Mind Your P's and Q's

[cynyc]

I wouldn't ask Cecil. I'd ask Pat:

http://www.grammarphobia.com/

[svd678]

I found no reference to Ps & Qs in that link. (Did I do something wrong?)

[Giles]

The grammarphobia article: Mind your p’s and q’s

Uncle Cecil's article: What's the origin of the expression "mind your P's and Q's"?

[C K Dexter Haven]

Cecil doesn't do much etymology nowadays, since the advent of the internet and so many websited dedicated to word/phrase origins. However, in his column (from 1989) he cites an OED reference from 1612 (spelled "Pee and Kew.") Ms O'Conner on the Grammarphobia blog cites 1779, also from the OED.

I don't have an OED to check them, but 'praps some kind soul will do so here. Frankly, I find Cecil's article more complete and more informative, but I guess it's a matter of taste.

[Exapno Mapcase]

Etymonline.com

To mind one's Ps and Qs (1779), possibly is from confusion of these letters among children learning to write. Another theory traces it to old-time tavern-keepers tracking their patrons' bar tabs in pints and quarts. But cf. also to be P and Q (1610s), "to be excellent," a slang phrase said to derive from prime quality.

In short, no definitive answer. It's likely that several expressions were influenced by one another or melded together in common speech.

[John W. Kennedy]

Cecil’s reference is OK, but, although Hannah Cowley is real, and Who’s the Dupe is a real play that she produced in 1779, it is not cited in the OED3 s.v. p’s and q’s

[agnesnitt]

I'm a little surprised by the answer that q.t. is an abbreviation for quiet.

I'd like to point out that there is at least one famous latin expression in which 'he who is silent' forms a part.

qui tacet consentire--he who is silent is take to agree.

Therefore, there may be an equivalent expression like "qui tacet"-- that means "he/it who/which is silent."

While the declension may be incorrect (It may be qui tacere or something) I think it's a more likely answer for Q.T. than an abbreviation for quiet.

Q.T. is probably an old legal, parliamentary, or literary expression (like q.v.) that has passed from use.

I for one think 'quiet' would be abbreviated as qt. Instead whenever I've seen the reference it's always Q.T., which usually indicates an abbreviation of a Latin expression.

I would check with a Classics professor.

[Exapno Mapcase]

Etymonline again:

q.t.
slang for "quiet," in on the q.t., attested from 1874. Phrase on the quiet appears from 1847.

All the word origin sites say the same thing, with more detail. None suggests any connection to the Latin phrase.

[cynyc]

This was a Just Saying thing. I emailed Pat twice and she answered both times. I've never really used her site.

We had a nice conversation on the word--the spoken word that I detest whenever I hear it:

Empathetic. (Empathy.) Drives me crazy. What the hell is wrong with empathic? Who turned it into a version of emphasize or pathetic.

This is in my hit parade of pet peeves.

[John W. Kennedy]

Originally Posted by agnesnitt

I'm a little surprised by the answer that q.t. is an abbreviation for quiet.

I'd like to point out that there is at least one famous latin expression in which 'he who is silent' forms a part.

qui tacet consentire--he who is silent is take to agree.

Therefore, there may be an equivalent expression like "qui tacet"-- that means "he/it who/which is silent."

While the declension may be incorrect (It may be qui tacere or something) I think it's a more likely answer for Q.T. than an abbreviation for quiet.

Q.T. is probably an old legal, parliamentary, or literary expression (like q.v.) that has passed from use.

I for one think 'quiet' would be abbreviated as qt. Instead whenever I've seen the reference it's always Q.T., which usually indicates an abbreviation of a Latin expression.

I would check with a Classics professor.

But it makes no sense. “We want to do this on the he who is silent.” Bleah! Indeed, all the early citations in the OED are “strict” or “strictly q.t.”, which makes even less sense. And it’s not as though the word itself is obscure—it’s given us the English word “tacit”, and any performer knows, as well, that “tacet” is the musical equivalent of “This space intentionally left blank.” The OED says it’s “q[uie]t” (which used to be a common style of abbreviation, as in “M[iste]r” or “M[ain]e”), and I’d need some hard proof before I’d disagree.

[Powers]

Originally Posted by cynyc

Empathetic. (Empathy.) Drives me crazy. What the hell is wrong with empathic? Who turned it into a version of emphasize or pathetic.

This is in my hit parade of pet peeves.

Yet you don't complain that it's 'sympathetic' instead of 'sympathic'?

Besides, using "empathetic" frees up "empathic" for the sci-fi use. =)


Powers &8^]

[C K Dexter Haven]

The emphasis is on the empathy?

[Sloth4z]

For some reason I've always thought that "mind your P's and Q's," meant be sure to say please and thank you. It's a play on the similar sounding between Q and "thank you". I don't know how I got this idea, but I find it surprising how different it is from Cecil's explanations.

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/...your-ps-and-qs

[C K Dexter Haven]

Welcome to the Straight Dope Message Boards, Sloth4z, glad to have you with us. And thanks for providing a link to the column!

Since there was already a thread on this topic, I'm merging your new thread into that one. Keeps all discussion on P's and Q's in the same place.

On your comment: Agreed, there's a pun on Q's but there's also that P's sounds like a child's rendition of "Please" (omitting the difficult L sound.) Attractive theory, but not mentioned by most etymologists.

[thirdname]

In logic, the letters p and q are typically used in the same way that x and y are used in algebra. Perhaps that has something to do with it?

[John W. Kennedy]

No, the expression is much older than modern formalizations of logic. If that had been the case, the system (in reference to the old rules of Barbara, Celarent, etc.) might have turned out something like *“Mind your e’s and i’s.”

[cynyc]

I just remembered something. I read somewhere that it had to do with the olden way of setting type--one letter at a time. And the shop owner would remind the typesetters not to mix them up, the p's and the q's) when putting them away.

FWIW

[Powers]

Originally Posted by cynyc

I just remembered something. I read somewhere that it had to do with the olden way of setting type--one letter at a time. And the shop owner would remind the typesetters not to mix them up, the p's and the q's) when putting them away.

FWIW

Did you perhaps read it in Cecil's column?

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/...your-ps-and-qs

Which is, you know, the subject under discussion here?


Powers &8^]

[cynyc]

Cecil who? Or nope. :-)

Originally Posted by Powers

Did you perhaps read it in Cecil's column?

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/...your-ps-and-qs

Which is, you know, the subject under discussion here?


Powers &8^]

[John W. Kennedy]

I, for one, certainly encountered the typesetting argument long before Cecil wrote his first column. (And, deep in my past, I’ve actually used a composing stick and a California box.)

[Irishman]

Originally Posted by cynyc

Empathetic. (Empathy.) Drives me crazy. What the hell is wrong with empathic? Who turned it into a version of emphasize or pathetic.

As noted, this is derived from an incorrect parallel with "sympathetic".

Originally Posted by Powers

Yet you don't complain that it's 'sympathetic' instead of 'sympathic'?

Because "sympathetic" comes from the Greek sumpathetikos, so is correct. [crap, formatting didn't keep]

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/sympathetic

[Powers]

Originally Posted by Irishman

Because "sympathetic" comes from the Greek sumpathetikos, so is correct. [crap, formatting didn't keep]

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/sympathetic

I didn't say "sympathetic" was incorrect. Are you saying that the "pathy" in sympathy has a different derivation than the "pathy" in empathy? Don't they both come from "pathos", meaning 'feeling'?


Powers &8^]

[Irishman]

It would seem that way to me. But I'm just looking in the "derivations" stuff in online dictionaries. Someone with better info could provide a better answer as to why sympathy has sympatheticos and thus sympathetic, but empathy does not have empatheticos and thus empathetic.

Perhaps sympathy is a much older word than empathy?

[Irishman]

I thought it stood for "mind your Penises and Qunts".

[Exapno Mapcase]

Originally Posted by Irishman

It would seem that way to me. But I'm just looking in the "derivations" stuff in online dictionaries. Someone with better info could provide a better answer as to why sympathy has sympatheticos and thus sympathetic, but empathy does not have empatheticos and thus empathetic.

Perhaps sympathy is a much older word than empathy?

Much older and with a totally different history. From Etymonline.com

empathy (n.)
1903, from Ger. Einfühlung (from ein "in" + Fühlung "feeling"), coined 1858 by German philosopher Rudolf Lotze (1817-1881) as a translation of Gk. empatheia "passion, state of emotion," from en "in" (see en- (2)) + pathos "feeling" (see pathos). A term from a theory of art appreciation that maintains appreciation depends on the viewer's ability to project his personality into the viewed object.

empathic
1909, from empathy + -ic. Related: Empathically.

empathetic
1932, in psychology, from empathy on model of sympathetic and to distinguish it from empathic. Related: Empathetically.

sympathy
1570s, "affinity between certain things," from M.Fr. sympathie, from L.L. sympathia "community of feeling, sympathy," from Gk. sympatheia, from sympathes "having a fellow feeling, affected by like feelings," from syn- "together" + pathos "feeling" (see pathos). In English, almost a magical notion at first; e.g. in reference to medicines that heal wounds when applied to a cloth stained with blood from the wound. Meaning "conformity of feelings" is from 1590s; sense of "fellow feeling" is first attested 1660s. An O.E. loan-translation of sympathy was efensargung.

sympathetic
1640s, "pertaining to sympathy," from Mod.L. sympatheticus, from Gk. sympathetikos, from sympathein, from sympathes "having a fellow feeling, affected by like feelings" (see sympathy). Meaning "having fellow feeling" is recorded from 1718. In anatomical sense, the word is attested from 1769, from Mod.L. (nervus) sympathicus, coined by Jacques-Benigne Winslow (1669-1760), Danish anatomist living in Paris. Related: Sympathetically.

[Powers]

Okay, so "empathy" comes from the Greek "empatheia", while "sympathy" comes from the Greek "sympatheia". Both use the root "pathos", meaning "feeling".

In the 17th century, someone decided we needed an adjectival form of "sympathy" and reached back to the Latin and Greek to find 'sympathetikos'/'-cus' and create "sympathetic".

In the 20th century, someone decided we needed an adjectival form of "empathy" and just added the usual "-c" suffix: "empathic". A few years later, someone decided that if the Greeks had needed such a word they would have used "empathetikos" and thus coined "empathetic".

I don't see any grounds here for calling "empathetic" wrong in any way, just because it's 13 years younger than "empathic".


Powers &8^]