"Teen Paranormal Romance" now has its own section at Barnes & Noble

[BrainGlutton]

I weep for our culture.

[The Man With The Golden Gun]

Makes me think of a Facebook status I had a few days ago:

One of those stories that is so absurd that it has to really be true:

Elie Wiesel is a well-known author of the book Night, an memoir of his experience surviving the Holocaust. Night is not his only book, though. He also wrote a novel in 1988 about another Holocaust survivor trying to overcome what he went through and become a psychologist in America. Though he had no way of knowing it, his choice for that book's title left a lot to be desired.

I have to wonder what he thinks about the idea that the title he hoped would forever be associated with the worst example of man's inhumanity to man and the hope that such a horror will never be allowed to happen again will instead forever be associated with whiny teenage girls and sparkly vampires.

If you think I'm making this up, don't take my word it. Google it and see for yourself.

[Blackberry]

That's good though, keep them away from the other books. Now if only I could filter them out of the Kindle books top 100 on Amazon, or the ebook collection on my library's website, I could save thousands of hours of inadvertently reading descriptions of vampire books.

[Ferret Herder]

Originally Posted by The Man With The Golden Gun

Makes me think of a Facebook status I had a few days ago:

I googled "Night book" and got links for Wiesel's book and an Italian composition called "Nightbook."

[sitchensis]

Twilight by Elie Weisel

[congodwarf]

Originally Posted by Ferret Herder

I googled "Night book" and got links for Wiesel's book and an Italian composition called "Nightbook."

Twilight

[BrainGlutton]

Originally Posted by Ferret Herder

I googled "Night book" and got links for Wiesel's book and an Italian composition called "Nightbook."

What comes just before night? (Hint: "You are about to enter another dimension . . ." dootdootdootdootdootdootdootdoot . . .)

[BrainGlutton]

Anyway, vampires are passe. It's minotaurs now.

[Blackberry]

Shoot. I was rooting for mummies. They're so sexy.

[Nanoda]

At my local used bookstore it's called "Urban Fantasy", and was taking up a sizeable chunk of real estate. Just showed up this year.

[Rachellelogram]

As long as they're reading.

[Battle Pope]

Originally Posted by Blackberry

That's good though, keep them away from the other books. Now if only I could filter them out of the Kindle books top 100 on Amazon, or the ebook collection on my library's website, I could save thousands of hours of inadvertently reading descriptions of vampire books.

Can we get one that filters out shitty cookie-cutter zombie novels?

[coffeecat]

I think it's funny.

Joanna Russ wrote a story about a woman whose family keeps nagging her to find a man and get married, so she hooks up with a vampire.

"Oh, I feel so feminine and helpless when he takes me."
"But he's a bloodsucking monster from Hell!"
"Well, you said I should date more. Picky, picky, picky . . ."

Satire can't keep up with real life.

[BrainGlutton]

On reflection, this thread would go better in CS. May I trouble the Mods for a move, please?

[Czarcasm]

Originally Posted by BrainGlutton

On reflection, this thread would go better in CS. May I trouble the Mods for a move, please?

Reported request to mods.

[chrisk]

Originally Posted by Czarcasm

Reported request to mods.

Hmm... do we have vampire mods who can move threads without being noticed? It's in CS now.

[Marley23]

Moved to Cafe Society from MPSIMS.

And this is more of an MPSIMS observation than a Cafe Society one, but I'd say many of my teen romances could've been called paranormal. They were more paranormal than romantic, anyway.

[Love Rhombus]

How long till we have a crappy "parody" film of the Twilight movies?

[chrisk]

Originally Posted by Love Rhombus

How long till we have a crappy "parody" film of the Twilight movies?

That was nearly 2 years ago. (Spoofs the first 3 twilight movies, though they might have been working more from book #3 and rumors.)

[chorpler]

And it was actually not too bad.

[BrainGlutton]

Originally Posted by Marley23

Moved to Cafe Society from MPSIMS.

And this is more of an MPSIMS observation than a Cafe Society one, but I'd say many of my teen romances could've been called paranormal. They were more paranormal than romantic, anyway.

As in, their existence cannot be proven? [rimshot]

[BrainGlutton]

When I was in library school I did a term paper comparing the Dewey Decimal and Library of Congress systems to the (market-driven) way B&N (and Borders, still in business then) sort their books into categories. It's a fascinating subject.

But, going back further -- damn, in the early '90s, I was deeply disturbed when "Addiction and Recovery" acquired its own section in B&N, crying in existential despair, "Is this what the '90s are going to be like?!" And, so it was. . . .

[Dendarii Dame]

Originally Posted by Blackberry

Shoot. I was rooting for mummies. They're so sexy.

And Chief Wiggums suspects 'em. (In Treehouse of Horror IV, instead of Dracula.)


I saw editions of Romeo and Juliet, Wuthering Heights, and IIRC, Jane Eyre in the Young Adult section of Borders (back when there was a Borders) all with covers designed to make them look like sequels to Twilight.

[Sam Lowry]

Originally Posted by BrainGlutton

I weep for our culture.

I say this as an adult woman who has never read any of the Twilight books, but why is this so terrible that there's a "Teen Paranormal Romance" section? Is it really so much worse that teenagers are reading about girls falling in love with handsome vampires as compared to 10 years ago when they might have been reading about girls falling in love with handsome football players?

[Covered_In_Bees!]

My local Barnes & Noble has had that section for quite some time. I weep every time I see it. The employees have taken to asking me to at least go to the bathroom instead of standing near the section.

[Jragon]

My friend made the point that if all the books are in that section, at least we can destroy them easier with less collateral damage to the other stuff.

Originally Posted by Sam Lowry

I say this as an adult woman who has never read any of the Twilight books, but why is this so terrible that there's a "Teen Paranormal Romance" section? Is it really so much worse that teenagers are reading about girls falling in love with handsome vampires as compared to 10 years ago when they might have been reading about girls falling in love with handsome football players?

Fair point. I don't think there's anything wrong with the genre, but Twilight (which they're all mostly following) hasn't done any favors to the perception of the genre. I read Twilight and it's... it's not pretty. I think there's a decent story in there if Stephanie Meyer had a much better editor (and a thesaurus), but as it stands it's worse than your typical Mary Sue "lead girl is perfect and makes out with every hot guy" fanfic. If nothing else, the relationship presented is an idealized abusive relationship (of the flavor "he only took the spark plugs out of my truck so I couldn't see another guy because he LOVES ME SO MUCH"), and the sheer manipulation that goes on is terrible.

That's ignoring the facts that the main character is insufferable, and such, that kind of stuff I'd expect out of a tweeny-romance and I wouldn't hate it nearly as much if it was JUST a Harlequin Romance with Vampires and paper thin characterization. The book just has certain bits of plot and characterization that are held up as SO ROMANTIC by so many young people (and even a few middle aged women I've talked to), and at the same time very sexist and damaging if you don't accept that the plot is just a silly nonsense wish-fulfillment excuse plot (which a lot of young men and women I've heard talking about it don't accept).

I'm sure some Paranormal Romance is just Harlequin Romance with Vampires, or whatever. Which is mindless, and probably poorly written pulp, but then I don't pretend that my Conan The Barbarian short story collection is high art, so that's fine. It's just my fear that they follow directly in the tradition of Twilight which was bad enough to be what I consider damaging, as in, above the level of merely bad.

[Skara_Brae]

I was big into paranormal romance when I was a teenage girl, and that was well before Twilight. I was way into LJ Smith's stuff, who now has 2 TV shows (Vampire Diaries and Secret Circle) based on her books. So its always been now, but now may be getting more prevelent.

Perhaps more authors are writing paranormal romances now that Stephanie Meyer has shown you can make a gazillion dollars without any stunning talent...

[Rachellelogram]

Originally Posted by Jragon

Fair point. I don't think there's anything wrong with the genre, but Twilight (which they're all mostly following) hasn't done any favors to the perception of the genre. I read Twilight and it's... it's not pretty. I think there's a decent story in there if Stephanie Meyer had a much better editor (and a thesaurus), but as it stands it's worse than your typical Mary Sue "lead girl is perfect and makes out with every hot guy" fanfic. If nothing else, the relationship presented is an idealized abusive relationship (of the flavor "he only took the spark plugs out of my truck so I couldn't see another guy because he LOVES ME SO MUCH"), and the sheer manipulation that goes on is terrible.

That's ignoring the facts that the main character is insufferable, and such, that kind of stuff I'd expect out of a tweeny-romance and I wouldn't hate it nearly as much if it was JUST a Harlequin Romance with Vampires and paper thin characterization. The book just has certain bits of plot and characterization that are held up as SO ROMANTIC by so many young people (and even a few middle aged women I've talked to), and at the same time very sexist and damaging if you don't accept that the plot is just a silly nonsense wish-fulfillment excuse plot (which a lot of young men and women I've heard talking about it don't accept).

I'm sure some Paranormal Romance is just Harlequin Romance with Vampires, or whatever. Which is mindless, and probably poorly written pulp, but then I don't pretend that my Conan The Barbarian short story collection is high art, so that's fine. It's just my fear that they follow directly in the tradition of Twilight which was bad enough to be what I consider damaging, as in, above the level of merely bad.

I really think people who take this tack are overreacting. Twilight isn't going to convince a mentally healthy girl to run out and get subjugated post-haste by a controlling jerk. Neither can the most heartfelt, impassioned plea convince a girl in an unhealthy relationship to leave it. Even before Twilight's dastardly influence, there have been many women who willingly stay in abusive relationships. It'll take a lot more than internet doom-saying to convince me Twilight has had a statistically significant effect on the relationships chosen by young women.

Twilight has many extremely vocal critics in the mainstream, and I don't believe the existence of Twilight has caused a net harm to teenaged girls or womankind in general. MUCH more harm is done to young women who witness their parents' dysfunctional relationship and believe it's normal. Twilight is just a fun fantasy. It's fun and sexy to read about an attractive young girl who's willing to give up her humanity for an attractive young-looking guy.

Like I say, as long as they're reading, that's what's important.

[Malleus, Incus, Stapes!]

Originally Posted by Nanoda

At my local used bookstore it's called "Urban Fantasy", and was taking up a sizeable chunk of real estate. Just showed up this year.

Urban fantasy isn't necessarily the same thing as paranormal romance. Urban fantasy just means stories that take place in the modern world and have magic. You can find a book or two that aren't "Harlequin with fangs" if you look carefully.

[Jragon]

Racellelogram -- I've made the same argument before, but I've talked to a few tween girls (which, granted, I don't make a habit of, a couple were cousins, a couple I met via the magic of forced awkward conversation in various places like on a train to the Grand Canyon) who have said things to the effect of that Twilight is so romantic and that they're holding out for a guy like Edward. When I point out they should think about it I get a really good "but he cares about her so much, he loves her so much he doesn't want to lose her to some other guy and protects her from seeing other guys" stuff.

I was in your camp until I was floored by actually seeing it in the wild, I'm usually in the "kids are smarter than we give them credit for" camp. Now, it's every possibility that my small sample size is working against me and I just got unlucky, but just anecdotally it seems like it's actually affected the relationship POVs of at least the young women I've talked to about it (which, again, is around the ballpark of "about 5 of them").

[BrainGlutton]

Originally Posted by Sam Lowry

I say this as an adult woman who has never read any of the Twilight books, but why is this so terrible that there's a "Teen Paranormal Romance" section? Is it really so much worse that teenagers are reading about girls falling in love with handsome vampires as compared to 10 years ago when they might have been reading about girls falling in love with handsome football players?

See 101 People Who Are Really Screwing America, by Jack Huberman. #96 is J.K. Rowling. And it's a fair call. Yes, I liked all the Harry Potter books and the movies too, and, yes, she's getting kids to read; but, she's also adding to the amazingly resurgent antirationalism and superstition of this period in our culture. And this plague of Twilight-knockoffs is just another set of causes/symptoms of the same.

And, if they're anything like Twilight, they're not even good vampire-or-whatever fiction. As The Buffalo Beast published in its "50 MOST LOATHSOME PEOPLE IN AMERICA, 2008" list:

31. Stephenie Meyer

Charges: She’s the unforgivably perky Mormon mom who wrote the Twilight Series of books, currently draining IQ points from Western Civilization. This silly wank-off vampire fantasy for teenage girls has been embraced by legions of sad, middle-aged women who fight for access to their daughters’ sticky copies of the books. It’s an embarrassing spectacle for all Americans who aren’t actively participating in it. Meyer admits she can't handle the better class of vampires and has never watched a whole vampire movie, even the more anemic kind: “I've seen little pieces of Interview with a Vampire when it was on TV, but I kind of always go YUCK! I don't watch R-rated movies, so that really cuts down on a lot of the horror. And I think I've seen a couple of pieces of The Lost Boys, which my husband liked, and he wanted me to watch it once, but I was like, ‘It's creepy!’”

Exhibit A: The hit movie version of Twilight, featuring Meyer’s dreary characters, a tiresome teenage girl and the pathetic “vegetarian” vampire who loves her, mooning around on first base for two hours and giving vampires everywhere a bad name.

Sentence: Meyer encounters a non-vegetarian vampire, who kills her immediately and gruesomely in front of an appreciative audience of horror film fans.

[BrainGlutton]

Originally Posted by Jragon

I'm sure some Paranormal Romance is just Harlequin Romance with Vampires, or whatever.

That's another thing. The Romance section at B&N would be vastly improved, these days, if vampires and werewolves were barred from it.

[Malleus, Incus, Stapes!]

And coming from the other side, werewolf and vampire fiction would be vastly improved if they cut down on the pulp-novel romance.

[Rachellelogram]

Originally Posted by Jragon

Racellelogram -- I've made the same argument before, but I've talked to a few tween girls (which, granted, I don't make a habit of, a couple were cousins, a couple I met via the magic of forced awkward conversation in various places like on a train to the Grand Canyon) who have said things to the effect of that Twilight is so romantic and that they're holding out for a guy like Edward. When I point out they should think about it I get a really good "but he cares about her so much, he loves her so much he doesn't want to lose her to some other guy and protects her from seeing other guys" stuff.

I was in your camp until I was floored by actually seeing it in the wild, I'm usually in the "kids are smarter than we give them credit for" camp. Now, it's every possibility that my small sample size is working against me and I just got unlucky, but just anecdotally it seems like it's actually affected the relationship POVs of at least the young women I've talked to about it (which, again, is around the ballpark of "about 5 of them").

I'm sorry you met some idiots who can't separate fantasy from real life, but your experience is still not statistically significant.

[Justin_Bailey]

Originally Posted by Skara_Brae

I was big into paranormal romance when I was a teenage girl, and that was well before Twilight. I was way into LJ Smith's stuff, who now has 2 TV shows (Vampire Diaries and Secret Circle) based on her books. So its always been now, but now may be getting more prevelent.

I know! The handwringing over a genre that first started making waves at least 20 years ago is seriously amusing to me. As is the idea that Stephanie Meyer is some kind of hack who Mormon voodooed her way into a book deal. I've said it before and I'll say it again, Twilight isn't amazing literature, but it's leagues ahead of a lot of published YA.

Originally Posted by BrainGlutton

See 101 People Who Are Really Screwing America, by Jack Huberman. #96 is J.K. Rowling. And it's a fair call. Yes, I liked all the Harry Potter books and the movies too, and, yes, she's getting kids to read; but, she's also adding to the amazingly resurgent antirationalism and superstition of this period in our culture. And this plague of Twilight-knockoffs is just another set of causes/symptoms of the same.

Oh please, science fiction and fantasy has always captivated Americans. Jules Verne, HG Wells, A Trip to the Moon, comic books, Tolkien, Star Wars, Harry Potter.

Again, to pretend this is some "new plague" is to close your eyes to decades of popular culture.

[BrainGlutton]

Originally Posted by rachelellogram

I'm sorry you met some idiots who can't separate fantasy from real life, but your experience is still not statistically significant.

Among teenagers?! I should think it is.

[ZPG Zealot]

Originally Posted by Sam Lowry

I say this as an adult woman who has never read any of the Twilight books, but why is this so terrible that there's a "Teen Paranormal Romance" section? Is it really so much worse that teenagers are reading about girls falling in love with handsome vampires as compared to 10 years ago when they might have been reading about girls falling in love with handsome football players?

Agreed. Teenagers reading pulpy escapist fiction is actually a good thing IMHO. They are actually reading rather than merely watching passively.

[Lamia]

Originally Posted by Justin_Bailey

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Twilight isn't amazing literature, but it's leagues ahead of a lot of published YA.

I've seen you say this before on here, but I don't think you've ever specified what published YA you think is worse than Twilight. I am (morbidly) curious to hear about them.

[Justin_Bailey]

Originally Posted by Lamia

I've seen you say this before on here, but I don't think you've ever specified what published YA you think is worse than Twilight. I am (morbidly) curious to hear about them.

When I say that I'm usually referring to Cory Doctorow's Little Brother. I was taking a Teen Literature class at the time and read both books back-to-back. Twilight was a mildly amusing throwaway, but Doctorow's book was just terrible. The fact that it pretended to be IMPORTANT made it worse. Then it won a whole bunch of awards at the same time the Twilight backlash started.

A few others I hated from that class were The Chocolate War by Robert Cormier and House of Stairs by William Sleator. Both were just awful, awful reads.

[jsgoddess]

While I don't like paranormal romance, personally, I don't see what the big deal is.

Twilight is a bad book, but it's not the end of the world.

[Rubixcube]

I am extremely happy that Paranormal Romance has it's own shelf now. It keeps the stuff out of the Sci-Fi/Fantasy and horror sections where it doesn't really fit in, and out of YA where it does nothing but make it difficult for male teens to find reading material. In fact I've always wished that bookstores would divide shelves into more genres and sub-genres. The fact that I have to wade through hundreds of mystery and thriller novels to find something I want to read in fiction is extremely annoying, and I imagine equally annoying for the other side too.

[Sam Lowry]

Originally Posted by Jragon

<snip>
If nothing else, the relationship presented is an idealized abusive relationship (of the flavor "he only took the spark plugs out of my truck so I couldn't see another guy because he LOVES ME SO MUCH"), and the sheer manipulation that goes on is terrible.
<snip>

That is a good point. I haven't read the books but I've heard the basic plot outline, and it definitely sounds like an unhealthy relationship, and he is not a romantic hero that girls should desire their boyfriend to be like. But that is also true of so many pieces of fiction. I haven't read a whole lot of Young Adult books, but I know from the movies that there are countless heroes that do "romantic" things in the movies that would be creepy or stalkerish or abusive if they did it in real life.

Originally Posted by rachelellogram

I really think people who take this tack are overreacting. Twilight isn't going to convince a mentally healthy girl to run out and get subjugated post-haste by a controlling jerk. Neither can the most heartfelt, impassioned plea convince a girl in an unhealthy relationship to leave it. Even before Twilight's dastardly influence, there have been many women who willingly stay in abusive relationships. It'll take a lot more than internet doom-saying to convince me Twilight has had a statistically significant effect on the relationships chosen by young women.

Twilight has many extremely vocal critics in the mainstream, and I don't believe the existence of Twilight has caused a net harm to teenaged girls or womankind in general. MUCH more harm is done to young women who witness their parents' dysfunctional relationship and believe it's normal. Twilight is just a fun fantasy. It's fun and sexy to read about an attractive young girl who's willing to give up her humanity for an attractive young-looking guy.

Like I say, as long as they're reading, that's what's important.

It's true that no girl is going to completely change what she wants in a guy just from reading Twilight. No one bases all their life decisions on any one piece of fiction. But books, movies, TV, and other entertainment does affect us to some extent, in influencing us in what we think is cool, exciting, realistic, and in other ways, and in often ways we don't fully realize.

And if it was just Twilight that had a controlling romantic hero, that would be one thing. But it's in a lot of stories where the hero is semi-abusive but the heroine knows it's just because he loves her so much.

[BigT]

Originally Posted by Malleus, Incus, Stapes!

Urban fantasy isn't necessarily the same thing as paranormal romance. Urban fantasy just means stories that take place in the modern world and have magic. You can find a book or two that aren't "Harlequin with fangs" if you look carefully.

I know. What do they think Harry Potter was?

[BigT]

Originally Posted by Jragon

Racellelogram -- I've made the same argument before, but I've talked to a few tween girls (which, granted, I don't make a habit of, a couple were cousins, a couple I met via the magic of forced awkward conversation in various places like on a train to the Grand Canyon) who have said things to the effect of that Twilight is so romantic and that they're holding out for a guy like Edward. When I point out they should think about it I get a really good "but he cares about her so much, he loves her so much he doesn't want to lose her to some other guy and protects her from seeing other guys" stuff.

I was in your camp until I was floored by actually seeing it in the wild, I'm usually in the "kids are smarter than we give them credit for" camp. Now, it's every possibility that my small sample size is working against me and I just got unlucky, but just anecdotally it seems like it's actually affected the relationship POVs of at least the young women I've talked to about it (which, again, is around the ballpark of "about 5 of them").

You've mixed up cause and effect. Teen girls already liked guys like Edward. The real question is how these girls feel when they grow up.

Keyboard's broken, or I'd elaborate on this and everything else in this thread.

[kushiel]

Originally Posted by rachelellogram

As long as they're reading.

Yup. If you had tried to force 'literature' on me as a teen I would have rebelled hard and just stopped reading anything.

Newsflash to dopers: That 14 year old that loves Twilight? At 16 they'll move on to Anne Rice, at 18 to Wuthering Heights, at 20 to some sort of classic lit y'all worship that I don't know because I never finished university. :P

[Kimstu]

Originally Posted by BrainGlutton

See 101 People Who Are Really Screwing America, by Jack Huberman. #96 is J.K. Rowling. And it's a fair call. Yes, I liked all the Harry Potter books and the movies too, and, yes, she's getting kids to read; but, she's also adding to the amazingly resurgent antirationalism and superstition of this period in our culture.

I question this diagnosis. Yeah, HP is about magic, but the books don't in any way encourage realistic irrationality (except perhaps in their assumption of the existence of an afterlife for "Muggle" and "magical" dead alike, but a vague assumption of the existence of an afterlife is so common in popular culture and literature that I'm not going to nitpick it).

On the contrary, within the framework of the HP universe where some supernatural things can happen, the books actively discourage superstitious or antirational thinking like believing in the power of divination practices based on confirmation bias or assuming that everything must turn out all right just because you're a good person or that sort of thing. On a deeper level below all the surface froth about magic, the HP books are pretty committed to rationalism. Especially in the character of Hermione, which is the one your average girl reader is going to identify with most anyway.

[Dung Beetle]

Originally Posted by Justin_Bailey

When I say that I'm usually referring to Cory Doctorow's Little Brother. I was taking a Teen Literature class at the time and read both books back-to-back. Twilight was a mildly amusing throwaway, but Doctorow's book was just terrible. The fact that it pretended to be IMPORTANT made it worse. Then it won a whole bunch of awards at the same time the Twilight backlash started.

A few others I hated from that class were The Chocolate War by Robert Cormier and House of Stairs by William Sleator. Both were just awful, awful reads.

Oh no, I loved House of Stairs!

Granted, I was in seventh grade when I first read it, and when I read it now I see it doesn’t hold up as quality writing. However, it did scare the crap out of me and I’ve always treasured that.

Now, The Chocolate War sucked ass.

[well he's back]

So many YA and Children's award winners I've hated. (and I think The Golden Compass = pretentious bullcrap).
Twilight 'saga' is no better than the 'Flowers in the Attic' trash of a few decades ago.

it hardly matters. judging from what I see at the high school and middle school libraries where I work, kids don't read anyway. seriously. 1 or 2 out of a 100 or more I see during a day read for pleasure.

[JohnT]

Originally Posted by rachelellogram

I really think people who take this tack are overreacting. Twilight isn't going to convince a mentally healthy girl to run out and get subjugated post-haste by a controlling jerk.

I agree. It's like saying all those housewives reading 50 Shades of Grey are going to abandon their families for a little BDSM fun with random strangers. Really?

It's a damn good thing we have all these guys who are man enough to tell the little ladies what they should be reading! God only knows what the world will come to if the kids are allowed to read Flowers in the Attic, er, Twilight.

[Justin_Bailey]

Originally Posted by Dung Beetle

Oh no, I loved House of Stairs!

Yeah, I think if I first read it when I was 13 I would have thought it was the best book ever. Instead I just noticed all the plot holes and couldn't believe that this trash was being held up as a classic of YA literature.