Anyone watch "Johnny Carson" on PBS American Masters?

[River Hippie]

Like many Americans around my age I grew up watching Carson and I felt his death pretty deeply as celebrity deaths go. The AM segment on him which I watched last night was pretty interesting. Covered a lot of his early years that I never new much about. I knew a little about his interest in magic and drums but didn't realize he was as good at that as he was. I was quite surprised to see him singing while playing guitar! Who knew?
One highlight for me was Drew Carey getting choked up while recounting his Tonight Show debut.
A pretty thorough overview of Johnny's life, I thought.
Anyone else watch? Anything left out?

[Zeldar]

Top notch show! Well balanced with a lot of details I was unaware of beforehand.

[AuntiePam]

I watched all but the last few minutes. He was a big part of my life too, and I have his final show on VHS. I remembered a few of the bits they showed -- Doc kidding about being invited to Johnny's house, and of course Ed Ames and the hatchet.

Jerry Seinfeld was right when he said if you did well on Johnny's show, it was the career boost. Except that some people were only on Carson -- I sure don't remember seeing Brother Theodore anywhere else. And Andy Kaufman -- who else would have booked him?

And Drew Carey was right when he said it was special to be invited over to the sofa after the act was over -- that didn't happen all the time.

I had thought all of his wives were named Joanne (or a variation thereof), but just two of the four were Joannes. I didn't even know about his fourth wife.

His biographer didn't seem to like him very much. Everything he said was negative. Might have been true, but it was kinda surprising.

Is there a psychological term for someone who loves the limelight but only when in character? There weren't many people on the show who were identified as "friends".

And how sad about his mother.

The show also gave me another reason to dislike Joan Rivers. What a coward, not to tell him she was going into competition with him.

What's going to happen with all those master tapes?

[Beware of Doug]

My take on Carson? He had the bizarre luck to become a tremendous success in a world that really was not that welcoming to people like him, with his background or sensibility. That private nature might very well have come from having to deal with and, ultimately, rely upon an army of garden-variety show business weasels. And yes, Joan Rivers, whatever else you think of her, behaved like a class A weasel to him in doing what she did.

Johnny's comic sense, abilities and class came from a very different place than the traditional entertainment world. Although America at large found him refreshing and relatable, he still had to depend on an entertainment industry infrastructure that operated on a much older and more established model. He probably found it distasteful in the extreme.

Deep down, he probably agreed with Ma Carson more than he would have liked to admit: his achievements and status, however much he enjoyed the houses and boats and cars and women, really weren't anything to be impressed about.

I for one had no idea that he had so quietly left $156 million to start a charitable foundation. Hopefully that act brought him peace in his last years.

[Beware of Doug]

Originally Posted by AuntiePam

Jerry Seinfeld was right when he said if you did well on Johnny's show, it was the career boost. Except that some people were only on Carson -- I sure don't remember seeing Brother Theodore anywhere else. And Andy Kaufman -- who else would have booked him?

Kaufman was on SNL at least once; Theodore had been on Merv Griffin's show in the '60s and was an early regular on Letterman.

His biographer didn't seem to like him very much. Everything he said was negative. Might have been true, but it was kinda surprising.

Not if you're familiar with the traditions of show biz biography. You basically have two choices: canonize your subject or make him tragically, even distastefully, flawed. The latter will generally sell more copies.

What's going to happen with all those master tapes?

As the years pass, the audience for them will dwindle but the legal costs to bring them out will stay steady or increase. I expect they'll molder in the vaults for that reason.

[oliversarmy]

I missed the beginning, but I thought it was a very interesting show. Some of it, I knew already. I knew he was extremely private and introverted. The part about him being a bad drunk was interesting.

I thought it was telling that the two people who teared up about Carson were Carey and Doc Severinsen. I think they both knew he gave them a tremendous opportunity and he didn't have to. They both knew they owed him a lot. That is not to take away either's talent in anyway.

The others, such as Seinfield and Sandling, knew Carson gave them a big break, but I also felt they thought they would have made it anyway.

I would like to see serious documentary on the whole Leno-Letterman-Carson business that's not a made-for-TV mess.

[randwill]

Both Brother Theodore and Andy Kaufman appeared frequently on Letterman. Kaufman was on Saturday Night Live several times.

[Beware of Doug]

Originally Posted by randwill

Both Brother Theodore and Andy Kaufman appeared frequently on Letterman. Kaufman was on Saturday Night Live several times.

Thanks for restating that. Straight info gets overlooked easily when the poster has a reputation for ranting.

[AuntiePam]

Originally Posted by randwill

Both Brother Theodore and Andy Kaufman appeared frequently on Letterman. Kaufman was on Saturday Night Live several times.

But weren't they on Carson first? Maybe I remember it that way because I watched more Carson than SNL or Letterman.

ETA after preview: Who's the poster with a reputation for ranting?

[rowrrbazzle]

Originally Posted by AuntiePam

The show also gave me another reason to dislike Joan Rivers. What a coward, not to tell him she was going into competition with him.

Read Joan's account before you judge her. In summary, according to her, they never gave her a definite indication she really would be his successor. So she took the firm offer.

[AuntiePam]

I'd rather stay mad at her.

I think it's fine that she took the job on the other network, but cowardly of her not to tell Carson about it. Does she give a reason for not telling him?

[NDP]

Originally Posted by Beware of Doug

As the years pass, the audience for them will dwindle but the legal costs to bring them out will stay steady or increase. I expect they'll molder in the vaults for that reason.

Incidentally, I noticed the show implied that nearly all the tapes from Carson's 30 years were in the vault. If so, that's significant news because it was my understanding that nearly all the tapes of the shows from Carson's New York years (1962 to 1972) were either wiped out so NBC could use the videotape again or scrapped to save space. One of the notable shows lost was Carson's October 1, 1962 debut (which only exists in form of audio and some film footage). Carson supposedly offered a handsome sum to anyone who happened to have a tape of the broadcast.

[Esox Lucius]

I'm a little too young for the Carson generation so I didn't see his show much, and when I did, his shtick and the guests he had were too passe for me. But I was intrigued partly because I knew so little about him, and partly because I saw a lot of myself in him. Loved the line from Jay Leno (who, nevertheless, strikes me as a ruthless prick the more I hear about him) about the mid-western husband who loved his wife so much, he almost told her.

[Marley23]

As someone who wasn't part of the whole Carson phenomenon, I thought it was very interesting. He's far from the first unhappy comedian, but he did come off as a remote, very lonely person. In a way it's surprising that someone like that could occupy the role he did, but when they said he had an unfailing feel for his audience, that sounded exactly right.

Originally Posted by AuntiePam

I had thought all of his wives were named Joanne (or a variation thereof), but just two of the four were Joannes.

The first three were Jody, Joanne, and Joanna.

The show also gave me another reason to dislike Joan Rivers.

Rivers did come off worse in the documentary's version of the story than in other versions I have heard. But there's no denying that his response was very vindictive. As the documentary tells it, he was not shy about getting ahead himself but he was ruthless when dealing with any perceived challenge. Talking to him ahead of time would've been thoughtful and the right thing to do, but to refuse to let her explain and not speak to her for 20 years? Neither of them looks very good in that story.

[Voyager]

Originally Posted by AuntiePam

Is there a psychological term for someone who loves the limelight but only when in character? There weren't many people on the show who were identified as "friends".

I watched him from the mid-60s on, and he is so far above any other talk show host (even Steve Allen) that it's not funny. I actually was in the audience for his game show, Whom Do You Trust. He made fun of the commercials during the breaks, and even at about 9 I could tell he had charisma.

I don't think he was in character - he wasn't Colbert. Being in a structured environment can be very comforting, and I say that as someone who would much rather be giving a talk in front of 1,000 people than mingling at a cocktail party.

[Zeldar]

Originally Posted by Voyager

I don't think he was in character - he wasn't Colbert. Being in a structured environment can be very comforting, and I say that as someone who would much rather be giving a talk in front of 1,000 people than mingling at a cocktail party.

I can endorse this point of view as one who has done a fair amount of stage work and radio as well as leading a large hobby group as president in my earlier years. Whether as "myself" or as a character I'm attempting to portray, it's the almost anonymity, coupled with being the "center of attention" that makes it much more comfortable than trying to relate one-on-one or in a small group. I have observed that trait in many of the people I've been around in similar situations. Unless a performer is performing he or she tends to remain "off to the side" in more intimate situations.

[aceplace57]

I watched the show on Carson tonight. He was such a remarkable and talented guy. I often wondered why he didn't attempt a professional career as a magician. He probably could have been really good.

Instead, he hitched his wagon to what was then still a fairly new and risky medium. He achieved so much in television. There were a lot of opportunities that he passed up. I've read he was strongly considered by Carl Reiner for what became the Dick Van Dyke show after Johnny turned it down. He was smart to stick with the Tonight Show for those 30 years.

Johnny was a very complicated and private guy. He obviously was strongly influenced by a mother that never seemed to acknowledge or praise anything he ever did. Having a cold & remote mom like that would effect any kid growing up. It's amazing he could project so much warmth on stage.

I watched pretty frequently in the late 70's and 1980's. I remember the loud suits and longish hair Carson and Ed had. They were trying a little too hard to appeal to my age group. I enjoyed watching Carson. I always watched the monologue and then turned it off unless the guests interested me.

[Beware of Doug]

Originally Posted by AuntiePam

But weren't they on Carson first? Maybe I remember it that way because I watched more Carson than SNL or Letterman.

ETA after preview: Who's the poster with a reputation for ranting?

That would be me. But I've been trying to cut down.

[Eve]

Originally Posted by Beware of Doug

Not if you're familiar with the traditions of show biz biography. You basically have two choices: canonize your subject or make him tragically, even distastefully, flawed.

Well, no. Not all of us do that.

[Leaffan]

I didn't see the show.

I have always been a huge Carson fan, and as someone else mentioned, one of the very few celebrity deaths that touched me.

What's the deal with his mother? Can someone expound on that?

[Chefguy]

Watching that program makes Larry Sanders all the more funny and biting: the insecurity, the casual affairs, etc. I wonder what Carson thought of that send-up.

[WordMan]

I didn't see it. Did they discuss the incident where apparently Carson struck his wife at a Hollywood party?

From what I have heard about him, he was quite the Pagliacci (i.e., famous clown with his own deep sadness inside).

[MsWhatsit]

Originally Posted by Leaffan

What's the deal with his mother? Can someone expound on that?

I've only watched the first half of the program so far (will watch the rest tonight) but basically, Carson's mother played favorites with his older sister and didn't think much of her two sons. He was always hoping to get her approval and she really never gave it to him. There was a heartbreaking story in the documentary where a newspaper reporter sat with her to watch Carson's monologue one night; when the monologue finished, she said, "Well, that wasn't funny at all," and got up and left. Pretty cold.

[Robot Arm]

Originally Posted by Leaffan

What's the deal with his mother? Can someone expound on that?

Just very remote and distant. When he told her he was receiving the Governor's Award at the Emmys, she said "I guess they know what they're doing." That kind of thing.

It's available online; that's where I watched it last night. Excellent show. Who knew there was a real Bombastic Bushkin. And they slipped in one of the greatest moments during the closing credits.

[Leaffan]

Originally Posted by Robot Arm

Just very remote and distant. When he told her he was receiving the Governor's Award at the Emmys, she said "I guess they know what they're doing." That kind of thing.

It's available online; that's where I watched it last night. Excellent show. Who knew there was a real Bombastic Bushkin. And they slipped in one of the greatest moments during the closing credits.

I'll watch some tonight: thanks.

ETA: Is it on Youtube or PBS. If PBS I might be blocked in Canada. Not sure.

[MsWhatsit]

Originally Posted by Leaffan

I'll watch some tonight: thanks.

ETA: Is it on Youtube or PBS. If PBS I might be blocked in Canada. Not sure.

PBS. Here's the link.

[Leaffan]

Originally Posted by MsWhatsit

....... when the monologue finished, she said, "Well, that wasn't funny at all," and got up and left. Pretty cold.

Admiral Morrison never really got Jim either.

[Leaffan]

Originally Posted by MsWhatsit

PBS. Here's the link.

Hmmm.... Won't play, but I don't know if that's a work firewall or a Country issue.

[Prelude to Fascination]

Originally Posted by Esox Lucius

I'm a little too young for the Carson generation so I didn't see his show much, and when I did, his shtick and the guests he had were too passe for me.

Not a knock on you at all; but I remarked to my wife as I was watching this show that the generational thing is interesting: our children and their children will see Carson as some guy who's funny only to the old folks. They won't get the appeal.

I'm not judging anyone on that; it's the same for the boomer generation when it comes to someone like Rudy Vallee or Clara Bow. We may know the names, and know they were very popular stars, but we don't fully get the appeal (and I'm speaking broadly here, as a generation. Individuals may of course be as in love with "old" celebrities as their parents/grandparents. But I doubt you'll find too many 20-somethings who think Jack Benny is as funny as those who were watching him in his prime.)

And the same thing will happen with today's generation: there will be a time when Justin Bieber and Lady Gaga will be playing the oldies circuit, and the then young generation won't understand the appeal. It's the way things go.

Having said all that, I thought the show was remarkably well done, and was saddened when they showed the clip of Bette Midler singing to Johnny during the final show.

[Hampshire]

Has anyone ever compiled a list of comedians invited/not invited over to the couch and their later success or failure?
I heard Carson didn't like Gallagher's act at all even though he got very popular after his appearance.

[silenus]

I think when Johnny retired is when I stopped watching any late-night TV. He was simply the best there was.

I watched the clip of Drew Carey's Tonight Show debut the other day. The look of sheer amazement and wonder on Drew's face when Johnny called him over to the dias was heartwarming.

[MsWhatsit]

I dunno. As far as age, I'm 35 and used to love watching Carson when I was younger. I never felt like he was just for the old people. I do feel that about Jay Leno these days, though.

[StusBlues]

I really need to see this.

Some of my favorite Carson shows were when he got serious. He burned Uri Geller badly one night, making it very obvious that the supposed "psychic" was a bottom-feeding fraud; sadly, this gained little traction with the general public.

Michael Landon came on the show when he was dying of pancreatic cancer. That's the only time I can remember Carson honestly struggling to find the proper tone, but once he realized that Landon was there to play for laughs, they went with it. I'm sure it was satisfying for Carson to be able to join Landon in blasting the tabloids for their irresponsible reporting; it was a rare instance of the general public being able to see how those vultures destroyed lives.

[StusBlues]

Originally Posted by Prelude to Fascination

Not a knock on you at all; but I remarked to my wife as I was watching this show that the generational thing is interesting: our children and their children will see Carson as some guy who's funny only to the old folks. They won't get the appeal.

I understand what you're saying, but I am not sure this applies to Carson. I lived with a woman for a while who was born in 1986. On our second date, she brought up how much she loved Johnny Carson--she'd seen lots of his stuff on DVD and YouTube. Some of the old stuff is dated, sure (especially if you're hung up on fashion), but he's one of those guys with cross-generational appeal.

[MsWhatsit]

Originally Posted by silenus

I watched the clip of Drew Carey's Tonight Show debut the other day. The look of sheer amazement and wonder on Drew's face when Johnny called him over to the dias was heartwarming.

Here's the clip of that, if anyone else is interested. Drew did a pretty good job, I think. You can tell he's nervous as hell, though.

[Mahaloth]

Originally Posted by MsWhatsit

Here's the clip of that, if anyone else is interested. Drew did a pretty good job, I think. You can tell he's nervous as hell, though.

Drew actually was a pretty talented comedian. I remember when he toured on the regular circuit. He was well-received.

[carnivorousplant]

Originally Posted by MsWhatsit

Here's the clip of that, if anyone else is interested. Drew did a pretty good job, I think. You can tell he's nervous as hell, though.

Thanks, that was great!

[Irishman]

I wanted to catch this, but my DVR was full.

At 40, I'm old enough to have caught some of his career. I recall when my bedtime was right after the news, and my parents would watch the monologue. I remember finally being old enough to watch, and then staying up later than my parents to watch the show.

[WordMan]

Originally Posted by WordMan

I didn't see it. Did they discuss the incident where apparently Carson struck his wife at a Hollywood party?

I am quoting myself just to bump up this question. Was this incident mentioned? I remember hearing/reading about it maybe in my 20's, when Carson was king and the incident was well-known to insiders but just not spoken of, so someone like me who saw Johnny as this always-there icon, it was a shock to hear he had that dark side...

[Kimballkid]

I don't think they did. They did talk with his second wife and she talked about how she knew about the womanizing and partying and chose to ignore it for the sake of his career and family. They also talked about how when Ed and he went out, it was Ed who always took care of Johnny by taking him out of the party when he got too drunk and belligerent.

[Marley23]

No, they never said anything about him hitting any of his wives. They did discuss his drinking several times and included an interview snippet where Carson acknowledged that he was a mean drunk.

[AuntiePam]

And he had a temper. Anyone remember the incident when Don Rickles guest hosted and broke that wooden box that was always on Johnny's desk? When Johnny returned and noticed the broken box, he walked (on camera) to the studio where Rickles was filming something and tore him a new one. He was pissed.

[Zeldar]

Originally Posted by AuntiePam

And he had a temper. Anyone remember the incident when Don Rickles guest hosted and broke that wooden box that was always on Johnny's desk? When Johnny returned and noticed the broken box, he walked (on camera) to the studio where Rickles was filming something and tore him a new one. He was pissed.

I always thought -- still do -- that that was a planned thing. All of it. If you get a chance to see it again, notice how rigged it looks.

My very favorite Carson memory is when Dean Martin flicked ashes in George Gobel's drink. Talk about a tool!

[Esox Lucius]

Originally Posted by Prelude to Fascination

Not a knock on you at all; but I remarked to my wife as I was watching this show that the generational thing is interesting: our children and their children will see Carson as some guy who's funny only to the old folks. They won't get the appeal.

I'm not judging anyone on that; it's the same for the boomer generation when it comes to someone like Rudy Vallee or Clara Bow. We may know the names, and know they were very popular stars, but we don't fully get the appeal (and I'm speaking broadly here, as a generation. Individuals may of course be as in love with "old" celebrities as their parents/grandparents. But I doubt you'll find too many 20-somethings who think Jack Benny is as funny as those who were watching him in his prime.)

And the same thing will happen with today's generation: there will be a time when Justin Bieber and Lady Gaga will be playing the oldies circuit, and the then young generation won't understand the appeal. It's the way things go.

Oh, I agree with all that and realize it's a generational thing. Learning what his appeal was after not seeing it at the time was a bit of a revelation for me.

[Sampiro]

I caught the end of it while channel surfing and saw just the parts that dealt with his decision to retire and then retirement. It was really well done and I want to see it again.

DAYUMN at that yacht he lived on. I think it was a secret at the time that he and his final wife were separated until his second wife, Joanne (with whom he remained extremely close), let it slip on an episode of Larry King when she misunderstood a question; the documentary was the first time I ever heard it specifically addressed though- they said he was still married to her because he didn't want it said he was divorced four times. The other great secret was how much money he gave away during his lifetime and in his will; he gave more than $100 million to the University of Nebraska and other schools alone, and very quietly.

I don't know if James Randi was in the documentary, but he has said on other shows that without Johnny Carson there would have been no James Randi Educational Foundation; Johnny bankrolled it in the beginning and left them a substantial endowment, but was adamant that his help remain anonymous in his lifetime (particularly when he still had his show- you can imagine how it would probably hurt his image and thus the show's success to be known as such a huge skeptic).

[Marley23]

I don't remember Randi appearing in the documentary. That's really fantastic.

[WordMan]

My Johnny Carson story: his nephew was a Partner at the consulting firm I worked at. At this point, in his late 50's/early 60's, the nephew beared a strong resemblance to Carson, which was interesting enough, but his voice! Jeez, everyone regularly commented on how much he sounded like Johnny Carson - even if they didn't know the connection.

Anyway, we had a talent show one year for hoots and giggles. A few of us pulled a band together, a couple of folks did magic for a hobby (actually pretty good), etc. Who was the MC? You guessed it. But what was cool is that this partner reached out to Johnny for tips, and Johnny had his writing team write the monologue and some topical jokes for his nephew - and he killed! It was hilarious becuase: a) the jokes were funny (sorry, can't remember them), but also b) because he totally sold them as Johnny Carson with as many gestures and phrases like Johnny's as possible. It was hilarious and fun and we all knew he was doing it with Johnny's support.

[River Hippie]

I think there was a mention that Carson and (I think) the second wife battled frequently and publicly but I don't recall any allegations in this show that he had struck any of his wives.

[hajario]

Originally Posted by Marley23

I don't remember Randi appearing in the documentary. That's really fantastic.

Randi was instrumental in helping him humiliate Uri Gellar.

[Sampiro]

He was definitely a complex guy. He was one of the richest and most generous men in show business (and as mentioned much of his extreme generosity was anonymous), yet also amazingly petty. He let his first wife, the mother of his sons, live in extremely modest circumstances even when he knew she was having trouble paying the bills, and he made all of the tabloids when he let the biracial lovechild of one of his sons live in poverty. (The child was biracial, which led to allegations of racism on his part, though he could have had more of a "that's my son's responsibility, not mine" attitude.) If you offended him, like Joan Rivers did, you were dead to him.
Ed McMahon was interviewed a lot when Johnny died, and I think people were surprised to learn that they really weren't that close. He said they had spoken on the phone several times but hardly ever saw each other. They were basically co-workers. He was apparently closest to Doc Severinsen (who has changed remarkably little in the past generation).

Originally Posted by hajario

Randi was instrumental in helping him humiliate Uri Gellar.

I don't know if Geller or Popoff happened first, but Randi said that when he showed Johnny the video of his jamming the wireless feed that gave evangelist Peter Popoff his miraculous revelations about members of his audience that Carson couldn't stop laughing for several minutes. As a magician himself, he absolutely loathed charlatans claiming real powers. (Popoff's commercials are all over late night cable now- he hawks "miracle water" and "miracle crackers" and other crap that's basically voodoo for the super-duper-uneducated-and-desperate fundamentalist Christian set.)

Trivia:

He hated prop comics. When Gallagher was the Number 1 comedian in the country he was only on The Tonight Show on nights Johnny wasn't. When his agents tried to get him on with Johnny, promising "he'll do straight stand-up, no props", Johnny still said no.

The film The Aristocrats was dedicated to him as well because, per the producers, that was apparently his favorite joke.