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#1
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Were The Beatles better after they started taking drugs?
What, if anything, is the correlation between illicit drug use and artistic/musical creativity? It has frequently been suggested that, in particular, hallucinagenic drugs are potentially 'mind expanding'. Is there any truth to this claim and if so why are these alledged benefits to performance seldom associated with scientific/mathematical excellence? After all, isn't music really just maths?
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#2
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Moved from GQ to Cafe Society.
Colibri General Questions Moderator |
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#3
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I for one preferred them when they were rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrreal fuckin' high on drugs.
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#4
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Considering they were taking drugs as far back as their Hamburg days - before they even recorded their first record - I'll say yes, they were better after they started using drugs.
Last edited by Jack Batty; 05-14-2012 at 05:02 PM. |
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#5
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Music is not "just math."
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#6
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I didn't mean that to sound snarky -- sorry if it did.
However, benzos and amphetamines aside, they started smoking pot pretty heavily right around Revolver, which for me is the turning point from teeny-bopper, lover's lament stuff to thoughtful rock and roll, so again, I vote yes. More so once they started dropping acid and came out with shit like Lucy in the Sky and Day in the Life and I am the Walrus, etc. On the other hand, who's to say it was the drugs that made them better? They did manage to mature as people and musicians over the years, especially within the whole whirl-wind that was The Beatles. Last edited by Jack Batty; 05-14-2012 at 05:08 PM. |
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#7
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OK, that was just the title. Just picked The Beatles because I like the songs. Shouldn't have picked an example I was totally ignorant about. Lesson learned (maybe). I'm wondering if there is a more general link including for writers, visual artists etc.
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#8
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Oh, I see what you're getting at.
Well, I'm not sure. I tend to think it's more a causation/correlation thing. The type of person who would become a musician is more likely to become a person who would use drugs ... that, kind of thing. Of course, it's not just drugs, but any sort of vice, really. Did Dylan Thomas become a better writer when he became an alcoholic? Or did Dylan Thomas become an alcoholic borne from the same weird drive that made him a better writer? |
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#9
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I prefer the Beatles' later stuff - which did come after Dylan introduced them to marijuana - but it's very easy to overstate the link between drugs and creativity. Even if we take it for granted that drugs can expand people's minds and induce greater creativity, it's also true that creativity alone does not make you good. People on drugs (including the Beatles) have produced an awful lot of godawful shit because they mistook their stoner gibberish for something profound or interesting. Drug use over the long run tends to screw up your health and addiction is not great for the creative process because of effects ranging from health problems to the fact that you may be getting high and looking for drugs more often than you are making music. Making good music also requires a lot of practice, and you might not feel like doing that if you're high all the time. Drug addiction derailed Eric Clapton's career for years and obviously nobody ever overdosed on not doing drugs, although I guess there's Pat Boone. I think most drug-addicted musicians are not taking drugs to make better music. They're taking drugs because of various personal problems, some of which also drive them to make music. Didn't Miles Davis once say that he didn't take drugs to make music - he needed drugs to get through everything else, but not when he was onstage?
So I do think the Beatles were better after they started doing psychoactive drugs (I think in Hamburg they were just doing amphetamines), but I think very little of that was because they were doing drugs. It's hard to imagine a few of their great songs without drugs and I have trouble imagining a lot of Jimi Hendrix's musical output without LSD because certainly that stuff influenced the psychedelic culture. The bottom line is this: drugs don't make music. You could give a ton of bands access to drugs and the only one that would have turned into the latter-day Beatles was the Beatles. Last edited by Marley23; 05-14-2012 at 05:24 PM. |
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#10
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Everything is math(s)! That's why we can express it as 1s and 0s on a laser disk. Ok ok... You're right, music isn't really 'just maths'. That was a silly thing to say, but there's definitely a significant cross-over in things like pitch, harmony, rhythm, even ambient acoustics.
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#11
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Couldn't agree more. As I say, I'm by no means qualified to make this assesment, I'm 28 and emphatically not a Beatles buff, but I guess that it was probably also part of a general shift in music (which they obviously contributed to disproportionately themselves). Their early stuff would I imagine have been electrifying at the time but would have seemed tame and even trite towards the end of their career. Additionally, I don't think we can neglect the fact that towards the end, they had access to some of the best musical minds in the pop world. They were surrounded by peers and mentors many of whom we would consider legends in their own right. They would have had far greater freedom to experiment and a fanbase so devoted that they had virtually no chance of alienating them. Like you say though, for me the biggest factor was that they were all experienced, knowledgable, hard-working musicians with an unusual level of inate ability. Seems pretty unlikely that they would have all found themselves in the same group, but luckily they did. I only mentioned the Beatles to illustrate the point, don't know why I'm making such an extended and probably asinine digression. Could be because I've had a few beers.
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#12
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#13
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So if the Beatles weren't necessarily "better" because of (I am going to assume psychedelic drugs use) drugs, then how does one explain the transition from "I Want To Hold Your Hand" to "Tomorrow Never Knows"?
It couldn't simply be written off to the times they were in, musical/songwriting maturation, etc. I do think there's a case to be made for certain drugs at that time, particularly LSD, that seriously influenced a bunch of musicians in that era, not just the Beatles. Then there's heroin...which also hasn't hurt my CD collection...Stones, Guns and Roses, Nirvana, etc et al... |
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#14
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Of course it probably also depends on WHY you are using the drugs in the first place. If it is to escape reality or numb the pain, that may have a different impact--Huxley (like me in college) was doing it in the name of scientific research. But back to the OP, I do tend to think their LSD use did indeed have a positive impact on their music and lyrics. |
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#15
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Yeah, once upon a time, against my better judgement, and on the insistance of a cherished friend, I read a biography of Pete Doherty (cover to cover, the shame). One of it's principal theses was that Pete had initially taken to smoking heroin in order to facilitate the opening of these said 'doors of perception' and so unleash his inner musical genius. So at the very least I suppose we can safely infer that it doesn't always work. (Sorry to any fans, it's all subjective)
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#16
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They were no better after they started doing drugs.
They were very talented people who happened to do drugs. Do you really think they would have gone nowhere without them? |
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#17
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![]() You have to understand that "better" is a completely subjective term. You may think their "best" song is "Love Me Do", which was written before they got into drugs. But it's hard to imagine they would have ever written "Lucy in the Sky", "Strawberry Fields", or "A Day in the Life"** without psychadelic drugs. **My personal favorite Beatles song and it is also ranked by Rolling Stone as their best song. So whether or not The Beatles were "better" after they started taking drugs is a matter of taste. But I don't think anyone thinks they would have gone nowhere without them. That's just silly. Last edited by Enola Gay; 05-14-2012 at 08:47 PM. |
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#18
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The Beatles improved as time went on, but that had nothing to do with drugs.
__________________
"One never knows, do one?" Provider of quality fantasy and science fiction since 1982. |
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#19
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Citation needed.
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#20
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I really can't imagine The Beatles and Hendrix making the music they made without drugs. It's possible they would have made something else equally amazing, but drugs did have an influence on the course the music took. They didn't just sit around getting high and waiting for 12 great songs to write themselves, though, so it's easy to overstate that influence. |
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#21
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In Imagine, Lennon claims that he never realized until after "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds" was released that its initials . . . spelled anything. "And then I started looking at the initials of the titles of all my songs, and of course they didn't spell anything . . ."
Coincidence, happenstance, or Freud vindicated?
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#22
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I'm inclined to take Lennon at his word when he says he was not trying to be cute with the title of that song. But he never said the content had nothing to do with LSD, and I assume that's one of the more acid-influenced songs in the Beatles catalogue. Speaking of which, the Wikipedia entry for "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds" has Paul McCartney offering this comment:
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#23
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The whole premise of this thread is a joke from a Bill Hicks stand-up routine. See post #3.
Last edited by Gatopescado; 05-15-2012 at 12:25 AM. Reason: Go find it. He was pretty damn funny. |
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#24
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As to the first part of your question, actually drugs ARE associated with scientific excellence, to a limited degree. Many big-idea, paradigm-shifting (to use a completely overused phrase) breakthroughs are largely the result of relatively simple, creative solutions to puzzles that have stumped scientists for years. "Hey, what if the speed of light is always the same no matter how fast you're moving?" In the field of chemistry: Francis Crick and Kary Mullis both came up with their great discoveries (the structure of DNA and the polymerase chain reaction, respectively) with the help of LSD, and according to one story the structure of benzene came to Friedrich Kekule in an opium-induced daydream involving snakes biting their own tails. These are just the famous cases you learn about in school, but anecdotally the proportion of recreational drug users among scientists and musicians I know is about the same (most of my friends are scientists). |
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#25
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After they started taking drugs? What music did they make before that?
I believe they have mentioned taking drugs during their days in Hamburg, well before they became popular. And before they were playing much of their own music, instead of covers of existing rock songs. |
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#26
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Come on. Bill Hicks didn't invent this question. It's been asked a million times. I wasn't claiming it was original.
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#27
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#28
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They were taking drugs earlier, but the OP is asking about hallucinogenic or psychoactive drugs, not stuff that was just supposed to keep them awake and playing.
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#29
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#30
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Syd Barrett, on the other hand, had some serious mental health issues independent of the drugs. I will make the broad statement that mental illness + reckless, heavy lsd use= disaster. And of course, my responses here are not any attempt to encourage some aspiring musician to take drugs to help their act. But rather an attempt to answer the OPs question honestly---that indeed I do think the heavy drugs they were in to inspired some awesome music. As you say tho, the Beatles were a rare talent, and would likely have come up with some equally awesome music without the drugs. But "A Day in the Life" would likely have not been written and it's a masterpiece imo. Quote:
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#31
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The Beatles were so high they had to pull Ringo down off the ceiling with a rake.
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#32
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Did Sinatra sing better after a couple of martinis?
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#33
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I have evidence that he did -- that is unless he recorded his studio stuff completely plastered.
I heard a personal recording of some jazz dude who was once hired to play at a party Sinatra was giving. Later on in the night, Sinatra himself came up and did a song with the band (presumably with a couple martinis in him at that point.) It was.....decent. He's still pretty much my least favorite famous crooner but it was well above his usual fare. I normally don't like rough outtakes in crooners but his voice was made for it. ETA: he's sort of the Rolling Stones of jazz singing. He'd be okay to listen to at a bar when both of us are completely plastered. Last edited by Ludovic; 05-15-2012 at 05:54 PM. |
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#34
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[quote=Enola Gay;15066673]Yes, I should have said "can". Of course, as I said, I think it also depends heavily on WHY one is taking drugs to begin with. I recall a very frank interview with George Harrison (I'll try to dig it up) where he explained how LSD use expanded his mind and allowed him to create some very complex and creative musical scores that he would otherwise not have arrived at.
[quote] How would he know that? He did the drugs, he wrote the songs. He may have written better songs without the shit. |
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#35
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"He wants to sing a song. Something about a yellow tambourine."
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#36
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#37
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They were older, exposed to a wider range of influences, and at the point in their career where they could get away with a change in direction.
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#38
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I personally don't get the impression that John Lennon is the type of guy who would lie about anything. But he is pretty out there in general (even when sober) so his take on reality may be vastly different from the guy standing next to him. Add to that his very tongue in cheek sense of humor during interviews and the whole interpretation gets very convoluted. |
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#39
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Were The Beatles better after they started taking drugs?
Not just no, but hell no. They really flushed themselves down the toilet with drugs. |
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#40
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Waitaminnit, now, what's all this nonsense about the Beatles taking drugs?! Those nice boys from Hard Day's Night?! Tommydash, sir, balderrot!
Last edited by BrainGlutton; 05-15-2012 at 10:18 PM. |
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#41
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Their introduction to pot roughly marked the beginning of the transition, but I think it had more to do with the person who introduced it--Bob Dylan. Just about every serious songwriter was influenced by him. John Lennon said once that he started to feel silly as a married man writing teeny bop songs and wanted to write more seriously like Dylan. Drugs became a big part of their lives and that came out in their music, but it was Dylan who creatively led them away from She Loves You, Yeah Yeah Yeah.
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#42
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Does John say it isn't? I've only heard him deny that the LSD initials were a coincidence and were unintentional.
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#43
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I'm gonna go with a guarded "yes"... ultimately the drugs marked the change from an immature pop band to a mature artistic style, but at the cost of some mediocre crappy music in the transition, and ultimately some whacked-out and broken attitudes that ultimately killed the band.
It's just a damn shame that the Billy Preston angle couldn't have gone on for a couple of years. Listen to "Don't Let Me Down." They were really on to something with that. Seriously, it's one of the best songs I know. But that wasn't directly due to drugs... more like coming back down off the drugs and setting into good but different style. Last edited by HMS Irruncible; 05-16-2012 at 07:54 PM. |
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#44
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#45
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Another way of looking at it.
Music, in general sounds better when stoned. Yes, people from D.A.R.E. and assorted special little snowflakes may disagree, but it's almost universally acknowledged. There is a strong correlation between quality of output (in almost any field) and enjoyment of the activity leading to the output. The rest is history. |
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#46
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Yes, indeed.
When the listener is stoned. |
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#47
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I take it you don't play an instrument. I guess wiggling fingers or flapping hands might be fun on its own, and I'm sure there are a handful of ulterior motives to play an instrument, but the joy of playing an instrument is listening to that instrument, whether by yourself or interacting with others.
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#48
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Could only find snippets of the interviews online: From songfacts.com: Quote:
And from Beatlesbible.com: Quote:
Their stories were always diametrically opposed and I never knew quite what to make about that. But after reading a tremendous amount about them, including interviews, I drew the conclusion that neither one was lying, but they just experienced or remembered it differently. And given that they both admitted to doing thousands of acid trips, who knows what really happened and whose memory should be trusted? Either way, it's an awesome song. |
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#49
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Thousands of trips? That would take years. I didn't think they were around post-acid long enough.
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#50
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