Humans as Carnivores ?

[coffeecat]

Originally Posted by JillGat

Vegans can get enough B12 if they eat organic produce and don't wash it too well. Manure contains lots of micronutrients.

I've heard that before, but I don't see how it can be the case. To get your daily requirement of a nutrient, you generally have to eat something on the order of a serving. A light dusting of manure that you might not notice would be measured in milligrams

[qazwart]

Human beings make terrible vegetarians. We usually only eat the seeds and fruits of plants and leave almost everything else behind. The vast array of grasses and leaves are completely inedible for us. The problem with seeds and fruits is that they're terribly seasonal. They're usually available during the late summer and fall, so they're hard to find most of the year.

The vast majority of vegetable calories are tied un in inedible (for us) grasses and leaves. The solution is really quite simple. You have a bunch of wildebeests eat the inedible fibrous grasses for you. Let them turn it into nutritious body parts. Then you eat the wildebeests.

Chimpanzees, our closest genetic relative are also omnivorous. They chow down regularly on insects, especially calorie rich termites. They hunt and eat animals down with gusto. And use the meat to curry favor with other members of their troop. And, you can look at the archeological evidence. Plenty of Paleolithic butcher sites abound filled with splintered animal bones and broken stone tools. Those animals didn't just butcher themselves.

You want to argue that you can be healthy on a vegetarian diet, I can't argue with you. You want to say that you're a vegetarian for moral reasons, more power to you.

However, eating meat is an activity that humans have been doing even before Homo Sapiens first appeared.

[mangeorge]

Originally Posted by Captain Amazing

Anyone who as a kid has picked up and caught bugs, frogs, snakes, lizards, etc., will know you don't have to create weapons to hunt them.

Hmmm. Is the twig a chimp uses to drag termites from a stump a weapon?
Probably, huh?
Speaking of chimps, ones who have been trained to box are required to license their hands as deadly weapons.
Okay, that's silly. But my query about the twig is serious.

[postpic200]

Originally Posted by SnakeBabe

Herbivorous animals have these small teeth. And really, try using the small little ones you have to rip thru the skin of a cow and see how far you get


Try eating it like a true carnivore. Do not cook it, no seasoning or picking the parts of the animal you want to eat. A true carnivore eats the eyes, hair, intestines, anus- Everything. Try eating road kill fresh off the pavement. A true carnivore does and can digest it without harm.



I dont get this one

I don't even need teeth, pick up rock, smash, eat, repeat. A human with a rock can break any bone open to get at the marrow.

And you can eat raw, uncooked meat, eye, etc. I remember reading about a man http://news.google.com/newspapers?ni...g=1343,3705183 who had to eat eyes, etc to survive.

We as human are omnivores, we can digest plants and animals with no problem. we have the enzymes to break down flesh and plant matter.

Odds are it was our ancestors ability to make tool and get at marrow, to take down very big prey that gave us our big brains.

[Irishman]

Originally Posted by Powers

Yes, metaphorically. There's a difference. All they mean is that they really like to eat meat.

And that they don't really like vegetables.

Originally Posted by JillGat

Vegans can get enough B12 if they eat organic produce and don't wash it too well. Manure contains lots of micronutrients.

You can get plenty of B12 licking turds, but that's not on my list of things to do.

Originally Posted by coffeecat

A light dusting of manure that you might not notice would be measured in milligrams

According to a post earlier in this thread, the requirement for B12 is on the order of micrograms. That 10^-3 smaller.

[coffeecat]

Originally Posted by Irishman

According to a post earlier in this thread, the requirement for B12 is on the order of micrograms. That 10^-3 smaller.

No doubt, but you'd have to eat ounces or pounds of good, wholesome food to get those few micrograms. How nourishing can shit be?

[postpic200]

Originally Posted by SnakeBabe

The animals care.
Your choice subjects 10 billion land animals a year to life in hellish conditions that if we subjected a dog to we would go to jail. If you dont know watch this video

Having seen that video many, many times, some of the video is very disturbing, but in most cases farms well run, clean. Those that are not quickly go out of business. because after all it's a business. Yes any farm suffers losses, but with each animal lost, that's cash out of their pocket. So it's in their best interest to keep each animal health.

But by the same token if I show you videos of human or animal waste being put on crops http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcKHDXLmlLw

or human sewage

http://www.sundaymercury.net/news/mi...6331-21412761/

They spread that over the crops they grow. How about a nice video of children eating a salad, with the words grown with sewage over it. Then some sinister music as a video of waste being spread over a crop, with the caption, "Do you want your child eating sewage?"

If you don't want to eat meat, fine, but to paint farms with that wide of a brush is unfair.

[BallinP0ck3t]

First off,
All respect. Its a tricky topic, being that yes we can and probably will do anything we feel like as humans, cause we can get away(for a time)

There was a comment a while back saying we've been happily eating meat for 2 million yrs or something. We have eaten meat for a long time yes.. But i would not say happily.

Also, to me growing up and enjoying cooked and seasoned meat thoroughly can relate to its addictive qualities. I see no reason to base ones decision to eat meat on this. I personally find it flat out disgusting and repulsive that we tear apart animals and consume them. Its pretty foul. I have a strong stomach.. Its not about that. Its about why would this living walking creature be my food? More to come..

[BallinP0ck3t]

I cant figure out why we humans are eating meat. It blows my mind.

[Fear Itself]

Yet you don't mind eating the poor living plants. Once you start excluding food sources on the basis of being alive, it sounds pretty silly to say you will kill and eat living plants, but not living animals.

[mangeorge]

Originally Posted by Fear Itself

Yet you don't mind eating the poor living plants. Once you start excluding food sources on the basis of being alive, it sounds pretty silly to say you will kill and eat living plants, but not living animals.

Many people say just that to vegetarians, but come on, there is a large difference between chickens and potatoes.
My indecision is to whether or not insects are really meat.

[Fear Itself]

Originally Posted by mangeorge

Many people say just that to vegetarians, but come on, there is a large difference between chickens and potatoes.

Not if your objection is on killing and eating living things for food. Vegetarianism based on avoiding killing for food fails on that basis.

[mangeorge]

Originally Posted by Fear Itself

Not if your objection is on killing and eating living things for food. Vegetarianism based on avoiding killing for food fails on that basis.

When I was a vegetarian, back in the day, the practice was based on not killing animals for any reason. Including for leather and fur. Exploiting animals for labor, eggs, and milk etc depended on one's personai opinion and how the critters were treated. For example, eggs were largely okay as long as the were truly "free range" and allowed to retire from laying into old age and natural death. Ths same went for dairy cows, but I none of them.
I met a couple in New Mexico who would obtain wool only by combing.
BTW; we were well aware that our chicken friends ate bugs. No problem.

[Captain Amazing]

Originally Posted by BallinP0ck3t

I cant figure out why we humans are eating meat. It blows my mind.

They like the taste. I think that's really what it comes down to. People eat meat because they like the taste.

[Fear Itself]

Originally Posted by mangeorge

When I was a vegetarian, back in the day, the practice was based on not killing animals for any reason.

My only point is, a hypothetical person who did not kill anything for food could look at a vegetarian with the same disbelief that a vegetarian holds towards omnivores and carnivores.

[mangeorge]

Originally Posted by Fear Itself

My only point is, a hypothetical person who did not kill anything for food could look at a vegetarian with the same disbelief that a vegetarian holds towards omnivores and carnivores.

I was joining the conversation, not argueing.

[Michael63129]

Originally Posted by BallinP0ck3t

I cant figure out why we humans are eating meat. It blows my mind.

As mentioned previously, our closest relatives, chimpanzees, also eat meat, and the way they kill animals is probably a lot more painful. Check this out (chimps killing and eating a monkey).

[dropzone]

Originally Posted by mangeorge

For example, eggs were largely okay as long as the were truly "free range" and allowed to retire from laying into old age and natural death. Ths same went for dairy cows, but I none of them.

Does that actually happen in real life? On farms that do not go bankrupt in a few years because of all of the retirees they are supporting? Because IRL those chickens are nuggets, those cows are burgers, and the retirements are just stories to fool the people who want to believe them, like sending your elderly dog to live out his days on a farm upstate.

[XT]

Originally Posted by BallinP0ck3t

All respect. Its a tricky topic, being that yes we can and probably will do anything we feel like as humans, cause we can get away(for a time)

We can to a certain extent today...thus you have folks like Vegans who can, with a bit of work and effort, have a healthy diet without eating meat or other animal products at all. In the past, however, it wasn't a matter of personal belief or idiosyncratic behavior, but one of survival. We adapted to THAT environment, and in that environment meat was essential to our diet and to our survival.

Why this seemingly simple concept is beyond so many folks pushing their personal dietary choices and philosophy on the vast majority of humanity remains beyond me.

There was a comment a while back saying we've been happily eating meat for 2 million yrs or something. We have eaten meat for a long time yes.. But i would not say happily.

What do you base your assertion here that we were not happy? Would we have been happier as a species if we went extinct? Would that make us happy, collectively?

Also, to me growing up and enjoying cooked and seasoned meat thoroughly can relate to its addictive qualities.

Yeah, sort of like water, ehe? Ever gone through sever water withdrawal? 3 days without the stuff and you are history. I mean, maybe we've been drinking water for 2+ million years, but we haven't been happy about it or anything. I'm sure we'd have rather been drinking a nice ice cold beer or something instead of that nasty plain water stuff.

I see no reason to base ones decision to eat meat on this.

I see no reason to base ones decision not to eat meat on any of this either. It's a personal choice. Again, why is that so hard to understand? If you don't want to eat meat, well, I'm not stopping you...knock yourself out. I hope you are smart enough to monitor your diet to ensure you are getting everything you need, but in the end if you don't it's no sweat off my brow. I simply don't CARE what you eat, in the end. Why the converse is not true is, again, beyond me.

I personally find it flat out disgusting and repulsive that we tear apart animals and consume them.

That's nice. I don't like dwarf porn when it includes donkeys and nuns either, but I acknowledge that my tastes don't constitute proof that everyone believes what I believe. YOU think it's repulsive. I don't. I think, frankly, that some of the stuff Vegans eat is pretty freaking repulsive, and I wouldn't like to even step in it, let alone put it in my mouth. Different strokes for different folks though. To paraphrase Eddie Murphy, you go ahead and have that nasty tofurkey and squash...I'm going to have a nice steak here, rare, with a baked potato, my one concession to something vaguely vegetative.

I cant figure out why we humans are eating meat. It blows my mind.

Have you ever considered we eat it because not only are we adapted to eat meat, but that we LIKE the stuff? I mean, as a species obviously, since it obviously hinks you out. And have you ever considered that because YOU don't like something, that this is really meaningless when talking about the other 6+ billion humans bumping along on this rock? That you aren't, well, broadly representative of the rest of humanity with your aversions? Just a thought, once you put your mind back together for it's recent explosion, of course.

-XT

[JoelUpchurch]

Originally Posted by mangeorge

Many people say just that to vegetarians, but come on, there is a large difference between chickens and potatoes.
My indecision is to whether or not insects are really meat.

It seems to me to that the solution to your quandary would be to just breed a dumber chicken. How much brain does it actually take to eat and poop? A wild chicken is one thing, but a chicken that spends it's whole life in a cage? With enough research we could eventually come up with a headless chicken that it is fed intravenously and has only autonomic functions and not many of them.

The goal is to come up with a industrial process where meat can raised in a vat and get the animals out of the loop entirely.

[mangeorge]

Originally Posted by dropzone

Does that actually happen in real life? On farms that do not go bankrupt in a few years because of all of the retirees they are supporting? Because IRL those chickens are nuggets, those cows are burgers, and the retirements are just stories to fool the people who want to believe them, like sending your elderly dog to live out his days on a farm upstate.

I don't know about commercial farming. I'm talking about a few hens in the back yard who went into their pens and coops at night and the dairy cows were communal. I wasn't directly involved with the dairy except to get milk. If we had excess eggs we'd take them to the dairy and they'd give them to whoever wanted them.
BTW; we never (rarely) ate the eggs the same day they were laid. We rotated them in the fridge for a few days up to a week or longer.

[mangeorge]

Originally Posted by JoelUpchurch

It seems to me to that the solution to your quandary would be to just breed a dumber chicken. How much brain does it actually take to eat and poop? A wild chicken is one thing, but a chicken that spends it's whole life in a cage? With enough research we could eventually come up with a headless chicken that it is fed intravenously and has only autonomic functions and not many of them.

The goal is to come up with a industrial process where meat can raised in a vat and get the animals out of the loop entirely.

What? My quandry related to insects?
To your other comment, remember the myth about Mc Donald's frankenchicks?

[Chronos]

Quoth dropzone:

Does that actually happen in real life? On farms that do not go bankrupt in a few years because of all of the retirees they are supporting? Because IRL those chickens are nuggets, those cows are burgers, and the retirements are just stories to fool the people who want to believe them, like sending your elderly dog to live out his days on a farm upstate.

My mom raises a few chickens (mostly as a hobby, though she does get some small profit from them), and she really does let them "retire" after they stop laying. It doesn't make as much difference as you'd think, since they generally die of old age anyway pretty soon after when they stop laying. So she's paying for a little extra chicken feed (which is really cheap anyway), and she's not selling any meat from them (which wouldn't be worth as much as from young chickens anyway). Eggs from a "humane" farm which lets its hens retire would certainly cost more than from your standard factory farm, but not prohibitively so.

[penumbrage]

Originally Posted by mangeorge

Many people say just that to vegetarians, but come on, there is a large difference between chickens and potatoes.
My indecision is to whether or not insects are really meat.

Of course insects are animal protein, just like the microscopic animals that nobody can avoid ingesting.
We're all technically omnivores - it all depends on where you, personally, draw the line on the evolutionary advancement scale. Virtually all humans decline cannibalism, some refuse to eat the more advanced animals but will eat fish and shellfish, some won't eat any animal but will consume animal by-products and others are strict vegans that won't even touch eggs or milk (although I do wonder how they feel about breast feeding).
All vegetables seem to be fair game (I don't know of anyone who will eat fungus but not the more highly evolved fruits) in spite of all animals and plants playing their parts in the symphony of life and death, but even the most devout vegans don't seem to consider the mites or other tiny and microscopic animals in their food to be a violation of their ethics.

[mangeorge]

Originally Posted by Chronos

My mom raises a few chickens (mostly as a hobby, though she does get some small profit from them), and she really does let them "retire" after they stop laying. It doesn't make as much difference as you'd think, since they generally die of old age anyway pretty soon after when they stop laying. So she's paying for a little extra chicken feed (which is really cheap anyway), and she's not selling any meat from them (which wouldn't be worth as much as from young chickens anyway). Eggs from a "humane" farm which lets its hens retire would certainly cost more than from your standard factory farm, but not prohibitively so.

Thanks, Chronos. I was getting kinda lonely there for a bit.

[dropzone]

Originally Posted by mangeorge

I don't know about commercial farming. I'm talking about a few hens in the back yard who went into their pens and coops at night and the dairy cows were communal.

Originally Posted by Chronos

My mom raises a few chickens (mostly as a hobby, though she does get some small profit from them), and she really does let them "retire" after they stop laying.

Unless we all go back to being farmers this won't work on a universal scale. And probably not then. There are too damn many of us to feed us all without commercial farming, which in this case is anything more than subsistence farming.

[mangeorge]

Originally Posted by penumbrage

Of course insects are animal protein, just like the microscopic animals that nobody can avoid ingesting.
We're all technically omnivores - it all depends on where you, personally, draw the line on the evolutionary advancement scale. Virtually all humans decline cannibalism, some refuse to eat the more advanced animals but will eat fish and shellfish, some won't eat any animal but will consume animal by-products and others are strict vegans that won't even touch eggs or milk (although I do wonder how they feel about breast feeding).
All vegetables seem to be fair game (I don't know of anyone who will eat fungus but not the more highly evolved fruits) in spite of all animals and plants playing their parts in the symphony of life and death, but even the most devout vegans don't seem to consider the mites or other tiny and microscopic animals in their food to be a violation of their ethics.

Breast (human) milk doesn't exploit the provider. Well, it does somewhat, but the mother usually doesn't mind at all. In fact, I hear it's quite pleasurable for both.

[Chronos]

Quoth penumbrage:

All vegetables seem to be fair game (I don't know of anyone who will eat fungus but not the more highly evolved fruits) in spite of all animals and plants playing their parts in the symphony of life and death, but even the most devout vegans don't seem to consider the mites or other tiny and microscopic animals in their food to be a violation of their ethics.

There are such folks as fructarians, who will not only eat nothing but plants, but only plant parts (generally fruit) which can be harvested without harming the plant. It's almost impossible to stay healthy on such a diet, though.

Quoth dropzone:

Unless we all go back to being farmers this won't work on a universal scale. And probably not then. There are too damn many of us to feed us all without commercial farming, which in this case is anything more than subsistence farming.

I hope I didn't imply otherwise. There's no way we'd be able to support the entire population of the planet this way. But we can support that relatively small segment of the population that personally chooses to avoid factory-farming conditions.

[John W. Kennedy]

DNA research shows that mushrooms are more closely related to animals than to free plants.

[coffeecat]

Originally Posted by JoelUpchurch

It seems to me to that the solution to your quandary would be to just breed a dumber chicken. How much brain does it actually take to eat and poop? A wild chicken is one thing, but a chicken that spends it's whole life in a cage? With enough research we could eventually come up with a headless chicken that it is fed intravenously and has only autonomic functions and not many of them.

The goal is to come up with a industrial process where meat can raised in a vat and get the animals out of the loop entirely.

There's always the artificial meat animal in The Restaurant at the End of the Universe.

[penumbrage]

Originally Posted by mangeorge

Breast (human) milk doesn't exploit the provider. Well, it does somewhat, but the mother usually doesn't mind at all. In fact, I hear it's quite pleasurable for both.

That addresses the be-kind-to-animals vegans but I was curious what the position of the obviously-a-healthier-diet vegans is concerning breast milk.

Originally Posted by Chronos

There are such folks as fructarians, who will not only eat nothing but plants, but only plant parts (generally fruit) which can be harvested without harming the plant. It's almost impossible to stay healthy on such a diet, though.

They're just be-kind-to-plants vegans, I was merely pointing out that the inconsistency of phylum discrimination as to what can and can't be eaten (or what are and what are not animals) seems to be absent in the plant kingdom.

[Irishman]

Originally Posted by coffeecat

I see no reason to base ones decision not to eat meat on any of this either. It's a personal choice. Again, why is that so hard to understand? If you don't want to eat meat, well, I'm not stopping you...knock yourself out. I hope you are smart enough to monitor your diet to ensure you are getting everything you need, but in the end if you don't it's no sweat off my brow. I simply don't CARE what you eat, in the end. Why the converse is not true is, again, beyond me.

I do understand the motivation. If they think that creating suffering is wrong, then they desire to do things to reduce suffering. If they think about suffering including how commercial animals are farmed for food induces unnatural suffering, then they may be motivated to change those practices. Well, those practices are only in place because they are profitable, and because the vast majority of people aren't aware or don't care. So as someone who does care, they attempt to make people more aware of the practices, and argue that the only way to really change is to refuse to be part of the process. Stop people from eating commercially farmed animals that are mistreated, and then there's no profit, so the practice stops.

Then there's the folks that think that killing animals at all is wrong. That practice itself is kinda cruel, and causes unnecessary suffering. So to them, the goal is to raise awareness and stop that practice.

The point is, from a moral position, the two camps are not on equal footing. It is fine for you to say you don't think it is wrong, so you don't care what they eat and they should do the same. But the problem is they do think it is wrong, so letting you eat what you want is not harmless, it is just as wrong as letting you kill your neighbor because, hey, I'm not killing my neighbor, so what do I care what you do?

It's not a question of tastes, it's a question of harm and of right and wrong.

Originally Posted by JoelUpchurch

It seems to me to that the solution to your quandary would be to just breed a dumber chicken. How much brain does it actually take to eat and poop?

Not much, considering the tale of the headless chicken. A guy was going to kill his chicken for dinner, but when he went to cut the head off, he wanted to preserve as much neck as possible. So he chopped pretty close and actually chopped right about the mouth level. The chicken got up and continued to live. They fed it by pouring stuff down the throat, and it lived for some time.

http://www.miketheheadlesschicken.org/story.php

[BallinP0ck3t]

Originally Posted by Fear Itself

Yet you don't mind eating the poor living plants. Once you start excluding food sources on the basis of being alive, it sounds pretty silly to say you will kill and eat living plants, but not living animals.

No, that was not the whole of my basis and you have twisted what i was saying. Nor do i find it silly to eat Fruit and not animals. Fruit is given by the tree freely. To eat Animals is so rediculously different.. And if you choose to ignore that, thats also rediculous.

[Fear Itself]

Originally Posted by BallinP0ck3t

Fruit is given by the tree freely. To eat Animals is so rediculously different..

Yes, to eat anumals is logically the same as eating the leaves, stems or roots of plants, which you have to kill for.

[JoelUpchurch]

Originally Posted by Irishman

Not much, considering the tale of the headless chicken. A guy was going to kill his chicken for dinner, but when he went to cut the head off, he wanted to preserve as much neck as possible. So he chopped pretty close and actually chopped right about the mouth level. The chicken got up and continued to live. They fed it by pouring stuff down the throat, and it lived for some time.

http://www.miketheheadlesschicken.org/story.php

This is an interesting story, but to meet the requirements, we need to come up with a chicken that is born without a head. It might be a interesting question if vegetarians would be willing to eat headless chicken meat.

BTW, here is the wikipedia article on In vitro meat.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_vitro_meat

[BallinP0ck3t]

There is no necessity to eat animals. Yes it can be made to taste delicious. It may have had its place at one point, but that doesnt justify its continuence. It may not be so much of a right and wrong issue as much as it is a matter of grade and evolution. As we become more spiritually connected and pure, we need less of the grosser, heavier consumables to keep us going.
And yes we as a whole were not happy for so long.. True happiness is more than 'shits and giggles'. I am not attacking the meat eater, i am defending from all the bashings that vegetarians consistently are put through. It would seem that many meat eaters are in denial and are possibly jealous or something. We are not superior, but our vegetarian diet is.

[Fear Itself]

Originally Posted by BallinP0ck3t

There is no necessity to eat animals. Yes it can be made to taste delicious. It may have had its place at one point, but that doesnt justify its continuence. It may not be so much of a right and wrong issue as much as it is a matter of grade and evolution. As we become more spiritually connected and pure, we need less of the grosser, heavier consumables to keep us going.

I do not subscribe the notion that we eat solely to 'keep us going'. Gustation is as much a part of the pursuit of happiness as sex or the appreciation of music and art. My life is diminished by limiting my diet to only that which I need to survive.

We are not superior, but our vegetarian diet is.

You are entitled to your opinion, but just don't try to support it with any empirical science.

[BallinP0ck3t]

So are others' lives diminished by our arts and fancies. I entertain both thoughts, i in a big way hope that eating meat is not as horrifying as i currently view it. But i do currently view it this way. I hope this cause yes, if i were to eat meat, cooked and seasoned right now i would no doubt enjoy the sense pleasure of it.. And be thankful. But i do believe in ideals. There is no oyher way to get out of a pit unless you climb out of it. Just cause the surface is pretty or yummy or whatever doesnt mean it is wholesome.

[Fenris]

Originally Posted by Irishman

The point is, from a moral position, the two camps are not on equal footing. It is fine for you to say you don't think it is wrong, so you don't care what they eat and they should do the same. But the problem is they do think it is wrong, so letting you eat what you want is not harmless, it is just as wrong as letting you kill your neighbor because, hey, I'm not killing my neighbor, so what do I care what you do?

It's not a question of tastes, it's a question of harm and of right and wrong.

Congrats. You've just justified abortion clinic bombings.

[postpic200]

Originally Posted by BallinP0ck3t

There is no necessity to eat animals. Yes it can be made to taste delicious. It may have had its place at one point, but that doesnt justify its continuence. It may not be so much of a right and wrong issue as much as it is a matter of grade and evolution. As we become more spiritually connected and pure, we need less of the grosser, heavier consumables to keep us going.
And yes we as a whole were not happy for so long.. True happiness is more than 'shits and giggles'. I am not attacking the meat eater, i am defending from all the bashings that vegetarians consistently are put through. It would seem that many meat eaters are in denial and are possibly jealous or something. We are not superior, but our vegetarian diet is.

Nobody is forcing you to eat meat. And just so you know I do hunt, and fish, I have raised animals for food. As a vegetarian you have to plan you diet very carefully in order to get the right amount of b12 in your diet, as a omnivore I don't have that problem, so to say a vegetarian diet is superior isn't quite truthful. As far as happy, I am very happy, and will be until I die. Unlike many other people in the world I don't fear death, so I will do things that I enjoy and will make me happy. If not eating meat makes you happy then don't eat it. Simple.


And in response to the earlier video.

Don't click if you have not since of humor Carrot Juice is Murder

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmK0bZl4ILM

[gamerunknown]

Originally Posted by Fear Itself

My life is diminished by limiting my diet to only that which I need to survive.

There's a Utilitarian argument for marginally increasing the amount of suffering you have to endure in order to prevent suffering for other entities capable of suffering. There is no evidence to support the fact that plants are capable of suffering, while there is such evidence for fish (for instance). We follow such practices daily when we decide not to eat everything we see in order to limit our own future suffering.

The argument about "the average vegetarian diet" and the "average omnivorous diet" tends to follow a trail of red herrings and shifting goalposts. I've never seen an analogue presented where the difficulty of monitoring an average vegetarian diet and the difficulty of monitoring the average omnivorous diet are compared. I have seen data suggesting the average vegetarian is healthier than the average omnivore, but people then shift the goalposts and attribute their health to greater scrutiny, as if the average vegetarian would drop dead if they didn't spend three hours each day vacillating over the ingredients for and preparing meals, while the average meat eater can consume with reckless abandon as long as there's a steak or burger in their diet at some point.

[aruvqan]

Originally Posted by gamerunknown

There's a Utilitarian argument for marginally increasing the amount of suffering you have to endure in order to prevent suffering for other entities capable of suffering. There is no evidence to support the fact that plants are capable of suffering, while there is such evidence for fish (for instance). We follow such practices daily when we decide not to eat everything we see in order to limit our own future suffering.

The argument about "the average vegetarian diet" and the "average omnivorous diet" tends to follow a trail of red herrings and shifting goalposts. I've never seen an analogue presented where the difficulty of monitoring an average vegetarian diet and the difficulty of monitoring the average omnivorous diet are compared. I have seen data suggesting the average vegetarian is healthier than the average omnivore, but people then shift the goalposts and attribute their health to greater scrutiny, as if the average vegetarian would drop dead if they didn't spend three hours each day vacillating over the ingredients for and preparing meals, while the average meat eater can consume with reckless abandon as long as there's a steak or burger in their diet at some point.

Hm, I wouldn't mind being reincarnated as one of my hens - all the feed and water they can manage, running around in the sun chasing bugs during the day. All I ask is that she lay her eggs where I can collect them. When she is too old for laying [and hens will stop laying when they get to their version of old age] then she gets killed and eaten. No clipped beak, not shoved into a tiny cage. No medicated feeds or random hormones [they only get vetted if they are ill] Back when we had sheep, they ran around in the pasture and were fed. Granted they had a shorter lifespan unless we wanted to keep them for wool production [we harvested sheep for the mutton at about 2 or so years old]

May I point out that if you eat locavore, you can find farmers that raise meat and eggs in a reasonably stress free environment, with no medicated feeds or growth hormones if you look. Meat does not always come from a commercial meat lot.

[Irishman]

Originally Posted by Fear Itself

Yes, to eat anumals is logically the same as eating the leaves, stems or roots of plants, which you have to kill for.

That's just bullshit. There's a quality of life difference between animals and plants, in the nature of sentience and awareness. Animals have a scale, from insects through fish up to higher apes. Where in that spectrum of sentience and awareness one draws a line is a lot harder than drawing the line below brains. Plants don't have brains.

Which is a lot different from saying that I am a vegetarian, but stupid arguments deserve a slapdown.

Originally Posted by Fenris

Congrats. You've just justified abortion clinic bombings.

Not at all. I certainly recognize the parallel with the abortion topic, and I could have pointed that out myself, but you take my argument and extend it mighty far to go from "abortion is murder"* all the way to "therefore killing abortion providers is justified".

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* I do not make this claim. It is merely the strongest position that can be advocated from the argument that I did make.

[John W. Kennedy]

Originally Posted by Irishman

That's just bullshit. There's a quality of life difference between animals and plants, in the nature of sentience and awareness.

Plenty of plants are demonstrably sentient.

[Fear Itself]

Originally Posted by Irishman

That's just bullshit. There's a quality of life difference between animals and plants, in the nature of sentience and awareness.

If that is the case, then vegetarians/vegans should drop the 'killing for food' objection, when really it all depends of the individual's opinion of sentience. I don't how anyone could argue that an oyster is more sentient or aware than a cabbage.

[snowthx]

Originally Posted by aruvqan

May I point out that if you eat locavore, you can find farmers that raise meat and eggs in a reasonably stress free environment, with no medicated feeds or growth hormones if you look. Meat does not always come from a commercial meat lot.

Thanks for pointing this out - there are some that feel they can effect a bigger change on the system by being a part of it, rather than removing themselves from the equation. If factory-farming of meat bothers you, then stop buying factory-farmed meat. It does not mean you need to become a vegetarian. The presence of factory farms in the world, for me, is not enough to remove meat from my diet altogether. I will just vote with my dollars.

I agree with the above posts suggesting that it is not accurate to conflate a healthy diet with the choice to be vegetarian based on moral grounds. They are two separate issues: You can have animal protien in your diet and still eat a wholesome diet. And, you can choose to eat meat, or not, based on moral grounds. Two separate questions. I have heard this a few times: " I am a vegetarian because I don't like knowing about the cruel conditions at the factory farms. Besides, being a vegetarian is healthier." Not always true.

My vote: Omnivore.

[mangeorge]

Originally Posted by Fear Itself

If that is the case, then vegetarians/vegans should drop the 'killing for food' objection, when really it all depends of the individual's opinion of sentience. I don't how anyone could argue that an oyster is more sentient or aware than a cabbage.

Please don't say that. I cringe a little when I swallow a living creature as it is. Actually, I chew those little yummies right up.
Oysters, not cabbages.

[Irishman]

Originally Posted by John W. Kennedy

Plenty of plants are demonstrably sentient.

There's a matter of degree difference involved. Like I said, where one draws the line is the issue.

[md2000]

I remember reading once that human preference for meat evolved something like this: the great apes would sneak down from the trees to find food on the plains. They found, like other scanvegers, that there was fat and protein to be had in the leftovers from the big hunters of the savannah.

Our original digestive system evolved to eat the meat that had been aging in the sun and therefore was easy to digest. Eventually, protohumans learned to used fire to achieve the same effect as sunshine and enzymes, and cooking partially break down flesh so it was easy to digest. From chasing other scavengers away we learned the skills and tools needed to create our own sources of meat... but we prefer due to this path of evolution to not eat fresh raw meat.

[John W. Kennedy]

The last I heard, all carnivores prefer cooked food. Man is just better prepared to have it all the time.