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  #1  
Old 05-06-2012, 09:20 AM
GermanicPride GermanicPride is offline
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Are Austrians still considered to be Germans?

Austria was the core of the Kingdom of Germany and part of the Holy Roman Empire of the German nation, most of the King of Germans were Austrians, until this was dissolved in 1806 and then the after the Congress of Vienna the German Confederation was created which then seen Pan-Germanism start to arise and the Austrians were having a German dualism against the Prussians who wanted to unify Germany without Austria.

After the Revolution of 1848 in the German states the Austrians were defeated in the Austro-Prussian war of 1866 which consequently excluded the Austrians and Austria from Germany - but if Austria had beat the Prussians, Germany would have been unified under Austrian rule as a Greater Germany, anyways in 1867 the Austria-Hungary Empire was formed and the German Empire was formed in 1871, after the end of World War I the name of Austria was the Republic of German-Austria and the only reason it never became part of Germany - even though it declared itself a part of the German Republic - was because the Treaty of Versailles strictly forbid the union with Germany and the name.

In 1938 the Anschluss was voted and welcomed by the Austrians, and Hitler, himself an Austrian by birth, made the re-unification of Austria with Germany and now a Greater Germany existed.

So although between 1871 to 1938 the Austrians were Austrians not Germans by nationality/citizenship they still surely were ethnically German, the biggest ethnic group in Austria-Hungary were Germans (24%) and these considered themselves Germans first, Austrians second it seems to have only been after World War II the Austrians have developed their own distinct national identity and reject the German identity and have formed an Austrian nation (although many historians call this a "big lie") but say back in Haydn or Hitler's (two different eras) these both considered themselves Germans, Haydn did the Germany's national anthem (Deutschland über alles) and Hitler was the German leader and did consider himself German despite not being born in Germany because of how it was unified which excluded Austria. Hitler's birthplace has also swapped from Bavarian to Austrian rule four times, so a few hundred years ago he would have been considered German by citizenship as Bavaria is part of Germany (since the unification and today)... surely that must mean if Bavarians are Germans, so are the Austrians.

@ I'm not saying they are Germans by nationality as they are not born German citizens, but surely they still are ethnic Germans so can still be considered German.

Last edited by GermanicPride; 05-06-2012 at 09:21 AM..
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  #2  
Old 05-06-2012, 10:38 AM
BwanaBob BwanaBob is offline
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I would think no more than Australians, Americans, or Canadians would be considered English.
We share a common heritage but are removed from the original source.
  #3  
Old 05-06-2012, 10:39 AM
EmAnJ EmAnJ is offline
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My husband's grandparents are Austrian, and are definitely not German. Two different countries.
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Old 05-06-2012, 10:39 AM
Pitchmeister Pitchmeister is offline
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What's your point exactly? Your username is a little telling here... Austria is a sovereign country and has been for 65+ years, I doubt any of them consider themselves German.

Besides, Haydn did not compose the German national anthem - he wrote a string quartet for the Austrian emperor (Gott erhalte Franz den Kaiser), and many years later, Hoffmann von Fallersleben wrote "Das Lied der Deutschen".

(Which reminds me of a joke that I heard once: What makes the Austrians the smartest people in the world? They managed to convince the world that Hitler was German and that Beethoven was Austrian. )
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Old 05-06-2012, 10:48 AM
GermanicPride GermanicPride is offline
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Originally Posted by EmAnJ View Post
My husband's grandparents are Austrian, and are definitely not German. Two different countries.
Do you not understand the difference between nationality and ethnicity?

Austria was part of Germany until 1866.

I don't think you even read my post.

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Originally Posted by Pitchmeister View Post
What's your point exactly? Your username is a little telling here... Austria is a sovereign country and has been for 65+ years, I doubt any of them consider themselves German.

Besides, Haydn did not compose the German national anthem - he wrote a string quartet for the Austrian emperor (Gott erhalte Franz den Kaiser), and many years later, Hoffmann von Fallersleben wrote "Das Lied der Deutschen".

(Which reminds me of a joke that I heard once: What makes the Austrians the smartest people in the world? They managed to convince the world that Hitler was German and that Beethoven was Austrian. )
My username has very little to do with it, nationality and ethnicity are two different things, I was saying Austrians are ethnically German.

The song was still written by him " The music was written by Joseph Haydn in 1797 as an anthem for the birthday of the Austrian Emperor Francis II of the Holy Roman Empire." This is "song for the Germans" incase you have forgotten, so why would an Austrian write a song if he wasn't a German for the Germans?...

"The absence of an Austrian national identity ... [MODERATOR NOTE: Remainder of extensive quote from another site deleted.]

Last edited by Colibri; 05-06-2012 at 12:07 PM.. Reason: Deleted material copied from another site.
  #6  
Old 05-06-2012, 10:55 AM
Alessan Alessan is offline
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Originally Posted by GermanicPride View Post
Austria was part of Germany until 1866.
There was no "Germany" in 1866. For all effects and purposes, the Holy Roman Empire came to a end with the Peace of Westfalia in 1648, although it had barely existed for centuries before that.
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Old 05-06-2012, 10:58 AM
Pitchmeister Pitchmeister is offline
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Originally Posted by GermanicPride View Post
The song was still written by him " The music was written by Joseph Haydn in 1797 as an anthem for the birthday of the Austrian Emperor Francis II of the Holy Roman Empire." This is "song for the Germans" incase you have forgotten, so why would an Austrian write a song if he wasn't a German for the Germans?...
Except Hoffmann von Fallersleben, who wrote the lyrics, was not born until 1798. It was not a "Song for the Germans" when Haydn wrote it. Get your facts straight.

Anyway, I'm not going to bother with that copied wall of text.
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Old 05-06-2012, 11:11 AM
Ximenean Ximenean is offline
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Originally Posted by GermanicPride View Post
This is "song for the Germans" incase you have forgotten, so why would an Austrian write a song if he wasn't a German for the Germans?...
It is easy to tell when you switch from your own words, which are full of basic mistakes, to stuff that you are copying wholesale from other sources. All one has to do is Google the passages that appear uncharacteristically well-written. For example, the words "the absence of an Austrian national identity was one of the problems confronted when Austria became a country in November 1918" turn up, verbatim, on several other web pages.
  #9  
Old 05-06-2012, 11:18 AM
Cicero Cicero is offline
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A new member pushing a particular POV and taking on some hard nosed members. This can only end in tears.
  #10  
Old 05-06-2012, 11:43 AM
Exapno Mapcase Exapno Mapcase is offline
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Originally Posted by GermanicPride View Post
The absence of an Austrian national identity was one of the problems confronted when Austria became a country in November 1918 (see The End of the Habsburg Empire and the Birth of the Austrian Republic). ...
This is stolen in its entirety from AUSTRIAN NATIONAL IDENTITY. Since it is sourced to the "U.S. Library of Congress" I doubt that's original to you either.

The SDMB is just like school. You can't ever just quote other peoples' words and claim them as you own. You cite them and then use that information to develop your own arguments in your own words.

Your question was "Are Austrians still considered to be Germans?" The answer to that is "no." You know who answered that question? Your own cite.
Quote:
Austrians increasingly identified themselves with their country and saw it as a state with traditions and a history distinct from those of Germany. Although a persistent right-wing minority in Austria continued to insist on "Germanness" as being one of the attributes of being Austrian, ever more Austrians came to identify with the Austrian nation in the decades after World War II. Seventy-nine percent did so by 1990, compared with 47 percent in 1966. In this respect, Austria is a "young nation."
Did you even bother to read the words you stole?

If you want to argue for a different answer the proper etiquette around here is start a thread in one of the debating forums. But you're not not going to get far if your cites keep disproving your claims.
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Old 05-06-2012, 11:44 AM
Donnerwetter Donnerwetter is offline
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For starters, there was never such a thing as a "Kingdom of Germany".

But it's true that until the middle of the 19th century, there was no doubt at all that Austria was a part of Germany and Austrian were Germans.

The situation was somewhat more complicated, though: Austria-Hungary, i. e. the Austrian empire, consisted of German-speaking territories as well as parts with other nationalities.

Today, after two World Wars, this is no longer an issue. There are, however, individuals on the extreme right of the political spectrum in Austria who feel that Austrians are indeed Germans.

The late Austrian far-right politician Jörg Haider ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%B6rg_Haider ) famously called the idea of an Austrian nation an ideological miscarriage.

There is a witty saying that Austrians like to consider Adolf Hitler a German and Ludwig van Beethoven an Austrian.
  #12  
Old 05-06-2012, 12:00 PM
GermanicPride GermanicPride is offline
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Germany before 1871 was only a geographical matter, as a nation-state it existed from 1871 to present.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...d/HRR_10Jh.jpg

Austria is there.

I didn't deny Austrians have their own national identity and nation now but they are still ethnically German.

98% of Austria's population are Germans.

@ "Austrian" is a nationality, there is no ethnic group by Austrians are ethnic Germans. You cannot separate Germany and Austria history, until 1866 Austria was part of Germany's history.

Last edited by GermanicPride; 05-06-2012 at 12:00 PM..
  #13  
Old 05-06-2012, 12:10 PM
Colibri Colibri is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GermanicPride View Post
"The absence of an Austrian national identity ... [MODERATOR NOTE: Remainder of extensive quote from another site deleted.]
Moderator Note

GermanicPride, do not copy and paste material from other sites without attribution. You may quote brief passages, but otherwise should just provide links to material you wish to reference.

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  #14  
Old 05-06-2012, 12:15 PM
Dissonance Dissonance is online now
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Originally Posted by Alessan View Post
There was no "Germany" in 1866.
This. Why should anyone bother reading your half plagiarized posts when you make statements as completely wrong as the one this is in reply to? How exactly was Austria part of Germany in 1866 when Germany didn't exist until 1871?
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Old 05-06-2012, 12:15 PM
John Mace John Mace is offline
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There is no single definition of "ethnicity". However, it's hard to argue against self-identity, and if Austrians don't self identify as Germans, then they're not.
  #16  
Old 05-06-2012, 12:19 PM
ralph124c ralph124c is offline
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Do they still speak Austrian in Austria?
  #17  
Old 05-06-2012, 12:24 PM
LawMonkey LawMonkey is offline
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Do they still speak Austrian in Austria?
I'm not sure, but they still don't have any kangaroos.
  #18  
Old 05-06-2012, 12:41 PM
Donnerwetter Donnerwetter is offline
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I guess a good analogy is the relationship between Canada (the English speaking part) and the United States. Canadians for the most part do not consider themselves Americans (American meaning: USA) at all, they probably outright reject that idea.

However, Americans and Canadians share the same language and have very much in common in every aspect of life. Somebody from a totally different culture like, let's say, in Southeast Asia, would probably say that the differences are almost negligible.

That is, at least in my mind, pretty much also the situation with Germany and Austria.
  #19  
Old 05-06-2012, 12:52 PM
Attack from the 3rd dimension Attack from the 3rd dimension is offline
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A new member pushing a particular POV and taking on some hard nosed members. This can only end in tears.
Could be worse, it could be an issue of ethnicity, race and cultural identity. And that Username is clearly someone with no axe to grind. And we haven't mentioned Hitler yet.



Actually, I'm only trying to post before the thread is locked.
  #20  
Old 05-06-2012, 12:59 PM
Exapno Mapcase Exapno Mapcase is offline
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Do they still speak Austrian in Austria?
Yep, just like they speak Canadian in Canada and American in America.
  #21  
Old 05-06-2012, 01:01 PM
John Mace John Mace is offline
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Another analogy might be Serbs and Croats. Same language, but different religions.

Austria has historically been a majority Catholic region while Germany is minority Catholic (since the reformation, that is). Religion goes a long way in defining ethnicity, or at least it used to.

And we hoo-mans are endless splitters. We look for differences, and find them whether they are there or not.
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Old 05-06-2012, 01:41 PM
Polycarp Polycarp is offline
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I'm not sure, but they still don't have any kangaroos.
Oh, yeah?
  #23  
Old 05-06-2012, 01:59 PM
John Mace John Mace is offline
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Well I'll be damned. The next thing you know, they'll be throwin' some shrimp on the barbie!
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Old 05-06-2012, 02:35 PM
dropzone dropzone is offline
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The next thing you know, they'll be throwin' some shrimp on the barbie!
They probably do on Fridays, being Catholic and all.
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Old 05-06-2012, 02:37 PM
Colibri Colibri is offline
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Well I'll be damned. The next thing you know, they'll be throwin' some shrimp on the barbie!
Those are wallabies, not kangaroos. They come from Wallachia.
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Old 05-06-2012, 02:47 PM
dropzone dropzone is offline
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As for the OP, I'm surprised GermanicPride would even want to include Austrians under the Germanic big tent, considering how they want their own country. I wouldn't want such splitters included with me, a full-blooded German.

Okay, half-blooded. But the rest of my ancestors came from Norway and Bohemia, both countries conquered by the Germans*, and Ireland, a country that remained neutral in WWII.


* Modified in the edit because I first used "Nazi" but realized that was a weasel word that many people use to distance the German people from the Nazi Party, for which most of them worked or even fought.

Last edited by dropzone; 05-06-2012 at 02:50 PM..
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Old 05-06-2012, 03:14 PM
Tamerlane Tamerlane is offline
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Originally Posted by Donnerwetter View Post
I guess a good analogy is the relationship between Canada (the English speaking part) and the United States. Canadians for the most part do not consider themselves Americans (American meaning: USA) at all, they probably outright reject that idea.

However, Americans and Canadians share the same language and have very much in common in every aspect of life.
I think this about sums it up.

The Netherlands, Belgium, Austria, Luxembourg, much of Switzerland, Lichtenstein, Alsace, etc. aren't part of the nation of Germany today, even though they were once part of the geographical region of Germany and even the loose medieval notion of Germany as a constituent unit of the HRE ( the terms "Kingdom of Germany" and "King of Germans" were bandied about, but generally as a quasi-synonym for the HRE ). That this is so is down to a series of historical accidents and political gyrations, but that's a pretty much universal experience. That the majority of Swiss speak German dialects and live in what was once part of the German stem duchy of Swabia, doesn't make them any less Swiss or any more German.

Last edited by Tamerlane; 05-06-2012 at 03:17 PM..
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Old 05-06-2012, 03:19 PM
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I think any hope of Austrians self-identifying as German ended with the Anschluss.
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  #29  
Old 05-06-2012, 03:50 PM
Tibby or Not Tibby Tibby or Not Tibby is offline
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Originally Posted by Pitchmeister View Post
(Which reminds me of a joke that I heard once: What makes the Austrians the smartest people in the world? They managed to convince the world that Hitler was German and that Beethoven was Austrian. )
…even sneakier, they’ve erroneously led us to believe Mozart was Austrian, too.
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  #30  
Old 05-06-2012, 04:01 PM
Shagnasty Shagnasty is offline
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I have always heard that if tourists want to experience the 'real' Germany, they should go to Austria. Austrians supposedly do the whole German thing better than Germans these days.
  #31  
Old 05-06-2012, 04:15 PM
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"King of the Germans" was a historic title with varying degrees of significance. In Carolingian times, it was a real monarchy. In the early years of the Ottonian-Hohenstaufen HRE, it was significant as a suzerain sort of overloprdship -- and was distinguished from the Kings of the Lombards/Italy and of Bohemia. Later, it came to be a secondary title of the Emperor or of his heir apparent -- which one held it varied with time -- and was consolidated into the Habsburg titles. As Italy and Switzerland fell out of the Empire, there were therefore only two kings within it -- and after 1648 they were both the same man, the habsburg Emperor. (This by the way is why the various Grand Dukes and Electors snagged Kingly titles outside the Empire -- Xaxony for a while holding Poland, Brandenburg taking Prussia, Hannover by coincidence inheriting Great Britain, etc. -- you were king of a nation, and Germany, fragmented as it was, was conceptually one nation.

Last edited by Polycarp; 05-06-2012 at 04:16 PM..
  #32  
Old 05-06-2012, 08:44 PM
dropzone dropzone is offline
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Here's a clue for the OP, free of charge: Did you ever think the Austrians don't WANT to be associated with the Germans, for some pretty obvious reasons if you think about it? That German history in the first half of the 20th century was nothing to be proud of? Okay, Austria made some oopsies of their own, but there is no point in taking ownership of the other stuff, too.
  #33  
Old 05-06-2012, 09:56 PM
aceplace57 aceplace57 is offline
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Isn't Arnold Schwarzenegger Austrian? I always thought of him as a German. <shrug> They can call themselves whatever they want, but their German heritage is pretty hard to deny. Any peoples are free to go in a different direction if they want. I gather from this thread Austrians are... Austrians and nothing else then.

Last edited by aceplace57; 05-06-2012 at 09:59 PM..
  #34  
Old 05-06-2012, 09:58 PM
GermanicPride GermanicPride is offline
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Originally Posted by Dissonance View Post
This. Why should anyone bother reading your half plagiarized posts when you make statements as completely wrong as the one this is in reply to? How exactly was Austria part of Germany in 1866 when Germany didn't exist until 1871?
"Germany" did exist before 1871 just not as a nation-state, the German Empire which made the unification was forwarded by Prussia instead of Austria - so if history had turned out differently Austria would have unified Germany and not Prussia, so are you then saying Prussians would have stopped being Germans?

If Bavaria separated now from Germany would Bavarians stop being Germans? Many Bavarians consider themselves different and Bavarian first, German second.

Many cities and towns have switched from Bavarian to Austrian rule, Hitler's birthplace is a prime example or Mozart's which I said in my first post so if you was born under Bavarian rule, and so was your child, but then it switched to Austrian rule and their child was born under Austrian rule would that mean they would not be German in your eyes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Mace View Post
There is no single definition of "ethnicity". However, it's hard to argue against self-identity, and if Austrians don't self identify as Germans, then they're not.
There is a definition of ethnicity and a German-speaking Austrian is by definition an ethnic German.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ralph124c View Post
Do they still speak Austrian in Austria?
The official language of Austria is German.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dropzone View Post
As for the OP, I'm surprised GermanicPride would even want to include Austrians under the Germanic big tent, considering how they want their own country. I wouldn't want such splitters included with me, a full-blooded German.

Okay, half-blooded. But the rest of my ancestors came from Norway and Bohemia, both countries conquered by the Germans*, and Ireland, a country that remained neutral in WWII.


* Modified in the edit because I first used "Nazi" but realized that was a weasel word that many people use to distance the German people from the Nazi Party, for which most of them worked or even fought.
But if history had turned out differently the Austrians would have unified Germany and nobody would be questioning whether they are Germans or not, being conquered is totally different to having historical settlement of Germans.

Austria was the most dominant German state for centuries.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
I think any hope of Austrians self-identifying as German ended with the Anschluss.
I think you mean since World War II as the Anschluss was voted and welcomed by the Austrians.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dropzone View Post
Here's a clue for the OP, free of charge: Did you ever think the Austrians don't WANT to be associated with the Germans, for some pretty obvious reasons if you think about it? That German history in the first half of the 20th century was nothing to be proud of? Okay, Austria made some oopsies of their own, but there is no point in taking ownership of the other stuff, too.
How can you deny your heritage? They are ethnically German, stop confusing citizenship with ethnicity.

What happened in the early 20th century is up to a person whether their want to be or not, that is a flawed argument.
  #35  
Old 05-06-2012, 10:07 PM
alphaboi867 alphaboi867 is offline
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Originally Posted by GermanicPride View Post
...I think you mean since World War II as the Anschluss was voted and welcomed by the Austrians...
Yes, it was. And in a free & fair election too.
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Old 05-06-2012, 10:09 PM
Colibri Colibri is offline
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Since the OP is more interested in debating than in simply asking for factual information, let's move this over to Great Debates.

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Last edited by Colibri; 05-06-2012 at 10:11 PM..
  #37  
Old 05-06-2012, 10:11 PM
John Mace John Mace is offline
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Originally Posted by GermanicPride View Post
There is a definition of ethnicity
What is it, and what is your source? Ethnicities often are centered around language-- except when they're not. Note my example of Serbs and Croats.

Quote:
The official language of Austria is German.
And I'm an American. Our language is English, but that does make me ethnically English. The idea is absurd, even though I do have some ancestors from England, I have many more who weren't.



Quote:
But if history had turned out differently the Austrians would have unified Germany and nobody would be questioning whether they are Germans or not
Yeah, if pigs had wings they could fly. But they don't, and history didn't turn out differently. If history had turned out differently, the Irish would be English and the Italians would be Greeks. And maybe the Germans would be Slavs.
  #38  
Old 05-06-2012, 11:10 PM
dropzone dropzone is offline
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And maybe the Germans would be Slavs.
Oooh! That's fighting dirty, given our new friend's appreciation of Mr Hitler's finer qualities and his dislike of the slanders said against him.

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...0&postcount=15

Last edited by dropzone; 05-06-2012 at 11:11 PM..
  #39  
Old 05-06-2012, 11:40 PM
John Mace John Mace is offline
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The funny thing is, Austrians could be ethnic Germans. Or not. It's just a silly, arbitrary classification that either could go this way or that. It really makes no difference, and the fact is we have two separate countries now, Germany and Austria, and there is no reason to think they would want to unify voluntarily. They are both part of the EU, with the same currency, and anyone from either country can move across the border and work and establish residency.

Last edited by John Mace; 05-06-2012 at 11:41 PM..
  #40  
Old 05-07-2012, 12:03 AM
dropzone dropzone is offline
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Deleted a joke that was not appropriate for GD. I will wait until our host's inevitable Pitting.

Last edited by dropzone; 05-07-2012 at 12:05 AM..
  #41  
Old 05-07-2012, 12:51 AM
Darth Panda Darth Panda is offline
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Originally Posted by GermanicPride View Post
a German-speaking Austrian is by definition an ethnic German.
What'a the point of asking "Are Austrians still considered to be Germans?" if you already have your answer?

There are probably lots of people in Austria who would be considered "ethnically German" by various definitions - there are tons in America, too. Who cares about ethnicity, though? Americans are American and Austrians and Austrian. Get over it.

Last edited by Darth Panda; 05-07-2012 at 12:54 AM..
  #42  
Old 05-07-2012, 12:54 AM
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A German guy I knew back in the 1980s (youngish and, I think, fairly leftish politically) told me that he considered Austrians to be Germans. They all share the same cultural and linguistic heritage. Dosen't the very name Austria just mean "the south," i.e., the south part of the Germanic lands (as Australia is the southern continent).
  #43  
Old 05-07-2012, 01:03 AM
Marley23 Marley23 is offline
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Dosen't the very name Austria just mean "the south," i.e., the south part of the Germanic lands (as Australia is the southern continent).
The name Austria comes from the German word for East, and the name of Australia comes from the Latin word for south. It's just our luck that they sound pretty much the same and are translated into English with similar spellings.
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Old 05-07-2012, 01:21 AM
Princhester Princhester is offline
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GermanicPride the question you ask doesn't present difficulties because of factual issue but because of a lack of clear definition.

You ask whether Austrians can be "considered German". Do something for yourself. Set out exactly what it is to be German. Type out a definition and post it here.

I would quite confidently predict that by the definition you would use, Austrians are German.

However, I would also quite confidently predict that Austrians who don't call themselves German would use a different definition, by which they are Austrian and not German.

In other words, the debate here is not "who is German" it is "what is it to be German"? And there is no objective way of deciding the debate.

I would however comment that I suspect your definition involves reference to the past (and perhaps past perceived glories) while the definition used by Austrians who do not see themselves as German would involve reference to the present.

Last edited by Princhester; 05-07-2012 at 01:22 AM..
  #45  
Old 05-07-2012, 01:32 AM
GermanicPride GermanicPride is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alphaboi867 View Post
Yes, it was. And in a free & fair election too.
Yes they did and the pre-Anschluss in 1918 was only stopped by the Treaty of Versailles, read up on the Republic of German-Austria.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Mace View Post
What is it, and what is your source? Ethnicities often are centered around language-- except when they're not. Note my example of Serbs and Croats.


And I'm an American. Our language is English, but that does make me ethnically English. The idea is absurd, even though I do have some ancestors from England, I have many more who weren't.




Yeah, if pigs had wings they could fly. But they don't, and history didn't turn out differently. If history had turned out differently, the Irish would be English and the Italians would be Greeks. And maybe the Germans would be Slavs.
I'm sure you could google ethnic group and find out quite easily yourself what an ethnicity of someone is.

Your argument on pigs could fly if history had turned out differently is totally flawed in what I was meaning, if the Austrians had unified Germany and not the Prussians nobody now would be saying Austrians are not Germans... Bismarck even wanted to keep the Bavarians out of Germany they only got included in the German Empire because the Bavarians joined in with the Franco-Prussian war of 1870.

Like I said as well, Hitler was Austrian by birth and always considered himself German many felt the same as Austrian Germans.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Mace View Post
The funny thing is, Austrians could be ethnic Germans. Or not. It's just a silly, arbitrary classification that either could go this way or that. It really makes no difference, and the fact is we have two separate countries now, Germany and Austria, and there is no reason to think they would want to unify voluntarily. They are both part of the EU, with the same currency, and anyone from either country can move across the border and work and establish residency.
I am on about why is it Austrians can't be considered Germans when they are ethnic Germans.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Panda View Post
What'a the point of asking "Are Austrians still considered to be Germans?" if you already have your answer?

There are probably lots of people in Austria who would be considered "ethnically German" by various definitions - there are tons in America, too. Who cares about ethnicity, though? Americans are American and Austrians and Austrian. Get over it.
Austria and Germany share much more than just a language, and America is just defined as a nationality not an ethnicity, I never said Austrians weren't just Austrians in the nationality sense, since they are not born German citizens.

Quote:
Originally Posted by njtt View Post
A German guy I knew back in the 1980s (youngish and, I think, fairly leftish politically) told me that he considered Austrians to be Germans. They all share the same cultural and linguistic heritage. Dosen't the very name Austria just mean "the south," i.e., the south part of the Germanic lands (as Australia is the southern continent).
This is what I mean... some say they are Germans (lots of whom I spoke to agree) and Southern Germany and Austria have shared land of the years, from Bavarian to Austrian rule loads.

Yes, Austria means "east" "reich" of Germany.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Princhester View Post
GermanicPride the question you ask doesn't present difficulties because of factual issue but because of a lack of clear definition.

You ask whether Austrians can be "considered German". Do something for yourself. Set out exactly what it is to be German. Type out a definition and post it here.

I would quite confidently predict that by the definition you would use, Austrians are German.

However, I would also quite confidently predict that Austrians who don't call themselves German would use a different definition, by which they are Austrian and not German.

In other words, the debate here is not "who is German" it is "what is it to be German"? And there is no objective way of deciding the debate.

I would however comment that I suspect your definition involves reference to the past (and perhaps past perceived glories) while the definition used by Austrians who do not see themselves as German would involve reference to the present.
I think that's true, what means German now did not mean the same as 100 years ago or 200 years ago, like was Mozart an Austrian or German? No nation-state of Germany existed but the Austrians considered themselves Germans.

I define Austrians as ethnic Germans, so do demographics of Austria as well - I think they just reject the German identity since WW2 for obvious reasons, despite like I've said Hitler the German Nazi leader himself was an Austrian by birth, but you can see as he was an ethnic German why many Austrians felt the same as him since Austria for centuries had been the most dominant German state, Pan-Germanism only declined in popularity since WW2.
  #46  
Old 05-07-2012, 01:41 AM
Marley23 Marley23 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GermanicPride View Post
I am on about why is it Austrians can't be considered Germans when they are ethnic Germans.
It sounds like they don't think of themselves that way. Your original question wasn't "can they be considered German," it was "are they considered German?" And it sounds clear the answer is no.
  #47  
Old 05-07-2012, 02:08 AM
Chronos Chronos is offline
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Quote:
I define Austrians as ethnic Germans...
Oh, so by your definition, Germans aren't ethnic Germans, only Austrians? I guess you can define the words you use however you like, but I've got to tell you, that's an awfully peculiar definition.

And the Anschluss might not have ruled out Austrian self-identification as German at the time, but nowadays, nobody sane wants to associate themselves with the Nazis.
  #48  
Old 05-07-2012, 02:22 AM
foolsguinea foolsguinea is offline
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German is a language group. Swabians and Saxons aren't really the same ethnicity, why would Austrians be "the same ethnicity"? Many Lithuanian Jews spoke a German dialect, as did others in Mitteleuropa. Are they all "ethnic Germans"?

I'm from Missouri, for crying out loud. I'm descended from Germans, but I speak American English. What's my "ethnicity"?
  #49  
Old 05-07-2012, 02:24 AM
Rune Rune is offline
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Yes. The Germans living in Austria share the same linguistic, historic, ethnic, and cultural background as the Germans living in Germany. And only by some particular historic circumstances did they not end up in the same nationstate as the majority of Germans. Although manipulated by the Nazis, the Anschluss was undoubtedly genuinely popular.

I think many Austrians identify themselves as both Germans and Austrians, the same way a Frenchman may identify himself as French and a person from Lorraine; I think other Europeans have a hard time differentiating between Germans and Austrians without being specifically told which is which. Certainly it is not particular evident when driving south through the two nations.

WW-II and all that silliness is water under the bridge, the only people that give a damn anymore are ironically Germans. I’m all for the Germanic people uniting in a single pan-Germanic nation if they so wish. But I think there is little interest in it these days, and it seems like a quaint idea from another time. Anyway they have the EU, so perhaps there is also little reason. Perhaps if the EU fails, we’ll see a resurgent of pan-Germanic sentiments.
  #50  
Old 05-07-2012, 03:10 AM
Pitchmeister Pitchmeister is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
And the Anschluss might not have ruled out Austrian self-identification as German at the time, but nowadays, nobody sane wants to associate themselves with the Nazis.
Bolding mine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rune View Post
WW-II and all that silliness is water under the bridge, the only people that give a damn anymore are ironically Germans. I’m all for the Germanic people uniting in a single pan-Germanic nation if they so wish. But I think there is little interest in it these days, and it seems like a quaint idea from another time. Anyway they have the EU, so perhaps there is also little reason. Perhaps if the EU fails, we’ll see a resurgent of pan-Germanic sentiments.
Oh, yes, WWII and all that silliness - nobody talks about that anymore.
Nowadays we just have a good laugh at the Holocaust and millions of people killed in a senseless war started by a madman and a criminal evil regime. Truly water under the bridge, no harm, no foul.

Go ahead, ask the Swiss and the Austrians about this awesome idea of yours about the pan-Germanic nation, but be sure to wear your running shoes.

Maybe the OP and you should get together sometime and exchange ideas (or maybe not).
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