Jeez, can't we just save ourselves some trouble and just Ban Hitler apologists/deniers?

[Boyo Jim]

People like GermanicPride pop up like weeds on an otherwise nice lawn. He's started two threads, one denying that Hitler could have had Jewish roots, and another about how Austrians are Germans or Germans are Austrians and how they all love each other and...

I debated on whether to put this here or in the Pit, but I settled on here because maybe discussing whether obstinate denial of reality should be a bannable offense.

IMO, when someone starts along the "Hitler was a misunderstood great man" trail, it's tome to bring the hammer down. I understand we are fighting ignorance, but Holocaust denial and Hitler adoration aren't ignorant, they are malignant.

I'm not asking for a lot. I think two "instant bans" are adequate -- deny gravity, or the Holocaust, and you're out.

Maybe I'm just getting tired of the struggle against these... people. They make me despair for the future of humanity.

[Siam Sam]

+1

[The Man With The Golden Gun]

Oh, come on, how much harm does it do us to allow posters who think gravity's a lie? After all, gravity's just a theory and new research and evidence is always being uncovered in support of gravitational revisionism.


I'm with you on the Holocaust thing, though. Fuck that noise.

[Der Trihs]

Originally Posted by The Man With The Golden Gun

Oh, come on, how much harm does it do us to allow posters who think gravity's a lie? After all, gravity's just a theory and new research and evidence is always being uncovered in support of gravitational revisionism.

After all, no one can prove that Intelligent Falling is false; so it's just as good as that silly nonsense from Newton and Einstein!

[Little Nemo]

I don't know. I think it serves a useful purpose. Nazi apologists pop their heads out of the ground and they get smacked down. It reminds them that nobody's buying the line of bullshit.

Ban them and they'll just feel the board is owned by Jews who are keeping their message from all the people who'd otherwise agree with them.

[splatterpunk]

Originally Posted by Little Nemo

I don't know. I think it serves a useful purpose. Nazi apologists pop their heads out of the ground and they get smacked down. It reminds them that nobody's buying the line of bullshit.

Ban them and they'll just feel the board is owned by Jews who are keeping their message from all the people who'd otherwise agree with them.

Agreed. Ban these assholes by fiat and you're no better than Stormfront and those other shitbag boards. The banner at the top of this forum says "Fighting Ignorance..." Not "Wishing Ignorance Would Just Leave Me The Fuck Alone."

Fighting is hard, but usually worth it.

Why make martyrs of these assholes?

[Boyo Jim]

Originally Posted by splatterpunk

...Ban these assholes by fiat and you're no better than Stormfront and those other shitbag boards...

Wow, rarely do I read such bullshit from someone who isn't a Holocaust denier. Every single person ever banned from every message board is banned by fiat. The rationales for banning may differ, and both you and I might agree that the SDMB has morally superior rules regarding banning, but in essence the board management decrees "we don't need this kind of crap around here." And on a privately owned message board, they have an absolute right to do so.

[Boyo Jim]

Originally Posted by Little Nemo

...
Ban them and they'll just feel the board is owned by Jews who are keeping their message from all the people who'd otherwise agree with them.

When they ultimately get banned for breaking too many of the rules (and they always do, it seems), they'll believe this anyway. I'm just trying to save us time.

[Mr. Excellent]

Originally Posted by Boyo Jim

When they ultimately get banned for breaking too many of the rules (and they always do, it seems), they'll believe this anyway. I'm just trying to save us time.

I agree, to a point - this kind of crazy isn't really something you can reason folks out of. But I do think it's at least somewhat useful to have the occasional reminder that these nuts exist. I would prefer not to ban them until they violate other Board rules.

[splatterpunk]

Originally Posted by Boyo Jim

Wow, rarely do I read such bullshit from someone who isn't a Holocaust denier. Every single person ever banned from every message board is banned by fiat. The rationales for banning may differ, and both you and I might agree that the SDMB has morally superior rules regarding banning, but in essence the board management decrees "we don't need this kind of crap around here." And on a privately owned message board, they have an absolute right to do so.

No, I'm not a Holocaust denier, but you already knew that.

The point I was trying to make is that boards like the one I mentioned will ban a poster for the simple act of disagreeing with that board's "common wisdom," which is kind of what you're advocating here.

And, yes, I realize that this board's administration can ban anyone they please for any reason they deem fit. So? So can Stormfront. And they do just that. And that's how you want this board to be run? Someone posted some shit that you personally find distasteful and you want to run to Mommy and have her kick them out of the sandbox for you.

Is that about it?

[Little Nemo]

Originally Posted by Boyo Jim

When they ultimately get banned for breaking too many of the rules (and they always do, it seems), they'll believe this anyway. I'm just trying to save us time.

No, there's a difference. If they're simply forbidden to make any posts, they can tell themselves "Most people believe in what I'm saying. That's why the handful of my enemies are suppressing my message. They're afraid that if I get the word out, the masses would follow me."

So let them post away. Let them see that the masses can read their message and our response is ridicule. Sure, they'll still think they're right but they won't be able to kid themselves that other people are out there waiting to follow them. Let them see how alone they are.

[Bryan Ekers]

Originally Posted by Little Nemo

No, there's a difference. If they're simply forbidden to make any posts, they can tell themselves "Most people believe in what I'm saying. That's why the handful of my enemies are suppressing my message. They're afraid that if I get the word out, the masses would follow me."

So let them post away. Let them see that the masses can read their message and our response is ridicule. Sure, they'll still think they're right but they won't be able to kid themselves that other people are out there waiting to follow them. Let them see how alone they are.

It's not going to make a whit of difference. Being banned isn't going to educate them, but being allowed to post freely isn't going to educate them, either. Their entire premise is one of victimhood and persecution, and in their book a ban today means "they fear and oppress me" and a ban not today means "they fear and will oppress me inevitably".

[Little Nemo]

Originally Posted by Bryan Ekers

Their entire premise is one of victimhood and persecution, and in their book a ban today means "they fear and oppress me" and a ban not today means "they fear and will oppress me inevitably".

It's hard to maintain the self-illusion that people fear you when they're all pointing at you and laughing.

[BigT]

Originally Posted by Little Nemo

It's hard to maintain the self-illusion that people fear you when they're all pointing at you and laughing.

No, it really isn't. It's really easy to convince yourself that the people laughing are just doing so because they can't actually refute what you say. In fact, I personally think it's often true.

And if the morals here are better, then, by definition, we would be better than Stormfront. Not that I advocate banning necessarily--they usually reveal their troll status soon enough, which gives us an even greater moral highground. Even Nazi sympathizers hate trolls.

[Bryan Ekers]

Originally Posted by Little Nemo

It's hard to maintain the self-illusion that people fear you when they're all pointing at you and laughing.

I think self-illusions are far more resilient than you give them credit for.

[Czarcasm]

On the one hand I am against denying someone a place to speak, but on the other hand can't see giving an extra place to speak to those who have free range to speak without opposition on so many forums online. We know that hate attracts hate, so giving such hate an extra billboard to advertise on can only add to it. These Hitler Youth wannabes already have forums where we are denied a voice. They have their slice of the Freedom Of Speech pie that they will never share, so to speak-what good does it do to offer them a part of our slice? This forum is supposed to be dedicated(in part, at least) to fighting ignorance, but in all the years we have given these Hitler Youth a chance to speak have we ever enlightened any of them? All that ever happens is that they get their message out to a wider group as our responses roll off their backs like water off a duck.

[Revtim]

Originally Posted by Little Nemo

I don't know. I think it serves a useful purpose. Nazi apologists pop their heads out of the ground and they get smacked down. It reminds them that nobody's buying the line of bullshit.

Ban them and they'll just feel the board is owned by Jews who are keeping their message from all the people who'd otherwise agree with them.

Exactly. As they say, sunlight is the best disinfectant.

And here's a novel idea - if somebody doesn't wish to read or participate in the smackdown, don't open the goddamn thread. It's easy! Some might even say it's easier that actually opening the thread!

[Czarcasm]

Originally Posted by Revtim

Exactly. As they say, sunlight is the best disinfectant.

It is better to prevent infestation then to try to treat it after the fact-no damage is better than little damage. They never change their minds, nobody already on this board ever says "I was unsure about these Nazis until you guys showed me the facts-Thanks!", and somebody always names the websites where they proliferate giving them free advertising. Someone once said, "We can learn from the wildest of animals, and with enough time and care we can even learn to live with them. The exception is the rabid animal-have pity on it, but isolate it and let it die alone, lest it infects others."

[TubaDiva]

Actually, he's banned for cause now.

[Peter Morris]

Not sorry to see him go, but what specific rule did he breaK?

[John Mace]

Are you proposing that we create a new rule? If so, how would you word it? Saying nice things about Hitler is a bannable offense?

As it is, these guys always break so many existing rules that they get banned quickly. I don't really see a problem. Ideally, posters such as GermanicPride would generate no replies, and their threads would sink on their own. But that'll never happen here.

[MJinks]

Occasionally there is something to be learned from these threads though. His point about the number of murdered at Auschwitz and the rebuttals by other posters certainly taught me something. If I'd met a holocaust denier in person I wouldn't have known how to refute that point, now I do. Other people might have heard that claim and not known the truth behind it. Deniers or conspiracy theorists occasionally quote 'facts' that sound reasonable or make sense and you can always rely on SDMB posters to strain out the truth while leaving the bullshit behind. It wont make the OP change their mind but it might educate those on the sidelines.

Plus, and I hope you don't judge me too harshly for this, I often find their viewpoints and the inevitable shitstorm and meltdown highly amusing.

[Boyo Jim]

Originally Posted by TubaDiva

Actually, he's banned for cause now.

This more or less makes my point, though some last a bit longer.

[Bryan Ekers]

Originally Posted by Peter Morris

Not sorry to see him go, but what specific rule did he breaK?

Well, I daresay him calling people who disagreed with his views on Hitler "Zionist scumbags" may have been a tad excessive.

[John Mace]

Originally Posted by Bryan Ekers

Well, I daresay him calling people who disagreed with his views on Hitler "Zionist scumbags" may have been a tad excessive.

Yeah. Not everyone who disagreed with him were Zionists.

[Qadgop the Mercotan]

Originally Posted by Czarcasm

our responses roll off their backs like water off a duck.

White supremacists make up a significant portion of my patient population. Fortunately they roll off my back like a duck.

[Czarcasm]

They pretty much always get banned. They way we do it now is that they first get a chance to get their message out to a wider audience and their pet website gets a few mentions, then they get banned.

[Larry Borgia]

If we're going to insta-ban anybody I vote it be pedos rather than Nazis. For whatever reason I find pedos much more distasteful.

[XT]

I agree with Little Nemo and disagree with the OP. The best way to to banish the darkness is with the light. Bright, blinding light...plus a healthy measure of scorn, ridicule and a good old fashion 'doper pile on. Insta-banning someone for being a Nazi asshole is, IMHO, a slippery slope...once you do that, why not insta-ban Truthers, or other CT nutters (that's what a Hitler apologist or Holocaust denier is after all)?

It's better to take these guys down by the normal 'doper posting community, and when they fuck up and break the actual rules THEN have the Mods step in with warnings and, if they keep fucking up, ban their ass. Sure, it's more work, and different 'dopers burn out on a subject at different times, but there is ALWAYS someone in the community ready and willing to step up to lay some smack down on some clown pushing some ridiculous CT or silly theory.

-XT

[John Mace]

Originally Posted by Czarcasm

They pretty much always get banned. They way we do it now is that they first get a chance to get their message out to a wider audience and their pet website gets a few mentions, then they get banned.

Write the rule that we'd use, then. Did GermanicPride post about Stormfront? AFAIK, it was other posters who did.

[Marley23]

He's now been banned for gems including:

Originally Posted by GermanicPride

Grow up.

Originally Posted by GermanicPride

Key word is "probably" - you moron.

Yes you're a Mischling, why do I have to have balls to say that... you mutt.

No it means you're a retard.

We try not to ban people for having the wrong ideas, but yes, it was obvious this was going to happen as soon as somebody called GermanicPride signed up. We try to give people latitude to express some repugnant ideas civilly; not surprisingly, this one failed to do so. So he's banned.

[Gyrate]

Originally Posted by MJinks

Occasionally there is something to be learned from these threads though. His point about the number of murdered at Auschwitz and the rebuttals by other posters certainly taught me something. If I'd met a holocaust denier in person I wouldn't have known how to refute that point, now I do. Other people might have heard that claim and not known the truth behind it. Deniers or conspiracy theorists occasionally quote 'facts' that sound reasonable or make sense and you can always rely on SDMB posters to strain out the truth while leaving the bullshit behind. It wont make the OP change their mind but it might educate those on the sidelines.

I'll second this as well, since I learned the same thing I hadn't previously known. No, we're not going to change the minds of the Hitler apologists. But we may help arm those who encounter them in other fora, which is part of the wider fight against ignorance.

[XT]

The threads aren't really for the apologist or CT nutter. In all the years I've been here I've never seen one of these true believers learn a gods damned thing in one of these threads. Generally, they post for a while, and are overwhelmed by the smackdown being put on the top of their bony little heads, and eventually slink off back to whatever rock they crawled out from. No, the purpose of these threads is for the lurkers...and, also, for the folks who will be doing a Google or Bing search in the future, will see the thread, will be on the fence or not really know much about it, will open the thread and read through it and see how ridiculous the denier or CT nutter or vaxer or whatever looks and is made to look, and will come out of it knowing a little more about the tactics to use when combating one of these idiots. I think the single biggest thing that has helped damp down the Truthers has been debunking articles and shows on popular cable channels, shown over and over again...and boards like ours, who have consistently allowed these fools in and given them their chance to present their pitiful evidence, and then smacking them down and clearly making them flee with their tails firmly tucked between their legs.

-XT

[Drunky Smurf]

Originally Posted by Boyo Jim

I'm not asking for a lot. I think two "instant bans" are adequate -- deny gravity, or the Holocaust, and you're out.

Cite that the gravitron has been found. If not then gravity does not exist.

[kunilou]

It concerns me that if we ban the Holocaust denier threads because - let's face it -- those people are racist assholes, that the next step will be to ban the birther threads for the same reason. Then it's a short (and "justifiable") step to ban the 9/11 threads, because those people are whackjobs, then all the other CT threads. After that, we can clear away the atheists/theists threads and so on.

I vote for scorn and ridicule.

[Marley23]

I was with you until the last step, kunilou, not that I expect any of those types of thread to be banned.

[samclem]

Originally Posted by kunilou

It concerns me that if we ban the Holocaust denier threads because - let's face it -- those people are racist assholes, that the next step will be to ban the birther threads for the same reason. Then it's a short (and "justifiable") step to ban the 9/11 threads, because those people are whackjobs, then all the other CT threads. After that, we can clear away the atheists/theists threads and so on.

I vote for scorn and ridicule.

And, what if we had banned Jack Dean Tyler on his first day here? Huh? Huh?

[FinnAgain]

Nuke them from orbit.
It's the only way to be sure.

[XT]

Naw...just prick their thumb and toss them into the Straight Dope waters. Just a little blood in the water and assuming the right folks pick up on the thread and you'll have a good old fashion SD feeding frenzy.

-XT

[Gagundathar]

I have had mixed feelings about this for years, but logic and reason seem to dictate that all points of view should be accepted and subjected to the same basic rigor regardless of the perceived inanity of the notion. If we can't combat ignorance with logic and reason, then I suggest we may not be in the right place (or, alternatively, ignorance has won and we should all just pack it in and go home to barricade ourselves in our anti-ignorance shelters.)

I do like the idea that our posts are useful in giving a sane and reasoned reply to all of the anti-science notions that seem to grow like mushrooms after a spring rain. Doing so in a classy manner is just the cherry on top.

[D18]

Originally Posted by kunilou

. . . then all the other CT threads. After that, we can clear away the atheists/theists threads and so on.

What are CT threads?

[XT]

CT=Conspiracy Theory

-XT

[Marley23]

Originally Posted by D18

What are CT threads?

Conspiracy theories. Certainly we've had plenty of dumbass September 11th conspiracy threads and most of the other famous conspiracy theory topics are exhausted, but we've had a few entertaining outre theories like 'Were the Stuart Kings black?' and 'Did the CIA and Eric Burdon murder Jimi Hendrix?'

[Qadgop the Mercotan]

Originally Posted by D18

What are CT threads?

Computerized Tomography threads.




What?

[kunilou]

Originally Posted by Marley23

I was with you until the last step, kunilou, not that I expect any of those types of thread to be banned.

By last step, do you mean "scorn and ridicule," "so on" or "atheist/theist?"

No matter, simply substitute anarcho-capitalism, creationism, universal health care, the bombing of Hiroshima or any other topic which tends to attract extreme, irrational posts regardless of the intent of the OP.

It's all the same slippery slope.

[Marley23]

Originally Posted by kunilou

By last step, do you mean "scorn and ridicule," "so on" or "atheist/theist?"

I meant the "atheist/theist" part. I understand what you're saying - there are many unresolvable topics and that's in large part what GD is for. I don't think it follows that we would start cracking down on those kinds of topic just because we ban some of the topics that attract the lunatics. But that being said, this is all hypothetical. We don't want to declare any topics off-limits.

[Little Nemo]

Originally Posted by Qadgop the Mercotan

Computerized Tomography threads.

Hey, use a tag if you're going to post about x-rayed topics.

[Little Nemo]

Personally, I'll give GermanicPride credit for the fact he was willing to come right out and say what he meant. He said he was a Nazi, he admired Hitler, and didn't like Jews. It was refreshingly honest at least. We get so many racists that want to dance around the subject and not actually say what everyone knows they're thinking. We end up with those threads that are supposedly about illegal immigration or affirmative action or hate crimes or gang activities or intelligence testing or national languages - but are really all about race.

[Pitchmeister]

Originally Posted by Little Nemo

Personally, I'll give GermanicPride credit for the fact he was willing to come right out and say what he meant. He said he was a Nazi, he admired Hitler, and didn't like Jews. It was refreshingly honest at least. We get so many racists that want to dance around the subject and not actually say what everyone knows they're thinking. We end up with those threads that are supposedly about illegal immigration or affirmative action or hate crimes or gang activities or intelligence testing or national languages - but are really all about race.

Yet still he kept insisting he wasn't a Holocaust denier - what was up with that?

[Marley23]

No credit from me. He only came out and said what he thought after everybody realized by inference that that was obviously what he thought.