2012 NFL Offseason - OTAs and Training Camp

[Omniscient]

The NFL Draft is over, the first 2 or 3 rounds of Free Agency are over, Undrafted Rookies have been signed, a few big trades have been consummated, NFL owners meetings are concluded, OTAs are just around the corner, yup it's time for a new Offseason thread.

If you have an opinion on the state of your team that you'd like to share, this is the place. If you want to ask questions about some of the big FA signing or draft day pickups, we are looking forward to spouting off our thoughts.

Here's the links to the recent 2012 NFL Draft thread and the 2012 NFL Pre-Draft thread. For you gluttons that might have missed it, here's the SDMB Mock Draft thread too.

I don't suppose there's much more intro necessary, everyone knows the drill. The big news of the day is Terrell Suggs blowing out his Achillies tendon either playing basketball or training for his OTA conditioning test. He's talking tough about being back in 4 months for the start of the NFL season but pretty much everyone with any sense is saying his season is over before it started. Big news for the Ravens, he's probably their best player though I personally flavor Ngata and think Suggs is more bark than bite. For a defense getting really, really old this could be a major issue. It will be curious to see if this opens the door for Sergio Kindle to finally get back into the mix after that fractured skull injury.

Oh yeah, and Tebow.

[SenorBeef]

All ginger AFC Championship game.

Calling it now.

[furt]

Originally Posted by Omniscient

Oh yeah, and Tebow.

Who?

[Oakminster]

Things are not looking good for my Saints. Besides the Bounty-gate issues, they have a contract dispute with Brees. He's not happy about the franchise tag, has not signed his tender, and is not participating in team activities. To a certain extent, I can't blame him. He deserves to get paid. I'm afraid the team is going to take a step backwards this year, and may miss the playoffs.

[garygnu]

Bucs win the NFC South.

I think Andy Dalton should dye black stripes in his hair.

[Hamlet]

This is the worst time of year for us football fans. The draft is done, the free agents left are middle of the road at best, and OTA's don't really tell you anything. Now comes the painful, tedious, and incredibly boring 3 1/2 months of next to nothing really happening.

Luckily, I have a wife and kids who love me, a golf game to work on, and a huge trip to Europe to enjoy this summer. The NFL shaped hole in my life will easily be filled. But I still want to find out if Price, Worthy, Miller, and Manning are the answers to an anemic pass rush and whether Morgan Burnett or Charles Woodson can replace the great Nick Collins, and if Aaron Rodgers has a chip on his shoulder after last year's painful loss to the Giants. Unfortunately, those answers, and NFL games, are months away.

[garygnu]

Originally Posted by Hamlet

This is the worst time of year for us football fans. The draft is done, the free agents left are middle of the road at best, and OTA's don't really tell you anything. Now comes the painful, tedious, and incredibly boring 3 1/2 months of next to nothing really happening.
...

And soon the NBA and NHL playoffs will be over, leaving no sports being played at all.

[Omniscient]

Originally Posted by Hamlet

This is the worst time of year for us football fans. The draft is done, the free agents left are middle of the road at best, and OTA's don't really tell you anything. Now comes the painful, tedious, and incredibly boring 3 1/2 months of next to nothing really happening.

Luckily, I have a wife and kids who love me, a golf game to work on, and a huge trip to Europe to enjoy this summer. The NFL shaped hole in my life will easily be filled. But I still want to find out if Price, Worthy, Miller, and Manning are the answers to an anemic pass rush and whether Morgan Burnett or Charles Woodson can replace the great Nick Collins, and if Aaron Rodgers has a chip on his shoulder after last year's painful loss to the Giants. Unfortunately, those answers, and NFL games, are months away.

Where you going?

And, you mean Perry right?

[SenorBeef]

Suggs being out, and Lewis and Reed being a year older, I think this may be the year the Ravens defense takes a noticible step back. Flacco has already peaked. Hopefully they will implode and disband.

[Hamlet]

Originally Posted by Omniscient

Where you going?

My familia y yo vamos a ir a Espana. And Italy, Germany, Austria, France, and Ireland. We're very excited. I'm just upset that they cancelled NFL Europe, so I can't even enjoy bad American football there.

Originally Posted by Omni

And, you mean Perry right?

Ummm, no, I meant Nick Price. Apparently the Packers have hired him in the hopes he can coach up the front 7 and improve their short game. You know how some coaches have players do yoga to improve flexibility or boxing to improve handwork of the players? The Packers are doing that with Nick Price and golf, hoping to improve chipping and focus. Or was it Vincent Price?

Yeah, I meant Perry.

[furt]

Originally Posted by Hamlet

My familia y yo vamos a ir a Espana. And Italy, Germany, Austria, France, and Ireland.

Damn, that sounds sweet. If you see a high school orchestra performing in Austria, that'll be my nephew.

I'll spend my summer moving to Maryland, so there's that.

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

Originally Posted by SenorBeef

All ginger AFC Championship game.

Calling it now.

That would be pretty damn cool, however unlikely.

Originally Posted by garygnu

Bucs win the NFC South.

I think Andy Dalton should dye black stripes in his hair.

I completely agree. That would look badass.

Originally Posted by SenorBeef

Suggs being out, and Lewis and Reed being a year older, I think this may be the year the Ravens defense takes a noticible step back. Flacco has already peaked. Hopefully they will implode and disband.

And maybe if we're lucky they can move to another city!

[Hamlet]

Originally Posted by furt

Damn, that sounds sweet. If you see a high school orchestra performing in Austria, that'll be my nephew.

I'll just go up to random teenagers in Austria and say "Furt says hi!". What could possibly go wrong?

Originally Posted by furt

I'll spend my summer moving to Maryland, so there's that.

Going to become a Ravens fan? I think you need a lobotomy for that.

[Great Antibob]

Originally Posted by garygnu

And soon the NBA and NHL playoffs will be over, leaving no sports being played at all.

Well, there's always baseball, I guess.

I'm just kidding. I'm going to take a 3 month nap until the preseason starts.

[kidchameleon]

Originally Posted by garygnu

And soon the NBA and NHL playoffs will be over, leaving no sports being played at all.

What about Arena Football?

[garygnu]

Originally Posted by kidchameleon

What about Arena Football?

Despite having a very good team right here in town, I just can't get into that.

[Omniscient]

Originally Posted by Hamlet

My familia y yo vamos a ir a Espana. And Italy, Germany, Austria, France, and Ireland. We're very excited. I'm just upset that they cancelled NFL Europe, so I can't even enjoy bad American football there.

Awesome, quite the adventure. I'm gonna be in Ireland golfing the week of Memorial Day. If I cross paths with anyone wearing a cheesehead I'll think twice about swinging on them.

[SenorBeef]

I will take this moment to randomly declare that Andy Dalton is massively overrated. People act as though he were the center of the Bengal's turnaround, but his play was pretty meh all year. What success he did have was just chucking the ball up to AJ Green - who really is that good. If you look at his stats throwing to everyone but AJ Green, they're pretty bad. Even with AJ Green, they rise to mediocre game manager type levels.

Which is a decent enough performance for a rookie, but I keep seeing him praised as being unexpectedly great or leading the Bengal's season, and I just didn't see anything out of him that was very impressive. He may develop, but right now he's massively overrated.

[Hamlet]

Originally Posted by SenorBeef

I will take this moment to randomly declare that Andy Dalton is massively overrated. People act as though he were the center of the Bengal's turnaround, but his play was pretty meh all year. What success he did have was just chucking the ball up to AJ Green - who really is that good. If you look at his stats throwing to everyone but AJ Green, they're pretty bad. Even with AJ Green, they rise to mediocre game manager type levels.

Which is a decent enough performance for a rookie, but I keep seeing him praised as being unexpectedly great or leading the Bengal's season, and I just didn't see anything out of him that was very impressive. He may develop, but right now he's massively overrated.

I don't pay much attention at all to Cincinnati football talk, so I don't know to what extent he is overrated. But I tend to agree with you that he's a complete "meh" quarterback. That's fine for a rookie, but I also didn't see a lot of "Wow" moments that make me think he's got big upside there. He was the 20th rated QB, he threw for only 6.6 ypc, which is 24th. And, most telling to me, he looked awful against elite defenses (Ravens, Steelers, Texans, and 49ers) and threw 3 interceptions against the Texans in the playoffs. I think it's folly to mention him in the same sentence as Cam Newton when he's much more of a Mark Sanchez type QB.

[Ellis Dee]

In fairness, he had to step in and fill Carson Palmer's shoes. Palmer was kind of sucky the last few years but for a while there he was a solid franchise quarterback. That Dalton has the same post-season career as Palmer probably helps to drive any overrating that might be going on.

(Am I remembering right that they both appeared in exactly 1 playoff game? I know Carson went out almost immediately after the game started and was looking good up to then, and Dalton threw 3 picks, but 0-1 = 0-1.)

[Omniscient]

Originally Posted by SenorBeef

I will take this moment to randomly declare that Andy Dalton is massively overrated. People act as though he were the center of the Bengal's turnaround, but his play was pretty meh all year. What success he did have was just chucking the ball up to AJ Green - who really is that good. If you look at his stats throwing to everyone but AJ Green, they're pretty bad. Even with AJ Green, they rise to mediocre game manager type levels.

Which is a decent enough performance for a rookie, but I keep seeing him praised as being unexpectedly great or leading the Bengal's season, and I just didn't see anything out of him that was very impressive. He may develop, but right now he's massively overrated.

I didn't watch enough Bengals games to thoroughly evaluate him, and I'm not sure how raw he is and what his upside could be, but my current opinion on him is that he's very Pennington-esque. Whether he can ever grow beyond that, time will tell.

[VarlosZ]

I don't know, I think you might be besmirching the good name of Chad Pennington, who was a pretty awesome quarterback when healthy. Granted, he sat on the bench his first two years while Dalton was thrown in as a rookie, but OTOH Dalton was 23rd in Comp% last year, a rank that could never be associated with Pennington, rookie or no (he's the all-time leader in the stat). So I'm not sure how similar they can be, unless you just meant in terms of overall quality, in which case it strikes me unlikely but is entirely possible.

[An Arky]

Who's the other "ginger" besides Dalton?

[furt]

Originally Posted by Omniscient

I didn't watch enough Bengals games to thoroughly evaluate him, and I'm not sure how raw he is and what his upside could be, but my current opinion on him is that he's very Pennington-esque.

If he's Chad Pennington minus the injuries, the Bengals are set at QB for the next decade.

He's not an immortal, but Pennington was Very Good. I suspect Dalton will be Very Good. You can win with a Very Good QB. For a bad team, finding a Very Good rookie QB is a big deal.

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

Originally Posted by An Arky

Who's the other "ginger" besides Dalton?

Wheedon, the Browns rookie QB they just drafted.

[furt]

Originally Posted by foiegrasisevil

wheedon, the browns rookie qb they just drafted.

Weeden. Weeden. Weeden.


Whedon.

[Omniscient]

Originally Posted by VarlosZ

I don't know, I think you might be besmirching the good name of Chad Pennington, who was a pretty awesome quarterback when healthy. Granted, he sat on the bench his first two years while Dalton was thrown in as a rookie, but OTOH Dalton was 23rd in Comp% last year, a rank that could never be associated with Pennington, rookie or no (he's the all-time leader in the stat). So I'm not sure how similar they can be, unless you just meant in terms of overall quality, in which case it strikes me unlikely but is entirely possible.

Originally Posted by furt

If he's Chad Pennington minus the injuries, the Bengals are set at QB for the next decade.

He's not an immortal, but Pennington was Very Good. I suspect Dalton will be Very Good. You can win with a Very Good QB. For a bad team, finding a Very Good rookie QB is a big deal.

I knew this was coming and I know the completion numbers, but I think it's misleading. Pennington sucked. He was the consummate game manager and with a HOF RB he never managed to win anything of note, his career record is a mediocre 46-41. If that's "Very Good" you're welcome to have him. Yeah, he was very accurate inside of 10 yards. Yes, he was a good leader, but that's not all that rare.

[VarlosZ]

Originally Posted by Omniscient

I knew this was coming and I know the completion numbers, but I think it's misleading. Pennington sucked. He was the consummate game manager and with a HOF RB he never managed to win anything of note, his career record is a mediocre 46-41. If that's "Very Good" you're welcome to have him. Yeah, he was very accurate inside of 10 yards. Yes, he was a good leader, but that's not all that rare.

Hey now, if you think Comp% is too misleading, Wins can't be your fall-back. It's perennially the most misleading stat for players, across all sports.

Pennington is no exception here: his defense sucked. Their numbers look pretty decent if you go by points allowed, but that's largely because of the offense: they played an effective ball control game, moving the sticks with few incompletions (thus keeping the game short) and very rarely turning the ball over (no short fields). DVOA, accounting for this and measuring the defense on a play-by-play basis, tells the story -- from 2002-2007, Pennington's years as a starter, the Jets defense ranked: 27th, 26th, 14th, 18th, 27th, and 26th. They won as many games as they did (and made the playoffs three times) because the offense ranked: 4th, 7th, 4th, then Pennington is injured and the offense ranks 31st, then 12th, then Pennington sits out half the year and they're 23rd (I checked, they were moderately better with Pennington).

And look at the Dolphins offense. Pennington started one year for them, 2008. Here are the Dolphins offensive DVOA ranks from 2003 to present, with 2008 bolded: 17th, 31st, 18th, 26th, 21st, 7th, 16th, 18th, 20th. (And in that one year, the Dolphins defense was 15th, but the offense was good enough to get them to 11-5).

Curtis Martin was a very, very good RB, but the Jets running game overall, from 2002-07, was entirely ordinary. DVOA ranks were: 21st, 11th, 2nd, 18th, 18th, and 28th (avg: 16.3). Keep in mind that 2004 was Martin's last good year. In '05 he had a 3.3 YPC. In '06 he was gone and the Jets had no real RB; Leon Washington led the team in rushing with a 151-for-650, and the only two other guys to get meaningful carries combined for 244-for-744 (3.0 YPC!). In '07 Thomas Jones carried the ball 310 times at 3.6 YPC clip (with 1 TD).


Chad Pennington would be the prototypical game manager QB if "game manager" weren't an insult. Instead, we can just say that he was extremely efficient, and NFL teams can win a lot of games with an extremely efficient, non-flashy passing offense, so long as the rest of the team holds up it's end of the bargain.

[furt]

Originally Posted by Omniscient

I knew this was coming and I know the completion numbers, but I think it's misleading. Pennington sucked. He was the consummate game manager and with a HOF RB he never managed to win anything of note, his career record is a mediocre 46-41. If that's "Very Good" you're welcome to have him. Yeah, he was very accurate inside of 10 yards. Yes, he was a good leader, but that's not all that rare.

1) Pennington's career yards per attempt was 7.2; well above league average during his career, and higher than Elway, Favre, Aikman, Eli Manning, and McNabb. So, the "only threw short passes" argument seems mythical.

2) His teams were 44-37 with him at QB during the regular season ... and 24-39 with all other people. His teams also scored more points with him than without him. It seems fair to say he spent his career making mediocre-to-bad teams good enough to make the playoffs, though he was not able to take them farther. That sounds like Very Good to me.

Other than the injuries, by what objective criteria did he suck?

[PSXer]

With the Saints in disarray it's time for Cam Newton to step up and win the division


the rest of the team can help too I guess

[Ellis Dee]

Originally Posted by furt

1) Pennington's career yards per attempt was 7.2; well above league average during his career, and higher than Elway, Favre, Aikman, Eli Manning, and McNabb. So, the "only threw short passes" argument seems mythical.

It is most certainly not mythical. The reason Pennington's YPA is so high is because A) he had an ungodly (best ever!) completion percentage, and B) the entire offense was designed around YAC.

To compare Pennington with someone like Eli in the context of Pennington being a vertical passer is a joke. Take it from someone who watched pretty much every snap of both of their careers. (I missed a handful of Pennington Jets games plus his season in Miami.)

EDIT: Also, Eli's YPA numbers were greatly hamstrung by his early-season completion % issues, which still (and likely always will) weigh down his rate numbers. The last three seasons, Eli's YPA were 7.9, 7.4, 8.4, well above Pennington.

[furt]

Originally Posted by Ellis Dee

It is most certainly not mythical. The reason Pennington's YPA is so high is because A) he had an ungodly (best ever!) completion percentage, and B) the entire offense was designed around YAC.

To compare Pennington with someone like Eli in the context of Pennington being a vertical passer is a joke. Take it from someone who watched pretty much every snap of both of their careers. (I missed a handful of Pennington Jets games plus his season in Miami.)

EDIT: Also, Eli's YPA numbers were greatly hamstrung by his early-season completion % issues, which still (and likely always will) weigh down his rate numbers. The last three seasons, Eli's YPA were 7.9, 7.4, 8.4, well above Pennington.

Nobody's saying Pennington was a downfield bomber, or that his career averages are going to be better than a possible hall-of-famer's best years. In point of fact, though, over his career, Pennington's YPA was 8% than the league average. (see Y/A+ here) Eli has done better than that only twice in eight seasons, and only then when he had Nicks, Manningham and (in 2011) Cruz; Pennington spent his career throwing to people like Lavernaeus Coles and Jerricho Cotchery. In Miami, he went 11-5 throwing to Ted Ginn, Greg Camarillo, and Davone Bess.

Yes, he struggled to throw the deep out or drill the skinny post into a tight window that makes scouts get moist. But the claim in question was that Pennington "sucked," and that he was only accurate within ten yards. Sorry, but I see no sign of that, either in the stats or on film. It was a comparative weakness and a significant limitation; that's not the same thing as complete inability, and it wasn't enough to stop him from being well above average: i.e. Very Good.

[Ellis Dee]

Originally Posted by furt

Yes, he struggled to throw the deep out or drill the skinny post into a tight window that makes scouts get moist. But the claim in question was that Pennington "sucked," and that he was only accurate within ten yards. Sorry, but I see no sign of that, either in the stats or on film. It was a comparative weakness and a significant limitation; that's not the same thing as complete inability, and it wasn't enough to stop him from being well above average: i.e. Very Good.

I don't know what film you're talking about. In watching his entire career, he did struggle on throws beyond 10 yards. He was ridiculously accurate on shorter throws, though, which pumps up his YPA.

I never argued that he sucked; I would rate him Very Good at a bare minimum, probably better than that. I scoff at your comparison to Eli, though, as if the two were even in the same universe in terms of downfield passing.

I had to chuckle at you touting Eli's receivers while downplaying The Chad's, btw. I don't see much in Manningham's future, and Eli made Steve Smith look like a superstar. How'd he look with your Eagles?

[furt]

Originally Posted by Ellis Dee

I never argued that he sucked; I would rate him Very Good at a bare minimum,

Then WTF is your point?

I wasn't making an explicit comparison between Manning and Pennington. I was pointing out that Pennington's YPA is comparable to lots of guys with big, strong sexy arms, and Manning was jus one on the list.

You can say he "struggled" all you want, but he had enough to get the job done. D Coordinators knew he didn't have a strong arm, defended accordingly, and he still made them pay: and yes that included the occasional accurately-placed deep throw.

They don't give you extra points for being sexy while you do it.

[Omniscient]

I don't care what the stats say, I watched him a lot with my own eyes and I'm sticking with "he sucked." He didn't suck like JaMarcus Russell sucked, but he sucked in his own special way. No team ever circled a Pennington game on their calendar and every team that had him was looking for ways to replace him the minute they saw him use every shred of strength in his body to get the ball to the hash marks.

[garygnu]

Dalton wasn't great, but "sucked" is doing him a disservice considering the circumstances (a rookie QB on the Bengals).

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

Originally Posted by furt

Weeden. Weeden. Weeden.


Whedon.

Ah, the Browns team motto then: "We done".

[furt]

Originally Posted by Omniscient

I don't care what the stats say, I watched him a lot with my own eyes and I'm sticking with "he sucked." He didn't suck like JaMarcus Russell sucked, but he sucked in his own special way. No team ever circled a Pennington game on their calendar and every team that had him was looking for ways to replace him the minute they saw him use every shred of strength in his body to get the ball to the hash marks.

IOW, "Yeah he won games, moved the ball, had excellent stats, earned the respect of his peers, convinced multiple coaches that he was worth building around ... but he sucked because I say he did."

I cannot argue with that logic.

[Omniscient]

Originally Posted by furt

IOW, "Yeah he won games, moved the ball, had excellent stats, earned the respect of his peers, convinced multiple coaches that he was worth building around ... but he sucked because I say he did."

I cannot argue with that logic.

I'm gonna say that the only one of those statements that I'd agree with is that he had excellent stats, and "excellent" is pushing it a tad. As for winning games, he wasn't anything to write home about and I don't think he got much respect from peers or coaches. You seem to have a wildly inflated opinion of the cult of the Chaz.

[Ellis Dee]

Originally Posted by furt

Then WTF is your point?

My fucking point is that your fucking claim that...

Originally Posted by furt

So, the "only threw short passes" argument seems mythical.

...is fucking idiotic. Even more fucking stupid is that you then pointed to Eli as evidence.

That is WTF my point is.

[furt]

Originally Posted by Omniscient

I'm gonna say that the only one of those statements that I'd agree with is that he had excellent stats, and "excellent" is pushing it a tad. As for winning games, he wasn't anything to write home about and I don't think he got much respect from peers or coaches. You seem to have a wildly inflated opinion of the cult of the Chaz.

He moved his teams from 6-10 to 9-7. Three different head coaches picked him as starter, and another one drafted him in the first round. You yourself said he was a respected leader. In one of his two healthy seasons, he finished second in MVP voting.

Those are all objective facts that seem to indicate that the guy did not suck. The only objective fact you've provided to support the idea that he was below-avaerage is that his winning percentage was above average. And I'm the one who is part of faith-based cult? (And no, "I watched the games and I know in my heart" is not a fact-based argument.)

I ain't saying he was an immortal; I'm saying he didn't suck, and a longsuffering fanbase would be happy enough to have a healthier version him for a decade. For Cincinnati, the prospect of averaging 9-7 over next decade probably sounds pretty appealing.

[furt]

Originally Posted by Ellis Dee

My fucking point is that your fucking claim that......is fucking idiotic. Even more fucking stupid is that you then pointed to Eli as evidence.

That is WTF my point is.

So you're saying that in fact Pennington did indeed only throw short passes? Cause I'm pretty sure I can go find some clips of him hitting deep receivers on occasion.

I cited a fact, in the context of a larger discussion. If want to argue that that fact is inaccurate or meaningless, that would be productive. If you have some other evidence that suggests that in fact Pennington was wholly incompetent at anything beyond ten yard passes, that would be productive. Rushing in to argue over something that was not said is not especially productive.

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

Bill Romanowski: "Did not!"

Chris Carter: "Did too!"

[Hamlet]

Originally Posted by FoieGrasIsEvil

Bill Romanowski: "Did not!"

I wouldn't believe Romanowski if he told me water was wet. I despise him.

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

Originally Posted by Hamlet

I wouldn't believe Romanowski if he told me water was wet. I despise him.

Me either. Apparently there's been a big stink on ESPN radio due to Chris Carter telling one of the shows that he put out a bounty on Romanowski as protection because Mr Spitter yelled to him at the beginning of a game that he was going to "end his career".

Bill denied this of course. His spotless reputation makes me inclined to believe him!

[President Johnny Gentle]

In related news, Los Angeles loses a relocation candidate. I'm thrilled that the Vikings will be staying.

[mkecane]

Originally Posted by President Johnny Gentle

In related news, Los Angeles loses a relocation candidate. I'm thrilled that the Vikings will be staying.

I was going to post this. I'm happy they'll be the Minnesota Vikings rather than LA, and I guess I'm glad that the public is "only" on the hook for half the cost. But man, New Vikings Stadium, Target Field, TCF Field, Target Center (seems likely to get renovations), and Exel Energy Center, plus renovations at Williams Arena and Mariucci Arena...that's a hell of a lot of money spent on sports.

Things I like about it: it's downtown - I didn't think Blaine would work at all because that's a long way from the people in Edina, Eden Prairie, etc, where I'm guessing a lot of ticket holders live...Arden Hills is closer, but it's that in need of Superfund work?...yes, it will be a dome, but at least that keeps MN a player for the Final Four, Superbowl, and such; and finally, it is apparently going to be soccer-friendly, so MN can get an MLS team and possibly host World Cup matches should the US get the WC again. Still, it's a lot of money, and I'm sure some people will be voted out because of this.

[Omniscient]

Originally Posted by mkecane

I was going to post this. I'm happy they'll be the Minnesota Vikings rather than LA, and I guess I'm glad that the public is "only" on the hook for half the cost. But man, New Vikings Stadium, Target Field, TCF Field, Target Center (seems likely to get renovations), and Exel Energy Center, plus renovations at Williams Arena and Mariucci Arena...that's a hell of a lot of money spent on sports.

Things I like about it: it's downtown - I didn't think Blaine would work at all because that's a long way from the people in Edina, Eden Prairie, etc, where I'm guessing a lot of ticket holders live...Arden Hills is closer, but it's that in need of Superfund work?...yes, it will be a dome, but at least that keeps MN a player for the Final Four, Superbowl, and such; and finally, it is apparently going to be soccer-friendly, so MN can get an MLS team and possibly host World Cup matches should the US get the WC again. Still, it's a lot of money, and I'm sure some people will be voted out because of this.

I don't have much sympathy for Minnesotans. The stadium situation they've created for themselves is utterly idiotic. Why do they have separate arenas for the Wild and T'Wolves? They have the luxury of having a Big Ten school in the same place as their major sports city, something very few FBS schools can claim, and yet they have complete redundancy of facilities. 2 football stadiums, 2 basketball arenas, 2 hockey arenas, 2 baseball fields. WTF?

When they got the Wild why did they build a new arena? When they built the Target Center why did they not make it functional for Hockey? They did have the Frozen 4 and were almost certainly hoping to get a Hockey team back.

I suppose I understand St. Paul and the University wanting to have their own facilities, especially for college basketball and hockey, but they should have compromised somewhere.

They knew the Superdome needed to be rebuilt when all of these stadiums were agreed to, and they knew that keeping the NFL was far more important than getting the NBA and NHL back. They should have pulled the trigger when the built TCF Field and gotten this done, or they should have said no to the Wild and retrofitted the Target Center for Hockey.

[President Johnny Gentle]

Originally Posted by Omniscient

When they got the Wild why did they build a new arena? When they built the Target Center why did they not make it functional for Hockey? They did have the Frozen 4 and were almost certainly hoping to get a Hockey team back.

The Frozen Four was never held at the Target Center. It was held at the old St. Paul Civic Center, which was replaced by the Xcel.

The reason that the Target Center wasn't built for hockey is that it wasn't built with public funds. The original Timberwolves owners built it themselves, then ended up selling it to the city (after the 1994 mess that nearly sent the Wolves to New Orleans).

The Twin Cities have had at least two major indoor arenas dating back to the 1960s. Target Center opened in 1990 as the third non-campus arena. The North Stars were still in town at that point playing at the Met Center, so there was no thought to building a new hockey arena.

The X opened in 2000 after the NHL refused to allow a franchise to go to either the Target Center or to the Civic Center. The area was going to have two arenas regardless because of civic rivalry, so St. Paul tore down the Civic Center and built the Xcel.

They knew the Superdome needed to be rebuilt when all of these stadiums were agreed to, and they knew that keeping the NFL was far more important than getting the NBA and NHL back. They should have pulled the trigger when the built TCF Field and gotten this done, or they should have said no to the Wild and retrofitted the Target Center for Hockey.

When TCF was built, it was originally proposed as a joint Vikings/Gophers venture. It was shortsightedness on the part of the state legislature that prevented it. Essentially, the Vikings lease kept them from even threatening to move, so they were pushed to the back of the line. There was also no love lost for Red McCombs. Zygi Wilf has his detractors, but he's far more loved as an owner than McCombs ever was.

And the Twin Cities weren't going to let a chance for the NHL to return to slip away either. The Vikings are the most popular team in town, but Minnesota is a hockey state.

[furt]

Originally Posted by President Johnny Gentle

When TCF was built, it was originally proposed as a joint Vikings/Gophers venture. It was shortsightedness on the part of the state legislature that prevented it. Essentially, the Vikings lease kept them from even threatening to move, so they were pushed to the back of the line. There was also no love lost for Red McCombs. Zygi Wilf has his detractors, but he's far more loved as an owner than McCombs ever was.

I think the elected representatives putting so much stock in personal grudges and not looking long-term falls under the heading "don't have much sympathy for Minnesotans": two taxpayer-funded football stadiums a few miles apart is clusterfuck that should lead to politicians getting fired.

In fairness, though ... this is becoming pretty much the norm. I pray for the day Congress takes away pro sports' monopoly protection.