Can You Guys Teach Me To Be A Bookie?

[Covered_In_Bees!]

Please?

That's pretty much it.

• What skills and abilities are required of being a profitable bookie?
• Should I make contacts with large, muscular and intimidating men before trying to break into this business?
• On a related note, will it matter at all that I'm not physically imposing?
• Any secret techniques to getting people to pay up that may not be more publicly available (i.e. collection agencies)?
• Most importantly, how do bookies actually do what they do? That is, how do they calculate the odds that they assign each team/player/organization?

Anything else I've missed will of course be greatly appreciated, since I don't even know what sorts of questions to be asking.

[Little Nemo]

Originally Posted by Covered_In_Bees!

Please?

That's pretty much it.

• What skills and abilities are required of being a profitable bookie?
• Should I make contacts with large, muscular and intimidating men before trying to break into this business?
• On a related note, will it matter at all that I'm not physically imposing?
• Any secret techniques to getting people to pay up that may not be more publicly available (i.e. collection agencies)?
• Most importantly, how do bookies actually do what they do? That is, how do they calculate the odds that they assign each team/player/organization?

Anything else I've missed will of course be greatly appreciated, since I don't even know what sorts of questions to be asking.

My understanding is that it's like a pyramid. You won't have your own independent bookie operation. You'll sign on as a franchise with some other bookie, who'll have connections with somebody else, who'll know somebody else, and so on up the ladder. Your role in this operation will be to take bets, collect a share of the money, and pass the rest up the ladder. In turn, you'll receive the money you're paying out, get the "line" on what odds you should be offering, and receive some protection for what is probably an illegal business.

[zoid]

I'm pretty sure it not cool to ask about illegal activity.

I will say that from my experiences in real life you're probably better off taking the quick route and just punching a cop because you're gonna end up in jail anyway. You might get away with a nickle and dime operation but if you plan on making your living this way you're gonna attract attention you don't want pretty quickly.
All it takes is one guy in over his head who doesn't want to pay and is willing to go to the cops to get out from under.

[Covered_In_Bees!]

Oh sure, get the law involved.

Look, I don't know what kind of business you think I'm trying to run here, but the profession of odds setting and bookmaking is a vibrant, profitable and upstanding career choice for any individual that is interested in utilizing their outgoing and charismatic personality to do business with a rich and diverse clientele base.

[ShibbOleth]

Bookmaking is not illegal everywhere. Some soccer teams (outside of the USA) have gambling sites as sponsors. In Germany you can go to a machine in the pub and places bets during the games. Let's not let our puritanical American ways influence a valid, vibrant and profitable career choice. Or she could become a hooker in Amsterdam.

ETA: Assuming CiB! is a she. If he's a he then hooker is still a career option, I suppose.

[Covered_In_Bees!]

I'm a guy, but I'll keep "male escort" in mind I guess, good to keep your options open right?

[MPB in Salt Lake]

Originally Posted by Covered_In_Bees!

I'm a guy, but I'll keep "male escort" in mind I guess, good to keep your options open right?

If you go the male escort route, your "options" aren't the only thing you'll need to keep open....

[Covered_In_Bees!]

You can give me advice for male escort when I open* that thread. Let's get my bookmaker career off the ground first, yeah?

EDIT: And it'll be just a thread I'm opening.

[Idle Thoughts]

I realize this thread may be in jest, but it still is a thread asking about help for something that is an illegal activity, so I'm going to shut it down.

[Idle Thoughts]

After some rethinking, since it's not a thread intended to be serious, I've decided to reopen it.

[Irishman]

Originally Posted by Covered_In_Bees!

What skills and abilities are required of being a profitable bookie?

I would imagine basic accounting skills like addition and subtraction, profit and loss, etc. Also, one should probably know something about assigning odds.

Should I make contacts with large, muscular and intimidating men before trying to break into this business?

If you don't, you're sure to make contact with large, muscular and intimidating men when you do try to break in.[/quote]

On a related note, will it matter at all that I'm not physically imposing?

That depends on how you deal with large, muscular and intimidating men.

Any secret techniques to getting people to pay up that may not be more publicly available (i.e. collection agencies)?

Blackmail can be effective. Threats to health and welfare, or health and welfare of family members is traditional. Also, not taking new bets from people that already owe you is sensible loss mitigation. Murder should be reserved for the worst offenders, not only repeat deadbeats but ones who disrespect you.

Most importantly, how do bookies actually do what they do? That is, how do they calculate the odds that they assign each team/player/organization?

That is an interesting question.

Anything else I've missed will of course be greatly appreciated, since I don't even know what sorts of questions to be asking.

What is the best method of intimidation? What kinds of injuries are the most likely to lead to repayment of debt, without getting you in more serious problems? How does one simultaneously get publicity enough to get lots of clients while keeping a low enough profile/cover to not be arrested? Do the chicks prefer bookies who do their own intimidation, or are they fine with bookies who hire muscle for the dirty work?

[Freddy the Pig]

Let's assume it's legal where you're are, and forget the muscle stuff. (I can't help you there, anyway; I'm a wimp.) Even so, you'll need connections with bigger bookies. It's a lot like insurance. Unless you've got tons of capital, you won't be able to cover all your bets. You'll need to lay some of them off with a bigger book, and get a line of credit for when you can't or don't.

Unless you're taking really unusual prop bets, or bets on really local events (like high school football), setting odds shouldn't be a problem. You'll use odds set by others. If you deviate from those odds, you'll lose business on the side which you give shorter odds, and you'll open yourself up to a shit-ton of risk on the side you give longer odds. Just stick with the Vegas line.

Even though you're legal, security will be important. You're handling lots of cash and are vulnerable to robbery. Get good insurance, too. Don't take bets on credit, and you won't have to worry about collections. Beyond that, it's mostly marketing and cash management.

[notfrommensa]

A friend of mine is a very small time bookie to the back yard BBQ crew. He deals with the guy that likes to bet $5 or $10 a game. He won't let anyone have a big line of credit and expects to settle up twice a month. I don't think he nets more than a couple hundred dollars a week from the "juice". A $10 per bet, I think $200 in juice is booking 200 bets at $10/bet

He only deals with NFL CFB and CBB and the big horse races. He won't do anything special.

He does have big timer contacts. If one of his clients wants to put up a big time bet, he gets the bet done through the Vegas bookies.

He uses published odds at Vegas bookies (or newspapers).

Lots of online sites with published odds. betfair, paddypower

FWIW, this is not advice on how to become a bookie.

[Chronos]

The big key that a lot of people don't realize: The odds a bookie offers are not just a function of the actual probabilities, though the probability is one of the major ingredients. A bookie's goal is to be in a position where he doesn't care who wins, and will rake in the same net either way. So if one team is more likely to win, you have to reflect that in the odds, to move folks to the other side of the bet... But things like the fanaticism of the fan base can also tip the scales. There are some folks out there who will bet for their favorite team no matter what the true probabilities are, and you have to balance them out, too.

[zoid]

Originally Posted by Chronos

The big key that a lot of people don't realize: The odds a bookie offers are not just a function of the actual probabilities, though the probability is one of the major ingredients. A bookie's goal is to be in a position where he doesn't care who wins, and will rake in the same net either way. So if one team is more likely to win, you have to reflect that in the odds, to move folks to the other side of the bet... But things like the fanaticism of the fan base can also tip the scales. There are some folks out there who will bet for their favorite team no matter what the true probabilities are, and you have to balance them out, too.

Yep, ideally you just want to walk away with your juice (or vig).
You do this by adjusting the odds from time to time to encourage bets on the side your light.

[LawMonkey]

Folks are sort of dodging the question by saying to use Vegas odds (though, to be fair, this is presumably what you'd actually do if you were a small-time bookie nowadays). How does Vegas come up with the odds? I think Chronos is probably in the right neighborhood for at least some of the factors, but I'd actually love to know what really goes into coming up with the numbers.

[Chronos]

Ultimately, I'm sure there are a handful of very well-paid folks in Vegas who use a combination of heavy statistical models like what you see from Nate Silver, and intuitions that were extraordinarily good to begin with and trained by decades of experience.

[Little Nemo]

Originally Posted by Idle Thoughts

After some rethinking, since it's not a thread intended to be serious, I've decided to reopen it.

Sure, "rethinking".

It's clear the OP wasn't making his pay-offs to the moderators and they closed down the thread to remind him who runs the rackets in this board.

[Rhythmdvl]

Let's not forget the important items.

You'll need a nickname. Something classy, yet with a hint of seediness.

You'll also want to pick up some sort of accent. What kind of accent depends on the clientele and nature of bets you're looking to attract.

A hat. Gotta have a hat. Do you have a hat yet? Gotta have one.

You also want to make sure you have proper travel papers. If possible, you'll want to arrange for a visa to Cuba (or whatever paperwork is necessary), because you'll eventually want to jet down there with someone you meet (perhaps at a Salvation Army mission) for an evening.

Consider what prop you'll be most comfortable with. A constant toothpick? A cigar? A cane? Something that will fit your overall style and give you something to fiddle with during conversations.

Jowls are important, but take a long time to develop. Start working on them as soon as possible.

I'm sure there are more, but this is all I have at the moment.

[Johnny Q]

Don't make book if you cannot cover bets--T. Lehrer

[Quercus]

Originally Posted by Chronos

Ultimately, I'm sure there are a handful of very well-paid folks in Vegas who use a combination of heavy statistical models like what you see from Nate Silver, and intuitions that were extraordinarily good to begin with and trained by decades of experience.

This is how they start -- though again, Vegas isn't trying necessarily to figure out what the real odds are, but rather what odds will get equal bets on each side -- but if lots of bets start coming in on one side, Vegas will adjust the odds to try and balance things.

The problem with doing that as a bookie in, say, Philadelphia, is that your local clientele isn't betting the same as the nation as a whole. So if you give Vegas odds on the 76ers-Celtics, you're going to end up with a lot more money bet on the 76ers. And if you give much shorter odds on the 76ers to try and balance things, your local clientele will probably not be pleased. So you need someone who can balance out all your bets on the 76ers with bets on the Celtics, either a national organization with deep pockets, or at least a way of getting in touch with some local bookies in Boston who have the opposite problem.

[zoid]

From what I've heard () htere's always enough people willing to bet against the home team if the odds are in their favor. About the only time this changes is during playoffs or a close playoff run. In those cases you just don't make book on that game. You may piss off the folks who make 2 bets a year but real betters will still bet other games.
Also if you live in a fairly densely populated area you're not going to be the only act in town. It's a good idea to be friendly with the other guys. You can work together to avoid things like cross bets which are very bad for both of you and you can sometimes take each others action if say I'm overloaded on the home team and you're overloaded on the visitor.

[notfrommensa]

Originally Posted by Rhythmdvl

Let's not forget the important items.

You'll need a nickname. Something classy, yet with a hint of seediness.

You'll also want to pick up some sort of accent. What kind of accent depends on the clientele and nature of bets you're looking to attract.

A hat. Gotta have a hat. Do you have a hat yet? Gotta have one.

You also want to make sure you have proper travel papers. If possible, you'll want to arrange for a visa to Cuba (or whatever paperwork is necessary), because you'll eventually want to jet down there with someone you meet (perhaps at a Salvation Army mission) for an evening.

Consider what prop you'll be most comfortable with. A constant toothpick? A cigar? A cane? Something that will fit your overall style and give you something to fiddle with during conversations.

Jowls are important, but take a long time to develop. Start working on them as soon as possible.

I'm sure there are more, but this is all I have at the moment.

Since the OP's moniker is Covered_In_Bees!, I think he might have a lot of these attributes covered.

[Stanislaus]

My maternal grandfather ran a small scale illegal bookmaking operation in the west of Scotland sometime in the 60s. He died before I was born but from what I've heard, what you really, really need in this situation isn't muscle, or arithmetical acumen, or even access to large amounts of cash/credit. Like other customer facing businesses, you need to be able to meet the needs of your core customer base - the ones who are responsible for the bulk of your revenue and profit.

You need to be able to take money, week after week, from people who can't afford to lose it. And by "can't afford to lose it" I mean "will not now be buying their children food". Payday is the big day: the goal is to keep your clientele in there until all their money is gone. The good news is that they will need very little encouragement to do so. The better news is that you won't have to accompany them home to explain why there's going to be another cashflow issue this week.

Addiction, poor impulse control - call it what you want, but the core business plan of any bookie is to profit from the bad decisions of others.

[Little Nemo]

Originally Posted by Stanislaus

Addiction, poor impulse control - call it what you want, but the core business plan of any bookie is to profit from the bad decisions of others.

The complimentary heroin bar was a nice touch.

[Stanislaus]

Oh, they come for the gambling - but they stay for the narcotics.

[Gray Ghost]

Originally Posted by Stanislaus

...[W]hat you really, really need in this situation isn't muscle, or arithmetical acumen, or even access to large amounts of cash/credit. Like other customer facing businesses, you need to be able to meet the needs of your core customer base - the ones who are responsible for the bulk of your revenue and profit.

You need to be able to take money, week after week, from people who can't afford to lose it. And by "can't afford to lose it" I mean "will not now be buying their children food". Payday is the big day: the goal is to keep your clientele in there until all their money is gone. The good news is that they will need very little encouragement to do so. The better news is that you won't have to accompany them home to explain why there's going to be another cashflow issue this week...

In addition to the above, being a successful bookmaker, or any professional gambler for that matter, evidently is an all-consuming endeavor. The notable bookmaker Sonny Reizner wrote a letter of apology to his children for the time he didn't spend with them:

In a Christmas letter to his four children published in the book, Reizner wrote: "For more years than I care to remember, I worked seven days a week, 365 days a year. ... Was I a degenerate gambler? Maybe. ... Even though I was oft times neglectful, seemingly distant, and sometimes even unaware, my thoughts were always with you and for you."

"Every holiday, dad would read that letter to us and he would cry half way through it," said Jann Reizner, a retired Las Vegas schoolteacher. "It was a poignant letter of apology and the epitome of what it was like to live with a professional gambler. But he realized it in time and in the end, he was there to talk to, to give advice -- just to be there for us."

The professional gambler Barry Greenstein has a similar dedication to the children of gamblers in his book, Ace on the River:

"They were rarely promised anything, because the promise might have been too hard to keep. They may have wanted to play a game with their parent rather than watch a sporting event on which their parent had placed a bet. They were told everything was done so they could have toys and clothes and a nice place to live, but all they wanted was a little more of their parent's time. I apologize to my children...for when I have failed as a parent."

From reading the bios of old-time bookmakers, it seems it's a apprenticeship-guild type thing. IOW, to learn to be a successful bookmaker, one goes and studies at the feet of an established one. I really want to read Chad Millman's book, The Odds: One Season, Three Gamblers, and the Death of Their Las Vegas, in which one of the three gamblers is an established bookmaker. I imagine the book would help answer some of the OP's questions.

Bill Barnwell has a few articles at Grantland detailing a neophyte's introduction to the world of NFL sports betting that you might find interesting. In them are tidbits about how lines are generated and why and how much lines move. You might have to go get Google's cache of some of his articles, like the Viva Las Vegas/Sabermetrics in the Wasteland one.

[kayaker]

The only "factual" information I can offer is from a friend who "takes bets". He started out as a runner for someone selling numbers and worked his way up.

[Chronos]

The problem with doing that as a bookie in, say, Philadelphia, is that your local clientele isn't betting the same as the nation as a whole. So if you give Vegas odds on the 76ers-Celtics, you're going to end up with a lot more money bet on the 76ers. And if you give much shorter odds on the 76ers to try and balance things, your local clientele will probably not be pleased. So you need someone who can balance out all your bets on the 76ers with bets on the Celtics, either a national organization with deep pockets, or at least a way of getting in touch with some local bookies in Boston who have the opposite problem.

The other problem with deviating too far from the Vegas line is that nowadays, everything is interconnected. If you deviate too far, then someone in Kalamazoo or whatever can buy you out completely, and buy out the same amount on the other side, and be guaranteed a profit. Suddenly, you (and probably the other bookie, too) are the guy making the sucker bet. That'll ruin you just as surely as the big beefy guys with pinstripe suits and violin cases.

[Turble]

If you don't have some customers who don't pay up, you aren't issuing enough credit and are missing out on a lot of potential profit. If you have a big enough customer database and the business calculus skills to use it, you can calculate your own best scenario – otherwise, try aiming for about a 2% default rate. Creative forms of pressure on deadbeats can encourage many marginal players to keep their accounts up to date.

You goal is not to financially destroy your clients but to hurt them; destroyed customers don't come back. You don't want their kids to go hungry -- you want them to put off buying a new car and to keep the dream alive that the next parlay will be the one that lets them pay cash for their new car.

[Little Nemo]

Originally Posted by Chronos

The other problem with deviating too far from the Vegas line is that nowadays, everything is interconnected. If you deviate too far, then someone in Kalamazoo or whatever can buy you out completely, and buy out the same amount on the other side, and be guaranteed a profit. Suddenly, you (and probably the other bookie, too) are the guy making the sucker bet. That'll ruin you just as surely as the big beefy guys with pinstripe suits and violin cases.

I think that's why bookies usually operate as part of a nation-wide system. This allows them to sell off any excess bets. If a Philadelphia bookie gets too many bets placed on the 76ers because they're the hometown favorite, he sells some of those bets to a Boston bookie who has too many Celtics bets. Ideally, both bookies end up with a 50/50 mix of bets.

[Least Original User Name Ever]

Originally Posted by Little Nemo

I think that's why bookies usually operate as part of a nation-wide system. This allows them to sell off any excess bets. If a Philadelphia bookie gets too many bets placed on the 76ers because they're the hometown favorite, he sells some of those bets to a Boston bookie who has too many Celtics bets. Ideally, both bookies end up with a 50/50 mix of bets.

Diversify your bet portfolio.

[Irishman]

So how does that work? Does the house get a percentage off each bet, or something?

[zoid]

Juice or Vig.
In essence it's a 10% loser tax. If you bet $100 and win, you get $100. If you bet $100 and lose you owe $110.

[Little Nemo]

Originally Posted by Irishman

So how does that work? Does the house get a percentage off each bet, or something?

I'm not a bookie but my understanding is it works something like this.

To simplify things, let's say all bets have to be $100. If you pick the winning team, you get $190.

Now let's say I'm a bookie here in western NY. And let's say this week's big game is between the Seahawks and the Broncos. I get 2000 people to place bets so I collect $200,000. And this week, 1000 people are betting on each team. So if Seattle wins I pay out $190,000 to the 1000 people who picked Seattle and if Denver wins I pay out $190,000 to the 1000 people who picked Denver. Either way, I pocket $10,000.

Now it's next week and the Bills are playing the Texans. I once again get 2000 people placing bets and collect $200,000. But this week, I had 1600 people betting on Buffalo and only 400 people betting on Houston. Great news if Houston wins because I only have to pay out $76,000. But if Buffalo wins, I'll be paying out $304,000. Not a good situation for me.

So I call up my old friend Irishman, who's a bookie in Texas. We commiserate and he tells me he's in the same situation only he has 400 people betting on Buffalo and 1600 people betting on Houston. So I say, "Hey, here's what I'll do. You know those 1600 Bills bets I got for $100 apiece? I'll pay you $95 apiece to take 1200 of them." And you agree.

So I pay you $114,000 to take 1200 of the Buffalo bets. I now have $86,000 left from my original $200,000 and I have 400 Buffalo bets and 400 Houston bets. If the Bills win I pay out $76000 to 400 people and if Houston wins I pay $76000 to the other 400 people. Either way I still make my $10,000.

Meanwhile, you've now got $314,000 (the original $200,000 you got from your local betters plus the $114,000 I paid you). And you've now got 1600 Buffalo bets (your original 400 plus the 1200 I sold you) and 1600 Houston bets. If Buffalo wins you'll pay out $304,000 to the Buffalo betters and if Houston wins you'll pay out $304,000 to the Houston betters. And like me, you pocket $10,000 either way.

[GreenHell]

Get a good criminal defense attorney. This stuff about "ending up in jail" is a bit alarmist or an indication of lackluster council. I used to deal to a bookie in a weekly poker tournament. Once he came in and lamented getting busted. . . or was that his Houston poker room? Anyway, same difference. When people commented on how terrible this was, he just laughed it off. "You know how it is. You get arrested, charged with felony organized crime, plead down to a misdemeanor and pay a fine. You're free, lawyers all around get their fees, state gets its piece of the action. Its built into the business model as a cost of doing business. Life goes on."

[zoid]

Originally Posted by GreenHell

Get a good criminal defense attorney. This stuff about "ending up in jail" is a bit alarmist or an indication of lackluster council. I used to deal to a bookie in a weekly poker tournament. Once he came in and lamented getting busted. . . or was that his Houston poker room? Anyway, same difference. When people commented on how terrible this was, he just laughed it off. "You know how it is. You get arrested, charged with felony organized crime, plead down to a misdemeanor and pay a fine. You're free, lawyers all around get their fees, state gets its piece of the action. Its built into the business model as a cost of doing business. Life goes on."

I personally know 2 people who did 3 and 5 years respectively.
It's not a joke.

[Tom Tildrum]

Originally Posted by GreenHell

Get a good criminal defense attorney. This stuff about "ending up in jail" is a bit alarmist or an indication of lackluster council. I used to deal to a bookie in a weekly poker tournament. Once he came in and lamented getting busted. . . or was that his Houston poker room?

"If you're ever in Houston,
Well, you better do right;
You better not gamble,
And you better not fight."

-- The Midnight Special

[Idle Thoughts]

All right, this thread initially started out joking, but it seems to fast becoming less than that. Please remember that it's against the rules to discuss actual ways to get around the law and discuss illegal activity.

[Covered_In_Bees!]

Leave it to the degenerates to defile my prospective new profession with gambling. Well I never!

[kayaker]

I'm taking 5 to 2 the thread gets closed during the next 72 hours.

[China Guy]

I worked with a couple of equity derivative traders that kinda went back and forth between their derivative trading and bookie jobs. Seriously. Wednesdays and Saturdays was horse racing in Hong Kong. It was pretty common to overhear "mate, it's a race day, you know that. Either trade or get off the phone."

The entire operation got shut down after the 1997 Asian crisis. I ran into one of the traders a couple years after that, and he was back to being a full time bookie. A good bookie nd a good trader had an awful lot in common

[Clothahump]

Wanna be a bookie? Start by getting a library card and go from there.

[Covered_In_Bees!]

Equity derivative trader? That is definitely going on the resumé now. I have a new question though, say I'm in a local "sports themed watering hole" and I'm looking to "take bets" on some "action" how would I advertise my trade?

"Psst, hey buddy, need some derivatives traded?" just doesn't sound right.

[Airman Doors, USAF]

Start trading in pork bellies and frozen concentrated orange juice. Just don't hire anybody named Beeks and you'll be all set.

[Chronos]

Equity, equinity, close enough.

[Yeticus Rex]

Here's a book about a broke woman who became an expert in off-shore sports betting from a bookies' point of view.

[Taomist]

/random

I worked for a bookie, once upon a time. I had no IDEA the owner of the restaurant I worked at, which stayed open to certain folk LONG after it was closed, was a bookie, but I was young and naive. All I knew was that he constantly got calls for him during the day, and they never ever wanted to leave a message. Finally one of my co-workers tipped me off; it made so much more sense after that. :P

[whitetho]

Originally Posted by Covered_In_Bees!

Most importantly, how do bookies actually do what they do? That is, how do they calculate the odds that they assign each team/player/organization?

This is from memory, but an article I read at least 20 years ago about a major Las Vegas oddsmaker said he had a system for "test-marketing" the odds before they were released to the general public. He had a small select group of regulars that were allowed to place bets based on an initial spread. If this sophisticated group broke too heavily to one side he would adjust the odds before the general release.

[Cicero]

Covered in Bees,

I'm assuming you are asking a serious question, so in that context I'll give a (semi) serious answer.

Firstly, I'm talking from Australia where registered bookmakers are legal.

Secondly, bookmaking has changed dramatically in the last 100 years. Well make that even the last 30 years.

Basically, originally it was all about percentages. If a bookie bets to 100%, no matter what horse wins he breaks square. Of course he wants to win so he often bets far more than 100%.. And a real bookmaker, as opposed to a book keeper, may take a set against a horse so that if it loses he wins a hell of a lot. He bets better odds than the others. Of course if the horse wins....

All that aside, bookmaking is not a stand alone operation. You need staff on a race day, you'll need to subscribe to form analysts and there are also a lot of costs aside from that. If you have a good (winning) day your staff expect a sling. If you lose the still expect a smaller sling.

And there is a lot of competition from off course bookmakers and the giddy goat.