4 Secret Service Agents decide to fight their terminations.

[aceplace57]

4 disgraced agents have withdrawn their resignations.

I'm glad they decided to fight instead of resigning. The handling of this mess was clumsy. The White House and Obama got some bad press and they used a tank to roll over a few ants. They could have reassigned these agents to some other assignment within Treasury dept and not destroyed their livelihood.

Federal Selective Service offers a lot of protections for Fed workers. There's formal procedures and appeals for firing somebody. If an Agent had a spotless record of employment, then one error might not be enough to fire someone. Perhaps a written warning and suspension for a few weeks?

<shrug> They have a right to fight for their careers. Good luck!
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nati...icle-1.1083029

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012...itute-scandal/

Four former Secret Service agents implicated in the Colombia prostitution scandal last month are challenging their dismissals — saying they’re getting thrown under the bus for behavior long tolerated at the agency, the Washington Post reported.

The agents argue that an unwritten code allowed them to pick up women on the road — and some of the trysts never involved money, according to the report.

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nati...#ixzz1vhVlHcM8

[Tom Tildrum]

I have no knowledge as to whether a single offense of this nature is enough to warrant dismissal, but there's a certain entertainment value in the argument, "You can't fire me for this one offense, and I've done it lots of times!"

[Ravenman]

Originally Posted by aceplace57

They could have reassigned these agents to some other assignment within Treasury dept and not destroyed their livelihood.

The agents could have not done something incredibly stupid and destroyed their own livelihood.

This is the kind of nonsense that I expect out of teenagers who get busted for staying out past curfew: it's not their fault, it's just that mom and dad are being unfair and besides they have stayed out late lots of times before.

Unless they are arguing that they literally did not do what they are accused of doing, I have zero time for their childish claims that they should not be held to account for what they did.

[Terr]

Originally Posted by Ravenman

Unless they are arguing that they literally did not do what they are accused of doing, I have zero time for their childish claims that they should not be held to account for what they did.

Well, it would be nice to see their employment contract. Does it have a "moral turpitude" clause?

[steronz]

Originally Posted by Terr

Well, it would be nice to see their employment contract. Does it have a "moral turpitude" clause?

We've already done this here. Their security clearances require them to report all contact with foreign nationals beyond normal social interactions. Furthermore, sleeping with prostitutes would likely, but not necessarily, be cause for denying them clearances, if the clearing agency decides that such behavior could expose the agents to blackmail.

I'm sure their employment contract requires them to be able to obtain and hold their security clearance. In jobs like that, losing a clearance almost always leads to loss of employment.

When they resigned, they saved the government time and money. This is BS.

I will agree that they're probably being thrown under the bus for behavior that's long been tolerated. That doesn't make me feel any more sorry for them. They should have known better.

[gunnergoz]

What galls me about this is that from the beginning it smelled of being a problem of culture within the organization, especially once it was revealed that two supervisors with 42 years combined experience were among those terminated. Things don't just happen in organizations this tightly bound without a lot of people knowing about it, and invariably all the way up the chain to the very top. It is either tolerated or encouraged but clearly not discouraged or forbidden. To not have the heads rolling from the top down is what bothers me most. Not that the President knew, but surely some of his most senior professionals in Presidential protection must have known some of this has been going on for a long, long time. And nothing has been done about it until the cover was blown, so to speak.

[AK84]

These are the guys who were sacked for ungentlemanly behaviour? They were dismissed for making off without payment?

[rbroome]

Originally Posted by aceplace57

4 disgraced agents have withdrawn their resignations.

I'm glad they decided to fight instead of resigning. The handling of this mess was clumsy. The White House and Obama got some bad press and they used a tank to roll over a few ants. They could have reassigned these agents to some other assignment within Treasury dept and not destroyed their livelihood.

Federal Selective Service offers a lot of protections for Fed workers. There's formal procedures and appeals for firing somebody. If an Agent had a spotless record of employment, then one error might not be enough to fire someone. Perhaps a written warning and suspension for a few weeks?

<shrug> They have a right to fight for their careers. Good luck!
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nati...icle-1.1083029

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012...itute-scandal/

uh, folks. they had their security clearances pulled. A clearance is issued by the Gov't for the convenience of the Gov't and held by the Gov't. They can fight for their jobs, but there are very few jobs in their line of work that don't require a clearance. It is over for them. Perhaps they are hoping that the Gov't will pay them something to make the issue go away.

[billfish678]

I feel sorry for these guys in a way. But still, what they did was so unbelievably stupid and showed such poor judgement that IMO it probably should be a career ender. I mean it ranks right up there with nuclear plant operators snorting coke in the control room or a 747 flight crew having a drinking contest while in flight.

[elbows]

Sorry but if one of your 'brothers' in the code of ongoing questionable conduct, is so sure of himself he thinks he can refuse to pay the girl, you all deserve to tumble, in my opinion, for sheer stupidity.

I should think guarding the president requires some base level of smarts. Every agent involved in this, overtly, and by their own actions, falls far short, on that account, in my opinion.

Go ahead and fight. I think they will deservedly lose.

[aceplace57]

One important consideration is prostitution is legal in that country. Picking up a hooker is no different than ordering an expensive meal. It was all part of a nights entertainment.

I'd feel much differently if the Agents were breaking the law. I'm sure there have been times when Fed employees have hired hookers where it is a considered a crime. But, that's not the situation with this case.

I wonder what would happen if a FBI agent or a state dept employee on vacation visited one of Nevada's legal brothels? No crime is being committed. So why should he be fired?

[billfish678]

Originally Posted by aceplace57

I wonder what would happen if a FBI agent on vacation visited one of Nevada's legal brothels? No crime is being committed. So why should he be fired?

IF he was on VACATION where it was LEGAL and he TOLD his wife about it and didn't CARE if everybody knew it I wouldn't have much of a problem with it. But thats not what went down. And as far as security type stuff, legal isnt the only consideration. Security folks also don't want you doing stuff that could lead you into being blackmailed to do bad things Thats why things like gambling/money problems, drug/alchohol abuse, being homosexual (in the past at least), and visiting prostitutes without the wife knowing are considered for issuing and keeping security clearances. I knew someone with clean record. But they could not get a security clearance because their dad was a MIA pilot in Vietmam. That person was ripe for being blackmailed and therefore could not get a clearance.

[Czarcasm]

Originally Posted by aceplace57

I wonder what would happen if a FBI agent or a state dept employee on vacation visited one of Nevada's legal brothels?

The same damn thing, I would hope.

Originally Posted by aceplace57

No crime is being committed. So why should he be fired?

Situations like these put people in charge of Presidential security in a blackmail position.

[Little Nemo]

Four former Secret Service agents implicated in the Colombia prostitution scandal last month are challenging their dismissals — saying they’re getting thrown under the bus for behavior long tolerated at the agency, the Washington Post reported.

The agents argue that an unwritten code allowed them to pick up women on the road — and some of the trysts never involved money, according to the report.

Speaking from experience, arguing that other people got away with breaking the same rule will never save you. I saw plenty of people try this defense and it never worked. The agency will just say that the decision at your hearing is based solely on whether or not you broke the rules.

[handsomeharry]

I thought that they resigned.
Is there really such a thing as 'withdrawing a resignation" once it is accepted?

[Ravenman]

Originally Posted by aceplace57

One important consideration is prostitution is legal in that country. Picking up a hooker is no different than ordering an expensive meal. It was all part of a nights entertainment.

I'd feel much differently if the Agents were breaking the law. I'm sure there have been times when Fed employees have hired hookers where it is a considered a crime. But, that's not the situation with this case.

Doesn't matter. The ethical standards for Federal employees -- especially those on TDY -- doesn't change because of what is legal in what country. Just because a government worker finds themselves in Amsterdam doesn't mean that Uncle Sam cannot fire them for drug use.

[Surly Chick]

Originally Posted by elbows

Sorry but if one of your 'brothers' in the code of ongoing questionable conduct, is so sure of himself he thinks he can refuse to pay the girl, you all deserve to tumble, in my opinion, for sheer stupidity.

Ninety-five percent of the Secret Service agents I know (and I know quite a few) think so highly of themselves that he undoubtedly felt that the hooker should pay him...

[elbows]

And therein lies the problem. You're so into your own self importance you don't think you have to really pay the girl, you're not fit to guard the president. You tinker with doing the honorable thing, but then after a few days, your puffed up self starts thinking, "Fuck that Shit", and you sue somebody. Still unfit in my opinion.

Some of them didn't have to pay the girls? Or some of them refused and the girls didn't know what to do about it? Thank God one of them had the ovaries to speak up!

[Gatopescado]

To paraphrase Sam Kinison, "These guys should all end up as night managers of a 'Wendys' somewhere".

Fuck them. I hope they lose and are charged court fees. Douch-bags.

[Dangerosa]

They have a right to fight for their careers. I don't think they will or should get them back, and by fighting this, any background check a future employer does is now going to mark them not only as stupid enough to sleep with hookers because "everyone does it" but then sue their employer when they get caught. Plus they'll have the legal bills. Stupid three times.

[Gyrate]

<CT hat on>

Any chance they're being "encouraged" to fight this by the anti-Obama crowd in order to allow them to continue to talk about Obama and prostitutes in the same sentence repeatedly for days on end?

<CT hat off>

[Martin Hyde]

Eh, they're idiots but they're not dumb to fight their termination. Government employees have a lot of official avenues for fighting a termination so I see no foul in them utilizing them. However a lot of them are administrative court type things with administrative law judges who interpret the arcane bureaucratic personnel rules and my understanding is they typically always rule in favor of the government.

[bucketybuck]

Originally Posted by billfish678

I knew someone with clean record. But they could not get a security clearance because their dad was a MIA pilot in Vietmam. That person was ripe for being blackmailed and therefore could not get a clearance.

How does this work, out of idle curiosity? How does having a relative missing decades ago lead to blackmail? People claiming to know where he is?

[billfish678]

Originally Posted by bucketybuck

How does this work, out of idle curiosity? How does having a relative missing decades ago lead to blackmail? People claiming to know where he is?

You answered your own question there. Though I guess blackmail isn't the right word for that sorta thing.

[kayaker]

Will court proceedings be televised? I'd be interested in seeing a "bros before hos" defense in action.

[ralph124c]

I know its kinda stupid to talk about morality..but aren't SS agents supposed to be a bit "better" than the average man on the street? I mean, these guys have a job to do...though I guess with ex-president Bill Clinton posing with porn stars (at Cannes), the US can't get much better!

[Boyo Jim]

Maybe these guys were experimenting with a new security protocol. Instead of throwing themselves between a bullet and the President, they throw a hooker!

[The Second Stone]

One of the prostitutes involved pointed out one of the dangers: while sleeping, all of the officer's notes and electronics could have been compromised. Federal law enforcement officers are not at liberty to fall asleep when their information is not secure. Much less get nekkid, embarrass the service, the country and their spouses.

[DiosaBellissima]

Originally Posted by The Second Stone

One of the prostitutes involved pointed out one of the dangers: while sleeping, all of the officer's notes and electronics could have been compromised. Federal law enforcement officers are not at liberty to fall asleep when their information is not secure. Much less get nekkid, embarrass the service, the country and their spouses.

I'll admit that I don't know terribly much in regard to the details of this scandal, but are you telling me that these guys LITERALLY slept with the hookers? ie: banged them, then fell asleep? Are these guys insane?

[The Second Stone]

It is my recollection that one of the women said that when her customer was asleep she could have done anything she wanted. If this is true, and he had a laptop computer or some such with him, then it would have been a complete lapse of security at a time when ordinary Americans are subject to a cavity search upon detainment or going through an airport.

[bouv]

I read the title as "4 Secret Service Agents decide to fight the Terminators."

That would have been a better thread.

[billfish678]

Cum with me if you want to live (bitch).

[kittenblue]

Originally Posted by billfish678

You answered your own question there. Though I guess blackmail isn't the right word for that sorta thing.

I'm still not understanding why this should be an impediment to his employment.

And I haven't been following this story that closely...how many of these guys were married? Kids?

[billfish678]

Originally Posted by kittenblue

I'm still not understanding why this should be an impediment to his employment.

Okay, this isnt that complicated but let me give it a go.

Imagine it's still the Cold War and the war is still very cold (or would that be hot?). An Air Force pilot goes missing on a mission in Vietnam. Note the keyword MISSING. Is he alive? Is he dead? Did the North Vietamnese capture him alive after his plane crashed? Heck, maybe he went crazy and defected. Nobody knows.

A few years later that pilot's son/daughter/wife/brother/sister/bestest friend/whoever is now working on a military project with classified information. Some evil Russian spy finds out this info (which shouldn't be too hard to find actually). They approach said person and tells them "we have your guy/know where he is. He was captured alive. If you just give us some info we might be able to "free" him."

Seems to me thats about the worst case scenario for somebody possibly revealing secret information baring something even more extreme like a recent kidnapping of a loved one being held for informational ransom.