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  #251  
Old 05-01-2012, 05:20 PM
Qadgop the Mercotan Qadgop the Mercotan is online now
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Originally Posted by llcoolbj77 View Post
Is this "conversation" in the book or show? Can you tell me which book?
1st book, early on in the first 1/4 or so.
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  #252  
Old 05-01-2012, 05:54 PM
JSexton JSexton is offline
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I guess I will have to dig around a bit to flesh this theory out. Ironically, my work has blocked tons and tons of websites for security. They blocked Lexis, and I am a lawyer. But Straight Dope is a-ok, apparently.
If you think about it, the only person who says that Rhaegar abducted Lyanna and raped her is Robert himself. It never even crossed his mind that just maybe, Lyanna wasn't terribly interested in being married off to a cheating drunkard, and was enamored of Rhaegar, who by most non-Robert accounts was a good and noble person.
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  #253  
Old 05-01-2012, 06:10 PM
DigitalC DigitalC is offline
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And the only time Ned thinks about Rhaegar it was a positive thought.
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  #254  
Old 05-01-2012, 06:20 PM
Kobal2 Kobal2 is offline
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Originally Posted by llcoolbj77 View Post
Do people just think he can't be Ned Stark's son because Ned, simply, was too honorable to cheat? Surely he would have told Catelyn the truth to keep her from treating Jon like shit. In fact, I can't stand Catelyn... mostly because of how she treats Jon. But also because of her rash decision making, which seems to derive from an inflated sense of self/personal honor.
I personally think he can't be Ned Stark's son precisely because he won't tell Catelyn the truth about him. Had it simply been a case of "scullery maid, long military campaign, empty staircase. Things happened.", I don't believe he would have kept quiet about it - he clearly loved and respected Cat enough to be honest about that much.
But what he wouldn't have done is lie to her (or anyone, really).

Based on these considerations, I'm forced to conclude that telling the truth, whatever it may be, would have cause Problems, and more than simply weakened trust & resentment from infidelity (which was pretty much a done deal, in fact if anything keeping mum heightened those particular feelings). Possibly problems affecting more than just his couple/family/Jon's childhood. "He's really the legitimate heir to the throne" would be one such Problem - it's not something Cat could really have kept under her hat.
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  #255  
Old 05-01-2012, 06:57 PM
llcoolbj77 llcoolbj77 is offline
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Originally Posted by Qadgop the Mercotan View Post
1st book, early on in the first 1/4 or so.
I totally remember that now. Really must do a better re-read.
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  #256  
Old 05-01-2012, 07:37 PM
drastic_quench drastic_quench is offline
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Additionally, there's a complementary theory about the Knight of the Laughing Tree, the mystery knight from the Tourney at Harrenhal. If you recall, Rhaegar won and choose to make Lyanna Stark the tourney's Queen of Love and Beauty over his own wife. Now just prior to that, the mystery knight came into the tournament and kicked all kinds of ass, but disappeared before it was over. All we know is that the knight was small of stature, and beat some knights whose squires had taunted Howland Reed. This leaves the reader to assume that Reed was the mystery knight. It was likely Lyanna who Arya is said to resemble in disposition. At some point "off camera" Rhaegar discovers this, she stops dressing as the knight, and he awards her the Love and Beauty prize for reasons only he knows.

Then later they make a baby. Ned is sworn to keep a promise, which is likely 'never tell anyone but the child that I willingly went with Rhaegar and loved him, and we're this baby's parents.' I think Ned likely didn't tell Cat both because of his honor and he needed her to openly and convincingly treat Jon like a bastard to help support the lie. Otherwise, his best friend, King Robert would literally have the baby smashed to bits.
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  #257  
Old 05-01-2012, 08:13 PM
DigitalC DigitalC is offline
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At some point "off camera" Rhaegar discovers this, she stops dressing as the knight, and he awards her the Love and Beauty prize for reasons only he knows.
Rhaegar discovered it because in his paranoia the Mad King decided the Knight of the Laughing Tree was against him and sent Rhaegar to find him.
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  #258  
Old 05-01-2012, 08:28 PM
drastic_quench drastic_quench is offline
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Yeah, nice. Even better. Whatever turns out to be the actual book-printed truth will pale in comparison if it's not this.
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  #259  
Old 05-01-2012, 08:37 PM
Snarky_Kong Snarky_Kong is offline
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Yeah, nice. Even better. Whatever turns out to be the actual book-printed truth will pale in comparison if it's not this.
I'll be mad if George ever reveals it directly.
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  #260  
Old 05-01-2012, 08:43 PM
Snarky_Kong Snarky_Kong is offline
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Let's assume that this is not the topic that George asked D&D to see whether they were real fans. What would he ask them other than this?
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  #261  
Old 05-01-2012, 09:58 PM
Elendil's Heir Elendil's Heir is offline
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Originally Posted by Snarky_Kong View Post
Let's assume that this is not the topic that George asked D&D to see whether they were real fans. What would he ask them other than this?
"Do you just hate Joffrey, or do you loathe him?"
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  #262  
Old 05-02-2012, 08:55 AM
TruCelt TruCelt is offline
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Originally Posted by drastic_quench View Post
Additionally, there's a complementary theory about the Knight of the Laughing Tree, the mystery knight from the Tourney at Harrenhal. If you recall, Rhaegar won and choose to make Lyanna Stark the tourney's Queen of Love and Beauty over his own wife. Now just prior to that, the mystery knight came into the tournament and kicked all kinds of ass, but disappeared before it was over. All we know is that the knight was small of stature, and beat some knights whose squires had taunted Howland Reed. This leaves the reader to assume that Reed was the mystery knight. It was likely Lyanna who Arya is said to resemble in disposition. At some point "off camera" Rhaegar discovers this, she stops dressing as the knight, and he awards her the Love and Beauty prize for reasons only he knows.

Then later they make a baby. Ned is sworn to keep a promise, which is likely 'never tell anyone but the child that I willingly went with Rhaegar and loved him, and we're this baby's parents.' I think Ned likely didn't tell Cat both because of his honor and he needed her to openly and convincingly treat Jon like a bastard to help support the lie. Otherwise, his best friend, King Robert would literally have the baby smashed to bits.
Fascinating, I never thought of that. Jojen's surprise that Bran's father had never told him the story led me to believe that the mystery knight was Ned himself, who woudl have been fairly young at the time. But I like this theory much better!
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  #263  
Old 05-02-2012, 09:53 AM
DigitalC DigitalC is offline
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I think it is even mentioned at some point that Lyanna was the best rider of the Starks.
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  #264  
Old 05-03-2012, 09:03 AM
bouv bouv is offline
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Originally Posted by llcoolbj77 View Post
This scene struck me differently. It seems to me that the Dothraki-handmaiden is feeling a bit, "fish out of water," in Quarth. She is probably miffed that Hotchick-handmaiden is acting very "un-dothraki-ish" by cooing over the dress, and wanting to dress Dany up like a princess. I think she just wants Dany to act more like a Khaleesi and less like dragon Barbie.
It makes sense that Hotchick-Handmaiden (Doreah) is acting "un-Dotkraki" because she ISN'T Dothraki. She's a Lysine please slave given to Dany as a gift to teach her how to please Khal Drogo.

But you're right, though. Irri saw Dany transform from a timid little girl, to a Khaleesi and leader of a Dothraki tribe. Seeing Dany "ohh and ahh" over a frilly dress, and ditch her riding leathers is like a slap in the face to her and everything she helped Dany learn.

And now I wonder where the Hell Jhiqui ran off to...we haven't seen her at all this season, have we?
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  #265  
Old 05-03-2012, 09:11 AM
Hellestal Hellestal is online now
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Originally Posted by bouv View Post
It makes sense that Hotchick-Handmaiden (Doreah) is acting "un-Dotkraki" because she ISN'T Dothraki. She's a Lysine please slave given to Dany as a gift to teach her how to please Khal Drogo.

But you're right, though. Irri saw Dany transform from a timid little girl, to a Khaleesi and leader of a Dothraki tribe. Seeing Dany "ohh and ahh" over a frilly dress, and ditch her riding leathers is like a slap in the face to her and everything she helped Dany learn.

And now I wonder where the Hell Jhiqui ran off to...we haven't seen her at all this season, have we?
This all makes sense. I just don't know what the point is.

They have so little time to work with (which is amazing, considering they have ten episodes for one book), I don't know where they're going with it. I'm wondering whether Hotchick-Handmaiden is going to survive Qarth. Are they setting up a different way of killing her off? If so, how is that gonna happen? Will it be a handmaiden dispute? A fierce bout of Dothraki mudwrestling, to the death? I just can't see Doreah's bigger purpose in all this, especially considering her fate in the book.
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  #266  
Old 05-03-2012, 11:34 AM
SecretaryofEvil SecretaryofEvil is offline
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Originally Posted by llcoolbj77 View Post

In fact, I can't stand Catelyn... mostly because of how she treats Jon. But also because of her rash decision making, which seems to derive from an inflated sense of self/personal honor.
I liked Cat's chapters but Cat as a character annoyed the piss out of me. She's easily the cockiest character in the book. She always knows what the right thing to do is, despite the fact that she's usually wrong. She was wrong about grabbing Tyrion, and she was wrong about releasing Jaime.

I'll never forgive her for saying to Robb in Clash of Kings "Tell the truth, are you reluctant to free the Kingslayer because you fear meeting him on the battlefield?"

Cat knew that was wasn't true. Robb wouldn't release Jaime because he was without parallel the most valuable hostage one could possess in the 7 kingdoms. She called her own son a coward in order to manipulate him into making a bad decision. Then she got all butthurt that Robb didn't want her advice anymore.

On the other hand, she's a great example of how Martin is a master of POV. Cat thinks she knows everything, and that the choices she makes are obviously the right choice. The events of the series prove her quite wrong.
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  #267  
Old 05-03-2012, 11:46 AM
DigitalC DigitalC is offline
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I hated Cat because every bad decision she makes stems from the completely selfish "my children are more important than anything else, so fuck you" mentality. That would be a perfectly reasonable way to feel for a regular person, but for someone like her is simply abuse of power. Arresting Tyrion, freeing Jamie, hell even pushing Ned to become hand to Robert, and every other bad decision she made came from the "unreasonable mom doing what she thinks is best, but it's for the children so fuck you" mentality.
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  #268  
Old 05-03-2012, 11:47 AM
TruCelt TruCelt is offline
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Cat's dilemma is that she had Ned in her life for so long that she can no longer function outside the cotnext of a solidly honorable partner. I think she was right to nab Tyrion, or would have been if her sister wasn't batshit crazy.
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  #269  
Old 05-03-2012, 12:26 PM
TruCelt TruCelt is offline
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context.

bilge.
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  #270  
Old 05-03-2012, 05:52 PM
lisiate lisiate is offline
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I think Martin did an excellent job of characterisation with Catelyn. He's perfectly captured a certain "know-it-all mother type". She's a great example of the Dunning-Kruger effect.
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  #271  
Old 05-03-2012, 06:31 PM
SecretaryofEvil SecretaryofEvil is offline
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I think Martin did an excellent job of characterisation with Catelyn. He's perfectly captured a certain "know-it-all mother type". She's a great example of the Dunning-Kruger effect.
Agreed.
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  #272  
Old 05-03-2012, 09:13 PM
Lakai Lakai is offline
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I think Martin did an excellent job of characterisation with Catelyn. He's perfectly captured a certain "know-it-all mother type". She's a great example of the Dunning-Kruger effect.
What is she ignorant about? She does make her share of mistakes, but they don't seem to be worse than most characters in the book.
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  #273  
Old 05-03-2012, 10:24 PM
lisiate lisiate is offline
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She's ignorant about her own competence. Every one of the decisions she makes listed by Secretary of Evil above (persuading Eddard to become Hand, arresting Tyrion, goading Robb and then releasing Jaime) is based on her belief that she knows better than everyone else.

I'd also add her continual undermining of Robb's authority on the march south, her goading of the late Lord Frey at the Twins, and her attempt to conciliate Renly and Stannis to her list of failures.
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  #274  
Old 05-03-2012, 10:36 PM
Feyrat Feyrat is offline
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I'd say she suffers from GRRM disease - women can't be competent on their own, they're emotional wrecks and need a strong man to prop-up their decision making or they become increasingly confused (Dany,) shrewish (Cat,) or simply fucking insane (Lyssa, Cersei.)
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  #275  
Old 05-03-2012, 10:52 PM
Snarky_Kong Snarky_Kong is offline
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I'd say she suffers from GRRM disease - women can't be competent on their own, they're emotional wrecks and need a strong man to prop-up their decision making or they become increasingly confused (Dany,) shrewish (Cat,) or simply fucking insane (Lyssa, Cersei.)
Olenna Tyrell, Margarie Tyrell, Osha, Asha, the Mormont women, Brienne, Melisandre, Arya, etc...
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  #276  
Old 05-03-2012, 11:44 PM
DrDeth DrDeth is offline
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I'd say she suffers from GRRM disease - women can't be competent on their own, they're emotional wrecks and need a strong man to prop-up their decision making or they become increasingly confused (Dany,) shrewish (Cat,) or simply fucking insane (Lyssa, Cersei.)
Few males (if any) in the world have any brains or are sane or are just giant dickheads or all three. Tyrion is just about the smartest guy on two continents, yet he's a emotional wreck and not completely sane. It goes a lot to say he's the most sympathetic character in the series.
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  #277  
Old 05-04-2012, 07:21 AM
Snarky_Kong Snarky_Kong is offline
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Few males (if any) in the world have any brains or are sane or are just giant dickheads or all three. Tyrion is just about the smartest guy on two continents, yet he's a emotional wreck and not completely sane. It goes a lot to say he's the most sympathetic character in the series.
Oh, I wouldn't say he's the most sympathetic. I think that Ned, Brienne, and Jon Snow are all more sympathetic. None of them murdered a prostitute because she wasn't loyal (hah!). He was, through the first three books, the coolest though.
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  #278  
Old 05-04-2012, 07:51 AM
DrDeth DrDeth is offline
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Oh, I wouldn't say he's the most sympathetic. I think that Ned, Brienne, and Jon Snow are all more sympathetic. None of them murdered a prostitute because she wasn't loyal (hah!). He was, through the first three books, the coolest though.
But Ned's a honorable idiot, and so (to a lesser extent) is John.
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  #279  
Old 05-04-2012, 01:52 PM
SecretaryofEvil SecretaryofEvil is offline
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So I know it's super nerdy, but I love this montage of ASOIF illustrations

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27nd3...eature=related

Some of the drawings are just fantastic works of art in their own right, and it's neat to see visuals of stuff that hasn't been seen on the show yet, as well as to see different interpretations that are closer to the way the books described things.
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  #280  
Old 05-07-2012, 01:41 AM
SecretaryofEvil SecretaryofEvil is offline
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So new episode tonight. I loved the Hound's rescue scene, very badass. Also, naked Tonks! Yay!
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  #281  
Old 05-07-2012, 03:17 AM
drastic_quench drastic_quench is offline
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I would fall hard for Ygritte, I'll admit.

The riot at King's Landing needed 100 more extras, and I would have liked the royals to be on horseback and/or litters.
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  #282  
Old 05-07-2012, 06:34 AM
TruCelt TruCelt is offline
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Tonks! That's who that is. Thank you, it was driving me nuts.
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  #283  
Old 05-07-2012, 03:03 PM
gonzoron gonzoron is online now
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As I just posted in the no-spoiler thread, I loved the casting of Ygritte. She nailed the part, IMHO, but where was "you know nothing, Jon Snow?" I was waiting the whole episode for it. When did she first say it in the book, anyone remember? They better not cut it entirely.
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  #284  
Old 05-07-2012, 03:28 PM
MaxTheVool MaxTheVool is offline
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A bunch of changes from the book this episode.... the biggest being the dragon's being stolen and the Jon/Ygritte interaction (unless I'm forgetting something). But I'm trying to remember how the Arya stuff happened in the book. I don't remember the business with Amory Loach at all, but I might easily just be forgetting it... is that how it happened in the book? Certainly, it does a good job of addressing one of the more baffling questions, namely, how Arya, generally a sharp kid, failed to have Jaqem kill anyone actually relevant.

Overall, I'm absolutely loving this season.
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  #285  
Old 05-07-2012, 03:49 PM
Snarky_Kong Snarky_Kong is offline
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A bunch of changes from the book this episode.... the biggest being the dragon's being stolen and the Jon/Ygritte interaction (unless I'm forgetting something). But I'm trying to remember how the Arya stuff happened in the book. I don't remember the business with Amory Loach at all, but I might easily just be forgetting it... is that how it happened in the book? Certainly, it does a good job of addressing one of the more baffling questions, namely, how Arya, generally a sharp kid, failed to have Jaqem kill anyone actually relevant.

Overall, I'm absolutely loving this season.
Arya's first two kills are Weese and Chiswyk (I think...) not the Tickler and Amory Lorch. Lorch is kicked into the Bear pit when Roose Bolton takes Harrenhall.
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  #286  
Old 05-07-2012, 07:59 PM
Lakai Lakai is offline
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Rodrick dies instead of the stable guy. That means they're not going through the whole Reek-betrays-Theon storyline. I think Bolton's bastard will just take Winterfell, kill everyone, and capture Theon.
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  #287  
Old 05-07-2012, 09:07 PM
DigitalC DigitalC is offline
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Reek wasn't even cast for this season.
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  #288  
Old 05-07-2012, 09:59 PM
drastic_quench drastic_quench is offline
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Reek wasn't even cast for this season.
Woosh? It'd be the same actor.
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  #289  
Old 05-07-2012, 10:24 PM
AuntiePam AuntiePam is offline
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Woosh? It'd be the same actor.
Yeah, if Lakai is right about how they'll condense the story. But there was another Reek before Theon, a servant of Ramsay's.
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  #290  
Old 05-07-2012, 10:27 PM
drastic_quench drastic_quench is offline
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Ah, that's right. That must have been deleted in my latest mental defrag.
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  #291  
Old 05-08-2012, 09:23 AM
JSexton JSexton is offline
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Rodrick dies instead of the stable guy. That means they're not going through the whole Reek-betrays-Theon storyline. I think Bolton's bastard will just take Winterfell, kill everyone, and capture Theon.
Well, we need it to be a bit more complicated than that, right? I don't see how they can leave out the killing of the fake Bran and Rickon, and for it to really work, it has to be Theon's decision. I guess they can squeeze it in before Ramsay shows up?
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  #292  
Old 05-08-2012, 09:29 AM
TruCelt TruCelt is offline
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Well, we need it to be a bit more complicated than that, right? I don't see how they can leave out the killing of the fake Bran and Rickon, and for it to really work, it has to be Theon's decision. I guess they can squeeze it in before Ramsay shows up?
No, that was actually Ramsay, wasn't it?
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  #293  
Old 05-08-2012, 09:45 AM
Snarky_Kong Snarky_Kong is offline
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No, that was actually Ramsay, wasn't it?
Ramsay convinces Theon to kill the kids or let Ramsay do it. I don't think we're told who the actual murderer is. So it's originally Ramsay's idea, but Theon goes along with it.
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  #294  
Old 05-08-2012, 10:40 AM
HazelNutCoffee HazelNutCoffee is offline
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I am actually really enjoying the scenes with Tywin and Arya. It's such an unlikely interaction but all the scenes work very well. Tywin seems so much more human on TV.
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  #295  
Old 05-08-2012, 11:00 AM
TruCelt TruCelt is offline
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Yeah, Tywin is almost too well done. I'm starting to like him, and that's just wrong! LOL!
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  #296  
Old 05-08-2012, 11:41 AM
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Yeah, Tywin is almost too well done. I'm starting to like him, and that's just wrong! LOL!
Whenever you start to like him, just remember he ordered a dozen (or more?) of his men to rape poor Tysha...though that part of the story was cut out in the TV-verse, so maybe it never happened...
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  #297  
Old 05-08-2012, 11:57 AM
TruCelt TruCelt is offline
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Exactly. He's coming off as strong without the cruel.
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  #298  
Old 05-08-2012, 12:01 PM
Snarky_Kong Snarky_Kong is offline
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Whenever you start to like him, just remember he ordered a dozen (or more?) of his men to rape poor Tysha...though that part of the story was cut out in the TV-verse, so maybe it never happened...
Tyrion told the Tysha story last season.
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  #299  
Old 05-08-2012, 12:10 PM
bouv bouv is offline
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Tyrion told the Tysha story last season.
I thought they left the rape part of the story out? (though at the time it wasn't known to be rape, we (and Tyrion) were led to believe she really WAS a prostitute.)

Fake edit: Nope, it was in the story...however, the TV audience still just sees Tysha as a prostitute, so I can easily see how they would think,
"Man, Tywin ain't so bad...rough around the edges, but not cruel."
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  #300  
Old 05-08-2012, 12:10 PM
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Woosh? It'd be the same actor.
Reek/Ramsay was not cast for this season. Better? :P
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