How to deal with our parents and our kids?

[Incubus]

I have a dilemma. My wife's family is very involved in our lives (in a good way). They help us out with little things, come to visit, give us space when we need it, in short I have the PERFECT in-laws. I absolutely love them. Not surprisingly, because I like them so much, and show so much consideration and respect, they absolutely love me back

My family is not so great, sadly. My mom is the kind of moms that loves to have people visit, but always has an excuse on why she can't come visit us. This really bothers my wife, and she often asks "Doesn't your mom care about how you are doing? Why doesn't she visit/call you? Why does everyone have to come to her house, on her terms for special occasions?". Back when I lived in tiny apartments, this wasn't an issue, but now that I am married and living in a house, it bugs me...a lot!

Whats worse is that she's so used to getting her way that confronting her about it is met with a lot of resistance. I realized I didn't press the issue for so long because she's the kind of person that will convince you that you are crazy and refuse to acknolege or comprimise on anything you feel. Its made me feel very torn and I've acted in very irrational ways (going back and forth from being furious at her to vehemently defending/justifying everything she says and does).

Whats gotten me more confrontational is the thought that in a year or two, we will be having kids...and while my wife's family will be super involved, I don't know how involved my family will be. My wife has said that she's not sure how comfortable she will be with our kids being around my family, because she sees the lack of involvement she has in my life (and my brother's) and while I should probably agree with her, it breaks my heart to think that our kid is not going to have a relationship with my side of her family

When I was a kid my dad really didn't like my mom's family; he used to make fun of them and avoid hanging out with them at all costs, yet I still got to see both my mom and my dad's family which really meant a lot to me. I'm trying to get my mom to be more involved in our lives but its a real uphill battle, and seeing how wonderful my in laws are just makes me more upset about the whole thing...is there any positive endgame to all of this?

[CairoCarol]

Originally Posted by Incubus

My wife has said that she's not sure how comfortable she will be with our kids being around my family, because she sees the lack of involvement she has in my life (and my brother's)

Your wife is not making sense. "I don't think your mother is involved enough in your life, so let's set a better example for our children by making sure they aren't allowed to spend any time with her"?

I sympathize a lot with your problems, which bear a little resemblance to some of the issues I've had in my own extended family. However, I am blessed with a wonderfully supportive husband who has always encouraged my efforts to normalize relations with my mother. It's tough enough having a difficult relationship with a parent without having a spouse who won't work with you to make the best of the situation. In your shoes, I'd probably have a heart-to-heart, mutually respectful discussion with your wife to help her understand that even though she means to help, her attitude is making the situation worse for you.

It is also hard to predict (unless your mother is already a grandmother) what she will be like once there are grandkids in the picture. I think my mother visited us twice in 16 years when we didn't have kids. Following the birth of her grandchild she has visited 5 times in 13 years, despite the fact it's far harder for her to travel now than it was then, due to advancing age and infirmity.

[Nava]

My nuclear family were "the out of towners", so it was always us who visited with the rest; also, I'm the Spanish version of a "three culture child", in Spanish terms it's as if one side was from Texas, the other from Boston and we lived in Alabama - many customs, many things which people take completely for granted, were different in all three places. I second what CairoCarol's said about how your mother may become more "proactive" once there is a grandkid to coo at, but in any case, it's not going to hurt your kids to know that one side of the family does things one way and the other side does them in a different way; it's a good start to knowing that people do things in different ways and that this is OK so long as nobody gets hurt.

[sandra_nz]

Whilst I sympathise with your situation, I think your wife needs to understand and accept that different families operate in different ways. She sounds quite judgemental and I wonder how much of a problem you had with your family dynamics before she started comparing them to hers?

I have seen this from my sister-in-law, where her family are all very much involved in each other's lives. By comparison, our family is spread from New Zealand to Australia to England, and we rarely call each other. Yes, our family may seem less caring than hers, but the reality is that her family is constantly having dramas where someone isn't talking to someone else, and some other poor sod is tasked with playing peacemaker. Whilst our family may not seem close, whenever support has been needed (and there have been about three emergency/medical situations in the past five years), everyone has immediately rallied together.

Of course, if you want to change the nature of your relationship with your mother, that's up to you. But you need to be aware that it's going to be a tough battle and her behaviours are well ingrained.

For the record, my mother has no relationship with her three brothers so my brothers and I never knew them or their families. We were much closer to my parents network of friends than to their actual siblings, and we turned out just fine.

[Eliahna]

Unless there's more to it (and when isn't there?) then your wife sounds like she's being unreasonable about this. Your children will not be harmed by having a slightly distant relationship with their grandparents. It's far worse to exclude the grandparents entirely. Also, your parents behaviour may change with grandchildren to inspire them to be in more regular contact.

[Manda JO]

I think that you and your wife are assigning intentions to your mom's behavior based on what that same behavior would mean if her family did it. My mom is not a huge one for visiting or calling, but she thinks of it as "giving them space", and she adopted the behavior at least in part because her own mother was too involved. As SandraNZ points out, families that are very close can be really supportive, but they can be stiffling as well: what if one of your kids turns out to be more like your mom than like any of her family, or otherwise just really, really different from your wife's family? Having another side of the family to click with could be everything.

[Novelty Bobble]

Originally Posted by sandra_nz

Whilst I sympathise with your situation, I think your wife needs to understand and accept that different families operate in different ways. She sounds quite judgemental and I wonder how much of a problem you had with your family dynamics before she started comparing them to hers?

I have seen this from my sister-in-law, where her family are all very much involved in each other's lives. By comparison, our family is spread from New Zealand to Australia to England, and we rarely call each other. Yes, our family may seem less caring than hers, but the reality is that her family is constantly having dramas where someone isn't talking to someone else, and some other poor sod is tasked with playing peacemaker. Whilst our family may not seem close, whenever support has been needed (and there have been about three emergency/medical situations in the past five years), everyone has immediately rallied together.

I'll chime in and say that this describes my family as well. We are very "low drama"
We are all spread-out and may not speak on the phone for months at a time and rarely get together. Yet we all get on brilliantly when we do. To have an "in your pocket" relationship would do my head in.
Still, we all know that we are there for each other when the shit really hits the fan.

So as has been said, different families work in different ways and you can't seriously expect your side to conform exactly to your wishes, that's going to cause no end of resentment.

I'd suggest that, as long as your side aren't actively destructive, you need to accept it. Extend invitations, make it clear that you would welcome visits and then let it go. Que sera and all that. Consider yourself massively fortunate in having even one set of in-laws that match your preferences exactly.

[Ferret Herder]

Originally Posted by Novelty Bobble

I'll chime in and say that this describes my family as well. We are very "low drama"
We are all spread-out and may not speak on the phone for months at a time and rarely get together. Yet we all get on brilliantly when we do. To have an "in your pocket" relationship would do my head in.
Still, we all know that we are there for each other when the shit really hits the fan.

Hey, I didn't know my sister posted here!

It's the same with my family. Meanwhile, my husband's family is very much the "must spend all holidays together in one big group, must communicate constantly, must call Father and Mother lots" type, and it drives my husband crazy.

[carlotta]

It's not exactly clear to me from your post what you want your mom to do that she doesn't do.

Visit you at your house, is that it? Not trying to sound snarky, just trying to get it.

Why doesn't she like to visit you at your house, do you know? Does she not like to visit anyone? Are there financial issues involved in traveling? Does she live farther away than your wife's family?

One thing I've learned reading the Dope is people have some really funny issues. Some people have a lot of anxiety issues around food, or their own beds. I had no idea until the Straight Dope that there are people that leave work to go home to poop.

Would it be so terrible to accept your mom on her own terms?

I was always very puzzled that my mother-in-law didn't visit my husband when he was in the hospital after a heart attack. She came to visit as soon as he came home though. It clearly didn't bother him and I know her to be a truly wonderful loving person, so I didn't hold it against her, just was puzzled.

I came to find out, years later, that everyone she ever visited in the hospital had died, including her own twin sister at the age of 5. She was terrified that if she visited her son in the hospital he would die.

People are funny, but we are usually better off by trying to be in loving relationships with them anyway.

[Nava]

Originally Posted by sandra_nz

I wonder how much of a problem you had with your family dynamics before she started comparing them to hers?

My brother didn't just marry his wife, he married completely into her family; this has changed somewhat with the arrival of The Nephews. A few months back, Bro was going on and on about how his wife loves her aunt so much and they talk on the phone every day, not like our family, yadda yadda, and at one point he says "that's what a normal family is like!" I finally lost it and asked "so how often does she speak with her other six aunts and uncles?"



One of my mother's favorite rants is on how "you [Mylastname] are so antisocial, you never call each other, never see each other, not like my family!" "So when was the last time you spoke with any of your cousins? At the last funeral? Well, at least us antisocial Mylastnames see each other for weddings, baptisms, first communions, in the spring to have fresh asparagus, the January 4th lunch and we recognize each other and say 'hi' on the street..."


Just don't let this become a "your side/my side" perma-rant. They're both "our" family now.

[Vihaga]

Originally Posted by CairoCarol

It is also hard to predict (unless your mother is already a grandmother) what she will be like once there are grandkids in the picture. I think my mother visited us twice in 16 years when we didn't have kids. Following the birth of her grandchild she has visited 5 times in 13 years, despite the fact it's far harder for her to travel now than it was then, due to advancing age and infirmity.

This could well happen. My parents have spent more time visiting my house in the ten weeks since I had a baby than they did in the ten YEARS my husband and I lived together before she was born. I'm not even kidding.

Even if prospective grandma doesn't step it up, it's not the end of the world for kids to be closer to one set of grandparents than the other; I don't see why your wife would be uncomfortable with the kids having a relationship with your mother at all just because the relationship won't be as close. I'd bet most families end up being closer to one set of grandparents than the other due to geography, personalities, or other reasons. It doesn't need to be a huge deal.

[WhyNot]

I think it's wonderful that you've found a wife with a family who communicates their love and support in a way that you can hear and feel it. It sounds as if you don't hear or feel it from your own mom much - which is not the same thing as saying she doesn't love you. It's very possible that she loves you to the ends of the earth, but she says and shows it in ways you don't immediately click with or notice. (Do I really need to include a link to the Languages of Love book? It applies to more than romantic love.)

But for myriad reasons, many of which have already been given, I think you need to stop trying to change your mother. Fundamentally changing someone else just doesn't work. Helping someone make changes when they want to make changes is hard enough; forcing them to make changes when they're happy with the status quo is about as likely to work as converting a wind turbine into a haystack with a plastic spork.

If company helps, then add me to the chorus of "my family is just like that". I talk to my dad twice a year, if that. I email with my stepmom maybe a dozen times a year. I actually see them once every two or three years. I only have a vague idea of what's happening with my (step)brothers because of Facebook, and I still haven't met some of my nieces yet. But I love them like crazy, and history has shown that when the shit hits the fan, they are so very much there for me and vice-versa. It's just not in our natures to have a daily or even weekly relationship.

Shit...the only people I talk to daily are my SO and you guys...

[Corcaigh]

Originally Posted by Incubus

My family is not so great, sadly. My mom is the kind of moms that loves to have people visit, but always has an excuse on why she can't come visit us.

Whats worse is that she's so used to getting her way that confronting her about it is met with a lot of resistance. I realized I didn't press the issue for so long because she's the kind of person that will convince you that you are crazy and refuse to acknowledge or compromise on anything you feel.

This sounds very like my mother, who has Histrionic/Narcissistic Personality Disorder

The NPD behaviours make her want to be the centre of attention and in control of every situation. She also wants to be praised non-stop for every breath she takes.

There isn't really IME anything you can do about it, other than either cutting her out of your life completely, or playing along with her neuroses. The former will likely see you bad mouthed to the world and his wife for ruining her life and not speaking to her any more "and I have no idea why!! I was a good mother!!!", the latter will make you as miserable as hell having to jump through her hoops on her command.

[overlyverbose]

Is it possible that it's physically difficult or stressful for your mom to visit and she's just not admitting it?

My mom hasn't visited our house in over a year. Much of that is because she probably feels in the way - her version of a "vacation" is to do the exact same thing she does at home (sit in a chair and sew), only in a different location. Which irritates me because my kids are young and extremely active, she is actually is a bit in the way - all of us are constantly moving while she's sitting on her bum and continuously turned the volume on the TV up because we're "too loud."

And the activity bothers her, so she takes it out on me and my husband. Which leads me to reason number two - while she's not old (she's 66), she doesn't take good care of herself, so she's probably not in good shape. Not only can't she handle the mental stress of a somewhat chaotic household, the act of traveling makes her nervous and tired. It's not worth it to her anymore, especially when we're willing to come to her.

My take on it is that you'll just have to get over it and accept it. Visit her when it's convenient for you or make time when you can if it's almost never convenient for you.

[purplehorseshoe]

You can't change other people. You can't make or get other people to do what you want. The only positive endgame for the OP is to adjust expectations to reality.

[delphica]

I saw that you said she prefers to have you come visit her -- separating the issue of the fact you would like her to visit you sometimes -- how are the actual visits to your mom's house? Are they nice? Pleasant? Is it far away and the actual travel to your mom's is a hardship for you?

I'm trying to figure out if the imbalance bothers you merely because it is imbalanced, or if the visits themselves to see your mother are problematic.

[Incubus]

My mom works part-time, and she is really active in the Bluegrass music scene. She goes to music festivals frequently, and we've occasionally went to hear her band play. She has the time and energy to pursue her hobby, but when it comes down to visiting someone else she is 'too tired'. When I suggested maybe she mix it up/compromise and occasionally spend Mother's Day (which she always goes to a music festival) with us, so we can have all the moms hang out together, she replied, "But what will I tell my bandmates? I can't just ditch them like that!"

When I told my wife, she was pretty angry about my mom's response. It just seems like her fun time is simply more important than her family, unless its convenient for her. Its not a matter of physically being unable to go places, because she drives 3+ hours away to play in gigs and stuff all the time. Its just that she seems to want to do everything on her terms- there is no compromise. Everything has to revolve around what she wants/her convenience.

I guess I was kind of numb to it for a long time; like I said, for many years I lived in a tiny apartment and it wasn't really possible to host stuff. But now that I live in a house its really noticible how unwilling she is to comprmise and it sucks for me because it really bugs the hell out of me. All events always have to be done at her house- that means my uncle has to drive my 86 year old grandfather down to my mom's (an hour away) because god forbid they just do it at my grandfather's house (where my uncle lives and takes care of him) so that he can just chill out in an easy chair instead of bear an uncomfortable car ride.

Back during Thanksgiving we wanted my mom to join us, but she always goes to her cousin's, and the idea of visiting her recently-married son in his recently renovated house to eat a Thanksgiving meal that his wife cooked in lieu of writing grad school papers was out of the question. When I pressed the issue, again it was met with a comment to the effect of "Well I wouldn't want my cousin to not see me!"

I kind of feel like I'm a low priority in her life because she just assumes I'm going to come to her for important events so why does she have to put any effort into it? I sacrifice my own time to spend with her, and since my parents have been divorced for years its ALWAYS been a comprmise for me over who to see- I always try to alternate holidays with either family or visit both in the same year, but I don't just blow off seeing her 100% because someone else is more important.

So this has been bugging me for some time, and moving into a nice big house and having such caring, considerate in-laws made me more upset about it, because (and I know I shouldn't compare, but I do...) when I see how much of a priority my wife's family makes to support us and be a part of our lives, it reminds me of how little of a priority my mom makes

[elbows]

Purplehorseshoe nailed it, in my opinion.

You cannot force relationship, and you are setting yourself up for frustration and failure when you expect her to be other than as she is. What you can do, is adjust your expectations. For whatever reasons, she currently prioritizes her other interests above visiting with family. It's not a hanging offense. She's not doing anything actively harmful to you, beyond not behaving as you would wish. Again, what you can do is recognize that's how she is. She still loves you all, I'm sure, and you can choose to still love her. What you can't do is expect to shape her behaviour.

Just because she's this way, just now, doesn't mean she will be forever. People have life changing, sometimes traumatic, epiphanies everyday. She could get her fill, of what she's currently enjoying, any day, for all we know.

Having an open heart, in the face of having been hurt or disappointed is absolutely a choice. In my opinion one of the most important decisions people make, in life.

[shiftless]

Originally Posted by Incubus

When I told my wife, she was pretty angry about my mom's response. It just seems like her fun time is simply more important than her family, unless its convenient for her. Its not a matter of physically being unable to go places, because she drives 3+ hours away to play in gigs and stuff all the time. Its just that she seems to want to do everything on her terms- there is no compromise. Everything has to revolve around what she wants/her convenience.

I guess your wife would be angry at me and my whole extended family then. I sure hope neither of my sons marries someone who expects me to drop everything whenever they want me to do something because she will be very, very, very unhappy. I'm sure I'm missing something here but how can she be angry that your mom didn't appear when summoned?

It looks to me like your mom is an active person who has raised her children and now expects some free time for herself. I say good for her. Your in-laws would drive me crazy and your wife's judgement of how others should live their lives would get a shrug and a laugh from the shiftless family.

[Living Well Is Best Revenge]

Your mom sounds pretty normal to me. She has a full life. You should be happy. Your wife sounds like a piece of work by the way.

[drpepper]

I'm afraid I have to agree with most of the responses here. If Mom doesn't want to be a part of "have all the Moms hang out together", I really can't fault her for that; frankly to me that sounds like the last thing I would like to do on Mothers Day. (My ideal Mothers Day is to sleep in, a phone call from the kids, and sit on the deck and read all day).

It's entirely possible that visiting your family at your house just doesn't sound like a comfortable situation for her, and, again, let me emphasize: that's perfectly ok and no one should really be looking askance at that attitude as something that's weird or a deliberate snub.

That doesn't mean that you guys *have to* come to her place at her every request. Keep extending the invitations, keep visiting her on occasions when it works out for you.

Your wife really needs to let go of the judging and feeling slighted simply because your mom isn't like hers when it comes to socializing with the family. I've had the advantages of both very-involved families and less-involved families, and they're both perfectly fine. In the very-involved ones I've seen more ugly situations due to the familiarity breeding contempt type of thing. I've also seen in these situations (unfortunately from women mostly) irritated and snotty attitudes about the in-laws that don't dote as much as the other set, and in my experience I usually find such an attitude entirely unwarranted.

And yes, I get it that your mom seems out of whack with her priorities vis-a-vis the musician friends vs. her son, and insisting on gatherings at her house to the exclusion of all other venues. But I don't think either of these things are really all that egregious, and you (and your wife) should continue to be polite and maintain a decent relationship with her.

[raspberry hunter]

Speaking as someone who has been part of musical groups for much of my life, I would have to say I'd pick the music group any day over Mother's Day with a bunch of mothers. Oh, wait, in fact, I did that this year -- ditched the toddler with daddy and went to perform like I always do Sunday mornings. I don't see why your wife is getting all up in arms about that particular thing. I just don't take Mother's Day that seriously, especially when I'm the mother in question. (Now, if my mom had requested my presence on Mother's Day, that would be different.)

Now, it could be, and the rest of your post seems to imply, that this is part of a pattern of narcissistic and selfish behavior, and that is more what your wife is responding to. And I say the same as the rest of the posters. Visit your mom as much as you visit your in-laws. It's not fair to cut her out of your kid's life unless you really are (for example) afraid that she will be a dysfunctional presence in the kid's life. If your mom is as you say, then the kid will see your mom half as much as your in-laws do, and that will take care of the problem.

I do feel for you -- I have a similar situation in which my in-laws are totally and completely awesome and my own mom always has to have things her own way. (Other than that, she's a good mom, though, and doesn't have the precise issues yours does.) The Little One probably sees my mom more than my mother-in-law, but already at two I think she prefers my mother-in-law. Your kid will make his or her own decisions about things.

ETA: the funny thing is, it's my in-laws who are the "hands-off" type, and my family that is so close as to be overwhelming. So sort of opposite of the OP. But yeah, my husband really doesn't get the culture, although after all these years he understands that this is the way it is...

[Incubus]

I appreciate everyone's opinions on the matter. It definitely gives me perspective. What bothers my wife is that my mom can be extremely manipulative, and she is upset my mom expects me to make accomodations for her but she's not willing to make the same- everything revolves around what my mom wants on her timetable.

I know that trying to get my mom to change may be an exercise in futility, but I want to at least feel I am trying to do everything on my end. If I never make time to visit her I cant really complain if shes not willing to reciprocate, but if I am putting her ahead of my hobbies and she isnt its a problem.

My in laws are very sweet and even though they are close, they are not drama queens in the slightest- they see each other frequently but get along. Seeing how involved and kind they are to me makes me wish I could have that from my family. Maybe its an unrealistic expectation, but if I dont at least try i'll never know.

[elbows]

if shes not willing to reciprocate, but if I am putting her ahead of my hobbies and she isnt its a problem.

A visit should be like a gift. Freely given, with no strings attached. Your problems arise because you misguidedly believe that your behaviour obligates her, in some way, to reciprocate. It doesn't.

You visit her, as often as suits you, because of who you are. Period.

And she visits you, or fails to, because of whom she is, not because she's not holding up some end of your imaginary bargain of reciprocity.

Your attempts to, 'change', her, are thinly disguised attempts to control her behaviour towards you. As though she owes you this because you do that. Or she needs to keep up with the inlaws. That's nonsense.

While you're engaged in attempting to 'change' her, make her feel obligated to 'measure up' to the other grand parents, and to 'reciprocate' for your actions, you might be wise to consider where you learned your manipulation skills.

[Bob Ducca]

Originally Posted by Incubus

My in laws are very sweet and even though they are close, they are not drama queens in the slightest- they see each other frequently but get along. Seeing how involved and kind they are to me makes me wish I could have that from my family. Maybe its an unrealistic expectation, but if I dont at least try i'll never know.

Yeah, your in-laws sound like a real treat.

You say that your wife feels that your Mom is manipulative (and you seem to agree with her) but who is the one trying to use future grandchildren as pawns here?

[MsRobyn]

Originally Posted by Bob Ducca

Yeah, your in-laws sound like a real treat.

You say that your wife feels that your Mom is manipulative (and you seem to agree with her) but who is the one trying to use future grandchildren as pawns here?

Grandchildren are pawns no matter what. No grandparent wants to lose access to their grandkids and most parents know that. So the grandkids wind up being the lubricant in what can be an otherwise contentious relationship between parents and children.

My situation is similar to the OP's. My in-laws and I get along great, but my mother is extremely manipulative, self-centered, and her ideas of right and wrong are a bit flexible. (It's why I live here and not there.) After years of schlepping down to Texas in the middle of the summer so we could hang out at their house and watch TV all day, I finally got them to come up here, but I had to be sneaky about it.

It may just be that your future kids will have a closer relationship to your wife's family as they grow up. That's what we've got and it works for us. The sprog sees my parents a few times a year, Skypes at least once a week, and he calls them on his own volition, so there is a relationship there. It's just not geographically close. (And I'm OK with that, because part of her moral flexibility is that she has no problems using him to manipulate me and lay guilt trips on me and Airman, and Skype and phone calls are easy to monitor and intervene.)

I wouldn't even worry about it until you do have kids, then see how it shakes itself out. It may be that you're assuming behavior on your mother now that she won't have when she has a grandchild.

[Dangerosa]

Families are different.

Growing up I had my mother's parents - who were very "grandma and grandpa" - they played with us and took us places and bought us Christmas presents we liked. Grandma always had cookies. There were games. They could be counted on to babysit. And we had my father's parents - who we visited, dressed up, sat on the sofa, and read books while the grownups talked. Christmas presents were exercises in "I have no idea who my grandchildren are" She told my mother while my mother was in the hospital recovering from my birth "I've raised my kids, don't expect me to babysit."

Obviously, I have fond memories of one set and - well, I do have some fond memories of the other side, but not nearly as many.

In my own kid's cases, my mother is over all the time - taking them places, babysitting. She drags them up to her house. My husband's mother is more into her own things - she isn't selfish, and she'd like to see more of them, but she sort of missed her window. She finds teenagers far more interesting than babies, but teenagers frankly aren't that interested in forming relationships with old women.

And there is my husband's father - whose relationship with the kids is a once or twice a year few hours.

When you have kids, set boundaries on all sides. Your in laws may turn out to be TOO involved (my mother can be and we have to call her back with 'no, we actually have plans'). Don't force people into relationships they don't want - your parents relationship may be one where they give a Christmas gift that shows they don't know your kids. And...your kids will survive.

[elbows]

Grandchildren are pawns no matter what.

While this may be true in your world, I would say it's not, in the larger world. Certainly not, 'no matter what'. There are a goodly number of healthy families who do not do such things, refusing to participate in any way, should it rear it's ugly head.

Cynicism and frothy rhetoric, but not reality.

[delphica]

Originally Posted by elbows

While this may be true in your world, I would say it's not, in the larger world. Certainly not, 'no matter what'. There are a goodly number of healthy families who do not do such things, refusing to participate in any way, should it rear it's ugly head.

Cynicism and frothy rhetoric, but not reality.

I agree that "pawns" is a flippant-at-best, obnoxious-at-worst way to put it, but kids ARE dynamics-changers. I think this is what other posters are getting at. It's up to the adults to make sure that this role is positive, happy and productive and to resist any temptation to make it manipulative or divisive.

[phreesh]

My inlaws are local and see the grandkids weekly. My parents live hours away and see the grandkids maybe twice a year. But they see them for a week at a time. They rarely visit us, but they are great hosts and we enjoy the visits.

Perhaps you could see visiting your mom as an annual thing where you get to see her on her own terms and she gets to see her grandkids. Maybe it would be nicer if she was more interesting in you and your family, but I would try not to hold it against her. And to expect her to change at this age is unrealstic. Take her as she is and work around her issues. Anything else is a recipe for unhappiness.

[perfectparanoia]

Sorry, if she is in a band and they are performing, she really can't ditch them. However, she could offer up alternative dates for you (this is what I do when I am previously committed).

There also could be some family politics going on that she is trying to shield you and your wife from.

Dealing with in-laws and holidays is always difficult. The way we work it is that we invite the people we would like to celebrate with and if they don't come, not my problem. If they invite me, I will make an effort to be there but I will not cancel prior plans.

Why not have your mom come to your place 'just because' on the weekend after mother's day? If the drive isn't that far and she still doesn't want to come (even after suggesting a few dates) then she probably has a problem with your wife and it is her problem so she just won't get to see you.

Remember, the only person's behaviour that you can control is your own. You can't make your mother get along with your wife or vice versa. All you can do is try to make it easier for both of them (but your wife comes first, of course).

[Cat Whisperer]

Originally Posted by purplehorseshoe

You can't change other people. You can't make or get other people to do what you want. The only positive endgame for the OP is to adjust expectations to reality.

This is such good advice I wanted to point it out again.

Originally Posted by Incubus

<snip>
When I told my wife, she was pretty angry about my mom's response. It just seems like her fun time is simply more important than her family, unless its convenient for her. Its not a matter of physically being unable to go places, because she drives 3+ hours away to play in gigs and stuff all the time. Its just that she seems to want to do everything on her terms- there is no compromise. Everything has to revolve around what she wants/her convenience.

I guess I was kind of numb to it for a long time; like I said, for many years I lived in a tiny apartment and it wasn't really possible to host stuff. But now that I live in a house its really noticible how unwilling she is to comprmise and it sucks for me because it really bugs the hell out of me.

Were you numb to it, or did it just not bother you? One thing that kind of strikes me is that this is bothering you a lot more now that your wife is pointing it out to you and telling you how much it bothers you. In all fairness, your mom doesn't sound like she's the most dedicated mom in the world, but she doesn't sound terrible, either. The response to someone who wants a relationship on their terms is to set your own boundaries with them - that way no one feels like they're getting taken advantage of.

Originally Posted by Incubus

<snip>
I know that trying to get my mom to change may be an exercise in futility, but I want to at least feel I am trying to do everything on my end. If I never make time to visit her I cant really complain if shes not willing to reciprocate, but if I am putting her ahead of my hobbies and she isnt its a problem.

My in laws are very sweet and even though they are close, they are not drama queens in the slightest- they see each other frequently but get along. Seeing how involved and kind they are to me makes me wish I could have that from my family. Maybe its an unrealistic expectation, but if I dont at least try i'll never know.

Not "may be" - "will be." I understand how sad it can be to see how much better a parent could have been, but she is who she is - you can take her as she is and do what you can to set your own boundaries with her, or you can agonize over why she isn't different - guess which one will make you happier in the long run.

[Incubus]

Good points. Right now I am trying to compromise with my mom. I know that music is a big commitment but all I really ask is that she be flexible some of the time. My parents divorced when I was young, and holidays were split between families/parents. My dad's family loved having me over, but understood that I was spending half my holidays with my mom. My mom, in contrast, didnt think it was fair I spent half my time with my dad's family. One year I screwed up and accidentally went to my dad"s family two Thanksgivings in a row, and my mom raised hell about it. She wanted me to be a part of her Thanksgiving all the time. But now that we are hosting and want her to come to us, she's not willing to change her routine, even though i've spent my adulthood compromising with others, and sacrificing my own wants to put other people first. I dont feel its unreasonable that i'd like my mom to do the same 1% of the time.

You can't change people. Maybe not. But people will definitely not change if they are unaware or in denial about how their behavior affects people. My dad's family had frequent get togethers, but much of the time I'd never know. I'd call and ask, but often I was still the last to find out. When I would come over, they would make remarks about how I never seemed to visit anymore So I had a talk with my dad's family and told them I always feel out of the loop, and I'm seldom part of the discussion so often dont even know anything is going on. What did they do? They compromised, called/texted/emailed more often, and I reciprocated. When making it to xmas stsrted becoming more difficult I proposed the possibility of simply getting together the weekend before. My other married cousins were in agreement; last xmas was awesome because my ENTIRE extended family was finally able to make it since nobody had any conflicts. It was win-win and I was praised for my suggestion.

It may be true my mom may decide to change on her own once I have kids, or she'll continue to put her music ahead of her family. Either way I want my future kids to have a healthy and positive relationship with her, and I want to do everything on my end to try to get her to see where i'm coming from.

[Voyager]

When my kids were little, my wife's family was 50 miles away and mine was across the country. So we were a lot more involved with my in-laws, and it worked out fine.
I assume that neither set is far away.
I think the problem will work itself out. First, your parents may get a lot more interested in grandchildren. Second, a lot of adults feel kids should visit them. When you have kids, and it becomes a big pain, this might change.
If it doesn't, visit them when it is convenient, and let them know they are always welcome to visit you. I certainly see no reason to keep your kid away just for the sin of them not being as interested as your wife would like. And thank your lucky stars that both families don't want to be involved all the time and fight about who gets to see the kid more.

[lavenderviolet]

Originally Posted by Bob Ducca

Yeah, your in-laws sound like a real treat.

To be honest, that was my reaction too. If the kids should be kept away from anyone, I think it should be the side of the family that is enabling a child molester. God help your kids if Grandma decides it's cool if the molester wants to spend hours locked in a room with your kids too.

[elbows]

I want to do everything on my end to try to get her to see where i'm coming from.

This part is funny, because it's not that she doesn't see where you're coming from, it's that you don't see where's she's coming from. The harder you push, it seems to me, the less likely she is to respond as you wish. She will not desire it as long as you are trying to force it upon her, I predict.

Sooner or later, we all have to learn, you cannot push a rope! Good Luck to you!

[delphica]

This is going to be one of those Tough Love posts, because you really do sound like you are respectfully and thoughtfully listening to the people who have posted advice ... but your most recent post makes me think you are maybe not truly understanding the situation.

Originally Posted by Incubus

You can't change people. Maybe not. But people will definitely not change if they are unaware or in denial about how their behavior affects people. My dad's family had frequent get togethers, but much of the time I'd never know. I'd call and ask, but often I was still the last to find out. When I would come over, they would make remarks about how I never seemed to visit anymore So I had a talk with my dad's family and told them I always feel out of the loop, and I'm seldom part of the discussion so often dont even know anything is going on. What did they do? They compromised, called/texted/emailed more often, and I reciprocated. When making it to xmas stsrted becoming more difficult I proposed the possibility of simply getting together the weekend before. My other married cousins were in agreement; last xmas was awesome because my ENTIRE extended family was finally able to make it since nobody had any conflicts. It was win-win and I was praised for my suggestion.

What are you describing is not exactly a compromise, at the very least not a compromise that relates to your situation with your mother. You and your cousins both wanted the same thing -- to see each other more. What you collectively needed to do (and congrats for taking initiative and making a good suggestion!) was figure out better logistics for making that happen.

With your mom, it is possible that hitting upon better logistics could help -- who knows, maybe she is secretly nervous about driving alone, and would be more willing to visit your house if you came and picked her up and then drove her home. Sure, it would be less convenient for you in terms of time and travel, but it would satisfy what you are saying you want -- for your mom to spend time in your home. That's just an example, by the way. From what you have said, it seems much more likely is that there is a fundamental difference in what you want -- you want your mom to be more like your in-laws, and she is not.

I agree with you that other people won't know if there is a problem unless you tell them -- openly, candidly, respectfully. I really do hope for you that you can communicate your preferences to your mother in a way that makes her think about finding ways to strengthen your relationship. But like several people have said, you are always going to have the best results changing yourself and your expectations.

[Hello Again]

And Incubus I just want to extend a note of sympathy. The process of realizing that you can't make other people who you want them to be -- or even who you need them to be -- or even to pretend like they give a shit about you by basic, "average" social standards -- is a painful one. It's freeing in the end but it's a long, sad road.

As I said to my dear friend who also has similar sorts of parent problems
it's not that I expect they'll ever change.
It's just that when I think I can't be any more disappointed in them, I'm wrong.

Just think: at least your mother hasn't tried to drunkenly assault your wife. Silver linings.