Anyone else use "benchmark dishes" for a new restaurant?

[dnooman]

Whenever I try out a new Chinese place I either order Szechuan Chicken or Chicken Lo Mein, and sometimes Kung Pao chicken. I then gauge them based on how well they hold up to previous favorites. I tend to order either of the first two without veggies, not because I don't like veggies, but because I never know what they will serve, and I like a common basis for comparison.

If it's a deli or grill, I'll try a Reuben. Those are usually good, but you can easily tell a place that knows what it's doing from one that does not using that as a test.

How do you get a feel for a new place by testing them on a dish you know really well? Or am I not being adventurous enough by using benchmark foods?

[feppytweed]

For Italian places, it's their lasagna. If you can't pull off lasagna, then you don't need to call yourself an Italian restaurant. Anybody can sling sauce and cheese on a crust and call it pizza, but I've been very disappointed at how some restaurants can have decent pasta or pizza, but just can't figure out lasagna.

[silenus]

Reported for forum change.

That said, oh yeah. I always order chili relleno at a new Mexican place. If they make that right, chances are they'll do most everything else right. Also a good sign is menudo on the weekend. I won't eat it, but I like seeing it on the menu.

[dnooman]

Originally Posted by feppytweed

For Italian places, it's their lasagna. If you can't pull off lasagna, then you don't need to call yourself an Italian restaurant. Anybody can sling sauce and cheese on a crust and call it pizza, but I've been very disappointed at how some restaurants can have decent pasta or pizza, but just can't figure out lasagna.

I agree completely. A masterful lasagna shows a time-tested recipe, as does a really good Tiramisu IMHO. I don't have the palate to gauge a really good linguine with clams from the next, but it's as often awesome as it is kinda off-putting sometimes. When the Alfredo sauce is made according to the original recipe, that is awesome. Also, you will likely have to see your doctor the next day, but it may be worth it.

[zoid]

I only do it to places in my neighborhood to see if it's worth going back.

In an Italian place I try the spaghetti and meatballs. I'll go no further if you can't get that right.
In a French place I'll try the steak frites - again it's so simple but so many places screw it up.
As a general rule if roast chicken is on the menu I'll try that. It's dead simple but requires just a bit of attention to detail to nail.

[Gukumatz]

[Mod Hat]

This one's more appropriate for Cafe Society, I think.

Moved from IMHO -> CS.

- Gukumatz,
IMHO Mod

[BigNik]

Absolutely. For Thai places, especially - if their barbecued pork or duck larb isn't up to scratch, I don't care about how good their crying tiger or jungle curry is, because I don't order that every time I'm there.

Chinese places have to have a good salt-and-pepper pork, Indian restaurants need to be up to speed on their rogan josh.

[fifty-six]

Fry Indicator: French fries are a good indicator. If they are perfect, crisp, clean and hot they have a clean kitchen and expedite their orders well.

View Indicator: View is a great indicator. The better the view the worse the food. Food and service is especially good if the view is blocked by a famous view type place. Fell free to order anything.

Radicle fried indicator: If more than 20% of the menu is filled with fried or "extreme" food all of it sucks.

Buffet indicator: Chinese restaurants without a buffet are usually good.

Deli Case indicator: If there is a deli case close to the front of the building it is a good indicator in quality and freshness. Deli cases are very expensice and usually the rest of the kitchen equipment will be of good qulity and that will resonate throughout the place.

Burger indicator: For a simple food there is much to judge a place by. Is the lettuce crisp? Tomatoes flavorful? Bun warm and fresh? Burger cooked properly? Will they cook it rare?

Chalk Board indicator. A good chalk board is a great sign, Usually...

I agree with lasagna. Come on if you cant make a good one there are serious problems.

Specials Indicator. More than 4 special is a sign of a place that is overcompensating for something. Order off the menu. To much juggling.

Restaurant review indicator: Don't go to places ranked on the first three in the general category unless they service has max stars. 3-20+ should do a great job. Cuisine specific rating should be okay in the top position but you are better of with 2-5 depending on the size of the city.

Those are a few of my indicators. I have plenty more but decided to stop, especially since I am not addressing the OP's question exactly.

[fifty-six]

Originally Posted by silenus

Reported for forum change.

That said, oh yeah. I always order chili relleno at a new Mexican place. If they make that right, chances are they'll do most everything else right. Also a good sign is menudo on the weekend. I won't eat it, but I like seeing it on the menu.

Couldent agree more.

[dnooman]

Originally Posted by fifty-six

Those are a few of my indicators. I have plenty more but decided to stop, especially since I am not addressing the OP's question exactly.

Your post was exactly the kind I was looking for! List as many as you want.

[Derleth]

I like to get the menudo at Mexican places; if they don't even have it, that's a strike against them, because a place that Americanized is unlikely to be very good. After that, if the menudo's bad, I won't trust them with anything that's actually hard to make.

(Menudo is just a beef tripe stew. The catch here is the tripe: It isn't exactly common in Anglo cuisine, and a number of Anglos have a rather visceral reaction to it, meaning that it's something you have to, one, know you should seek out (it isn't on the menu at Taco John's for a reason) and, two, expect enough Mexican cuisine lovers to bother. If either of those are not true for your restaurant, your food might be good but it's unlikely to be very Mexican.)

That, and I like menudo.

(A catch: A number of Mexican restaurants in New Mexico (State motto: "Red or Green?") don't have it. They're as authentic as you're likely to get in this country, but they focus on other things. In Montana, however, the menudo test makes more sense.)

[pulykamell]

Of course.

For an Italian wood-fired style pizza place, it's the pizza marghareta. For a Chicago thin-crust style pizza place, it's a plain sausage pizza. Actually, the same for a deep dish place.

I don't don't much straight-ahead Italian, but if I do, I like a simple risotto milanese or spaghetti carbonara (or bucatini all'amatriciana if they got it.) The pasta needs to come al dente, it shouldn't be drowning in sauce, it shouldn't be made with smoked bacon (pancetta or guanciale, please) and the carbonara had better not have cream or, God forbid, peas in it. I'm not saying that it's not okay to like that kind of carbonara, but if it comes with any of those, it's not going to be the style of Italian that I prefer.

For barbecue places, I like getting whatever meat seems to be their specialty, with the sauce on the side, so I could judge the barbecue itself when it's not drowning in sauce. Barbecue should be good on its own.

In general, though, I try to look for what that restaurant's specialities seem to be and order that. For example, there's plenty of Mexican restaurants here that have subpar chile rellenos (hell, a lot don't even offer them), but excel in, say, tacos al pastor or cochinita pibil, or whatnot. And there's places that have great chile rellenos, but everything else is just so-so.

[obfusciatrist]

I don't. I order what sounds good at the time. If the kung pao is good it doesn't really matter to me if the lasagna isn't (though I probably wouldn't often go to a restaurant that sells both).

[Sigmagirl]

Originally Posted by dnooman

Whenever I try out a new Chinese place I either order Szechuan Chicken or Chicken Lo Mein, and sometimes Kung Pao chicken. I then gauge them based on how well they hold up to previous favorites. I tend to order either of the first two without veggies, not because I don't like veggies, but because I never know what they will serve, and I like a common basis for comparison.

Mine is subgum wonton; if they don't have it, it's vegetable chow mein, which most places load up with celery because it's cheap and serve it bland as hell because they figure if you're eating vegetables, you must not eat any flavor. If I get plenty of fresh mushrooms and pea pods and a nice garlic sauce, it's a winner.

[Munch]

I think there are far better options on the menu, but I think that pad thai is a great indicator of a good Thai restaurant. In fact, a few years ago I spent a week having dinner at a different thai restaurant every day, ordering chicken pad thai (medium heat) each time. Oddly enough, I wasn't sick of pad thai by the end of it. Whenever I encounter a new thai place, I'll get the pad thai - even though I far prefer either the panang or masaman curries (depending on the weather). You can tell a lot from just one order of pad thai - are there extras (spring rolls, soup, etc.)? Are the bean sprouts fresh? Is the lime fresh or wilted? Do they chop the cilantro, or just throw a sprig on there? Are the peanuts incorporated into the sauce, or are they just thrown on as a garnish (likely out of a giant bag of crushed peanuts)?

[TriPolar]

I don't have specific benchmark dishes. I just order the more basic dishes that would seem difficult to screw up. They don't have to be the best version of the dish I've ever eaten, but if they screw up the simple ones I don't expect the others to be any better.

[kittenblue]

I guess I will be the lone dissenter here, but only because my usage of restaurants is totally different from all the posters above. I don't eat out enough (at anywhere other than the lunch options around where I work, in a mall) to really care how well a restaurant does on the basics. I can't afford to try a place a few times, eating the same thing I get everywhere else, before trying something new and different. While I'm not a truly adventurous eater, I go to a restaurant to eat something new or something I can't prepare well or easily. If I were eating out five to seven nights a week, I might want to try to compare who makes the best lasagne. But eating out is a "special occasion" thing for me. And yes, sometimes the special occasion is "It's Payday and I'm Too Tired to Cook"!

So that would be "No, I don't use a benchmark dish to judge a new restaurant"

[Ponch8]

I don't really have benchmark dishes either, but the closest thing I have to one would be fish tacos. If the fish tacos come in flour tortillas with cheese and sour cream, odds are the restaurant doesn't know what the hell it's doing.

[Chef Troy]

My father always says that if you go to a restaurant and they have chicken-fried steak on the menu, you might as well order it. It may not be any good, but nothing else will be any better.

[Acsenray]

Originally Posted by Munch

I think there are far better options on the menu, but I think that pad thai is a great indicator of a good Thai restaurant.

This is what I was going to say. When I'm at a new Thai restaurant, I order the pad thai.

[kayaker]

In a new place I'll order one of that day's specials.

If it seems to be a situation where the "special" is a way of getting rid of something that is close to going bad, I'll never go there again.

If it seems the "special" is a way to show off something they are especially proud of, and if the pride is deserving, I'll return.

[Ludovic]

Deli / ultracasual Italian / pizza joint, my benchmark dish is the cheesesteak. Ideally it should not be dry, be made of a tasty meat, but cooked in oil that's a little past its sell by date. (And Subway, I'm looking at you) and when I ask for a cheesesteak you do not say "oh, you mean a Philly cheese steak"?

[hogarth]

Originally Posted by fifty-six

Buffet indicator: Chinese restaurants without a buffet are usually good.

I think it probably makes more sense to reverse that. E.g. Chinese restaurants with a buffet are often bad.

[Acsenray]

Originally Posted by kayaker

If it seems to be a situation where the "special" is a way of getting rid of something that is close to going bad, I'll never go there again.

According to Anthony Bourdain, that's the entire purpose of specials at any restaurant. He advises always avoiding any specials.

[MsWhatsit]

Originally Posted by Chef Troy

My father always says that if you go to a restaurant and they have chicken-fried steak on the menu, you might as well order it. It may not be any good, but nothing else will be any better.

This is profound.

At Chinese restaurants, I usually go by the hot-and-sour soup. If it's overly sweet and gummy, that's a bad sign.

Thai restaurants, the green curry. If I order it hot, does it actually come hot? Is there flavor to it beyond just "spicy"?

And yeah, good fries are an indicator of a good restaurant generally. (I mean, assuming fries are on the menu. )

[pulykamell]

Originally Posted by Acsenray

According to Anthony Bourdain, that's the entire purpose of specials at any restaurant. He advises always avoiding any specials.

Did he actually say that, that that's the "entire purpose"? Because that's a pretty stupid thing to say, and he should know better. Specials at the restaurants I go to usually consist of very seasonal items or a chef experimenting with a recipe for a new menu, or things of that nature. Most of the time, it has very little to do with the types of ingredients that would be around the permanent menu. For example, one little Yucatecan place I go to will occasionally have white posole on the menu, or chiles en nogada, or a baby shark with tortilla dish, based on the time of year, the availability of the ingredients, the quality of the ingredients, etc. Sure, you may have some specials that are "let's clear out the leftover food before it goes bad" sorts of thing, but that's hardly the rule, and not at all "the entire purpose of specials."

[kayaker]

Originally Posted by Acsenray

According to Anthony Bourdain, that's the entire purpose of specials at any restaurant. He advises always avoiding any specials.

Tony is frequenting the wrong places.

Or else I have been very lucky. I have a short list of restaurants I love, owned/managed by foodies. If they are offering something as a special, it is indeed.

ETA: yeah, what pulykamell said!

[MsWhatsit]

It's been a while since I read Kitchen Confidential and I don't have a copy handy, but I thought Bourdain was advising specifically against ordering fish specials, particularly on Mondays.

[pulykamell]

Originally Posted by MsWhatsit

It's been a while since I read Kitchen Confidential and I don't have a copy handy, but I thought Bourdain was advising specifically against ordering fish specials, particularly on Mondays.

That I do remember from the book. A more general warning concerning all specials, I don't.

[postcards]

Anything trying to pass itself off as an Irish pub had better serve a good Shepherd's Pie. I wrote one place off last year when I got what appeared to be a sloppy joe under instant mashed potatoes.

As for the warnings about specials and chicken-fried steak, I must digress. One of my favorite places has a small 'regular' menu (with an excellent chicken-fried steak) and a blackboard with a minimum of seven specials; every night is different, and certainly not anything they're trying to get rid of. To the contrary, if you arrive too late, half of them will be erased.

[Labdad]

[quote=silenus;15065189]Reported for forum change.

That said, oh yeah. I always order chili relleno at a new Mexican place. If they make that right, chances are they'll do most everything else right. QUOTE]

This. The chile relleno is my test for a Mexican restaurant.

(One of these days, I have to eat and drink with silenus. It's uncanny how similar our palates are!)

[Saint Cad]

At a steak place I go with a ribeye. It is a good indicator of the quality of meat they use and very easy to cook poorly. It also is a good indicator of their philosophy of seasoning whether salt & pepper or compound butter or sauce because with a ribeye, less is more and if they are going to drown a ribeye in a ton of other flavors, then something is wrong.

For Italian restaurant it a chicken parmasan. I make a pretty good one at home, not too bready, homemade marinara and lots of cheese with roasted garlic bread. It makes it pretty obvious if the restaurant is using frozen chicken.

[Acsenray]

Originally Posted by pulykamell

Did he actually say that, that that's the "entire purpose"? Because that's a pretty stupid thing to say, and he should know better.

I don't remember his exact words, but they were along the line of "Never order a special because that's what restaurants use to get rid of the ingredients that they would otherwise have to throw out."

[CalMeacham]

In Chinese restaurants I use the Kung Pao dish, or the Szecvhuan Spcy Beef.

In Italian restaurants, it's the Chicken Piccata, partly becazuse it doesn't involve tomatoes, partly because if it's bad, it's very obvious.

[pulykamell]

Originally Posted by Acsenray

I don't remember his exact words, but they were along the line of "Never order a special because that's what restaurants use to get rid of the ingredients that they would otherwise have to throw out."

If that's what it is, it is, indeed, an incredibly dumb thing to say. I don't think he said that. He's talked about not ordering fish on Mondays; he's talked about being wary of brunches, as well as permanent menu items that look like dumping grounds for leftovers. I don't necessarily agree with all those (nothing wrong with leftovers in, say, Shepherd's pie), but I understand what he's saying. I would be shocked if he said to avoid specials as a general rule. Most specials, in my experience, are truly showcase items.

[kayaker]

Originally Posted by pulykamell

Most specials, in my experience, are truly showcase items.

Then there is the piece de resistance; when the owner comes to your table and mentions a special not on the list. "I know you love xxxx, well the chef would like to offer to make you xxxx tonight."

[Tapioca Dextrin]

I use a couple of things, but they aren't dishes; bread and wine.

In general, warm bread is a warning sign. It's normally a sign that it was in the freezer ten minutes before. White wine shouldn't be totally frigid. The good stuff is often quite happy being 45°. Red wine is best served at slightly below room temperature. If a restaurant goes to the trouble of serving it at the proper temperature, I assume they care about what they are doing.

[typoink]

Supposedly, tamago nigiri is a common benchmark dish for sushi restaurants. Done properly, it's a delicate mix of sweet and savory and also really highlights the quality of the rice.

[Acsenray]

I want some tamago now.

[pulykamell]

Originally Posted by typoink

Supposedly, tamago nigiri is a common benchmark dish for sushi restaurants. Done properly, it's a delicate mix of sweet and savory and also really highlights the quality of the rice.

Ah, yes, tamago. I love sushi, but I don't eat it with regularity. However, my cousin does and that is indeed his benchmark for a sushi restaurant.

[Ponch8]

Originally Posted by typoink

Supposedly, tamago nigiri is a common benchmark dish for sushi restaurants. Done properly, it's a delicate mix of sweet and savory and also really highlights the quality of the rice.

That reminds me of Jiro Dreams of Sushi, a recent documentary I saw the other day. The chef's apprentices aren't even allowed to attempt making tamago until they've been working with him at least 10 years. The chef's son made over 200 batches before he finally made an acceptable one.

[The Second Stone]

Sushi -- rainbow roll or spicy tuna hand roll or both
Mexican -- chile reanno (sp?)
Steak house -- filet mignon
Burger joint -- bacon cheese burger (duh)
Thai -- Pad Thai

This is a first time test. If it is good, then I will be back for other stuff.

[pulykamell]

Oh, burger joint. That reminds me. My test is plain old cheeseburger, with mustard, ketchup, onions, pickles, nothing else.

[Acsenray]

Originally Posted by The Second Stone

Sushi -- rainbow roll or spicy tuna hand roll or both

I'd definitely go with nigiri, not any kind of roll.

Mexican -- chile reanno (sp?)

Relleno

[BigNik]

Originally Posted by pulykamell

Oh, burger joint. That reminds me. My test is plain old cheeseburger, with mustard, ketchup, onions, pickles, nothing else.

Yeah, good point - but I save time there. If the mise doesn't have a bin of beetroot swimming in juice or if the onions are pre-cooked you can walk out again straight away.

[Acsenray]

Beet root at a burger place? Never seen it.

[silenus]

It's an Oz thing. They are passing strange Down Under.

[The Hamster King]

Originally Posted by typoink

Supposedly, tamago nigiri is a common benchmark dish for sushi restaurants. Done properly, it's a delicate mix of sweet and savory and also really highlights the quality of the rice.

In general, I agree with this.

Although ... my favorite sushi place does a really weird take on tamago. It's very fluffy, almost cake-y. It's very good, just not the normal omelet-like dish that most places serve.

[tumbleddown]

My benchmark is mostly a scan of the menu to see if they can handle vegetarians. It's rarely an issue with Ethiopian, Thai, Indian/West Indian or Carribean. It's iffy with Chinese. It's distressing with both Mexican and Italian, for no good reason. Near impossible with French, but occasionally there are glimmers of reason. Forget about it with standard "American" or steakhouse.

[Electric Warrior]

Originally Posted by Tapioca Dextrin

I use a couple of things, but they aren't dishes; bread and wine.

Yes the bread is what it's all about. A good Italian or French restaurant should bring a bread basket to your table without being asked, and the bread should be high quality and steaming hot (ie, just out of the oven). Italian places should also bring you olive oil.

I vet most Indian places with butter chicken (murg makhani), though largely because it's my favorite dish*. There is a local place that has a very flavorful and slightly spicy butter chicken. It has become my new standard. Also if you get samosas there should be two types of chutney.

Any place that serves burgers should ask you how you like it! Except fast food chains.

*Well that and murg methi malai or methi chooza. Any place that serves one of these I immediately know is the real deal.