation that someone leaves you fearful, shaken, and concerned they may return to do it again a police report should be filed. However I understand this is Broomstick's choice to make.

[Vinyl Turnip]

Originally Posted by Kolga

I'm sure the usual suspects will accuse the author of over-reacting and being a feminist bitch.

The incessant strawman/well-poisoning arguments that surface whenever this topic comes up are really tiresome, and run counter to your desire to be taken seriously.

Any more and I may lose my erection.

[RTFirefly]

Originally Posted by Bricker

all joking aside, I guess I'm a little confused about why this upset you so much. Yes, it's clear the man has no social skills and no real sense of propriety. And I understand that those are danger signs that you'd be foolish to simply forget.

But at the same time, what I hear you relating is not, as I think about it, fearsome or threatening contact. It's simply boorish and rude.

I know that as a man, I'm not a target of this kind of attention as a general rule. But I am honestly not seeing the justification for the literal naseous reaction you had.

Jaw. Floor.

Bricker, I see that you've been more than adequately reamed out in this thread (not that it did much good), so I won't pile on. But jeez, I had no idea you were this clueless.

Hell, if I'd been in Broomstick's position, and a woman had gone after me the way this guy came after her, the only reason I'd feel more annoyed than scared is that a man can generally handle it if a woman physically attacks him. But I'd be kinda nervous just the same, in a world where firearms are all too abundant.

[CarnalK]

Originally Posted by RTFirefly

Jaw. Floor.

Bricker, I see that you've been more than adequately reamed out in this thread (not that it did much good), so I won't pile on. But jeez, I had no idea you were this clueless.

Hell, if I'd been in Broomstick's position, and a woman had gone after me the way this guy came after her, the only reason I'd feel more annoyed than scared is that a man can generally handle it if a woman physically attacks him. But I'd be kinda nervous just the same, in a world where firearms are all too abundant.

I think he has a point. Grossed out or scared is one thing, "three showers and still not clean" is a-fucking-nother. If this kind of thing happens all the time, as we are told through this thread, isn't there a little immunity to the shock?

[CarnalK]

Originally Posted by MsWhatsit

And yeah, if I were the lone woman working at the store I'd be very wigged out about it.

Don't think she works there alone, at least not always. The story was that the manager told her to just chuck the sandals the first time the guy came in.

[DiosaBellissima]

Originally Posted by CarnalK

I think he has a point. Grossed out or scared is one thing, "three showers and still not clean" is a-fucking-nother. If this kind of thing happens all the time, as we are told through this thread, isn't there a little immunity to the shock?

You'd think so. Really, I mean that. You'd think you'd eventually start to get used to it. . .and sometimes you do. There will be times where I think I've gotten fed up with this nonsense and am Miss Tough Woman Rawr Forget Those Scumbag Assholes!!!!!

But then one will sneak up on you. Maybe it's a guy following you to your car. Maybe it's the guy in Target who strokes your thigh as you walk by to get paper towels. Maybe it's the random guy at the grocery store calling you fat ugly lesbian bitch because you politely refused his phone number. There's no rhyme or reason to it, but that incident will leave you crying in your car when the last 10 didn't. I can't explain why for everybody, but for me it's because you feel totally freaking helpless. It's hard to accept that there's nothing I can ever do to make this shit stop. To know that when it comes down to it, that 6'2'' 250 lb man could basically do whatever he wanted to me if he were so inclined and that out there someone would blame me. The fact that this has been happening on a regular basis since I was 12 years old- hell, it's the one constant in my life, regardless of what I do or change in my life.

So that's why, even though I've learned to deal with this idiots much better than when I was a child, I still get shaken up from time to time. Feeling powerless is terrifying and if you haven't been in that situation with the regularity that a lot of women do, you couldn't ever possibly understand. I get it, that's a cop out statement, but there's no better way to explain it.

[CarnalK]

Well, believe it or not - men sometimes feel scared and powerless. Men are actually more likely to be physically attacked, also.

Broomstick is an older woman than you Dio, and I just would have thought she had a slightly thicker hide than to be sick for days, feeling dirty after 3 showers, etc.

[Myrnalene]

Originally Posted by CarnalK

Broomstick is an older woman than you Dio, and I just would have thought she had a slightly thicker hide than to be sick for days, feeling dirty after 3 showers, etc.

So....you didn't read her post at all then. Or if you did, you didn't listen to a single thing she said.

Ok!

[CarnalK]

Care to elucidate?

[kaylasdad99]

Originally Posted by Darth Panda

Right you just quoted me and then, in the next sentence said : "you're looking for posts by your favorite snark targets."

My mistake.

Yeah, it probably is your mistake. She said

I really don't think some of you are even actually reading and responding to the whole conversation, you're looking for posts by your favorite snark targets to fap about.

That can be defended as a valid observation, one that she wanted to make about the thread as a whole. The fact that she put it after a quote of a somewhat vapid post you made doesn't necessarily make it an accusation that you specifically targeted even sven; she could easily have meant it simply as an example of a post that betrays only a superficial familiarity with the content of the thread.

[Myrnalene]

Originally Posted by CarnalK

Care to elucidate?

You asked if that Boomstick should be used to creepy attentions from men by now.

Diosa shared some of her painful personal experiences with you, to try and make you understand that sometimes you get used to it. Sometimes you don't. Sometimes you think you are used to it and then something happens that make you realize it's still upsetting, because:

Originally Posted by Diosa

The fact that this has been happening on a regular basis since I was 12 years old- hell, it's the one constant in my life, regardless of what I do or change in my life.

If you really gave a fuck about getting an answer to your question instead of bagging on the OP, there it is, and it couldn't be any clearer. The fact that you completely dismissed it and responded "well. she's old" shows that you weren't even worthy of the good faith effort Diosa expended by giving you an honest answer.

kaylasdad99, that's about right, thanks.

[CyclopticXander]

I'm so timid and scared of being perceived as an asshole perv that I usually fumble and drop the change a female cashier hands me because I don't want her to think I am seeking to even brush her hand.

[CarnalK]

Originally Posted by Myrnalene

If you really gave a fuck about getting an answer to your question instead of bagging on the OP, there it is, and it couldn't be any clearer. The fact that you completely dismissed it and responded "well. she's old" shows that you weren't even worthy of the good faith effort Diosa expended by giving you an honest answer.

meh. "Sometime you get used to it, sometimes you don't" is kinda meaningless. Nobody should need a dozen showers to get clean again because some nutbar went off on them - doesn't even lay a hand on them. I just think that while this would have been creepy at the time it shouldn't be that hard to get over. But you're pulling the "You don't understand, you're not a woman" card. If something like this is going to make you sick for days, start carrying a tazer or something. Then you'll be super brave and safe, like us men.

[Darth Panda]

Originally Posted by kaylasdad99

she could easily have meant it simply as an example of a post that betrays only a superficial familiarity with the content of the thread.

Right, except for the fact that not only have I never made a comment toward even sven, but I've also read every post in this thread and made a post much earlier in the thread that commented on several prior posts - meaning that of the 2 items (superficial familiarity and just looking to pick on a favored target), neither could be true.

You are, of course, correct in that she may have made that statement with absolutely no intention of having it refer to me in any way, even though she quoted me prior to making it - but one typically assumes that if you quote someone, and then make a statement about the way in which people post, that that statement refers to (or at least relates to) the person quoted. But only she really knows what she meant to imply, and I acknowledge that.

[shantih]

I've been following this discussion from the sidelines with interest. I find it telling that the general reactions of the men and women have been so different. It reminds me of a quote from Gavin de Becker's The Gift of Fear (highly recommended read):

“It is understandable that the perspectives of men and women on safety are so different--men and women live in different worlds...at core, men are afraid women will laugh at them, while at core, women are afraid men will kill them.”

[MsWhatsit]

Originally Posted by CarnalK

Nobody should need a dozen showers to get clean again because some nutbar went off on them

Well, nobody should be a douchebag on the Internet either, but sometimes things don't go the way they should.

[CarnalK]

Originally Posted by MsWhatsit

Well, nobody should be a douchebag on the Internet either, but sometimes things don't go the way they should.

My my, such a cutting observation. I do believe I need a shower.

[Paranoid Randroid]

Originally Posted by CyclopticXander

I'm so timid and scared of being perceived as an asshole perv that I usually fumble and drop the change a female cashier hands me because I don't want her to think I am seeking to even brush her hand.

It’s kind of funny. Note that I don’t go that far; in most scenarios I interact with women in a fashion indistinguishable (to me) from how I interact with men. But if I’m just gazing forwardwhile waiting for the bus, say, and a woman approaches on the sidewalk, I can feel myself start to squirm as I try to avoid looking like I’m staring at her. Apparently my subconscious doesn’t worry about looking as if I’m staring at men.

Or if I’m stuck alone with a woman I don’t know very well, I start to wonder — maybe irrationally — if she thinks I’m going to hurt her. Uncomfortable. I suppose it helps that I avoid interacting with anyone I don’t know, whatever the gender, so I’ve avoided causing apparent fearfulness …

Well, that’s enough slice ‘o life from a moderately feminist male. Back to your regularly scheduled Un-Empathetic Rapist Enablers vs. Shrill Alarmist Harpies: Clash of the Strawmen.

[MsWhatsit]

Originally Posted by CarnalK

My my, such a cutting observation. I do believe I need a shower.

It was pretty good, wasn't it? I'm feeling smug. I'm glad we shared this moment together.

[Myrnalene]

Originally Posted by Darth Panda

Right, except for the fact that not only have I never made a comment toward even sven, but I've also read every post in this thread and made a post much earlier in the thread that commented on several prior posts - meaning that of the 2 items (superficial familiarity and just looking to pick on a favored target), neither could be true.

Homg.

1) If you read every post in this thread, then it boggles me how you could be so completely unfamiliar with the context of the conversation as to misrepresent sven's post the way you did. Her post made complete sense in response to the previous discussion and was not a strawman. If it makes you happy, I will rescind my earlier remark and simply assume that you are not capable of following along with posts on a message board and correctly interpreting their meaning.

2) I never said you had ever spoken to even sven before. Never said that. Stop harping on it. Never said it. Quite a few people have bugs up their butt about sven and are incapable of reading anything she says without the filter of their ancient irritations with her. See here. If you are not one of those people, I withdraw my implication that you were, and please see above about not capable, etc.

[Broomstick]

Originally Posted by CarnalK

Well, believe it or not - men sometimes feel scared and powerless. Men are actually more likely to be physically attacked, also.

Men are more likely to be mugged/beat up or killed - if you count sexual assault no, they're not more likely to be physically attacked. To some degree it's apples and oranges here.

As I noted upthread - the men in real life that I shared this with who had also, themselves, been attacked while at work just trying to do their job believed me without question. And two of them offered me weapons.

No one is disputing that men can feel "scared and powerless". However, women feel that way more often than men.

Broomstick is an older woman than you Dio, and I just would have thought she had a slightly thicker hide than to be sick for days, feeling dirty after 3 showers, etc.

Even us dried-up old hags with rhino-hide skin have our weak moments. I didn't feel sick "for days", though yes, I felt physically ick for about 36 hours after this bozo showed up again. Upon reflection, I think that was due to a similarity to how a much more serious incident in the past started before ramping up to an actual attempted rape.

Fortunately, my "weekend" runs Monday-Wednesday right now so I've had a couple days to get the hell over it before going back to work tomorrow.

As for the showering - hey, everyone handles stress differently, right? It's probably a healthier approach than, say, getting stinking, puking drunk over it, right?

[CarnalK]

I didn't mean you were a dried up hag - just that Diosa is only a couple years out of college, while you've been around the block, so to speak. The reason that the 3 shower thing stood out for me is that's sort of the "movie" response to an actual rape, so it seemed a little out of proportion. You definitely should have got drunk instead. :P

[YogSosoth]

Originally Posted by CyclopticXander

I'm so timid and scared of being perceived as an asshole perv that I usually fumble and drop the change a female cashier hands me because I don't want her to think I am seeking to even brush her hand.

Just don't use change, problem solved

[Ibanez]

Men in prisons are raped constantly, viciously ganged raped. The institutions, guards, politicians on the outside do nothing about it.

I'm a man. In my early twenties I worked as a bartender I stood 5'10", 140 lbs. at the time I had one customer come in, a man well over 6' at least 200lbs. He came in ordered a salad and a beer, I thought he was a little off because he kept his sunglasses on. He was my only customer at the bar at the time. Once he was finsihed he ordered another salad, sunglasses still on. The he told me "You know you're fucking gorgeous" He takes off his sunglasses and he's wearing eyeliner and adds. "I'd love to have my way with you".

My back was turned to him at the time, but I was looking at him through the mirror when he said this. I turned around and told him to finish his salad and drink, keep his mouth shut and then leave. "I'd love to fuck you" he said

I went to get management. By the time I got back with back up he was gone. But he had taken his beer and smashed it into his salad breaking the plate. I was upset, my coworkers male and female thought it was funny, ya funny.

Just thought I'd share that to dispell the notion that only women have fears about being sexually assaulted and that it's only women that receive lewd remarks . It upset me for a couple of hours, but got over it. I suggest you do as well. You're chances of getting assaulted by this perv, is pretty low. You're chance of getting in a car accident is probably higher.

[DiosaBellissima]

Originally Posted by Ibanez

Just thought I'd share that to dispell the notion that only women have fears about being sexually assaulted and that it's only women that receive lewd remarks . It upset me for a couple of hours, but got over it. I suggest you do as well. You're chances of getting assaulted by this perv, is pretty low. You're chance of getting in a car accident is probably higher.

I'm not trying to diminish your experience at all- after all, your encounter was with a total douchebag creeper, no doubt. But I want you to stop for a moment and consider something: what if things like what that guy did happened to you once a month from the age of 12 years old on? Every few times, the guy actually reaches across and fondles you. And a handful of times in there, the guy leaves, but waits for you in the parking lot and follows you home. Let's also assume it's not the same guy every time, but a new and exciting creeper you get to deal with.

If I had only been aggressively hit on once, I also would just shrug my shoulders and say I need to get over it- after all, that whole situation is an anomaly in my life. But that's not the case for me or many other women- this is something we live with every single day from puberty until society deems us too shriveled and old to try to bang. I am a perfectly normal woman who has been fondled or groped by strangers many, many times in my life. I've had more than my fair share of strange men tell me how bad they want to fuck me. I've had men follow me around the grocery store and to my car. I've called the police to come protect me more times than anyone should need to.

Your prison example I don't disagree with, except to say that obviously what occurs in prison is different than the experiences of the vast majority of American people on the day to day.

[kaylasdad99]

Originally Posted by Darth Panda

You are, of course, correct in that she may have made that statement with absolutely no intention of having it refer to me in any way, even though she quoted me prior to making it - but one typically assumes that if you quote someone, and then make a statement about the way in which people post, that that statement refers to (or at least relates to) the person quoted. But only she really knows what she meant to imply, and I acknowledge that.

After twelve years, one tends to give up expectations of linearity in threads that go on this long.

[kaylasdad99]

Originally Posted by CyclopticXander

I'm so timid and scared of being perceived as an asshole perv that I usually fumble and drop the change a female cashier hands me because I don't want her to think I am seeking to even brush her hand.

And having her think you're seeking to look up her skirt while you pick up the coins is BETTER?

Note: the above was a joke. I realize that in a change-processing transaction there will typically be a counter between the vendor and the buyer that makes such considerations impractical.

[Ibanez]

Originally Posted by DiosaBellissima

I'm not trying to diminish your experience at all- after all, your encounter was with a total douchebag creeper, no doubt. But I want you to stop for a moment and consider something: what if things like what that guy did happened to you once a month from the age of 12 years old on? Every few times, the guy actually reaches across and fondles you. And a handful of times in there, the guy leaves, but waits for you in the parking lot and follows you home. Let's also assume it's not the same guy every time, but a new and exciting creeper you get to deal with.

If I had only been aggressively hit on once, I also would just shrug my shoulders and say I need to get over it- after all, that whole situation is an anomaly in my life. But that's not the case for me or many other women- this is something we live with every single day from puberty until society deems us too shriveled and old to try to bang. I am a perfectly normal woman who has been fondled or groped by strangers many, many times in my life. I've had more than my fair share of strange men tell me how bad they want to fuck me. I've had men follow me around the grocery store and to my car. I've called the police to come protect me more times than anyone should need to.

I don't disagree that it happens to women much more than men. Did these assualts that happend to you occur in the U.S. ? I'm not trying to find an excuse or anything for the assaults, but I know in certain countries in Europe, ass grabbing is pretty common.

I don't know what these men are thinking , do they think by scaring a woman, assaulting her it's going to turn them on ? They're idiots. Kick them in the nuts .

[araminty]

Originally Posted by Ibanez

I don't disagree that it happens to women much more than men. Did these assualts that happend to you occur in the U.S. ? I'm not trying to find an excuse or anything for the assaults, but I know in certain countries in Europe, ass grabbing is pretty common.

I was never, not once, sexually harassed as a young woman living in four different cities in Australia. I backpacked around Europe alone for seven months, and was treated respectfully throughout. Upon moving to California three years ago, I have been harassed half a dozen times, including three men who grabbed me and spat in my face.

[Left Hand of Dorkness]

Originally Posted by araminty

I was never, not once, sexually harassed as a young woman living in four different cities in Australia. I backpacked around Europe alone for seven months, and was treated respectfully throughout. Upon moving to California three years ago, I have been harassed half a dozen times, including three men who grabbed me and spat in my face.

Weirdly, there are four incidents in my life that I consider sexual harassment/assault, two of which would land the assaulter in jail (the one I described earlier was not, of course). One of the less-serious, and one of the more-serious, occurred in Europe, a continent on which I've spent less than two months total.

Maybe it's different for guys after all....

[Sateryn76]

Originally Posted by araminty

I was never, not once, sexually harassed as a young woman living in four different cities in Australia. I backpacked around Europe alone for seven months, and was treated respectfully throughout. Upon moving to California three years ago, I have been harassed half a dozen times, including three men who grabbed me and spat in my face.

I live in America, in the same county as Broomstick, and while I've had to deal with some creepy guys, I've never, ever been groped or crudely propositioned by a man. If I was, I'd break their fucking hand and call the police.

I'm slim, average-ly attractive, etc. It's rather bizarre to me to see the reports here, and it seems bizarre to freak out for days over this incident.

Since we're trading anecdotes and all.

[Vinyl Turnip]

Originally Posted by araminty

Upon moving to California three years ago, I have been harassed half a dozen times, including three men who grabbed me and spat in my face.

I honestly don't know what to make of claims like this, or Diosa's apparent inability to walk from her front door to her mailbox without being group-groped. Three different men spat in your face, on three separate occasions? Or was it a bunch of gangbangers who traffic in expectorants? You do realize it's not normal for someone to spit in your face, right?

[mister nyx]

Originally Posted by Chessic Sense

Perhaps you don't realize, but some of us actually like trainwrecks.

Imagine if there were a community in which it weren't an inevitable trainwreck if a woman complained about being subjected to unwanted and inappropriate sexual aggression.

Originally Posted by Vinyl Turnip

The incessant strawman/well-poisoning arguments that surface whenever this topic comes up are really tiresome, and run counter to your desire to be taken seriously.

Psst, dude: It's not actually well-poisoning when it's a response to the actual things people are actually saying. JSYK

Originally Posted by CarnalK

Men are actually more likely to be physically attacked, also.

I wonder if this is actually true. I guess I'm not super familiar with the statistics. Odds are between 1/6 and 1/5 of women will be raped over the course of their lifetime; are the odds that high of a man being victim of a violent crime? I kind of doubt that but I guess don't know; I know several women who have been the victim of rape and several more who were the victim of attempted rape; I can't think of any guy I know who was the victim of a violent crime.

Originally Posted by Vinyl Turnip

I honestly don't know what to make of claims like this, or Diosa's apparent inability to walk from her front door to her mailbox without being group-groped. Three different men spat in your face, on three separate occasions? Or was it a bunch of gangbangers who traffic in expectorants? You do realize it's not normal for someone to spit in your face, right?

It's always helpful to have a man's level-headed evaluation of the situation, to make clear the difference between these crazy women's reports of the situation and what must have actually happened. I hope you'll continue to translate between the estrogen-influenced rantings of these ladies so that the rest of us can understand what actually happened.

[lisacurl]

Originally Posted by Vinyl Turnip

I honestly don't know what to make of claims like this, or Diosa's apparent inability to walk from her front door to her mailbox without being group-groped. Three different men spat in your face, on three separate occasions? Or was it a bunch of gangbangers who traffic in expectorants? You do realize it's not normal for someone to spit in your face, right?

You do realize that last sentence is condescending as hell, right? I had no problem interpreting that post as meaning araminty was grabbed by three men in one incident and one or more of those men spat in her face during that incident.

[Dave Hartwick]

Originally Posted by mister nyx

Psst, dude: It's not actually well-poisoning when it's a response to the actual things people are actually saying. JSYK

Maybe not, in some of the cases in this thread. But you implied that I was calling Broomstick a liar. Not so. I figure she probably was harassed-- it's not like she's claiming that she was sexually harassed by Julius Caesar while walking on Jupiter. I also think she's been acting like a condescending idiot.

[mister nyx]

Originally Posted by Dave Hartwick

Maybe not, in some of the cases in this thread. But you implied that I was calling Broomstick a liar. Not so. I figure she probably was harassed-- it's not like she's claiming that she was sexually harassed by Julius Caesar while walking on Jupiter. I also think she's been acting like a condescending idiot.

I'm not sure what exactly I've said about you (I don't remember names particularly well). Nothing Broomstick has said makes me think she's an idiot, though -- in fact, quite to the contrary. And if she's condescending, well, given the sort of people she's in a position to condescend to, judging by this thread, well, I would have to say she's in the right.

[Cat Whisperer]

We're almost there, guys! We can do it! Come on, Page Seven!

[curlcoat]

I have always known that a great many men in this world think women are very much less as humans than males, but to see it here, over and over, from posters I thought were normal is very disappointing. I guess women should just shoot first and ask questions later, since it doesn't even matter if she is young, good looking or well built. I am none of those and I still have to put up with this bullshit.

[Dave Hartwick]

Originally Posted by curlcoat

I have always known that a great many men in this world think women are very much less as humans than males, but to see it here, over and over, from posters I thought were normal is very disappointing. I guess women should just shoot first and ask questions later, since it doesn't even matter if she is young, good looking or well built. I am none of those and I still have to put up with this bullshit.

Further proof that a person can be both the victim of harassment and an idiot with a granite skull. You have my sympathy on both counts.

[Lynn Bodoni]

Originally Posted by Ibanez

I don't disagree that it happens to women much more than men. Did these assualts that happend to you occur in the U.S. ? I'm not trying to find an excuse or anything for the assaults, but I know in certain countries in Europe, ass grabbing is pretty common.

I don't know what these men are thinking , do they think by scaring a woman, assaulting her it's going to turn them on ? They're idiots. Kick them in the nuts .

Most of the creepering that's happened to me has happened in the US. I lived in Spain for a couple of years, and I had some creeps come onto me in that country, too (this was mostly in and around Torrejon, a town close to Madrid). In Spain, most of the creeps figured that I was American because I used to go around carrying a knapsack with a US flag embroidered on it, and they had the idea that all American women were sluts who would get it on with ANYONE.

Anyway. Suggestive talk and even ass grabbing is pretty common in the US, too, though the time and place will vary the results. I've seen websites dedicated to posting pics of guys exposing themselves on public trains, buses, and subways, and also pics of guys who grope women on the same public transportation. In some cases, a guy is recognized and even gets charged. The problem is, most of these guys go for plausible deniability...they'll "accidentally" brush a woman's butt or tit, and if they're called on it, well, the place was crowded. Or the bus or train is so crowded that a woman can't tell just WHICH guy grabbed her butt.

When women (and men) are targets of unwanted sexual attention, we don't know if the offender is going to just make a few unwanted comments and leave if rebuffed, or if refusal is going to get the offender to ramp up his (or her) actions. And this is why the OP was bothered. If she KNEW that the guy would go if she told him to leave, then I imagine that she wouldn't have been nearly as scared and disgusted. But her experience has taught her that while some guys will go, others will get even more aggressive if refused. See, it's one thing for someone to flirt with a clerk, and ask to give a phone number. It's quite another thing for someone to CONTINUE the attention, INSIST on leaving the number even after the clerk has made it clear that she (he) isn't interested in a sexual relationship. And having the guy come back the next day and bitch that the OP didn't call him moved him out of creeper territory and straight into the "this guy has entitlement issues and does not recognize her boundaries" category. This guy refused to acknowledge her "no", not just once, but several times.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Being creepy isn't about looks, but about actions. This guy was creepy when he said that he didn't mind that the OP was married. And then he went on from there.

And had the OP actually kicked him in the nuts, or otherwise physically assaulted him, then she'd probably be in jail or bonded out right now. Because no matter what he said to her, as long as he didn't actually touch her, she isn't legally allowed to use physical force on him.

[curlcoat]

Originally Posted by Dave Hartwick

Further proof that a person can be both the victim of harassment and an idiot with a granite skull. You have my sympathy on both counts.

Don't waste any sympathy on me since apparently you are the one in serious need of it. Any man who assumes that a woman is lying about having been harassed is dirt.

[DiosaBellissima]

Originally Posted by curlcoat

Don't waste any sympathy on me since apparently you are the one in serious need of it. Any man who assumes that a woman is lying about having been harassed is dirt.

I'd say any man thinking the women describing the situations in this thread (none of which appear to seem too outlandish to many of the women posting here) is lying, is just naive as hell and at worst ignorant. I wish I could live the life of the person who has so little experience with these situations that they'd seem made up to me. Unfortunately, this is my reality and the reality of many other women.

But really, shit like this?

Originally Posted by Vinyl Turnip

I honestly don't know what to make of claims like this, or Diosa's apparent inability to walk from her front door to her mailbox without being group-groped.

It takes a special kind of scumbag to make light of a 15 year old girl getting pushed down to the sidewalk by some skeever, felt up, and kissed. Or fuck, to make light of any of the harassment presented by folks in this thread. See, this is a perfect example of what many of us are talking about here: when you do say something about something awful happening, morons will line up to tell you that you're a liar. (THAT is exactly why after I struggled away and ran home as fast as I could that night, I didn't tell anybody-- I believed that somehow it was my fault and no one would believe me.) But hey, I'm sure all us dumb broads are just man hating feminazis who sit around and make up stories to try to bring down the poor men around us. Sad lives we lead, I know.

For clarity, so us women don't go around wantonly accusing you gentlemen of bad behavior when you were just "accidentally" brushing your erect dick on me while passing at the bar to order a beer (and making full, non blinking eye contact with me throughout), let me quote myself from two pages ago, since this item went entirely unaddressed:

Let's run through some events:

1.Guy hits on her.
Guy gets rejected.
2.Guy hits on her.
Guy gets rejected.
3. Guy hits on her again.
More rejection.
4. Guy more aggressively hits on her- being more overt that his intentions are sexual.
More rejection.
5. Guy grabs her around the neck.
She fights-- sort of a physical rejection.
6. Guy starts ripping off her clothes.
She fights back and screams for help. More rejection.
7. Guy sticks his dick in her.
She screams and tries to get away.


At what point in that paradigm is a woman allowed to be reasonably scared of the guy or see him as a threat/potential threat? Genuine question. I'm curious how we're supposed to know exactly when it's fair to judge Mr. Creeper.

[Nava]

Originally Posted by LurkerInNJ

If it was threatening then why did you give him your attention and tell him about your marital status and listen to him while he talked? You could have have stared over his shoulder with a disinterested look and cut him off with a quick "I need to get back to work. Have you made a decision about your sandals?" If he keeps going on, you walk away. There is no need to engage these people in a discussion, and their talking AT you is their idea of a conversation.

He came back? A simple flat "We're done here Sir" with no face or eye contact the second he opens his mouth and walk away.

That doesn't work. They're in your face... well, no, more like their chest is in your face... you can't get out, you can't call for help, your brain is into fight-or-flight mode but there's nowhere to flee plus he's bigger than you and faster than you and you can't flee and you can't fight, so you try to talk your way out - because it is the only option you've got.