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#51
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Powers &8^] |
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#52
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As for Mithra dying and being resurrected, the evidence is: I see no references anywhere in the Mithraic studies literature to Mithra being buried, or even dying, for that matter [Gordon says directly, that there is "no death of Mithras" -- Gor.III, 96] and so of course no rising again and no "resurrection" (in a Jewish sense?!) to celebrate. ... Wynne-Tyson [Wyn.MFC, 24; cf. Ver.MSG, 38] also refers to a church writer of the fourth century, Firmicus, who says that the Mithraists mourn the image of a dead Mithras -- still way too late! -- but after reading the work of Firmicus, I find no such reference at all. Quote:
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#53
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Perhaps nothing official, but I've certainly heard that argument from mainstream Christian sources, though personal conversations, so no cites available.
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#54
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I'm surprised no one's brought up Christian borrowings from Hinduism. Anyone who's ever been to a medieval church must have been struck by all the elephant-headed Jesuses.
Last edited by TSBG; 05-30-2012 at 02:36 PM. |
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#55
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On the contrary, this Christian cannot make head nor tail of what you say; it makes no sense at all.
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John W. Kennedy "The blind rulers of Logres Nourished the land on a fallacy of rational virtue." -- Charles Williams. Taliessin through Logres: Prelude |
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#56
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Last edited by Raider Duck; 06-01-2012 at 12:04 PM. |
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#57
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Trypho critizing Justin for Pagan similarities: Quote:
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#58
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Not as far as I know. Note that the name “Mithras” (in various forms) turns up in Hinduism, Zoroastrianism, and Buddhism, as well as in the Roman-era cult known as “Mithraism”. Clear and unmistakeable evidence of actual Mithraism does not turn up until the first century AD or so. Considerably more ambiguous evidence, no earlier than about 100 BC.
__________________
John W. Kennedy "The blind rulers of Logres Nourished the land on a fallacy of rational virtue." -- Charles Williams. Taliessin through Logres: Prelude |
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#59
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#60
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It is very well established that the cults of Mithra and Dionysus (who had a very popular religious cult, which surprises many people who only know about him as a minor god from what their English class Greek mythology studies told them) had many of the most important features that popped up in Christianity later. And they certainly weren't the only ones either. I actually kind of have to laugh whenever someone tries to say Christ was based upon Horus or Osiris. Their myths -- which, granted, may not be all of them, since there were so many variants, and there may be some Horus cult later some people refer to -- have some similarities but are not the best of fits, especially when there are so many others that are extremely well documented and a lot more relevant. Even if you were to prove the those features of Mithra cult came after the founding of Christianity (which does not seem at all likely based upon what we actually know), you'd have to account for the cults of Dionysus, Adonis, Tammuz and countless others as well. Quote:
The idea that the story of the alleged life of Jesus Christ and the features of the religion that sprung up later were in any way unique or the first in any of its tenets or claims is simply laughable once anyone does any substantive reading of history or mythology. Of course if all you read are shoddy Christian apologetics sites and books, this fundamental ignorance of other ancient religious beliefs and myths is understandable, but it's certainly not excusable in anyone trying to debate the topic. |
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#61
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It should be noted that there was no "one set" of Egyptian beliefs. There were many, many, different sets - it's not even comparable with the early Christians (and their sects). Further, what we know about Egyptian religion comes from, primarily, their tombs and such. We have the 'book of the dead', but that really isn't a complete view of their religion in the way that the Bible is for Christians and Jews. |
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#62
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"Mithraism as a religion cannot be attested before about 90 A.D. ... The earliest Mithraic inscription in the West is a statue of a prefect under the Emperor Trajan in AD 101. The earliest mithraea are dated to the early second century. There are a handful of inscriptions that date to the early second century, but the vast majority of texts are dated after 140 AD. Most of what we have as evidence of Mithraism comes from the second, third, and fourth centuries AD. That's basically what's wrong with the theories about Mithraism influencing the beginnings of Christianitiy."So there are the facts about the dates of the Mithra cult from a real scholar. Quote:
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#63
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Frankly, the notion that the Gospel authors copied from myths of Horus or Dionysius or Mithras or any other Pagan deity is comparable to Holocaust denial as far as how much respectability it gets among mainstream scholars. We've had many threads debunking such claims on this board: http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...d.php?t=629747 http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...d.php?t=498997 http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...d.php?t=547747 http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...d.php?t=488132 And there are outside sources debunking the claims, readily available to anyone with Google. This is one of many. Further, whenever anyone on the SDMB comes in advocating the copycat theory, they have to turn around and run as soon as cites are called for. Here's one of many threads where that happened: http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...d.php?t=567217 |
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#64
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The second thing, in the apology Justin was arguing that Christianity was superior to Roman beliefs because of the morality issue. In short, he's arguing that Satan (or his cronies) put forth all these false beliefs out there and you can the true beliefs because of the moral character of the people in them. Here's what he says in his first apology: Quote:
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That's what his apologies are about, but his dialogue with Trypho is an attempt to argue that Christianity is line with the ancient Scriptures - which Trypho expressly denies. Trypho states flat out: Quote:
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#65
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It's like if you strawman the notion that Christianity had similarities with pagan religions into Christianity merely cut and paste Jesus into pagan religion you can forget about any of the similarities.
Life doesn't work that way though. |
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#66
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I don't have any particular attachment to any religion or to anti-theism. I would, however, as a person without particular religious faith, find it difficult to believe that Christianity might be the only non-syncretic religion on the planet. I enjoy comparative religious studies. I do not accept that if Judaism and Christianity were influenced by other religions in their long history, that they are somehow "debunked" (any more than any mythology can be "debunked" as bunking isn't the point). On the contrary, I find it inspiring to see the cultural and historical context out of which they arose. So there's no point in defending Christianity's honor to me. In my opinion, those aren't grubby fingerprints smearing the religion, they're the souls of our predecessors which instill life, inspiration, and humanity into the traditions of Christianity et al.
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The Mithraic Mysteries were a mystery religion practised in the Roman Empire from about the 1st to 4th centuries AD. (Which says nothing about when it was founded nor whether it had precursors to which Paul and other early Christians may have been familiar). That Christian communion existed "long before" Mithraism would difficult if they were founded around the same time. However, I did not say that communion was taken from Mithraism, I said that transubstantiation may have been influenced by Mithraism. Considering that the doctrine of transubstantiation is not universally accepted by Christians and that we don't know for sure when the belief came about, only that it was written of in around the 1st century and formalized in the 10th century, I see nothing in what you said that concretely disproves the possibility. Particularly if you recall that Roman Mithraism didn't come out of thin air in the 1st century, that there was a pre-existing tradition, as some evidence indicates. Quote:
Zoroastrianism ... was probably founded some time before the 6th century BCE in Greater Iran. Zoroastrianism emerged out of a common prehistoric Indo-Iranian religious system dating back to the early 2nd millennium BCE (2000 if you please). Luckily Zoroastrianism per se, and even any religious tradition from which it stemmed would not have needed to exist prior to Judaism in order to influence Jewish eschatology. It would only have needed to exist prior to those portions of Jewish eschatology it is believed to have affected. Which, strangely enough, is the entire reason many religious scholars believe this. Because of certain Jewish beliefs that arose and gained prevalence only during and after a period during which Persia dominated Mesopotamia. Quote:
I'm afraid I can't cite most of my sources as they are books that I read over the last 15 years. However, I'll take Joseph Campbell's word over a random internet site any day. The internet contains a lot of good information, but it's difficult to verify. One can say anything one pleases, and lack of a historical record is not proof of a lack of history. I believe I have done enough research over the years to legitimately draw my own conclusions. While those conclusions may not be correct and may someday be conclusively disproved, as yet they remain valid theories. Last edited by lanthanein; 06-07-2012 at 02:56 PM. |
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#67
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The original message of Jesus Christ was directed at Jews, predicting the coming of a Jewish Kingdom. This message had to be altered to appeal to a wider audience. Yes, the Christian proselytizers wanted to make a clear distinction between what they were offering and what the Gentile audience already had, but they certainly also tried to make it palatable to the Gentile crowd. A few miracles spice up the story nicely. |
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#68
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I guess it still boils down to what human one wants to believe!
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