I don't drink

[Anne Neville]

Originally Posted by pseudotriton ruber ruber

I'm not getting what's the matter with my ultimately deciding that people who think it's okay to split an unbalanced dinner bill equally are not people I enjoy spending time with.

OK, you don't want to spend time with these people. So don't.

They have a character flaw, I spotted it, I choose not to spend time with them, and if my GF asks, I'll tell her my reasons: "They don't seem sufficiently sensitive to other people." I'm obligated to lecture her (or them) about what I deem appropriate behavior? I think not. It's sufficent to me that I think what I think.

I wouldn't tell her this. She presumably likes these people, even if you don't. You don't have to spend time with them, but you don't need to bad-mouth them to her, either. That's likely to cause a fight. Just don't go out with them any more, and let it go at that.

[Dangerosa]

Originally Posted by pseudotriton ruber ruber

I'm not getting what's the matter with my ultimately deciding that people who think it's okay to split an unbalanced dinner bill equally are not people I enjoy spending time with. They have a character flaw, I spotted it, I choose not to spend time with them, and if my GF asks, I'll tell her my reasons: "They don't seem sufficiently sensitive to other people." I'm obligated to lecture her (or them) about what I deem appropriate behavior? I think not. It's sufficent to me that I think what I think.

I don't think anything is wrong with it. But because I've gotten burned a few times in the past, I go into all these situations and do an evaluation....would I pick up the entire check? Would I feel fine with even splits? And, do I want my own check (or one for my own subparty)? The answer changes depending on the circumstances, but I go into the situation and then try and configure it going in so the outcome is acceptable. This will not be the only party of inconsiderate boors you go out with in your life, even if you never see these particular boors again, particularly if you tend to go out with drinkers and not drink. Changing your own behavior might leave you a little less disappointed in humanity.

[Cat Whisperer]

Originally Posted by ladyfoxfyre

Just out of curiosity, what restaurant have you ever gone to that refused to split a check up? Because I have never, ever heard of any place that wouldn't do it. Or do you mean you didn't want to ask them to do it?

It's not totally unheard-of here, especially for large groups. Some restaurants just won't do it.

Originally Posted by pseudotriton ruber ruber

I'm not getting what's the matter with my ultimately deciding that people who think it's okay to split an unbalanced dinner bill equally are not people I enjoy spending time with. They have a character flaw, I spotted it, I choose not to spend time with them, and if my GF asks, I'll tell her my reasons: "They don't seem sufficiently sensitive to other people." I'm obligated to lecture her (or them) about what I deem appropriate behavior? I think not. It's sufficent to me that I think what I think.

The problem I'm having with your decision is that there is still (in my mind) reasonable doubt as to the motivation of the group of people to ignore the fact that you ordered a much less expensive meal than they did. If you had pointed it out to them and they still insisted you pay an equal share, then I'd agree with you - these people are social louts. At this point, I'd suggest you talk with your girlfriend and mention this incident in a non-confrontational way - "Hey, when we went out for dinner with your friends, no one seemed to notice that they had a lot of drinks and I had none. I don't really want to pay for their drinks - any suggestions for how we handle this in the future?"

[Alan Smithee]

Originally Posted by pseudotriton ruber ruber

I'm totally not getting where all this "irrational phobia" stuff comes from--adjust the numbers up and down, and I promise you you'll hit a number where you're exactly where I am.

No I wouldn't. There would be an amount that of money that wouldn't bother me and I wouldn't speak up about, and an amount that would bother me and that I would speak up about, but there would be no amount that would bother me but that I wouldn't feel comfortable speaking up about.

The amount at which I would feel comfortable speaking up about it, in fact, is LOWER than the amount at which it would bother me. (I probably wouldn't speak up if it wasn't enough to bother me, but if I was worried about the precedent or thought someone else was being cheated or had any other reason to mention it, I'd feel comfortable doing so.) The amount at which I would feel bothered enough to complain about it on a message board or consider not going to dinner with someone or think less of them even though I'd tacitly agreed would be considerably HIGHER than any of those points.

Actually, complaining on a message board or thinking less of them wouldn't happen at all unless I'd said something and been rebuffed. Wouldn't even occur to me.

[pseudotriton ruber ruber]

Originally Posted by Alan Smithee

there would be no amount that would bother me but that I wouldn't feel comfortable speaking up about.

OK, what's the magic number?

[Alan Smithee]

What magic number? The point at which it would go from not bothering me to bothering me? Hard to say, it would depend on my mood at the moment, how much I liked the people I was with, how recently I'd been paid, and a host of other things. Probably around ten or fifteen bucks.

ETA: The point at which I'd be ok with speaking up would also vary, but would probably be about four or five bucks.

[pseudotriton ruber ruber]

This "mood" shit is backing up my point, isn't it? If it changes from day to day, then there's a figure at which you'll need to compute if the current number is enough to make you feel like making an issue out of it or keeping to yourself. If you're overpaying by $4.50, then you need to figure if today is a four dollar day, and you keep still, or a five dollar day and you speak up.

[ladyfoxfyre]

Originally Posted by Cat Whisperer

It's not totally unheard-of here, especially for large groups. Some restaurants just won't do it.

I'll rephrase. Where in the US is a restaurant refusing to split a check?

[IvoryTowerDenizen]

I've been in a few places that say the won't split checks. Can't remember specific places off hand, though.

[Loach]

For me it would have to be $20. Probably more. That is for a one off event. If it was a regular thing I would rectify the problem at a lower level. I don't think it would ever bothe me that much.

[Alan Smithee]

Originally Posted by pseudotriton ruber ruber

This "mood" shit is backing up my point, isn't it? If it changes from day to day, then there's a figure at which you'll need to compute if the current number is enough to make you feel like making an issue out of it or keeping to yourself. If you're overpaying by $4.50, then you need to figure if today is a four dollar day, and you keep still, or a five dollar day and you speak up.

But what's your point? Firstly, I don't exactly "compute" anything, I just go with my gut and either speak up or don't. But if it bothers me even a little bit, then I speak up, because the threshold for being bothered will always be way above the threshold for being comfortable speaking up.

And either way, I don't worry about it afterwards and second-guess myself and think about whether I should avoid those people all together so I don't risk making the same mistake again. Lots of decisions (probably all) have borderline cases where it could go either way. This morning I had to decide if I should hit snooze again or get up. I didn't "calculate" exactly how sleepy I was on a ten point scale and compare it to a chart of how long I feel like spending brushing my teeth. And you know what, maybe I made the wrong decision, after all I was almost late for work. But I didn't feel compelled to post a thread about what a shitty alarm clock I have because of it.

[RTFirefly]

This probably isn't much help for the OP, but since others have mentioned how they handle it when a group of co-workers goes out to work, here's how we do it: one person puts the lunch check on their credit card and makes sure to get an itemized receipt.

If you're the one who paid, then back at the office, you open up Excel, enter in the items ordered and their menu prices, then apply the tax and tip to all items, and total up the rows to come up with a price for each item including tax and tip. Then you email the spreadsheet to everyone who was part of the lunch, and people identify what they had and pay you.

Doing the spreadsheet might take 15 minutes or so, but everybody knows exactly what they owe, and we've never had any arguments about it.

[zbuzz]

This thread reminds me that Homer Simpson was right- alcohol is the cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems.

[pseudotriton ruber ruber]

Originally Posted by Alan Smithee

But I didn't feel compelled to post a thread ...

Well, I guess that makes you a finer human being than I am. Congratulations.

[Alan Smithee]

Originally Posted by pseudotriton ruber ruber

Well, I guess that makes you a finer human being than I am. Congratulations.

Talk about damning with faint praise.

[twickster]

If y'all want to exchange insults, go do it in the Pit.

twickster, MPSIMS moderator

[pulykamell]

Originally Posted by IvoryTowerDenizen

I've been in a few places that say the won't split checks. Can't remember specific places off hand, though.

Yes. Totally not unusual, in my experience, although it seems Chicago restaurants have gotten a lot better about it in the last few years. New York, too, I remember being problematic at places for large parties to get seperate, itemized checks.

I remember being shocked when driving down to Memphis a couple years ago, and every restaurant there up front asked us if we wanted seperate checks. I've never experienced that around here.

[Loach]

I can see it being a problem with large parties. Not with four.

[Ravenman]

Originally Posted by pseudotriton ruber ruber

I'm not getting what's the matter with my ultimately deciding that people who think it's okay to split an unbalanced dinner bill equally are not people I enjoy spending time with. They have a character flaw, I spotted it, I choose not to spend time with them, and if my GF asks, I'll tell her my reasons: "They don't seem sufficiently sensitive to other people." I'm obligated to lecture her (or them) about what I deem appropriate behavior? I think not. It's sufficent to me that I think what I think.

Where I was going with the "irrational behavior" comment is really in reference to this line of thinking. You are holding something against these people because they have, in essence, failed to read your mind that splitting the check is a (legitimate) issue for you. Like you say, maybe they are people who don't mind paying an extra $20 on one dinner check because they might underpay on the next check, and they are assuming that you might have the same approach, because you aren't saying anything to the contrary.

The standard that your are holding them to is entirely reasonable... If you would verbally raise the issue of the fairness of the check. Not saying anything and being strongly annoyed that you are ripping them off sounds to me about as rational as my significant other waking up in the morning and being mad at me because of something "I" did in her dream. How am I responsible for someone else's dream? How is someone else acting poorly for not living up to an expectation that is never expressed?

[madmonk28]

Also, it is entirely likely that they didn't notice that you weren't drinking or that you had not ordered as much food as other people. You can't expect people to instantly recognize that you are being treated unfairly, it's nice when they do, but if they don't realize their mistake, you should give them a chance to do the right thing before you get offended.

[even sven]

The point of the part where it doesn't bother you is that is literally the point where it does not bother you. It literally does not bother me to overpay by two or three dollars. That has zero effect on my life. That's pocket change. If I won a two dollar lottery ticket, I probably wouldn't bother to collect it. Overpaying two dollars, even consistently, would just roll off my back. But overpaying $20 is bothering you. It's not below the line.

The hip thing to do these days is to grab a pen and write your last name on the back of the check along with the amount you plan to charge to your card (pre-tip, unless the others are paying cash or the tip is included. You can add your tip when you sign the card). Then you can say "Hey guys, I've got my card, so I put in $20 for my salad and water, and I'll handle my share of the tip. I'm not sure if you guys want to do the rest in cash or add your cards- it's all you." Chances are at that point they will split up the rest between the three of them, and everyone will be happy. Anyway, the "write down what to charge" method is a lot easier to manage than going through the drama of asking for separate checks after the fact. Or you can just say "I've got a fifty here. My share works out to around twenty bucks, so if I can get thirty back that'd be awesome."

If someone pre-empts you with a "let's share the bill", you can often use your method of payment as an excuse. if you are paying cash, say you have to put it on your card so you'll just charge your $20. If they are paying by card, bust out cash and say "Oh, I have just enough cash to cover my salad and water."

Another more subtle way to do things is that if the math works out, suggest that they cover the tip. If I'm eating dinner with someone and our dishes have a $5-$10 difference, this is often what I'll do. I'll say something like "So my hamburger comes in at bucks. I've got a sawbuck here, so if you can handle that tip I think it'll even out."

Anyway, I wouldn't get too worked up about it or consider calling off friendships for it. It seems like a social group where the norm is to get drinks and the norm is to split checks. As a non-drinker, you've thrown a wrench into the system. It's a pretty big part of a lot of social cultures to be generous with alcohol purchases, be it buying rounds, bringing more beer than you could possibly drink to a party, splitting bills, Unless you were sitting around saying "Hey, this is nice SODA. I'm enjoying my SODA which is not ALCOHOL" they may have noticed that you didn't order drinks but didn't fully process it. When it came to pay, they defaulted to the socially acceptable method that's worked for them previous. You being an outlier throws new variable into things, and the best thing you can do then is propose an alternative.

[Colibri]

Originally Posted by madmonk28

you should give them a chance to do the right thing before you get offended.

What fun would that be?

[pulykamell]

Originally Posted by Loach

I can see it being a problem with large parties. Not with four.

You (and I) might not, but not restaurants I've been to have. It's not unusual, in my experience, for a restaurant not to want to give four separate checks to a party of four. YMMV.

And, for an actual cite, look at the menu here. (I've never actually been to this place, just Googled some search terms.)

No separate checks. 18% gratuity added for parties of 6 or more.

(Emphasis mine.)

Not no separate checks for large parties. No separate checks, period.

Or here

No separate checks, please

This is very much dependent on where you live and your local dining culture. It's not unusual where I'm at to have restaurants refuse separate checks.

[Living Well Is Best Revenge]

I am really glad I have friends/family who don't quibble over $20.

[pseudotriton ruber ruber]

Originally Posted by madmonk28

Also, it is entirely likely that they didn't notice that you weren't drinking or that you had not ordered as much food as other people. You can't expect people to instantly recognize that you are being treated unfairly, it's nice when they do, but if they don't realize their mistake, you should give them a chance to do the right thing before you get offended.

"Insensitive to other people" covers that. If you're a party of four, and three of you are drinking like it's going out of style, and one of you is ordering tap water, sorry, it's on you to notice that his tab is half of yours.

[Jenaroph]

Originally Posted by Living Well Is Best Revenge

I am really glad I have friends/family who don't quibble over $20.

I'm really glad your friends and family are in a financial position where throwing in 20 bucks for somebody else's booze on a regular basis doesn't put a kink in their budget. I'm not saying that's true of the OP but for some people it is.

[WhyNot]

Originally Posted by pseudotriton ruber ruber

"Insensitive to other people" covers that. If you're a party of four, and three of you are drinking like it's going out of style, and one of you is ordering tap water, sorry, it's on you to notice that his tab is half of yours.

You expect the drunk people to be the sensitive and keenly aware people at the table?

[Living Well Is Best Revenge]

Originally Posted by Jenaroph

I'm really glad your friends and family are in a financial position where throwing in 20 bucks for somebody else's booze on a regular basis doesn't put a kink in their budget. I'm not saying that's true of the OP but for some people it is.

My point was that it evens out in the wash. Sometimes you spend a little more, sometimes a little less. If $20 makes or breaks you, maybe you shouldn't be going out in the first place.

[Lynn Bodoni]

Originally Posted by Living Well Is Best Revenge

My point was that it evens out in the wash. Sometimes you spend a little more, sometimes a little less. If $20 makes or breaks you, maybe you shouldn't be going out in the first place.

It doesn't even out in the wash, though, if one person CONSISTENTLY is ordering $20 less than the other people. If one person has an average tab of $15, and another person has an average tab of $50, every time they go out, then the second person is getting subsidized by the first person, if they alternate picking up the checks. And this is what is going to happen if one person doesn't drink alcohol, and the other person doesn't consider the meal complete without having three or four drinks every time.

Tell you what, let's go bookshopping together, and we'll put our purchases together and just split the tab. Thing is, you only want $15 of books, but I want $50 worth. Let's do this every week, and we ALWAYS both get about the same amount of books, that is, you get one hardback, whereas I get a hardback, a movie, and some magazines. Every time, I chirp up and say "Let's put it all on your card, and I'll give you $35 in cash, that's fair, right?" Hey, I'm paying MORE THAN HALF. Do you think that's fair, that I expect you to subsidize my habit?

If one person consistently orders more stuff, and more expensive stuff, but expects to split the bill evenly, then guess what? That can add up.

[pseudotriton ruber ruber]

Originally Posted by WhyNot

You expect the drunk people to be the sensitive and keenly aware people at the table?

I expect people not to use their drunkenness as an excuse to behave like assholes. If going out with you means I'll have to deal with shitty selfish behavior, I think I'd just rather pass on that opportunity, thanks very much for the invitation.

[Living Well Is Best Revenge]

Originally Posted by Lynn Bodoni

It doesn't even out in the wash, though, if one person CONSISTENTLY is ordering $20 less than the other people. If one person has an average tab of $15, and another person has an average tab of $50, every time they go out, then the second person is getting subsidized by the first person, if they alternate picking up the checks. And this is what is going to happen if one person doesn't drink alcohol, and the other person doesn't consider the meal complete without having three or four drinks every time.

Tell you what, let's go bookshopping together, and we'll put our purchases together and just split the tab. Thing is, you only want $15 of books, but I want $50 worth. Let's do this every week, and we ALWAYS both get about the same amount of books, that is, you get one hardback, whereas I get a hardback, a movie, and some magazines. Every time, I chirp up and say "Let's put it all on your card, and I'll give you $35 in cash, that's fair, right?" Hey, I'm paying MORE THAN HALF. Do you think that's fair, that I expect you to subsidize my habit?

If one person consistently orders more stuff, and more expensive stuff, but expects to split the bill evenly, then guess what? That can add up.

If it happens consistently, then speak up and ask for a separate check. I don't see the problem there. If it has happened once, suck it up and don't be a cheapskate. That's not going to impress a new girlfriend, especially when meeting her friends.

[pseudotriton ruber ruber]

And maybe I'm imposing my own standard of behavior on others, but I can't imagine ever ordering above 50% of the cost of anything and asking someone to split the bill evenly. If it's a petty difference, I'll be okay with their telling me, "Nah, that's ok," but I would always offer to pay more than half. "Hey--mine was more than yours, so how about I pay 12 bucks and you can give me 8?" , like that. It's not difficult.

[pseudotriton ruber ruber]

Originally Posted by Living Well Is Best Revenge

If it has happened once, suck it up and don't be a cheapskate.

This is EXACTLY, PRECISELY what I've done, and what I've gotten called all sorts of names of names for here: passive-aggressive, irrational phobi[c], etc. it happened once, I didn't let on that it bothered me, I posted about it here, I got shit from Dopers.

[glee]

Originally Posted by elbows

When the server is taking your order, politely, and discreetly, "May I have mine on a separate check please?"

Problem solved. If your friend's question why, make any excuse you like (debit card only, tracking my spending, need a receipt, my accountant...) or just smile and say, "Don't worry, it's all taken care of!" Done. No need to drop dining out with your friends, or changing girlfriend's!

+1

[Living Well Is Best Revenge]

Originally Posted by pseudotriton ruber ruber

This is EXACTLY, PRECISELY what I've done, and what I've gotten called all sorts of names of names for here: passive-aggressive, irrational phobi[c], etc. it happened once, I didn't let on that it bothered me, I posted about it here, I got shit from Dopers.

Ah ok, I missed that part. My apologies. If you are being taken advantage of regularly, then I am completely on your side. Why not ask for a separate check for you and your girlfriend at the start of the dinner?

[Doug K.]

Originally Posted by ladyfoxfyre

Just out of curiosity, what restaurant have you ever gone to that refused to split a check up? Because I have never, ever heard of any place that wouldn't do it. Or do you mean you didn't want to ask them to do it?

Originally Posted by Cat Whisperer

It's not totally unheard-of here, especially for large groups. Some restaurants just won't do it.

I remember years ago in a Miss Manners column someone asked correct way to respond to a restaurant refusing to give separate checks. She said the correct response was to crumple your napkin, place it on the table and leave without ordering. She ended her answer by saying something to the effect of you're not there for the restaurant's convenience, the restaurant is there for yours.

[Scumpup]

Those people victimized prr. They virtually gang raped him. Then the poor fellow comes here looking for comfort and assurance and what happens? You people berate and insult him. You might as well have called him "anal whore" or "butt slut." This place lacks compassion.

Don't listen to them, prr. You're the victim here. Your gf and her predatory friends will use you, abuse you, discard you like a used condom, and then laugh uproariously in later years when they revisit the places where you were their bitch. I've never experienced it, myself, but I can believe it must be horrible for you to be the ATM (in both senses) for that witch and her posse. I think you should start keeping a journal of every time you are wronged. Be detailed. Paste things like restaurant receipts in it. Reread your entries frequently. Keep it with you everywhere so you could even do stuff like describe the next time they make you squeal like a pig while it is happening.
Remember, per, I'm the only one in this thread who is really looking out for you.

[you with the face]

Unless you made a point of announcing that you'd only had salad and water, then they probably didn't know splitting would cause you to significantly overpay. I know that when I go out with a group, I rarely monitor what others are ordering. Especially if those other people are strangers, like you were essentially were to them. Did they know you only had salad and water?

Your GF, presumably, would be more likely to pay attention to such a detail, though. She also would have been a better position to advocate for you. So how did she handle this? Could she sense you were bothered?

[even sven]

prr, think about it this way.

These people have a system. The sustem has presumably been in place for some times, and has worked happily for the duration of their friendship. The system is functional, has internal logic, and like most systems probably serves a useful purpose, even if that purpose is not immediately apparent to outsiders. In the right circumstances, an even split is a great way to do things- it's fast, it keeps the flow of the evening going, if everyone agrees to it it reduces the chances of someone getting butthurt, and it encourages people to keep the drinks flowing as long as the conversation is lively.

You have come into this system with an unusual behavior (not drinking) that they system was not designed to handle. You have introduced an element of chaos, and that predictability threw off the balance.

Now this isn't your fault or a bad thing, but you can at the least make an effort to restore balance and refine the system so it works again- by, for example, proposing a new system (separate checks, splitting a single bill on different cards, etc.) This will probably have it's drawbacks for them- and not just monetarily. But I'm sure they'd see your logic.

I mean, it'd be different if they saw you were drinking water and decided, "Hey, this is our big chance to drink on someone else's dime!" But if it's what a group does customarily, typically your options are to go along or propose something mutually agreeable.

[RTFirefly]

Originally Posted by pseudotriton ruber ruber

it happened once, I didn't let on that it bothered me, I posted about it here, I got shit from Dopers.

Given that, on the basis of that once, you regard them as having a "character flaw" for failing to notice that you weren't drinking alcoholic beverages like they were, even though you'd done nothing to call it to their attention, what sort of reaction would you expect?

My stepmother is one of those people who notices what everybody's eating and drinking, so she can file it away and say to herself, "X is coming over, he doesn't eat seafood. And Y doesn't like asparagus," and plan the menu accordingly.

Just FYI, most people aren't like my stepmother.

[pseudotriton ruber ruber]

I stood out like a sore thumb. The waiter kept coming over to check if anyone needed a fresh drink? "Fresh drink? Drink? Can I refresh that? You still on water?" If they didn't notice that I was drinking water for a hour while they were getting new cocktails, again, this comes under "insensitive."

[Hbns]

"The other night we went out to dinner with our good bud and her new boyfriend. Right away we noticed he wasn't drinking, when he excused himself we discussed what we should do about the tab. After much discussion we concluded the sensitive thing to do would be to just ignore it. I mean how insensitive of us would it have been to point it out if this guy was a recovering alcoholic."

Originally Posted by pseudotriton ruber ruber

When I go out to dinner with people who do drink, it pisses me off that I always get stuck "splitting" the bill with people who drink A LOT.

Just keep sucking it up, paying, and keeping mum and you will never be wanting for dinner invitations my friend.

[PandaBear77]

Is the whole splitting the bill thing some kind of regional thing?

I grew up/still live in the south. I've *NEVER* done that when out to eat with friends and I can't imagine any situation in which it'd be necessary/preferable to do so.

[billfish678]

I also grew up in and live in the deep south. Straight out simple check splitting (take bill, divide by X people regardless of who got what) isnt something I've encountered on a regular basis. I wouldn't say its rare but IME its not the norm either.

I don't eat out often, but when I do we split the bill evenly. Stay taken advantaged of my friends...

[madmonk28]

It might be regional, it's pretty common in DC when you go out among friends. I'd say you're more likely to divide it based on what people ordered when you don't know the other diners well. There was a Friends episode on this exact issue, Phoebe, Joey, and Rachel all resented that the other three wanted to split the check. It was neatly resolved in 30 minutes, oddly enough.

[bengangmo]

Originally Posted by madmonk28

It might be regional, it's pretty common in DC when you go out among friends. I'd say you're more likely to divide it based on what people ordered when you don't know the other diners well. There was a Friends episode on this exact issue, Phoebe, Joey, and Rachel all resented that the other three wanted to split the check. It was neatly resolved in 30 minutes, oddly enough.

And in that episode it just hadn't occured to the others that there was a money issue at play.

I'd say that PRR is waaaay overplaying this and being all passive agressive about it...

FFS - "they should notice"? That sounds like a wife, not a group of friends..

[pseudotriton ruber ruber]

All good. The GF and I had a talk over the weekend, and passive-aggressive me waited for her to bring up the inequity of her drinking and me not-- we came to an understanding that works for both of us. Thanks for the support, folks.