Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread

[Stoid]

Originally Posted by JoelUpchurch

210 feet. Gilbreath said that fight happened 70 yards from Green's townhouse. They probably didn't measured it with a laser, but I doubt would it be more than 250 feet.

I'm talking from her back door. The front door would be further.

Like I said, take it up with google earth.

[Terr]

http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/29/us/sta...html?hpt=hp_c2

by the way, just for those who keep claiming that if the races were reversed, an immediate arrest would have been made - in one of those cases described (the drive-through shooting), the shooter is black, the dead man is white, and no arrest has been made.

[Hbns]

Originally Posted by Stoid

Especially considering that he describes his exact location to the dispatcher without any trouble at all.

That isn't so hard. I know that exactly 2 blocks up and 1 block over in my neighborhood there is a corner playground.

It is on the corner of 7th and ????

Hell if I know what that street name is after 8 years living here. Yet I can describe that exact location.

[Bricker]

Originally Posted by Stoid

Especially considering that he describes his exact location to the dispatcher without any trouble at all.

But not by referring to street names.

[JoelUpchurch]

Originally Posted by Stoid

Like I said, take it up with google earth.

Since you have the wrong location for the body and Green's townhome, it is hardly surprising that you have the wrong distance.

[DragonAsh]

Apologies if it's been covered already - I'm only part way through the 20-odd pages of this thread, but I'm wondering about the pictures reported to be of Zimmerman's head taken just 'minutes after the shooting' by a neighbor. So many things seem really weird.

Firstly, am I the only one bothered by the idea that a random neighbor, just minutes after a homicide, with police officers present, was allowed to wander the crime scene taking pictures and doing og knows what else?

And if police officers -weren't- on the scene...why is the neighbor taking pictures of GZ's head and not trying to see if the guy lying face down a few feet away is, you know, breathing or not?

Secondly, how in the hell does the neighbor even take that picture of Zimmerman's head from angle? Is the neighbor actually Manute Bol? Did he ask Zimmerman to kneel down? Odd that, suddenly finding himself in the middle of a gun shot homicide crime scene, the first thing he'd photograph is...the back of the potential suspect's head. Surely the lifeless body a few feet away was the most important feature of the entire area. And I can't believe this random neighbor would be standing there with a cell phone asking the suspect to kneel down to take some pictures...all with police officers there.

What was he taking pictures with? The reports I've seen say that the picture was taken with an iPhone 4S. My (admittedly not very scientific) experiment with my iPhone 4 outside in my yard last night suggested that taking a picture from slightly above my 2yr old son's head didn't highlight the grass below very well - but in the picture the grass seems pretty well exposed given that it was a dark and rainy night (with apologies to Snoopy). Make of that what you will.

Slightly more importantly - I don't see any sign of the black stripe across the back of GZ's jacket - the stripe is very visible in the video from the station 30 minutes or so after the shooting. Could just be the crop of the photograph, but just eyeballing it, it sure looks like the stripe should be at least partially visible.

[JoelUpchurch]

http://gzlegalcase.com/index.php/8-p...zimmerman-case

While the media and the public have an absolute right to know about this case, that right has to be balanced with the rights of these witnesses. They are doing their civic duty in testifying in this case. We doubt any of them enjoy the scrutiny they are under due to the coincidence of their involvement in such a high profile matter. We are delaying demanding the discovery until we can file motions to protect these witnesses. Once that is in place, discovery will flow to us, then the media and the public has access to it, under our rules.

Ms. Corey in not violating any rule or statute, as it is our decision, not hers, to wait until proper motions regarding the witnesses have been drafted and filed.

I suspect this means we aren't seeing any evidence until after another hearing. I still don't have a problem with redacting the names and addresses of the witnesses from the published statements.

[Stoid]

Originally Posted by DragonAsh

Apologies if it's been covered already - I'm only part way through the 20-odd pages of this thread, but I'm wondering about the pictures reported to be of Zimmerman's head taken just 'minutes after the shooting' by a neighbor. So many things seem really weird.

I feel you completely. That picture seems really off to me on about 9 levels. But I didn't even want to go there...

[you with the face]

Originally Posted by DragonAsh

Firstly, am I the only one bothered by the idea that a random neighbor, just minutes after a homicide, with police officers present, was allowed to wander the crime scene taking pictures and doing og knows what else?

That seems weird to me too. But given other signs of incompetence shown by the Sanford PD, I wouldn't put it pass them to not adequately secure the scene.

[PatriotX]

Originally Posted by Hbns

That isn't so hard. I know that exactly 2 blocks up and 1 block over in my neighborhood there is a corner playground.
It is on the corner of 7th and ????
Hell if I know what that street name is after 8 years living here. Yet I can describe that exact location.

Where Z is said to have walked is the same street as the one on which he lives.
There's not an intersection at that location, hence no street sign.
Further, that street is not the street where Z's truck was parked in that diagram.

The story we're getting is coming across as,
"Z walked from the street where his truck was to a different street--his own street--to find a street sign [where there was not a intersection], so that he could tell the PD information about how to meet Z at his truck which was parked somewhere else."

As the above makes no sense to me, I look forward to a more complete accounting of Z's version of events.

I am curious about the encounter between Z and M which involves Z still being in his vehicle and rolling the window up. Is that actually in Z's account? Or merely in the version of one of his proxies?

[PatriotX]

Originally Posted by DragonAsh

Firstly, am I the only one bothered by the idea that a random neighbor, just minutes after a homicide, with police officers present, was allowed to wander the crime scene taking pictures and doing og knows what else?

Is there something in the photo that let's us know that it was taken inside the crime scene and not somewhere outside of the area which was secured (according to the Police report)?
If not, then perhaps we should start by refuting the idea that it was shot outside the crime scene before we assume that is was inside the crime scene. imho

Originally Posted by DragonAsh

And if police officers -weren't- on the scene...why is the neighbor taking pictures of GZ's head and not trying to see if the guy lying face down a few feet away is, you know, breathing or not?

Afaik, we don't have access to all of what was on the photographer's phone. So, it's possible that there're more things on that phone which we do not know about. As such I can't rule out that the photographer did take pictures of things which you find more suitable subjects.

Originally Posted by DragonAsh

Secondly, how in the hell does the neighbor even take that picture of Zimmerman's head from angle? Is the neighbor actually Manute Bol? Did he ask Zimmerman to kneel down?

I am just guessing here, but I think it's possible that the photographer lifted his camera above Z's head and pointed it at Z's head from there.

Originally Posted by DragonAsh

Odd that, suddenly finding himself in the middle of a gun shot homicide crime scene, the first thing he'd photograph is...the back of the potential suspect's head.

Do we know that was the first thing which the photographer photographed?

Originally Posted by DragonAsh

Surely the lifeless body a few feet away was the most important feature of the entire area.

Just because we haven't seen those photos, doesn't mean that they don't exist.

Originally Posted by DragonAsh

And I can't believe this random neighbor would be standing there with a cell phone asking the suspect to kneel down to take some pictures...all with police officers there.

I am not inclined to believe it either. That's why I have my theory about the photographer using his hand or hands to lift the camera above Z's head.

Originally Posted by DragonAsh

What was he taking pictures with? The reports I've seen say that the picture was taken with an iPhone 4S. My (admittedly not very scientific) experiment with my iPhone 4 outside in my yard last night suggested that taking a picture from slightly above my 2yr old son's head didn't highlight the grass below very well - but in the picture the grass seems pretty well exposed given that it was a dark and rainy night (with apologies to Snoopy). Make of that what you will.

Perhaps the lighting in your backyard was not identical to the lighting created by the flash lights, headlights, and porch lights which were on that evening in the physical position Z was in.

[ralph124c]

Does anybody know if Alan Dershowitz intends to join the defense?
This trial could get very interesting.

[you with the face]

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nati...icle-1.1069862

Worries over the safety of witnesses could delay the trial against Trayvon Martin’s killer.

George Zimmerman’s attorney, Mark O'Mara, said on his website Sunday he'll delay asking prosecutors for evidence in the case until a judge rules to protect the witnesses.

I get the sense from this that the prosecutor has witnesses that we haven't heard from to date. Could be that these witnesses saw the altercation and reported things that substantially contradict Zimmerman's story. If so, I'm looking forward to learning about what they saw. I hope they saw enough of the conflict to be of real use.

Isn't it weird for the defense to be expressing worry over the safety of the prosecution's witnesses? Who exactly would these witnesses be in danger from, other than overzealous Zimmerman's supporters who might become very unhappy with the things they have to say?

Given this, unless someone presents a compelling reason why this inference is improper, I take this move by O'Mara as an implicit admission that these witnesses aren't going to be reporting trifle little inconsequential nothings. Because trivialities don't incite lip service about witness protections.

[Terr]

Originally Posted by you with the face

Isn't it weird for the defense to be expressing worry over the safety of the prosecution's witnesses?

Where did it say that the defense was worried about the safety of prosecution's witnesses?

[Steophan]

Originally Posted by you with the face

Isn't it weird for the defense to be expressing worry over the safety of the prosecution's witnesses? Who exactly would these witnesses be in danger from, other than overzealous Zimmerman's supporters who might become very unhappy with the things they have to say?
.

I'd say it's an ethical obligation for them to be concerned about their safety. It's also possible that Zimmerman's team may have heard from people who would be inclined to harm any prosecution witnesses, and as such to be in a better position to judge what danger there is. I very much doubt that Zimmerman's lawyers would want to see any witness intimidation, even in the unlikely event their client did.

[Steophan]

Originally Posted by Terr

Where did it say that the defense was worried about the safety of prosecution's witnesses?

In the statement where they've agreed to the prosecution delaying the release of their evidence due to concerns over witness safety.

[Terr]

Originally Posted by Steophan

In the statement where they've agreed to the prosecution delaying the release of their evidence due to concerns over witness safety.

Prosecution's evidence includes witnesses that are favorable to defense,

[Poochey]

Originally Posted by Steophan

If he certainly said "coon", there may be grounds for claiming hate. As it's only audible on an edited tape, and even then not directed at anybody, I'm dubious.

Also, he had reasonable grounds for suspecting Martin.

Zimmerman is part black, on his Peruvian mother's side.

[Bricker]

Ok, quiz time. Who knows what it means for the prosecution to turn over Brady material?

[Fear Itself]

Originally Posted by Poochey

Zimmerman is part black, on his Peruvian mother's side.

Assuming that is true, what should we conclude?

[Poochey]

Originally Posted by DragonAsh

Apologies if it's been covered already - I'm only part way through the 20-odd pages of this thread, but I'm wondering about the pictures reported to be of Zimmerman's head taken just 'minutes after the shooting' by a neighbor. So many things seem really weird.

Firstly, am I the only one bothered by the idea that a random neighbor, just minutes after a homicide, with police officers present, was allowed to wander the crime scene taking pictures and doing og knows what else?

And if police officers -weren't- on the scene...why is the neighbor taking pictures of GZ's head and not trying to see if the guy lying face down a few feet away is, you know, breathing or not?

Secondly, how in the hell does the neighbor even take that picture of Zimmerman's head from angle? Is the neighbor actually Manute Bol? Did he ask Zimmerman to kneel down? Odd that, suddenly finding himself in the middle of a gun shot homicide crime scene, the first thing he'd photograph is...the back of the potential suspect's head. Surely the lifeless body a few feet away was the most important feature of the entire area. And I can't believe this random neighbor would be standing there with a cell phone asking the suspect to kneel down to take some pictures...all with police officers there.

What was he taking pictures with? The reports I've seen say that the picture was taken with an iPhone 4S. My (admittedly not very scientific) experiment with my iPhone 4 outside in my yard last night suggested that taking a picture from slightly above my 2yr old son's head didn't highlight the grass below very well - but in the picture the grass seems pretty well exposed given that it was a dark and rainy night (with apologies to Snoopy). Make of that what you will.

Slightly more importantly - I don't see any sign of the black stripe across the back of GZ's jacket - the stripe is very visible in the video from the station 30 minutes or so after the shooting. Could just be the crop of the photograph, but just eyeballing it, it sure looks like the stripe should be at least partially visible.

The photographer may have taken other pictures. It should be apparent to everyone by now that Zimmerman is short, or everyone else in the pictures seen with him are unusually tall.

[you with the face]

Originally Posted by Bricker

Ok, quiz time. Who knows what it means for the prosecution to turn over Brady material?

I just googled it. Means the state has to share evidence thats in favor of the defendant, as well as against. Which shouldn't be shocking to anyone.

I go back to the O'Mara's delay request. Since we know there have been witnesses associated with this case from day 1, why isn't it until now that there is this scramble to get witness protections in place? The release of names shouldn't have been a surprise to anyone; so one would think that these safety issues would have been anticipated and addressed a long time ago. Not on the same day everyone was expecting the evidence to go public.

How typical is this, is what I'm wondering? It seems like a stall tactic and nothing more to me.

[Bricker]

Originally Posted by you with the face

I just googled it. Means the state has to share evidence thats in favor of the defendant, as well as against. Which shouldn't be shocking to anyone.

Right you are. Specifically in this case, it means that the state's evidence turned over in discovery may include, "We interviewed Abe Simpson of 154 Twin Trees, and he reported seeing Martin holding a mace in one hand and a chainsaw in the other as he approached Zimmerman."

You get the idea.

I mention this because there seemed to be confusion above about why the prosecution's evidence would expose witnesses to danger. The witnesses in the discovery material may be defense witnesses with testimony favorable to the accused.

I go back to the O'Mara's delay request. Since we know there have been witnesses associated with this case from day 1, why isn't it until now that there is this scramble to get witness protections in place? The release of names shouldn't have been a surprise to anyone; so one would think that these safety issues would have been anticipated and addressed a long time ago. Not on the same day everyone was expecting the evidence to go public.

How typical is this, is what I'm wondering? It seems like a stall tactic and nothing more to me.

The only thing I can think of is that O'Mara was apprised today that the discovery material included information that might cause members of the public to express their displeasure at the witness' information.

[newme]

Originally Posted by PatriotX

I am curious about the encounter between Z and M which involves Z still being in his vehicle and rolling the window up. Is that actually in Z's account? Or merely in the version of one of his proxies?

This is what Tacy Martin says that Detective Serino says that Zimmerman said.

http://www.tumblr.com/tagged/tracy-martin

Sanford police have stopped talking to reporters about the case, and Serino has never spoken publicly about his role in it, but here is how Martin recalls what Serino said: “He told me Zimmerman’s story was that Zimmerman was of course following him and that Trayvon approached his vehicle, walked up to the car and asked Zimmerman, ‘Why are your following me?’ Zimmerman then rolls his car windows down, tells Trayvon ‘I’m not following you.’ He rolls his car windows up.

So what we have is hearsay two layers deep. We know Trayvon got a good look at Zimmerman while Zimmerman was in his truck talking on the phone with police (Zimmerman: "Now he's just staring at me."). We also have Dede's story that Trayvon said, "Why are you following me?" just before the fight. Perhaps Tracy Martin is getting these mixed up. We won't know until we see Zimmerman's actual account.

[JoelUpchurch]

O'Mara talks some more about the discovery evidence.

http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/ent...precedent.html

[Boyo Jim]

Originally Posted by JoelUpchurch

O'Mara talks some more about the discovery evidence.

http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/ent...precedent.html

Usually when I hear stories about keeping court information secret, it's one side that wants to and the other doesn't. One or the other always seems to want the case tried in the news. So I wonder if how unusual a situation this is that both parties want to keep the court documents sealed. That means both side may have to work together cooperatively to fend off some attack by media lawyers.

[Poochey]

Originally Posted by Fear Itself

Assuming that is true, what should we conclude?

Perhaps it's less likely Zimmerman would use that racial slur. Likely irrelevant anyway, since the State claimed he said punks.

[Larry Mudd]

Originally Posted by Poochey

Perhaps it's less likely Zimmerman would use that racial slur. Likely irrelevant anyway, since the State claimed he said punks.

I don't think he did use that slur, and I will be gobsmacked if the prosecution makes any effort at all to colour Zimmerman as a bigot, but an afro-peruvian great-grandfather doesn't really figure for much, as far as that is concerned.

Hell, I know a guy with who is by all appearances 100% ethnically Chinese (by way of Singapore, though raised here in Vancouver) who regularly causes all sorts of cognitive dissonance with the blistering racist language he uses during his semiannual road-rage incidents: "You goddamn chink! How much did you pay for your driver's license?!" Target of abuse: Passengers:

We would live in a Golden Utopia if a little bit of mixed ancestry made people less likely to be racist jerks, at all, at all.

[Larry Mudd]

Judge orders partial disclosure of state's evidence.

...the file could include information like the probable cause affidavit and investigative reports.

However, the names and addresses of all of the state's witnesses won’t be released because Lester has ordered that to be taken out.

[Poochey]

http://www.wftv.com/videos/news/call...-police/vGbfd/

[JoelUpchurch]

The Unsealing order has appeared in the online page on Zimmerman's case. Also the motion for a gag order for O'Mara.

http://www.flcourts18.org/presspublic.html

I wonder if the evidence will appeal here also?

[Larry Mudd]

Speaking to how well having remote afro-peruvian roots could rule out bigotry against blacks, an embarrassing abandoned myspace page of Zimmerman's has some racist comments about Mexicans:

Workin 96 hours to get a decent pay check, gettin knifes pulled on you by every mexican you run into!

He also alludes to unspecified friends in Virginia who did some time and showed him the courtesy of not implicating him in some unspecified crime:

They do a year and dont ever open thier mouth to get my ass pinched.

The good news is, he captioned a photo (of him & friends of various complexions) with a Martin Luther King references. The bad news is it was "Free at last! Free at last!" celebrating his felony charges being reduced to a misdemeanor. The really bad news* is that in commenting on this outcome he made some disparaging remarks against the ex-girlfriend and quipped "Stay tuned for the A.T.F. charges......"

*Not for the current case, mind, but just for public perception.

[Poochey]

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/thir...tape-surfaces/

[Blank Slate]

Originally Posted by Poochey

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/thir...tape-surfaces/

And?

[JoelUpchurch]

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/...ice-department

I think Bricker and Stoid need to add this info to their thread

[Fear Itself]

Originally Posted by JoelUpchurch

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/...ice-department

One of those inconsistencies: Zimmerman told police Trayvon had his hand over Zimmerman's mouth during their fight on the night he shot Trayvon.

The Sentinel's source confirmed that Zimmerman's statements include that allegation. But authorities do not believe that happened, the source told the Sentinel, because on one 911 call, someone can be heard screaming for help. If it were Zimmerman, as he claims, his cries were not muffled, the source said.

Isn't that called impeaching the witness's testimony?

[enomaj]

It's not illegal to circle someone's car.

[Larry Mudd]

Originally Posted by Fear Itself

Isn't that called impeaching the witness's testimony?

I think that's technically a "prior inconsistent statement" - at least if I was awake during the important bits of Law & Order. One way that you can impeach the witness, though.

The obvious answer would be "He had his hand over my mouth part of the time," or some such. Certainly there isn't continuous screaming on the recording. (Though there is really nothing that sounds like someone being stifled at all.)

[Fear Itself]

Originally Posted by Larry Mudd

The obvious answer would be "He had his hand over my mouth part of the time," or some such. Certainly there isn't continuous screaming on the recording. (Though there is really nothing that sounds like someone being stifled at all.)

Zimmerman's father said he was being smothered, and could not breathe, presumably supporting the claim for fear of death or great bodily harm. We will have to wait to see if his statements to the police include that claim.

[PatriotX]

Originally Posted by Fear Itself

Zimmerman's father said he was being smothered, and could not breathe, presumably supporting the claim for fear of death or great bodily harm. We will have to wait to see if his statements to the police include that claim.

iirc, this came out in the bond hearing

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And isn't it true that a lot of statements that he made do not make sense in terms of the injuries that he described. Did he not describe to the police that Mr. Martin had him on the ground and kept bashing his head on the concrete over and over and just physically beating him with his hands?

GILBREATH: He has said that, yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And isn't it true that there is evidence that indicates that's not true?

GILBREATH: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did he also not state that at some point, he the defendant -- did he not state or claim that the victim in this case, Mr. Martin, put both hands one over his mouth and one over his nose so that he couldn't breathe?

GILBREATH: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And all of sudden that's when he was able to get free and grab the gun. Or I'm sorry, Martin was grabbing for the gun, did he not claim that too at some point. climb that?

GILBREATH: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But -- and I'm going to get into every little contradiction but wouldn't you agree that a lot of his statements can be contradicted by the evidence either witnesses or just based on what he says himself?

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIP...20/cnr.02.html

[Poochey]

Originally Posted by enomaj

It's not illegal to circle someone's car.

I know there's a large community watch sign near the entrance, stating all suspicious persons will be reported or questioned, but does anyone know if Zimmerman had a community watch leader decal on his SUV.

[Blank Slate]

Originally Posted by Poochey

I know there's a large community watch sign near the entrance, stating all suspicious persons will be reported or questioned, but does anyone know if Zimmerman had a community watch leader decal on his SUV.

I highly doubt it. If he did, it's unlikely any of this would have happened.

[JoelUpchurch]

Originally Posted by Blank Slate

I highly doubt it. If he did, it's unlikely any of this would have happened.

At night? How is Martin supposed to read a bumper sticker? I doubt he could even read the license plate if the bulb was out.

[Blank Slate]

Originally Posted by JoelUpchurch

At night? How is Martin supposed to read a bumper sticker? I doubt he could even read the license plate if the bulb was out.

Really? Is the community rural? No streetlights or house lights? None of the ambient light you usually find in a small city?
I find that hard to believe, even irresponsible considering the local crime problem.

[JoelUpchurch]

Originally Posted by Blank Slate

Really? Is the community rural? No streetlights or house lights? None of the ambient light you usually find in a small city?
I find that hard to believe, even irresponsible considering the local crime problem.

You don't understand. This is a private community with private lightning. The lights are more decorative than useful. You can see one in this picture.
http://nationalpostnews.files.wordpr...1144.jpg?w=620

I'm not sure if this would useful unless Zimmerman's bumper was directly under one of these lights. Dont forget that the back area had no lighting at all except porch lights.

If they had a logo on the side of the SUV, that might be different.

[Blank Slate]

It was light enough for Zimmerman to describe Martins clothes, estimate (correctly) his age and to observe details such as where his hands were and the button on his shirt.

Anyway, why would he have a decal or bumpersticker if the watch wasn't part of an organization?

[Larry Mudd]

Given his general hesitation to pronounce his address to police dispatchers on the off-chance he might be overheard by people some distance away, I would be very surprised if he was in a hurry to put a Vandalize Me Neighbourhood Watch decal on his vehicle.

[Poochey]

http://theconservativetreehouse.file...von-martin.jpg

[Larry Mudd]

Originally Posted by Poochey

http://theconservativetreehouse.file...von-martin.jpg

Care to summarize that link, or do you have some sort of pay-per-click arrangement with The Conservative Treehouse?

[Poochey]

Originally Posted by Larry Mudd

Care to summarize that link, or do you have some sort of pay-per-click arrangement with The Conservative Treehouse?

His email is TheLastRefuge@Reagan.com He apparently noticed some serious problems with the Martin attorney Crumb's claims regarding the person allegedly on the other end of the call that night (if there was one). If this person is accurate, the defense attorney would likely have also noticed any problems. If the cellphone records have been around quite a while, and the times are Pacific time, has the State Prosecutor even checked the cellphone records?