Is Chivalry Dead?

[Alma]

Originally Posted by Maeganspop

I'll probably still hold doors open for people.

Do you allow women to hold the door for you? I am okay with the door being held open for anybody, but it infuriates me if I'm holding the door open for a man and he refuses to go through. Sometimes I'll get one that grabs the door above my head and stands there. I can't stand there too and have a polite-off, because I don't want to be rude and hold up the line, so I go ahead.

If someone's making an effort to be mannerly, I will smile or nod, even if I think it's unnecessary or condescending, because I was taught to be polite too. It doesn't mean I'm pleased.

[billfish678]

Originally Posted by Marley23

. A woman doesn't need extra help sitting down in a restaurant just because she could theoretically become pregnant, and in any case I presume you would do the same for your grandmother, so...

Perhaps it has to do with the until recently women almost always wore long dresses? A woman in a dress does appear to me to have a bit more to deal with sitting down than a guy in pants.

And if a woman in public ever gives me a ton of shit for holding a door for her she is going to find out how rude I can be (unless of course its my boss or she has a 6.5 foot tall biker boyfriend).

[Lasciel]

Originally Posted by Alma

Do you allow women to hold the door for you? I am okay with the door being held open for anybody, but it infuriates me if I'm holding the door open for a man and he refuses to go through. Sometimes I'll get one that grabs the door above my head and stands there. I can't stand there too and have a polite-off, because I don't want to be rude and hold up the line, so I go ahead.

HATE this so much. Happens all the damn time in the south, and especially when I'm working. Yes, I'm a girl. Yes, I know you're a dude. I know your brains just fell out, because I'm holding the damn door open for you - I'm the MANAGER, it's my JOB. Get the FUCK in the goddamn door so I can get on with the rest of my job.

Same for carrying things for me. I know I look like a delicate flower because I'm pale and tragic and not 200 pounds overweight, and know that I'm tall for a woman, so I look more fragile than I really am. I'm not going to pick up or carry something that I can't manage. You trying to force the pile of books/box/basket/bag out of my arms so you can "help me" is actually making it worse. Have a little faith! Trust the little girl to manage her own damn business!


Anything else is fine. I love being treated like a person. I like being noticed. Opening doors for me is kind, pulling out chairs isn't necessary but is a nice thought, standing up for me is respectful - I don't actually appreciate it, but I'm not going to argue with you about it, and I try to take it as a compliment or sincere gesture. I notice nice manners, and I think it's old-fashioned and sweet.

Actually refusing to let me do something (especially if it's part of my job) because I'm a "little lady" and you're a "real gentleman" pisses me right off. That's not manners or chivalry. That's putting me in my place with a really convenient social disguise, and it's disgusting.

[kayaker]

Maurice? I assume so, yes.

[Der Trihs]

Originally Posted by Alma

Do you allow women to hold the door for you?

I don't think I've ever had a woman do that, except female relatives when I was a kid and carrying something. Then again, I'd just walk though with an absentminded "thanks" so I might well just not remember it.

[Jenaroph]

Originally Posted by scratch llll

Soooo is it demeaning to offer help with a heavy object if the woman or man is less burly than you? Generally women are less burly but if I do see a woman with a mans body type then I probably wouldn't.

Offer help, no, not demeaning. TAKING HEAVY THINGS AWAY from you after you've declined their offer, fuck yes.

I'm 5'7", and while I'm not anything like burly I'm in the habit of lifting weights at the gym 2-3 times a week and am stronger than I look. I've had short, overweight men twice my age try to take stuff away from me over protest because they wouldn't believe li'l old me could handle such a big heavy whatever.

[tumbleddown]

Originally Posted by Maeganspop

I don't know the answer to that question. I guess it would depend on the woman. I don't poll them to see if they feel respected or not.

And right there, that's the clencher. Respect isn't presumptive or assumptive. You don't respect a person by just guessing that what you're doing is useful or meaningful to them, or by making futile gestures that don't actually serve a purpose to them. There's nothing respectful about that at all.

[Maeganspop]

Originally Posted by tumbleddown

And right there, that's the clencher. Respect isn't presumptive or assumptive. You don't respect a person by just guessing that what you're doing is useful or meaningful to them, or by making futile gestures that don't actually serve a purpose to them. There's nothing respectful about that at all.

At an early age though, I was taught that it was respectful. It is hard to just forget how I was raised.

Also, I am not stubborn. I am learning from everyone here as well.

[Telemark]

Originally Posted by Maeganspop

At an early age though, I was taught that it was respectful. It is hard to just forget how I was raised.

I think everyone here understands that, and recognizes that it's tough to learn new patterns.

But the bottom line is that you realize that the most important part of manners and etiquette is to make the other person comfortable and feel appreciated. Standing up when a female bank manager walks into the room does the opposite. You don't need to forget what you were taught, but you could find it helpful to adapt to changing times and mores.

[septimus]

Living in Silicon Valley, California I was so isolated, introverted and socially inept that passing through a doorway together was one of the few occasions I would have to interact with strangers.

When the stranger was male, like myself, with a "push" door one of us would walk in first, then hold the door so it didn't slam in the other's face, the other reaching to receive the door and let the first continue on his way. With a "pull" door, first to arrive usually held the door for the other and got a tiny smile in return.

Response was often quite different when the stranger was female. As often as not she'd walk through grimly, making me wonder if my common courtesy was interpreted as unwelcome flirtation. I developed the habit, when approaching a doorway that a woman I didn't know was also approaching, of slowing down or speeding up to avoid any uncomfortable interaction.

Frankly, this is an example of why I'm happy I've moved to Thailand, where smiles and friendly banter, rather than consternation, are commonplace in human interactions.

[Left Hand of Dorkness]

Originally Posted by Der Trihs

I don't think I've ever had a woman do that, except female relatives when I was a kid and carrying something. Then again, I'd just walk though with an absentminded "thanks" so I might well just not remember it.

It'd be interesting to watch for it.

As I said earlier, I have the door held for me several times a day by women, and I reciprocate as much. But then, I just remembered someone, a new employee who joined our school, remarking that one of our unwritten rules was that everyone held the door for everyone else. I might take it for granted, but I figure it ought to be the case everywhere.

[KinkiNipponTourist]

Originally Posted by HazelNutCoffee

I WISH people would hold open doors for others where I live. Occasionally my boyfriend holds a door open for me and then someone just behind me quickly nips out in front and dashes through the door without even a glance of acknowledgement. Cultural differences I suppose.

OMG this happens pretty consistently here, and never ceases to blow my mind. My work commute takes me through Shinjuku station, through which nearly 4 MILLION people pass through each day. Tons of doors, through which a pretty much constant stream of people pass. I don't like it when the door slams shut in my face, so when it inevitably does, I prop it open for the person behind me, who is usually mere centimeters behind.

I'd say about half the time I get a smile/grateful nod/at least an outstretched arm. But otherwise, I get someone skating on through--darting through the held-open door. My cheery goodwill dissolves and I pout. Being a passive/aggressive sort, sometimes I let go of said door when I sense this reaction is forthcoming.

Obviously my good manners are superficial at best.