Why has the government lost prestige since 1964?

[New Deal Democrat]

Originally Posted by Marley23

You've read the posts at least enough to respond to them. What purpose is served by asking me to repeat them?

I have just read through this thread. I did not see one fact that disproves my assertion that more punishment leads to less crime. Nor have I seen any evidence that social reform and social welfare spending reduces the crime rate.

[ITR champion]

Originally Posted by New Deal Democrat

You think that because you dislike the idea of inflicting punishment on poor men who break the law. I like that idea. What cannot be denied is that when poverty declined during the 1960s and the prison population declined the crime rate doubled. Since 1980 poverty has become more severe, the prison population has tripled, and the crime rate has declined by one third.

In addition in Freakonomics Steven D. Levitt and Stephen J. Dubner present the plausible argument that the Roe v. Wade decision of 1973 contributed to the decline in violent crime after 1991. Their argument is that females who are most likely to have abortions are unmarried, poorly educated, poor, (and not very intellgent). These are the same kind of females who are most likely to have boy babies who grow up to become violent street criminals. A potential mugger who was aborted in 1974 would have been 18 in 1992.

It's easy to show that the argument Levitt makes in Freakonomics concerning abortion and crime is untrue. We simply check the statistics regarding teenage crime and find that children born in the five-year period after Roe v. Wade were vastly more likely to commit crime than those born in the five-year period before Roe v. Wade. Levitt is a fraud. (He's made false claims in other areas as well.)

As for the issue of whether harsh prison sentences lead to a drop in crime, we again need only look at crime rates over time. During the late 70's and early 80's, punishments were drastically increased all over the country. What happened to crime rates after that? As you've already shown, crime skyrocketed during the 80's and early 90's. It peaked (not "peeked") around '91 and then went down. The incarceration rate does not explain this. What explains this was an increase in police funding, new technologies, new theories of what causes crime, and new approaches to fighting crime, which were actually implemented in the early 90's. This article is the best take on the subject that I've ever seen.

[SpoilerVirgin]

Can someone who is better with statistics than I am compare the incarceration rates by state listed here (at least for top and bottom 10) with the crime rates by state listed here(.pdf)? My cursory inspection shows no correlation at all between the highest incarceration rates and the lowest crime rates.

[ralph124c]

I see the decline in respect/ credibility as a function of the American Empire, which was established in 1960.
Basically, Kennedy decided that the USA would police the world, and maintain a huge standing military force. This would be paid for by the enormous trade surpluses that the USA (and enormous reserves. The US would be assisted by vassal states (the UK, S. Korea, Taiwan), and it was envisioned that this state of affairs would last forever. But now, 52 years later, there is no surplus-the USA is now the world's largest debtor nation, and the peasants are balking at military service. The latest string of imperial wars have proven to be surprisingly unpopular, and the peasants are wondering what they get for their taxes

[Leaffan]

Originally Posted by SpoilerVirgin

Can someone who is better with statistics than I am compare the incarceration rates by state listed here (at least for top and bottom 10) with the crime rates by state listed here(.pdf)? My cursory inspection shows no correlation at all between the highest incarceration rates and the lowest crime rates.

A cursory glance tells me that states with a higher crime rate, have a higher incarceration rate, and states with a lower crime rate, have a lower incarceration rate. (Duh!)

Scribbling some numbers down and rounding off in my head, it appears to me that in the top 10 "bad" states there's about 20 people in jail per 100 crimes committed.

In the top 10 "good" states, there's about 10 people in jail for every 100 crimes committed.

Of course, like I said, that's just guesstimation. I didn't plug the numbers into a calculator.

[Dissonance]

Originally Posted by New Deal Democrat

No. In addition it has a much lower third world population. This contributes to a lower crime rate.

What exactly is a third world population that the UK has less of than the US?

Originally Posted by New Deal Democrat

On the other hand, if there is an overcast sky with dark clouds and it rains it is reasonable to assume that the dark clouds did cause the rain.

Just like Johnson signed the civil rights act and in the same decade there was a loss of faith in the government. Dark clouds cause rain so... I got it, it's so obvious, darkies did it!

[Der Trihs]

Originally Posted by New Deal Democrat

One thing that is omitted in a comparison between U.S. and third world incarceration rates is that conditions in third world prisons are harsher than in American prisons. This has a deterring effect.

No it doesn't. On the contrary; brutality breeds brutality.

Originally Posted by Dissonance

What exactly is a third world population that the UK has less of than the US?

Brown people.

[tomndebb]

Originally Posted by New Deal Democrat

I am failing to persuade you because you feel that criminals are victims of social and economic injustice who deserve remedial education, job training, recreational facilities, and psychological treatment paid for by the tax payers.

It is remarkable that you can determine what I feel on a topic on which I have expressed no opinion. It seems that this sort of straw man is a particularly favored tactic of your, but is is still not persuasive.

Originally Posted by New Deal Democrat

The murder rate is a good measure of the entire crime rate because murders are more likely to come to the attention of the police.

That is silly. We have actual figures on actual crimes across the entire specturm of illegal activity. Those numbers are rported in both the U.S. and Canada. The numbers in both counries show a similar declining rate over the same period. Pulling one category out of the entire spectrum and pretending that that is the "best" way to evaluate the overall rates is nothing but grasping at straws to cover the fact that the real numbers disagree with your assertion.

Originally Posted by New Deal Democrat

Another factor that contributes to the decline in the rate of violent crime after 1991 is the Roe v. Wade decision of 1973. Females with the highest abortion rate are most likely to give birth to boy babies who become violent street criminals. A potential mugger who was aborted in 1974 would have been eighteen in 1992.

Thank you for that testimony that it is a decline in the numbers of crime prone young males that has contributed to the decline in crimes. You might want to back off providing arguments for my position and against yours, however, if you want to hold on to your unsupported claim that higher incarceration has led to the drop in crime.

[New Deal Democrat]

Originally Posted by tomndebb

Thank you for that testimony that it is a decline in the numbers of crime prone young males that has contributed to the decline in crimes. You might want to back off providing arguments for my position and against yours, however, if you want to hold on to your unsupported claim that higher incarceration has led to the drop in crime.

What is unsupportable about my claim? Why does anyone have difficulty understanding what when more criminals are put in prison longer fewer of them will have the opportunity to commit crimes?

More punishment = less crime.

It is just as simple as that.

[gamerunknown]

Originally Posted by New Deal Democrat

More punishment = less crime.

Why is the homicide rate lower in Sweden than in Saudi Arabia? Why is the homicide rate higher in Pakistan than in the Bahamas, a country with a far higher number of incarcerated individuals? Why is Norway's recidivism rate much lower than the United State's?

[Der Trihs]

Originally Posted by New Deal Democrat

What is unsupportable about my claim? Why does anyone have difficulty understanding what when more criminals are put in prison longer fewer of them will have the opportunity to commit crimes?

More punishment = less crime.

It is just as simple as that.

But it isn't that simple. That may be an article of faith among millions of Americans, but that doesn't make it any more true than any other faith based belief.

[tomndebb]

Originally Posted by New Deal Democrat

What is unsupportable about my claim? Why does anyone have difficulty understanding what when more criminals are put in prison longer fewer of them will have the opportunity to commit crimes?

More punishment = less crime.

It is just as simple as that.

I did not say it was unsupportable, only that you have failed miserably to support it.

You have put forth a claim that imprisoning more people leads to less crime. Further, you have insisted, over and over again, that that is the specific reason that crime has dropped in the U.S. You have ignored the fact that Canada and the U.S. have seen very similar trends in a drop in crime while Canada has not increased the rate at which it imprisons people in the same way that the U.S. has. Rather than trying to explain that difference, you have made odd accusations about what others "feel," tried to change the topic, and otherwise avoided addressing the issue.

As to your simplistic, (not simple), claim that "more punishment = less crime," you will need to provide evidence for that claim from different locations or different eras, otherwise it is nothing more than wishful thinking on your part.

[Siam Sam]

I recall my old anthropology professor, who fought as a marine in the South Pacific in WWII and then was a hippie in the 1960s, putting the dividing line as WWII. He claimed the secrecy and counterespionage during that war set a precedent. Said that before the war, your average American trusted the government implicitly, but afterward began a slippery slopw.

[New Deal Democrat]

Originally Posted by gamerunknown

Why is the homicide rate lower in Sweden than in Saudi Arabia? Why is the homicide rate higher in Pakistan than in the Bahamas, a country with a far higher number of incarcerated individuals? Why is Norway's recidivism rate much lower than the United State's?

In Sweden the homicide rate per 100,000 inhabitants is 0.99.
In Saudia Arabia the homicide rate per 100,000 inhabitants is 1.04.

I do not see much difference here.

In Pakistan the homicide rate per 100,000 inhabitants is 7.3.
In the Bahamas the homicide rate per 100,000 inhabitants is 36.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._homicide_rate

A much higher percentage of the Norwegian population is white than in the United States.

"In 2005, [murder] rates for blacks [in the United States] were more than 7 times higher than the rates for whites.
http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/homicide/race.cfm

If you look at the list of murder rates of countries I posted you will see that countries that are predominantly white or Oriental nearly always have lower murder rates than countries that are predominantly black or Hispanic.

[New Deal Democrat]

Originally Posted by ITR champion

It's easy to show that the argument Levitt makes in Freakonomics concerning abortion and crime is untrue. We simply check the statistics regarding teenage crime and find that children born in the five-year period after Roe v. Wade were vastly more likely to commit crime than those born in the five-year period before Roe v. Wade. Levitt is a fraud. ].

Violent street crimes are mainly committed by males between the age of 15 and 30. A violent street criminal born five years before Roe v. Wade would have been 15 in 1983. A violent street criminal born five years after Roe v. Wade would have been 15 in 1993. In 1983 the rate of violent crime per 100,000 inhabitants was 537.7. In 1993 it was 746.8.
http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm

In between was the crack epidemic. I am not saying that a rising prison population and a high rate of abortion are the only factors that influences crime rates. I am saying that they are important factors, and that they are factors over which we have more control than other factors.

Freakonomics has obviously eugenic implications. That is why some people strain to find fault in it.

[New Deal Democrat]

Because the dates begin in 1981 and end in 2001 they do not show the tripling of the U.S. crime rate from 1960 to 1980. Nor do they show the continuing decline after 2001.

http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm

Most Americans have lost ground economically since the beginning of this century, so if poverty increases the crime rate we would expect an increase.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...WhatsNewsThird

Fig 3 of Violent Offenses shows a significant decline in the US after 1991, a less significant decline in the UK, and a fairly flat rate in Canada.

Fig 5 of homicide rates shows a significant decline in the United States after 1991. Homicide is flat in the UK and Canada.

Fig 7 of robbery rates shows a significant decline in the United States after 1991, an increase in the UK, and a flat rate in Canada.

Fig 9 of aggravated assault again shows a decline in the U.S. after 1991, a higher rate in the UK, and a flat rate in Canada.

Fig 11 of burglary rates shows a continual decline in the U.S. after 1981, and higher rates in UK and Canada.

Fig 13 of Motor Theft again shows a decline in 1991 in the US, and a higher rate in the UK.

http://www.csc-scc.gc.ca/text/rsrch/...LinkTarget_562

Higher rates of burglary rates in Canada and the UK have been attributed to more gun ownership by home owners in the United States than in Canada and the UK. The standard argument against strict gun control laws is that law abiding people obey them while criminals do not. In order to evaluate this argument I would need to be able to compare gun ownership by criminals in Canada, the UK, and the US. I do not have that information.

The information in this essay is supportive of Freakonomics because it does show a significant decline in most crimes in the U.S. after 1991.

It is less supportive of my theses that a tripling of the prison population contributed to a decline in the crime rate after 1980. However, the data I use to show fluctuations in the crime rate begin in 1960 and end in 2010.

During the 1960s the prison population in the United States declined. Poverty declined because of a broadly based economic expansion and an expansion of the welfare system. The crime rate doubled. One can argue, and I agree, that part of the decline was caused by an increase in the youth population. One cannot argue that the decline in poverty and the civil rights legislation reduced the crime rate.

[gamerunknown]

Originally Posted by New Deal Democrat

I do not see much difference here.

The difference is in the implementation of the punishment. There is much more punishment in Saudi Arabia, including administering the death penalty for adultery. There is not much less crime. Does that refute your hypothesis? Or will you modify it to "more punishment for black people, less crime"?

[New Deal Democrat]

Originally Posted by gamerunknown

The difference is in the implementation of the punishment. There is much more punishment in Saudi Arabia, including administering the death penalty for adultery. There is not much less crime. Does that refute your hypothesis? Or will you modify it to "more punishment for black people, less crime"?

I have never said that the incarceration rate is the only factor influencing the crime rate. It is an important factor, and one that we have quite a bit of control over.

[Belowjob2.0]

Originally Posted by New Deal Democrat

In Sweden the homicide rate per 100,000 inhabitants is 0.99.
In Saudia Arabia the homicide rate per 100,000 inhabitants is 1.04.

I do not see much difference here.

In Pakistan the homicide rate per 100,000 inhabitants is 7.3.
In the Bahamas the homicide rate per 100,000 inhabitants is 36.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._homicide_rate

A much higher percentage of the Norwegian population is white than in the United States.

"In 2005, [murder] rates for blacks [in the United States] were more than 7 times higher than the rates for whites.
http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/homicide/race.cfm

If you look at the list of murder rates of countries I posted you will see that countries that are predominantly white or Oriental nearly always have lower murder rates than countries that are predominantly black or Hispanic.

No.

Russia has the largest white population in the world, and the largest population of Northern European white folks in the world.

Russians have an astronomically high murder rate, as high as the black American murder rate. The major cities of Russia are rife with violent crime. Huge areas of St Petersburg, Vladivostok, etc are no go areas where tourists and foreign businessmen are advised to avoid.

Is Russia really the outlier here with regard to Europeans, or are the exceptions the prosperous, stable countries of Western Europe?

Remember, if you use environment to explain the crime problem in Russia, then you have to use it everywhere. If not environment, then what? Why isn't Russia as stable and prosperous as China? Why are you much more likely to be robbed, raped, or murdered in Moscow than you are in Shanghai?

[David42]

Originally Posted by Leaffan

The crime rate probably doubled in the 1960s because a whole lot of people born post WWII were becoming teenagers and angry young men. It's probably dropping now because these angry young men are now grouchy old men. I don't think the incarceration rate proves anything.

After reading this whole thread, I can't believe that no-one has pointed out that New Deal Democrat is talking about PER CAPITA incarceration rates and the actual population is therefore irrelevant.

What's the mantra here--"Fighting Ignorance" or "Allowing Ignorance if it Suits My Ideology?"

[Belowjob2.0]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz1B3ZRInlg

Sensationalist, but not too far off the mark.

Britain's violent crime record is worse than any other country in the European union, it has been revealed.

Official crime figures show the UK also has a worse rate for all types of violence than the U.S. and even South Africa - widely considered one of the world's most dangerous countries.

-snip -

Britain has an even worse violence rate than South Africa (file picture)

The Tories said Labour had presided over a decade of spiralling violence.

In the decade following the party's election in 1997, the number of recorded violent attacks soared by 77 per cent to 1.158million - or more than two every minute.

The figures, compiled from reports released by the European Commission and United Nations, also show:

The UK has the second highest overall crime rate in the EU.
It has a higher homicide rate than most of our western European neighbours, including France, Germany, Italy and Spain.
The UK has the fifth highest robbery rate in the EU.
It has the fourth highest burglary rate and the highest absolute number of burglaries in the EU, with double the number of offences than recorded in Germany and France.

But it is the naming of Britain as the most violent country in the EU that is most shocking. The analysis is based on the number of crimes per 100,000 residents.

In the UK, there are 2,034 offences per 100,000 people, way ahead of second-placed Austria with a rate of 1,677.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz1vzvTHbGU

[David42]

Originally Posted by tomndebb

Actually, it is much more likely that we can thank the aging of the population. Given the enormous numbers of people incarcerated for fairly innocuous drug crimes vs the fact that crime rates tend to follow the population trends of 15 - 35 year old males, the incerceration rates are merely an indictment of a hostile and fearful society and have nothing to do with actually lowering crime.

While I'm not buying New Deal Democrat's assertion that it is only the incarceration rate that it is lowering the crime rate, this assertion is far far worse.

The idea that higher incarceration rates couldn't possibly have anything to do with a lesser crime rate is just plain silly.

It's called prevention. A little thing called recidivism.

[New Deal Democrat]

Originally Posted by Belowjob2.0

No.

Russia has the largest white population in the world, and the largest population of Northern European white folks in the world.

Russians have an astronomically high murder rate, as high as the black American murder rate. The major cities of Russia are rife with violent crime. Huge areas of St Petersburg, Vladivostok, etc are no go areas where tourists and foreign businessmen are advised to avoid.

Is Russia really the outlier here with regard to Europeans, or are the exceptions the prosperous, stable countries of Western Europe?

Remember, if you use environment to explain the crime problem in Russia, then you have to use it everywhere. If not environment, then what? Why isn't Russia as stable and prosperous as China? Why are you much more likely to be robbed, raped, or murdered in Moscow than you are in Shanghai?

The abrupt fall of the Soviet Union was bad for the Russians. I have read that during the 1990s the standard of living of 80 percent of the Russian population declined, often to subsistence levels.

Russian would be better off if Mikhail Gorbachev's efforts at gradual reform had succeeded. Those efforts would have had a better chance if Ronald Reagan had not provoked an arms race with the Soviets. That arms race doubled the national debt in the United States, but it was more damaging to the Soviet Union.

[New Deal Democrat]

Originally Posted by David42

I'm not buying New Deal Democrat's assertion that it is only the incarceration rate that it is lowering the crime rate.

On several occasions in this thread I have acknowledged that the decline in the youth population was also a factor.

[New Deal Democrat]

Originally Posted by Belowjob2.0

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz1B3ZRInlg

Sensationalist, but not too far off the mark.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz1vzvTHbGU

A factor in the rising crime rate in the UK is the rising black population.

[New Deal Democrat]

Originally Posted by David42

The idea that higher incarceration rates couldn't possibly have anything to do with a lesser crime rate is just plain silly.

It's called prevention. A little thing called recidivism.

The only thing that reliably reduces recidivism is age. This is an argument in favor of longer prison sentences.

[New Deal Democrat]

This is the best explanation of the end of the New Deal coalition I have read. Thomas Edsall expanded his ideas into a book.

-----------

The Atlantic May 1991

When the official subject is presidential politics, taxes, welfare, crime, rights, or values the real subject is Race...

In particular, busing, affirmative action, and much of the rights revolution in behalf of criminal defendants, prisoners, homosexuals, welfare recipients, and a host of other previously marginalized groups have, for many voters, converted the government from ally to adversary...

George Herbert Walker Bush. Conservative populism has permitted the Republican Party to replace in the minds of many voters the idea of an "establishment" ruled by business interests with a hated new liberal establishment, adversarial to the common man: an elite--of judges, bureaucrats, newspaper editors, ACLU lawyers, academics, Democratic politicians, civil-rights and feminist leaders--determined to enact racially and socially redistributive policies demanding the largest sacrifices from the white working and lower-middle classes...

The contact between whites and the black underclass has routinely violated every standard necessary for the breakdown of racial stereotypes. Most white contact with the underclass is through personal experience of crime and urban squalor, through such experience related by friends and family, or through the daily reports about crime, drugs, and violence which appear on television and in newspapers...

"The stereotype is not a stereotype anymore," says Kenneth S. Tollett, a black professor of education at Howard University. "The behavior pattern in the underclass is not stereotypical in the pejorative sense, but it is a statement of fact. A stereotype is an overgeneralization, 'This is the way people are,' and then we say all are like that. The behavior of black males in the underclass is now beginning to look like the black stereotype. The statements we have called stereotypes in the past have become true."...

The sea change in American presidential politics--the replacement of a liberal majority with a conservative majority--involved the conversion of a relatively small proportion of voters: the roughly five to ten percent of the electorate, made up primarily of white working-class voters, empowered to give majority status to either political party.
http://www.theatlantic.com/past/poli...ace/edsall.htm

[David42]

Originally Posted by New Deal Democrat

On several occasions in this thread I have acknowledged that the decline in the youth population was also a factor.

My apologies if I missed such a statement.

[Belowjob2.0]

Originally Posted by New Deal Democrat

The abrupt fall of the Soviet Union was bad for the Russians. I have read that during the 1990s the standard of living of 80 percent of the Russian population declined, often to subsistence levels.

Russian would be better off if Mikhail Gorbachev's efforts at gradual reform had succeeded. Those efforts would have had a better chance if Ronald Reagan had not provoked an arms race with the Soviets. That arms race doubled the national debt in the United States, but it was more damaging to the Soviet Union.

Remember, if you use environment to explain the crime problem in Russia, then you have to use it everywhere. If not environment, then what? Why isn't Russia as stable and prosperous as China? Why are you much more likely to be robbed, raped, or murdered in Moscow than you are in Shanghai?

A factor in the rising crime rate in the UK is the rising black population.

A minor factor at best. There aren't enough black people in Britain to have such a large effect.

The explosion in crime in the UK is almost entirely a function of the social decay in the white working / welfare classes. Theodore Dalrymple is probably the foremost examiner of this phenomenon: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_at...the_Underclass

We've established that the classic American dodge, "blame it all on black people," doesn't work in a global context. It's a very persistent local phenomenon here in the States. It may be getting worse, as a greater and and greater proportion of the black American population are born in poverty to never married mothers.

Would you feel better getting beaten and mugged by black American thugs on the DC subway, or Slavic Russian thugs on the Moscow subway?

Is it really because Slavs are an inferior race, the way that Hitler and a number of other Teutonic supremacists have claimed over the years? Or maybe, things are more complicated than simple metrics like "race".

[New Deal Democrat]

Originally Posted by Belowjob2.0

We've established that the classic American dodge, "blame it all on black people," doesn't work in a global context.

Predominantly black countries nearly always have higher murder rates than countries that are predominately white or Oriental.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._homicide_rate

In the United States blacks have a murder rate that is over seven times the white rate.

http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/homicide/race.cfm

[Belowjob2.0]

There's still that little factor of the biggest white country in the world having an astronomically high murder rate for an industrialized country.

Is Russia the outlier, or is this typical of what Europeans are capable of when they don't have Western Europe's historical advantages?

[The Tao's Revenge]

Originally Posted by New Deal Democrat

The only thing that reliably reduces recidivism is age. This is an argument in favor of longer prison sentences.

False

[New Deal Democrat]

Originally Posted by Belowjob2.0

There's still that little factor of the biggest white country in the world having an astronomically high murder rate for an industrialized country.

Is Russia the outlier, or is this typical of what Europeans are capable of when they don't have Western Europe's historical advantages?

In 2011 the murder rate in Russia per 100,000 was 12. That is high for a Caucasian country, but most black or Hispanic countries have higher rates.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._homicide_rate

I do not know what the murder rate in Russia was under Communism, but I have read accounts by visitors to the Soviet Union that described a country that was fairly safe from crime.

[The Tao's Revenge]

Originally Posted by Belowjob2.0

There's still that little factor of the biggest white country in the world having an astronomically high murder rate for an industrialized country.

Is Russia the outlier, or is this typical of what Europeans are capable of when they don't have Western Europe's historical advantages?

Hitler, and Nazi Germany were European. The terrifying thing is the evil potential that lurks everywhere, in every single person and population, just waiting for the right time. It is for fear of this evil that we must fight bigotry and oppression.

[New Deal Democrat]

Originally Posted by The Tao's Revenge

False

What works in Norway is unlikely to work as well in the U.S. because of the different racial compositions of the populations. Also, in Norway there is more of a safety net.

[Belowjob2.0]

Originally Posted by New Deal Democrat

In 2011 the murder rate in Russia per 100,000 was 12. That is high for a Caucasian country, but most black or Hispanic countries have higher rates.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._homicide_rate

I do not know what the murder rate in Russia was under Communism, but I have read accounts by visitors to the Soviet Union that described a country that was fairly safe from crime.

Your wiki cite isn't accurate. Russia's murder rate is higher.

[The Tao's Revenge]

Originally Posted by New Deal Democrat

What works in Norway is unlikely to work as well in the U.S. because of the different racial compositions of the populations. Also, in Norway there is more of a safety net.

You have not demonstrated your bigoted, racist, hateful assertions.

[New Deal Democrat]

Originally Posted by The Tao's Revenge

You have not demonstrated your bigoted, racist, hateful assertions.

I have documented that blacks have a significantly higher crime rate than whites and that the overall crime rate has declined declined by one third since 1980 when the prison population tripled.

It is also worthy of note that in 1960, which is to say before the civil rights laws were signed during the 1960s, the overall crime rate was lower than it has been since, although the murder rate was slightly higher.

http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm

A major reason for the decline in the prestige of the government since 1964 is that most of the white majority stopped seeing the government as a organization that advanced their interests. Instead they saw the government as an organization that advanced the interests of blacks at their expense.

[Belowjob2.0]

http://www.manhattan-institute.org/h...f_the_poor.htm

But almost all of Dalrymple's subjects are white. Without the immediate and automatic risk of being called a racist, he is freer to explore the birth of the mind-set that makes and sustains members of the underclass.

"This is a way of life that doesn't really have much to do with race," he tells me. "It's not a racial problem. That's a very important lesson for Americans, I think."

By all means, keep pushing the racial angle. Make it easy for concerns about the unlimited immigration of marginally literate poor people, violent crime, the proliferation of never married mothers, and the resulting social decay, to be dismissed as simple racism.

Keep at it, and one day very soon, the US establishment will repeal civil rights laws and bring back Jim Crow. Then all will be well.

[New Deal Democrat]

Originally Posted by Belowjob2.0

By all means, keep pushing the racial angle. Make it easy for concerns about the unlimited immigration of marginally literate poor people, violent crime, the proliferation of never married mothers, and the resulting social decay, to be dismissed as simple racism.

Keep at it, and one day very soon, the US establishment will repeal civil rights laws and bring back Jim Crow. Then all will be well.

I see little chance for repealing the civil rights legislation. I do not advocate that it be repealed. What I do advocate is that it be narrowly interpreted. The burden of proof should be on those who claim that they have been discriminated against because of race.

Public schools are frequently accused of discriminating against black students because they are more likely to be disciplined. They are also more likely to be discipline problems.

[msmith537]

I think a lot of it has to do with:
the Kennedy assination
The Vietnam War
Watergate
The failure of Operation: Eagle Claw (Iran hostage rescue attempt)
the S&L banking crisis
the Iran Contra fiasco
The Bill Clinton Blowjob Show
The Dot com crash
The Bush/Gore election fiasco
9/11
Hurricane Katrina
Enron
Sarah Palin
The Great Recession

And this is just off the top of my head. URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_federal_political_scandals_in_the_United_States#1981.E2.80.931989_Ronald_Reagan_Administrati on"]You can actually find a more complete list here[/url]

Look, when you do something stupid over and over again and it is shown over and over again on 24 hour news and the internet, people tend to loose respect for you.

[BrainGlutton]

Originally Posted by New Deal Democrat

Nor have I seen any evidence that social reform and social welfare spending reduces the crime rate.

Then you are misplacing your priorities. The point of those things should be to reduce the poverty rate.

[BrainGlutton]

Originally Posted by msmith537

Look, when you do something stupid over and over again and it is shown over and over again on 24 hour news and the internet, people tend to loose respect for you.

But, the "you" in this case is not "the government."

[BrainGlutton]

Originally Posted by New Deal Democrat

Also, in Norway there is more of a safety net.

Let us learn from that, then.

[New Deal Democrat]

Originally Posted by BrainGlutton

Let us learn from that, then.

I favor social democracy. Nevertheless, it only seems to work in countries where nearly everyone is white. When the War on Poverty, declared by Lyndon Johnson in 1964, made welfare benefits more generous and easier to qualify for hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions, of blacks quit low paying jobs and went on welfare, even though unemployment rates were declining. Whites are less likely to behave that way.

Also, white blue collar workers tend to oppose domestic spending programs that would benefit them - like a single payer health plan - if the programs would also help blacks.

The political center in the United States is to the right of where it is in Europe. This is because the American population is more heterogeneous than populations in Europe. Loyalties of class are usually less powerful than loyalties of race, nation, and ethnicity.

[Der Trihs]

Originally Posted by New Deal Democrat

The political center in the United States is to the right of where it is in Europe. This is because the American population is more heterogeneous than populations in Europe.

No, it's because Americans are taught from birth to be religious and to be ideological psychopaths. Americans are taught to regard everyone else as nothing more than an enemy to be destroyed or a resource to be exploited. Outside of their immediate family, most Americans have no compassion or loyalty to each other; they aren't any more generous to people within their own "race" than anyone else, regardless of your racial fantasies.

[FinnAgain]

Originally Posted by Der Trihs

No, it's because Americans are taught from birth to be religious and to be ideological psychopaths.

Now now Der, we've already got this thread chock full of silly bigoted comments hinting at how bad blacks are, we don't also require silly bigoted comments about how evil Americans are.

[Der Trihs]

Originally Posted by FinnAgain

Now now Der, we've already got this thread chock full of silly bigoted comments hinting at how bad blacks are, we don't also require silly bigoted comments about how evil Americans are.

It's not silly, it's the truth. Americans care very little about the welfare of other Americans. "What's in it for me" and "I've got mine, screw you" are overwhelmingly common attitudes. Americans hate helping each other, and are generally willing to suffer themselves in order to avoid doing so.

[New Deal Democrat]

Originally Posted by FinnAgain

Now now Der, we've already got this thread chock full of silly bigoted comments hinting at how bad blacks are, we don't also require silly bigoted comments about how evil Americans are.

I usually document my factual assertions. Der Trihs did not.

[tomndebb]

Originally Posted by FinnAgain

Now now Der, we've already got this thread chock full of silly bigoted comments hinting at how bad blacks are, we don't also require silly bigoted comments about how evil Americans are.

On the contrary, I welcome this sort of comment. It demonstrates pretty well that the topic of this thread is nothing more than an attempt to proselytize the informed by people who need to hold up their beliefs as Gospel, regardless of facts and logic.
Regardless whether we are watching New Deal Democrat moving goalposts, claiming that he has accepted positions that do not appear in his posts, or trying to cast a racist rant as a discussion of political attitudes in the U.S. or Der Trihs engaging in one more fundy atheist rant, it is pretty easy to see that no serious discussion with a True Believer will ever succeed as a rational discussion.