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  #51  
Old 05-21-2012, 04:05 AM
terentii terentii is offline
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Originally Posted by NUFCToon View Post
But let's go by ancestry, there is no doubting Johann Georg was his grandfather, all the others are rumours and conspiracies.
The preponderance of evidence, meagre though it is, indicates that Johann Georg's brother Johann Nepomuk, who took in Alois and raised him as one of his own (and later left him a legacy following the death of his wife and Alois's adoption of the family name), was Adolf's real grandfather. Johann Georg may have married Maria Anna Schicklgruber and claimed paternity just to spare his brother some domestic strife (and be made comfortable for the rest of his life).

In Mein Kampf, inaccurate as it is in some places, Adolf describes his grandfather as "a poor, small cottager." This would apply more to Nepomuk than Georg, who was a journeyman miller.

As for mental or physical defects running in the family, the region of Austria in which they lived was well-known for incest and illegitimacy in the 19th century. Inbreeding could hardly have been uncommon.

Last edited by terentii; 05-21-2012 at 04:06 AM..
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  #52  
Old 05-21-2012, 04:30 AM
terentii terentii is offline
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Originally Posted by terentii View Post
The preponderance of evidence, meagre though it is, indicates that Johann Georg's brother Johann Nepomuk, who took in Alois and raised him as one of his own (and later left him a legacy following the death of his wife and Alois's adoption of the family name), was Adolf's real grandfather. Johann Georg may have married Maria Anna Schicklgruber and claimed paternity just to spare his brother some domestic strife (and be made comfortable for the rest of his life).

In Mein Kampf, inaccurate as it is in some places, Adolf describes his grandfather as "a poor, small cottager." This would apply more to Nepomuk than Georg, who was a journeyman miller.
Also, Klara Hitler (Adolf's mother) habitually called her husband "Uncle," even though in the eyes of the law and the Church they were second cousins. (Alois and Klara had to get a special dispensation from the Catholic Church to marry.)
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  #53  
Old 05-21-2012, 09:12 AM
NUFCToon NUFCToon is offline
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Originally Posted by Zarkov View Post
Hitler was an Austrian atheist whose only humanity exists by defining Human as a sequence of DNA.
Hitler was Austrian, but he was a Catholic.

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Originally Posted by terentii View Post
The preponderance of evidence, meagre though it is, indicates that Johann Georg's brother Johann Nepomuk, who took in Alois and raised him as one of his own (and later left him a legacy following the death of his wife and Alois's adoption of the family name), was Adolf's real grandfather. Johann Georg may have married Maria Anna Schicklgruber and claimed paternity just to spare his brother some domestic strife (and be made comfortable for the rest of his life).

In Mein Kampf, inaccurate as it is in some places, Adolf describes his grandfather as "a poor, small cottager." This would apply more to Nepomuk than Georg, who was a journeyman miller.

As for mental or physical defects running in the family, the region of Austria in which they lived was well-known for incest and illegitimacy in the 19th century. Inbreeding could hardly have been uncommon.
Ian Kershaw states that Mein Kampf is full of contradictions and to just take Hitler's word for this statement read here.

Yes first cousins once removed was not uncommon, but there still was incest in his family.

Johann Georg Hiedler was his grandfather accordingly and there is no reason to doubt.

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Originally Posted by terentii View Post
Also, Klara Hitler (Adolf's mother) habitually called her husband "Uncle," even though in the eyes of the law and the Church they were second cousins. (Alois and Klara had to get a special dispensation from the Catholic Church to marry.)
They were not second cousins, they were first cousins once removed - there is a difference.
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  #54  
Old 05-21-2012, 01:21 PM
cmyk cmyk is offline
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Originally Posted by Zarkov View Post
The "Many Worlds" or "M" theory has no appeal to me. That mankind is only aware of 5% of the "observable" Universe affords me more than enough doubt that the Universe requires any additional Universe's simply to accomidate quantum mechanics, which still cannot be squared with general relativity. We humans have a long way to go before 11 dimensions need be used to explain uncertainty, let alone the arrow of time, and other such philosophical questions as to whether time even exists.

Suffice it to say that it's a good thing Einstein left Germany, and Heisenburg, the genius that he was, in the end was a traitor to humanity, Jewish or not. Sadly there are many Jews today that somehow relate "liberal" as an excuse to lambaste Israel, especially American and European Jews. The vast majority of Jews in Israel understand the nature of what an existential threat is.

I agree with you. It is strange the way things work out, when the victim becomes the victimized and petrodollars buys elitist influence among the "enlightened" people ( and especially higher education institutions). Remember, Germany in 1930 was thought to be the most enlightened Nation in the Western World. Yes, truly ... watching reality unfold is more surprising than any fictional story, no matter how artfully created.
I was being more or less facetious, but yeh, I try not to judge too hard the very complicated times of those caught in the middle of Hitler's regime. Even Schrödinger, after criticizing Nazism, at one point redacted it, despite fleeing to Ireland, and later wrote an apology letter to Einstein. Difficult times for men who were among the most intelligent on earth. Still they were human and stuck with very difficult choices in a land that was their home, and ultimately turned on them.

You can argue it showed their true colors, but I don't think our lives in such complicated, and torn times, are pure enough. Heisenberg achieved emeritus at the University of Munich was denied being the rightful successor of his former professor and peer Sommerfeld. All because of the Third Reich/SS which muddied the academic waters of Germany holding some of the greatest minds in physics of the day.

All those German and Austrian Nobel Laureates, and other great minds, were diminished because of this (most Jewish scientists had to eventually flee or were most likely killed, and most non-Jewish scientists didn't agree with the anti-Semetic movement in German physics), and ironically, it was ultimately the Bomb that brought the Allied nations victory.
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  #55  
Old 05-21-2012, 02:57 PM
John W. Kennedy John W. Kennedy is offline
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Perhaps there's some quantum state that allows one to be simultaneously Jewish and non-Jewish.

Maybe it also had something to do with Schrödinger fleeing Germany when he did. He wasn't Jewish, yet ironically, Heisenberg certainly was and Himmler, begrudgingly, let him stick around.

Weird. One did what you'd expect the other to do.
There was an attempt to have the beloved operetta composer Emmerich Kálmán declared an “honorary Aryan”. (He instead ensured that his royalty payments would go to a Swiss firm and emigrated to America. As a celebrity, he was allowed in—unlike many others.)
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  #56  
Old 05-21-2012, 05:03 PM
Malthus Malthus is offline
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Not necessarily. If Jewish women reproduce at the same rate as humans on average, then matrilineal identification would lead to the Jews making up an approximately constant proportion of the human population. You'll see slight random fluctuations, of course, but those can go up or down. If anything, 12 million is probably more than you'd expect from matrilineal identification.

As for the "Jewish as an ethnicity" question, I present a set of hypotheticals. First, suppose we have a fellow named Patrick O'Brian. His first language is Irish Gaelic. His favorite food is colcannon, the way his grandmother used to make it. His favorite song is "The Minstrel Boy", which he heard a lot growing up. Based on what I've told you, what would you say Patrick's ethnicity is? Would you have any hesitation in saying that he's Irish?

Now, suppose we have a different fellow. His name is David Cohen. His first language is Yiddish. His favorite food is gefilte fish, the way his grandmother used to make it. His favorite song is "Hava Nagila", which he heard a lot growing up. Based on what I've told you, what would you say David's ethnicity is? And what if I then told you that he attends mass every Sunday? What ethnicity would you say he is, now?
It's a good example of how one bit of added information negates the rest.

If for example your Patrick O'Brien was Black, born of two (somewhat eccentric) Black parents from Africa neither of whom had never stepped foot in Ireland, is he still "Irish"? Most people would say not.

In the case of Jews, merely having a Jewish ancestry is not enough to make one "Jewish"-- even "ethnically"-- if you expressly convert to another religion.
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  #57  
Old 05-21-2012, 05:11 PM
Malthus Malthus is offline
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Originally Posted by NUFCToon View Post
Nothing I will say will ever be 'enough', will it?

Let's look at the definition of 'Jew' okay?
I found these extracts of yours particularly "convincing" ...


Quote:
To bargain, to attempt to gain an unfair price in a business deal; to defraud
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/jew

(Jewing) Part of the wattle on the lower beak.
desmoore.tripod.com/id29.html

(58. Jews) (2006) Mel Gibson's remake of Jaws blames the Jews for the shark attacks. The end. Critics found the movie to be highly offensive and the film was soon pulled from theaters after mediocre box office receipts.
mirror.uncyc.org/wiki/Worst_100_Remakes_of_All_Time

(Jews) Mr. "Tough on everybody" made a jew joke once. While showing is "good" side (in a gay pink shirt and baby blue vest) and his "bad" side (wearing a jersey and a cap twisted to the side like a retard. Not threatening at all. ...
encyclopediaofstupid.com/stupid/index.php/Carlos_Mencia

To dream of being in company with a Jew, signifies untiring ambition and an irrepressible longing after wealth and high position, which will be realized to a very small extent. To have transactions with a Jew, you will prosper legally in important affairs. ...
http://www.brilliantdreams.com/dream...dictionary-j.…

Beneficiary of Judaism; tribalist who is dishonest about his tribalism
swordofelysium.wordpress.com/glossary/


I never knew that Mel Gibson remade Jaws with Jews as the villians, that dreaming of Jews symbolizes ambition, or that "Jewing" was part of the wattle on a beak. A real education, that.
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  #58  
Old 05-21-2012, 07:11 PM
NUFCToon NUFCToon is offline
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Originally Posted by Malthus View Post
I found these extracts of yours particularly "convincing" ...






I never knew that Mel Gibson remade Jaws with Jews as the villians, that dreaming of Jews symbolizes ambition, or that "Jewing" was part of the wattle on a beak. A real education, that.
It was from a Google search.
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  #59  
Old 05-22-2012, 12:56 AM
Zarkov Zarkov is offline
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Originally Posted by cmyk View Post
I was being more or less facetious, but yeh, I try not to judge too hard the very complicated times of those caught in the middle of Hitler's regime. Even Schrödinger, after criticizing Nazism, at one point redacted it, despite fleeing to Ireland, and later wrote an apology letter to Einstein. Difficult times for men who were among the most intelligent on earth. Still they were human and stuck with very difficult choices in a land that was their home, and ultimately turned on them.

You can argue it showed their true colors, but I don't think our lives in such complicated, and torn times, are pure enough. Heisenberg achieved emeritus at the University of Munich was denied being the rightful successor of his former professor and peer Sommerfeld. All because of the Third Reich/SS which muddied the academic waters of Germany holding some of the greatest minds in physics of the day.

All those German and Austrian Nobel Laureates, and other great minds, were diminished because of this (most Jewish scientists had to eventually flee or were most likely killed, and most non-Jewish scientists didn't agree with the anti-Semetic movement in German physics), and ironically, it was ultimately the Bomb that brought the Allied nations victory.
I wouldn't make the argument about showing their true colors. Your point about living in those times in "their" country is well taken.
People are in many ways the victims of the times they live in, whenever those times were. You can be confident that most people in "their time" felt their lives were complex.

And certainly the Nazi's perfected propaganda in the modern age.

However, when talking about the most brilliant minds of their day, those physicists, Jews and Gentiles alike that supported their Fatherland as many did in Germany could not have been ignorant to what even the average German knew was a systemic and focused plan of genocide against the Jews, Gypsies, many Priests, and those with disabilities, physical or mental and others.

Similarly those who were Jewish and in their minds, assimilated, as well or whose fathers fought in WW1, etc, could not be blind to Jewish history and had plenty of time from 1933 on to revisit historic events of the the past, whether religious or not, as these were the highly educated lot of scientists, etc.

At some point, when so many people had disappeared, these intelligent people had to either turn a blind eye and rationalize their work ahead of humanity or convince themselves that such a catastrophe was simply not possible in their current time of enlightenment and discovery. Neither position is acceptable when like you note, it's not all that complex when the issues confronting you are so exaggerated and compelling.

I cannot forgive them their decisions based on being patriotic in the face of such misery.

The bomb did change the world, to be sure. However, the War in Europe was over and America for its part, while correct in using the Bomb to save perhaps over a million American lives, did far too little far too late as it often does (WW1 for instance). To me th lesson learned is one we are seeing again today: The oceans that separate us from Europe and the rest of the "Old World" are no longer a deterrent and to be isolationist has ALWAYS cost far more lives than biting the bullet to quell a self avowed enemy when the costs would be far less in blood and treasure.

Nation building in Afghanistan? What? These are strange times indeed when once again the elite, the intelligent prefer to be ostriches and society will no doubt pay the price. Of course hindsight is always 20-20 so to suggest that in 1979 the whole issue of Islamofascism could have been dealt with is moot, and the peanut farmer did what he did and the rest is history. But I digress. When good people fail to act, all people pay the price. This has always been true and 1938 or 2001 is no different, and here we are ...again. I am optimistic that one day mankind will evolve, even while there is so much savagery today, just as then, and just as 2500 years ago. Sorry for the rant, but responsibility cannot be evaded when ignorance is gone.
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  #60  
Old 05-22-2012, 09:43 PM
NUFCToon NUFCToon is offline
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A rumour is not a fact, Hitler wasn't part Jewish he was an ethnic German, Austrians are Germans just Austria and a few other southern German states got excluded from the German Empire in 1871 when Germany was unified into a nation-state.

Technically, if Hitler was born 73 years earlier his birth place was under Bavarian rule, he would have even been born a German citizen.

Braunau am Inn, Ried im Innkreis, Schärding, Salzburg, Tyrol, Vorarlberg, and a few others have went from Bavarian to Austrian rule.

Rupertigau and Berchtesgaden and a few others have went from Austrian to Bavarian rule.

This is how Mozart even by citizenship, was a German not an Austrian as his birthplace was part of Germany then not what we now call Austria and the Austrians back then were indeed German citizens.

If anyone dares question "Are Austrians Germans?" of course they are not German citizens (prior to 1866 they were and 1938 to 1945) but they are ethnic Germans and if you deny that you are a) an idiot b) neither are Bavarians.
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  #61  
Old 05-22-2012, 09:59 PM
Marley23 Marley23 is offline
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I've banned NUFCToon because he was a sock.
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  #62  
Old 05-29-2012, 06:54 PM
wissdok wissdok is offline
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Hitler is a Christian

Recently as an atheist I have noticed many of my brethren have jumped on the... Nazi Germany was Christian and they killed the Jews ... or more specifically... Hitler was a Catholic and killed the Jews. I personally don't see the point in trying to criticize religion by matching one against the other, this especially true when you make general statements. In any event, I have debated the issue if you could really call the Nazi Government religious, but to the stuff about Adolf Hitler I really don't see much to debate. Hitler was born into the Catholic church is about as much as you can directly connect Hitler to the Christian faith, much less to Catholicism.

With that in mind, I am a little disappointed that in a 1999 column on WAS HITLER A CHRISTIAN? there were a few liberties taken with some Hitler quotes.

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/...er-a-christian

This passage:
Quote:
But in contrast to these quotes, some of Hitler's speeches definitely seem to put him in the Christian camp as a fighter against atheism. For example, he said, on signing the Nazi-Vatican Concordat, April 26, 1933: "Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without religious foundation is built on air; consequently all character training and religion must be derived from faith . . ."
To the best of my ability, I tracked that quote to the 1979 book The German Churches under Hitler by Ernst Christian Helmreich. The book is listed on Google book and the complete passage is:
Quote:
In regard to schools, a matter of utmost importance to the Catholic heirarchy, Hitler went on:
Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith. From our point of view as representatives of the state, we need believing people. A dark cloud threatens from Poland. We have need of soldiers, believing soldiers. Believing soldiers are the most valuable ones. They give their all. Therefore we will maintain the confessional schools in order to train believing people through the schools, but this depends on having truly believing teachers, not by chance Marxists who do not stand fully by their religious faith, as teachers.
First the quoted listed in the column stated that this was at the signing of Nazi-Vatican Concordat on April 26, 1933. The signing of the Concordat happen on July 20, 1933 in Rome by Vice Chancellor Franz von Papen. The meeting Hitler had in April was one of several private negotiations that Germany conducted with the Vatican leading up to the treaty. Other negotiations were held with Papen and with the German President Hindenburg along with respected delegates representing the Holy See. Outside the before mentioned book which uses Vatican records, there isn't any information on what was directly said at these meeting. As everything else mentioned about that meeting in the book doesn't directly cite quotes, along with the fact that neither Catholic representative at the meeting was there as a secretary or stenographer, I would think it more likely this shouldn't been described as quote, but as a paraphrased statement.

Later in the original column another quote is also questionable. General Gerhard Engel is listed as having heard Hitler call himself a Catholic in 1941. If the information on General Engel is correct, he kept a diary during the years of 1938 and 1943 and he recorded his daily events each night. When he first took them to get published in 1960, it would take 14 years before they saw the light of day. When published in Germany in 1974, the book was no longer in diary form. Admittedly General Engel edited many entries in the time between 1945 and 1960 and it was decided to keep the historical knowledge and atmosphere which was thought to be necessary in the released book. Many sections of the book included dates and events that have been proven wrong, which could be a question of General Engel writing or the later editing of the work. As General Engel died just 2 years after the book was published, the investigation is limited. Also there is a question about the paper and ink originally used, which like the 1980s Hitler Diaries , gives doubt about it historical fact. In any event, Engel quoted Hitler 33 years after the event, and without a better description of Hitler's statement and knowing it wasn't logged into his diary until that night or later...at best that is just a questionable quote, most likely another paraphrase statement.


**********************
MODERATOR Explanation: wissdok, since there was already a thread on this column, I've merged your comment into that earlier thread... just to keep like-discussion together. -- CKDH

Last edited by C K Dexter Haven; 05-30-2012 at 06:12 AM.. Reason: Add moderator explanation -- CKDH
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  #63  
Old 05-30-2012, 02:11 AM
terentii terentii is offline
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Originally Posted by NUFCToon View Post
Johann Georg Hiedler was his grandfather accordingly and there is no reason to doubt.
There is reason to doubt, and no conclusive proof that he was. It's unlikely we will ever know.

Quote:
They were not second cousins, they were first cousins once removed - there is a difference.
Before Alois's legitimization and change of name, perhaps. Not afterwards, officially.

What sources are you citing?
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  #64  
Old 05-30-2012, 02:32 AM
gamerunknown gamerunknown is offline
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Originally Posted by terentii
What sources are you citing?
Unlikely to get a response out of him now that he's been banned.
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  #65  
Old 05-30-2012, 06:10 AM
C K Dexter Haven C K Dexter Haven is offline
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MODERATOR Explanation: wissdok, since there was already a thread on this column, I've merged your comment into that earlier thread... just to keep like-discussion together.
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