Head Coach in professional sports who never was an active athlete himself?

[Donnerwetter]

Many athletes who have had very undistinguished active playing careers move on to become successful coaches in their sports on the highest level.

Up until recently, there was a team manager in the highest division of professional soccer in Germany who himself had only played on the lowest level of organized amateur competition (were more often than not players don't bother to show up for practise on a regular basis).

What if you take that notion to the extreme: Is it all conceivable that an individual who has never played, let's say, American Football, even on a high school team, becomes the head coach of an NFL team?

I can only recall one such case: Many years ago, there was a US(?) hockey coach who had never been an active hockey player himself.

[nudgenudge]

Well, he did play at youth level so it doesn't quite count, but it's still noteworthy that Jose Mourinho never played professionally (for non-fans, he's arguably the world's top soccer coach, currently at Real Madrid). He went straight into coaching from school.
Edit: hmm, having checked a bit more carefully, it seems he did have a brief, unsuccessful professional career.

[Munch]

It doesn't quite meet the OP's restrictions, but to consider Lou Holtz's stint at Kent State as a 125 pound linebacker to be anything close to resembling an effective football player would be an insult to 130 pound weaklings everywhere.

[samclem]

Moved from GQ to the Game Room.

samclem

[Ike Witt]

Originally Posted by Donnerwetter

I can only recall one such case: Many years ago, there was a US(?) hockey coach who had never been an active hockey player himself.

I'm pretty sure that current St. Louis Blues coach Ken Hitchcock never played hockey, at least not Junior A, or higher.

[mkecane]

Jose Mourinho was the first person to come to mind for me.

[Tom Scud]

Mike Leach was a successful coach in US college football before being fired due to a scandal. He didn't play at the college level, but apparently was a backup on his high school football team.

[cmkeller]

Ted Turner was officially the manager of the Atlanta Braves briefly.

[Nava]

Originally Posted by Donnerwetter

What if you take that notion to the extreme: Is it all conceivable that an individual who has never played, let's say, American Football, even on a high school team, becomes the head coach of an NFL team?

I can't remember his name, but I recently saw an article about a young (Portuguese?) soccer coach spending some time with one of Spain's biggest - the young coach has a thalidomide-syndrome-like birth defect which makes it impossible for him to play, but apparently he's a good coach. Not at the top of the game - but young enough and good enough that this may carry a "yet". Stranger things you will see, my friend Sancho...


Not what the OP asks about, but Vicente del Bosque (currently coach of the Spanish National Team) had played professionally and at the international level; at one point, Real Madrid fired its coach and put him in place as a "filler": he had no previous coaching experience. Another "fill in" stint, then to coach one of the junior teams, then he was the first team's coach for several years and now he coaches the Furia. Not exactly what one would think of as a "standard career path": if you'd told him in 1994 that he'd eventually coach the Furia he would have burst out laughing. Soccer has as many improbable stories as tales of people with perfectly logical careers.

[Munch]

Charlie Weis was the head coach of Notre Dame and now Kansas. He never played college ball - I'm not sure about high school.

[hammos1]

Gérard Houllier, former manager of the French national side, and Liverpool FC, never played professionally.

[Blkshp]

Carlos Tosca managed the Toronto Blue Jays never having played professional baseball. I think he's a coach for the Braves now.

[kidchameleon]

Rick Majerus couldn't cut it as a basketball player but has done pretty well as a coach.

[howye]

Ken Hitchcock. Stanley Cup winning coach, never played organized hockey.

[RealityChuck]

There are NFL coaches who never played pro football; Weeb Eubank and Bill Parcells even won Super Bowls without any pro experience. Both did play a bit in college, though.

[DCnDC]

Todd Haley, former Head Coach of the Kansas City Chiefs (currently offensive coordinator for the Steelers) never played a lick of football. Started in the scouting department of the Jets where his father was Director of Player Personnel, and worked his way up.

I don't think Al Davis was ever a player either.

[astorian]

Why should it be surprising that a coach was never a college or even high school jock himself?

Remember something: for most young males with an interest in sports, coaching is Plan B!

What I mean is, there are millions of little boys who dream of playing shortstop for the Yankees or pitching for the Dodgers. But there has probably NEVER been an 8 year old boy who dreamed of being manager of the Yankees or pitching coach of the Dodgers.

Millions of 8 year old boys fantasize about being LeBron James- no 8 year old boy dreams of being Stan Van Gundy or Mike Kryszewski.

Millions of little boys have Tom Brady or Eli Manning posters on their walls. Seen any kids with Nick Saban or Tom Coughlin posters?

Point is, little boys dream of being ATHLETES, not coaches. When do they START to think about becoming coaches? Whenever they start playing in a league where they're just not very good. The sooner a kid realizes, "These other guys are just waaaay better than me, and I'll never be good enough to compete with them," the sooner they'll turn to Plan B, and think about coaching.

Here's an illustration of what I mean: Dan Fouts and Norv Turner are the same age. They were both star quarterbacks in high school. They both received scholarships to play at the University of Oregon. After that, their paths diverged drastically. Fouts was a GREAT quarterback, and went on to become a star in the NFL. Turner figured out that he'd never be good enough to start at Oregon, let alone in the NFL, so he started working his way up as a coach. He served as an assistant at a few colleges, then became a receivers coach for the Rams, gradually getting an offensive coordinator job with the Cowboys.

Now... is Dan Fouts SMART enough to be a pro football coach? SURE, he is... but by the time he retired, in his late thirties, Norv Turner had already put in years as a coach and gained valuable experience. VERY few pro teams will give a head coaching to a man without years of experience. Is a longtime star likely to spend years doing the grunt work of an assistant coach or minor league coach, just to get the experience?

Well, a FEW Hall of Famers have done so (Ryne Sandberg comes to mind), but as a rule, stars are NOT going to stoop that low. Hence, most coaches and managers are guys who gave up all hope at playing sports themselves a LONG time ago.

[mnemosyne]

I don't think Jacques Martin has ever played any professional hockey - he was a high school French teacher who coached the local junior team (and then moved to another team in Guelph and won a Memorial Cup) before moving up to the NHL and coaching the St. Louis Blues.

Likewise, I don't think Jacques Demers played pro hockey at any level - at least his wikipedia article doesn't say. Amazingly enough, he had a 20 year NHL coaching career, won a Stanley Cup, had a reasonably successful hockey analyst career on TV and became a Canadian Senator (fluently bilingual) all while being functionally illiterate.

[Munch]

Originally Posted by astorian

Why should it be surprising that a coach was never a college or even high school jock himself?

Well, a FEW Hall of Famers have done so (Ryne Sandberg comes to mind), but as a rule, stars are NOT going to stoop that low. Hence, most coaches and managers are guys who gave up all hope at playing sports themselves a LONG time ago.

You've somehow skipped over the important part of the question. Somewhere in there, you started equating "played in high school" with "superstar athlete".

The question isn't "are there any coaches who were not superstar athletes" it is "are there any coaches who NEVER played".

[Loach]

Jeff and Stan Van Gundy. They were the son of a college basketball coach and both started off trying to be coaches. It may be possible but I don't even see any mention of playing in high school. Lets be kind and say neither have the build to be a successful basketball player.

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

Originally Posted by Loach

Lets be kind and say neither have the build to be a successful basketball player.

This statement evinces fond memories of an NBA coach precariously clinging to Alonzo Mourning's leg during a brawl...good times.

[RealityChuck]

Ken Shipp coached the NY Jets as an interim coach in 1975. As far I can see, he didn't play college FB.

[Donnerwetter]

Originally Posted by Munch

You've somehow skipped over the important part of the question. Somewhere in there, you started equating "played in high school" with "superstar athlete".

The question isn't "are there any coaches who were not superstar athletes" it is "are there any coaches who NEVER played".

Right. But it would be hard to imagine a coach who has never played the sport at least recreationally, i. e. played basketball in the driveway.

[Nava]

Originally Posted by Donnerwetter

Right. But it would be hard to imagine a coach who has never played the sport at least recreationally, i. e. played basketball in the driveway.

That's not "playing basketball", that's "tossing a few balls", at least in Spain. It's practice, not the game. The guy I mentioned in my previous post cannot play soccer at all: no practice, no nothing.

[Loach]

Originally Posted by FoieGrasIsEvil

This statement evinces fond memories of an NBA coach precariously clinging to Alonzo Mourning's leg during a brawl...good times.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWqv5fNeosc

[Munch]

Originally Posted by Donnerwetter

Right. But it would be hard to imagine a coach who has never played the sport at least recreationally, i. e. played basketball in the driveway.

And you've taken "playing in the driveway" and equated it with "played organized ball in high school". This thread is really weird.

[Donnerwetter]

Originally Posted by Nava

That's not "playing basketball", that's "tossing a few balls", at least in Spain. It's practice, not the game. The guy I mentioned in my previous post cannot play soccer at all: no practice, no nothing.

I understand that. But he never had the option of playing soccer because he is physically impaired.

On the other hand, why would an able-bodied individual develop an interest in, say, basketball and become an outstanding coach if he never at least touched a basketball? But you're right, "tossing a few balls" is essentially the same as "has never played".

[Donnerwetter]

Originally Posted by Munch

And you've taken "playing in the driveway" and equated it with "played organized ball in high school". This thread is really weird.

I didn't want to try a definition of "never played" which is too convoluted.

Let's try this example: I never held a Lacrosse racket in my hand, I have never watched a Lacrosse match and I don't know one bit about the sport. Therefore, I'm not a Lacrosse player.

I never played soccer in an organized competition, but I do know how to handle a soccer ball, I know the rules and I watch soccer games all the time. But that doesn't make me a soccer player either, however, there is a difference in my attitudes towards Lacrosse and towards soccer.

[Jimmy Chitwood]

Originally Posted by Loach

Jeff and Stan Van Gundy. They were the son of a college basketball coach and both started off trying to be coaches. It may be possible but I don't even see any mention of playing in high school. Lets be kind and say neither have the build to be a successful basketball player.

Jeff Van Gundy started at point guard for Nazareth, and Stan played for SUNY Brockport for his dad. They were both high school superstars. Contrary to astorian's (it seems to me entirely unsubstantiated) comment that it shouldn't be rare, it's pretty much unheard of for a professional coach to not have been at the very least a serious college player.

[The Other Jeffrey Lebowski]

Originally Posted by astorian

Hence, most coaches and managers are guys who gave up all hope at playing sports themselves a LONG time ago.

Every single current MLB manager played professionally at some level. 21 out of the 30 NBA HC's played professionally.
Football is the sport where astorian's argument makes the strongest case, where 18 of the 32 HC's never played professionally, and one that did - Mike Smith - only played for one season in the CFL.

[RealityChuck]

In the NBA, you do have Eddie Gottleib, who coached the Philadelpha Warriors in the 1950s. Gottleib evidently didn't play basketball at all. He organized one of the first pro barnstorming teams, the Philadelpha Sphas* and joined the NBA when it came along.


*An acronym for the South Philadelphia Hebrew Association, who bought the team their first uniforms.

[brickbacon]

Former Chiefs HC, and current Steelers OC, Todd Haley never played organized football. Al Davis, AFAICT, never played organized football. Bruce Pearl never played college basketball. Some sites say Joe Gibbs didn't play college or professional football. The wiki seems to say he did, but I guess people disagree about that.

[ElvisL1ves]

Here's one: NFL placekicking coach Doug Blevins has not walked since he was 3, due to cerebral palsy.

[Kitten Mitten]

2 examples:

Lawrence Frank, head coach of the Detroit Pistons was a student manager only at IU for the General and didn't make his hs team; although he did play on a CYO team and in a community league.

I was also going to say Tom Crean, head coach of IU, since he didn't play in college but apparently he played in hs.

[RickJay]

Originally Posted by astorian

Why should it be surprising that a coach was never a college or even high school jock himself?

Remember something: for most young males with an interest in sports, coaching is Plan B!

Well, it's surprising because it's simply not very common, for one thing. Aside from Ken Hitchcock, how many NHL coaches didn't play at least high level minor hockey, if not NHL or lower pro hockey? I can't think of any. John Tortorella played in the ACHL, Paul McLean scored 324 goals in the NHL, Kirk Muller was a wonderful NHL player, Alain Vigneault had a cup of coffee with the Blues - almost any coach I pick at random was a pro. A very few coaches didn't get out of top junior (like Barry Trotz) but that's a LOT of high level hockey just to make it there.

Baseball? Same thing. NFL? Most coaches played NCAA ball at least.

It's incredibly difficult to learn how to manage or coach if you don't play. How do you know the feel of a locker room, the way to manage and inspire players, if you were not once yourself a player? And how do you command the respect of professional athletes if you didn't play? Carlos Tosca, mentioned upthread, DID get shit from some of his players for never having played pro ball.

Where never-played guys have success, quite often is in the front office, as the general managers and architects of teams. I can cite dozens of examples. But the field manager/coach benefits enormously from knowing the locker room and the dynamics of a team from the inside.

[Cheesesteak]

Originally Posted by brickbacon

Al Davis, AFAICT, never played organized football.

According to IMDB Al played (or tried to play) football at Syracuse. Got cut from the team.

Outside of the locker room aspect, isn't a coach (and his staff) supposed to have some kind of worthwhile input into game technique? How do you get the most out of your players if you've never played, never experienced what happens on the field/court/ice? Having reasonably high level playing experience must give a coach a wealth of knowledge to draw from in his coaching job.

[RealityChuck]

Since it's demonstrable that there is no correlation between athletic prowess and the ability to coach, it's silly to argue that you can't coach unless you've been a player.

It's far more likely that a player gets to know the right people and makes the right connections to be thought of for a coaching job. Who you know is much more important than what you know when hiring coaches (hence certain coaches are rehired despite being fired from other teams, and when a team is hiring, there are always those with previous top-level experience in the mix).

Someone who signs on as an assistant student coach in college, and who moves on to assistant coaching and finally coaching jobs can certainly develop the ability to coach at the top level. The problem is breaking through the barrier. If you are a player, you get to meet and befriend people who hire coaches. If you've been coaching at a non-pro level, the jump to pros is very hard to do when you don't know anyone in the pros. Not to mention that college coaching is far different than pro coaching, since a key element -- recruiting players -- is not necessary in the pros.

[Cheesesteak]

Originally Posted by RealityChuck

Since it's demonstrable that there is no correlation between athletic prowess and the ability to coach, it's silly to argue that you can't coach unless you've been a player.

There's no correlation between being a great athlete and being a great coach. However, never actually playing the sport on a serious basis makes it less likely that you will have the intimate knowledge of the sport necessary to be a good coach. Can you really correct someone's fundamentals if you've never played? Perhaps, but I think it would be much more difficult for a non-player than someone who has played at a high level (even just Div 1 college)

[kenobi 65]

Originally Posted by RealityChuck

It's far more likely that a player gets to know the right people and makes the right connections to be thought of for a coaching job. Who you know is much more important than what you know when hiring coaches (hence certain coaches are rehired despite being fired from other teams, and when a team is hiring, there are always those with previous top-level experience in the mix).

I remember reading an article in Football Digest back in the late 1970s, talking about the poor track record of former NFL quarterbacks as head coaches in the NFL. The article focused on Bart Starr (Hall of Fame QB for the Packers, who was just embarking on what proved to be a disappointing tenure as head coach of the Pack), but also discussed guys like Norm Van Brocklin (losing record as coach of the Vikings and Falcons) and Sammy Baugh (just under a .500 record with Titans and Oilers in the early days of the AFL). More recently, Steve Spurrier, who was a middling NFL quarterback, went from being a top college coach, to a losing NFL coach with the Redskins.

One would *think* that a good QB would have the tools to be a good NFL head coach, but there doesn't appear to yet be a case in the NFL where a man has been good at both.

[Donnerwetter]

Here's a random thought: It might actually be more feasible to be the coach of a professional team than of a college team if you haven't played the game yourself on a high level:

Athletes who join a professional team are top of the heap anyway and they are already very complete players when it comes to the basics. For instance these young pros don't need to be shown how to swing a baseball bat. The coach can then concentrate on tactical and strategical aspects of the game.

[Tom Tildrum]

What about if we limit the question to championship coaches who never played? Dick Motta of the NBA's Washington Bullets comes to mind.

[Enlightening Meditation]

Originally Posted by Munch

Charlie Weis was the head coach of Notre Dame and now Kansas. He never played college ball - I'm not sure about high school.

He was the first person I thought of as well. Weis head coached at both the NCAA and NFL level, but played in neither league.

[RickJay]

Originally Posted by RealityChuck

Since it's demonstrable that there is no correlation between athletic prowess and the ability to coach

I would very much like to see that demonstrated.

[Kitten Mitten]

Originally Posted by RickJay

I would very much like to see that demonstrated.

As an example, I give you Isiah Thomas. Very high athletic prowess and dismal results as a coach in both the NBA & NCAA.

[bump]

Originally Posted by RealityChuck

There are NFL coaches who never played pro football; Weeb Eubank and Bill Parcells even won Super Bowls without any pro experience. Both did play a bit in college, though.

Bill Belichick didn't even play college football from what I can tell. Bum Phillips, Mike Shanahan, Buddy Ryan, Rex Ryan and Wade Phillips didn't play pro football either.

[RealityChuck]

Originally Posted by Cheesesteak

Can you really correct someone's fundamentals if you've never played?

Of course you can. You can also train a horse to win the Kentucky Derby if you're not a horse.

I would very much like to see that demonstrated.

Sparky Anderson, Walt Alston, Tom Lasorda, Joe McCarthy, Casey Stengel, and Dick Williams were extremely successful managers who were mediocre players. Ty Cobb, Christy Mathewson, Moredecai Brown, Mel Ott, and Bill Terry were mediocre at managing. The skills required to manage have nothing to do with the skills needed to play baseball at a high level. Some people can do it, but there's no reason why a top player has them, and many reasons why they don't need to develop them.

It works the same for other sports.

[ElvisL1ves]

Originally Posted by bump

Bill Belichick didn't even play college football from what I can tell.

Center for Wesleyan College, Middletown, CT. He was much better at lacrosse, though.