Orthodox prohibition against cremation?

[LavenderBlue]

My mom's dying. An Orhodox rabbi has told my poor father to disregard her wishes to be creamated on the grounds that she will go to hell if she does. What is the Reform / Conservative position on creamation? I admit I'm furious here. What kind of human being gives a poor man grief over following his wife's wishes for her death? She left instructions IN WRITING that she wanted to be creamated. And this asshole rabbi is my brother's rabbi and telling my dad to ignore them. My mom was culturally Jewish but did not keep kosher or adhere to any other strictures of orthodoxy.

[RealityChuck]

Find another rabbi. My grandfather and grandmother were cremated. The only thing the rabbi insisted upon was that it be done after the services (which had coffins).

[Terr]

Originally Posted by LavenderBlue

My mom's dying. An Orhodox rabbi has told my poor father to disregard her wishes to be creamated on the grounds that she will go to hell if she does. What is the Reform / Conservative position on creamation? I admit I'm furious here. What kind of human being gives a poor man grief over following his wife's wishes for her death? She left instructions IN WRITING that she wanted to be creamated. And this asshole rabbi is my brother's rabbi and telling my dad to ignore them. My mom was culturally Jewish but did not keep kosher or adhere to any other strictures of orthodoxy.

You misunderstood something. He couldn't have said that cremation would send her to hell, there really is no concept of hell in Judaism. The prohibition on cremation is because if you're cremated, there is no possibility of resurrection after the Mashiach comes.

[panache45]

I agree, find another rabbi. The only things that matter are your mother's wishes and the family's peace of mind.

[Terr]

http://www.chabad.org/library/articl...-Cremation.htm

This explains the prohibition on cremation in Judaism in depth.

[LavenderBlue]

Originally Posted by Terr

http://www.chabad.org/library/articl...-Cremation.htm

This explains the prohibition on cremation in Judaism in depth.

Chabad does NOT speak for all Jews. They are Orthodox. My mother was not. Her wishes should not go ignored.

I'll have to call my own rabbi tomorrow. I spoke to the orthodox rabbi tonight. He's a jackass who told me that we should ignore my mom's wishes on the grounds that she was ignorant of judaism. Bastard. My mom was raised Orthodox. She had friends who were Orthodox her whole life. She knew Orthodoxy and she hated Orthodoxy. I told the idiot rabbi you might as well baptise her as ask her to follow the strictures of a religious sect she loathed. He told me he forgives me for being married to a non-Jew.

Ugh. What a fucking asshole! How dare he put my father in the position of ignoring my mother's expressed wishes or feeling guilty about not being a good enough Jew! He said that I didn't really know what my mother wanted. Yeah. She put it in writing but none of us know.

Jerk!

[Eva Luna]

Seriously, find another rabbi. Even if the Orthodox rabbi disagrees with you, he could at least be a teeny bit sensitive.

[cmkeller]

First of all, my condolences on your impending loss. I wish you comfort.

The rabbi in question might have been a jerk, but he's right that cremation is not permitted according to Torah law. Terr is correct about the issue being future resurrection rather than Hell (though the concept of punishment for sins after death does exist in Judaism, even if the "Hell" of Milton and Dante don't - heck how much of that is actually valid Christian theology is questionable as well).

If your family is not Orthodox, I don't know why an Orthodox rabbi would have been the one advising you in the first place. If your mother's written wishes are more important to you than religious tradition, then you were going to obey them anyway, so why do you need to shop for an agreeable clergy-person? Conversely, if the reason you spoke to an Orthodox rabbi is because you're concerned about the state of her soul after death despite not being religious, then what do you gain by getting a hand-picked rabbi to rubber-stamp the decision you wanted, rather than actually listening to the rabbi's information on religious doctrine, even if it's not what you wanted to hear?

[LavenderBlue]

Originally Posted by cmkeller

First of all, my condolences on your impending loss. I wish you comfort.

The rabbi in question might have been a jerk, but he's right that cremation is not permitted according to Torah law. Terr is correct about the issue being future resurrection rather than Hell (though the concept of punishment for sins after death does exist in Judaism, even if the "Hell" of Milton and Dante don't - heck how much of that is actually valid Christian theology is questionable as well).

If your family is not Orthodox, I don't know why an Orthodox rabbi would have been the one advising you in the first place. If your mother's written wishes are more important to you than religious tradition, then you were going to obey them anyway, so why do you need to shop for an agreeable clergy-person? Conversely, if the reason you spoke to an Orthodox rabbi is because you're concerned about the state of her soul after death despite not being religious, then what do you gain by getting a hand-picked rabbi to rubber-stamp the decision you wanted, rather than actually listening to the rabbi's information on religious doctrine, even if it's not what you wanted to hear?

I did not consult the rabbi in question. My brother did. We were raised Reform but my brother has decided that Orthodoxy is his path. The problem is that is it HIS path not my mom's. To specifically attempt to convince my father to ignore my mom's written wishes is ethically and morally wrong.

I want another rabbi to talk to my father and let him know that his wife's wishes should be obeyed and that it is okay to do so Jewishly.This rabbi is being a jerk. I don't know what happens to the soul after death. But I don't want my father to ignore his wife's written wishes and feel horribly guilty afterwards.

[Terr]

Originally Posted by LavenderBlue

I want another rabbi to talk to my father and let him know that his wife's wishes should be obeyed and that it is okay to do so Jewishly.

If by "Jewishly" you mean Reform Judaism then yes, barely. But if not, then no, it is not okay to do so "Jewishly". So when you rabbi-shop, make sure to find a Reform one.

[Fear Itself]

Originally Posted by Terr

The prohibition on cremation is because if you're cremated, there is no possibility of resurrection after the Mashiach comes.

I never understood this. Is this a limit on god's power? Or is he offended, and just not want to?

[JRDelirious]

Originally Posted by LavenderBlue

I spoke to the orthodox rabbi tonight. He's a jackass who told me that we should ignore my mom's wishes on the grounds that she was ignorant of judaism. Bastard. My mom was raised Orthodox. She had friends who were Orthodox her whole life. She knew Orthodoxy and she hated Orthodoxy. I told the idiot rabbi you might as well baptise her as ask her to follow the strictures of a religious sect she loathed. He told me he forgives me for being married to a non-Jew.

Holy moley. Just goes to show there's no monopoly on the attitude of who cares if people suffer pain as long as I Know I Speak for God. But the big issue seems to be more with your brother, who has decided he needs to "save" the rest of his family by following strict orthodoxy. No objective answers to THAT so I'll leave it at this.

[JRDelirious]

Originally Posted by Fear Itself

I never understood this. Is this a limit on god's power? Or is he offended, and just not want to?

From Terr's link:

Cremation is an implied statement of rejection of the concept of resurrection. It is in effect a declaration that once the soul has departed the body, the lifeless body has served its purpose and now has no further value.

Our Sages teach that those who deny the notion of the resurrection will not merit to be resurrected within their own bodies, rather their souls will be enclothed in different bodies when that awaited day arrives.

Based on this idea, many authorities conclude that a person who opts for cremation is subject to this consequence as well.

[LavenderBlue]

Originally Posted by Terr

If by "Jewishly" you mean Reform Judaism then yes, barely. But if not, then no, it is not okay to do so "Jewishly". So when you rabbi-shop, make sure to find a Reform one.

Judaism says honor thy father and mother. I am trying to do that by making sure that her wishes in regards to her death are carried out. I am not a halackic scholar. But I think asking an old man mourning his wife to ignore his wife's wishes is simply disgusting and not exactly in the spirit of Judaism.

[Anne Neville]

Our Sages teach that those who deny the notion of the resurrection will not merit to be resurrected within their own bodies, rather their souls will be enclothed in different bodies when that awaited day arrives.

Well, I want that. A taller one, without the acid reflux, allergies, or tendency to gain weight, would sure be nice. Maybe I will plan to be cremated after all

Originally Posted by LavenderBlue

What kind of human being gives a poor man grief over following his wife's wishes for her death?

I'm pretty sure that doing this is a much worse sin than being cremated.

Originally Posted by Terr

You misunderstood something. He couldn't have said that cremation would send her to hell, there really is no concept of hell in Judaism.

He could have said that. He could be ignorant as well as being a jerk.

[Shinna Minna Ma]

Originally Posted by LavenderBlue

Judaism says honor thy father and mother. I am trying to do that by making sure that her wishes in regards to her death are carried out. I am not a halackic scholar. But I think asking an old man mourning his wife to ignore his wife's wishes is simply disgusting and not exactly in the spirit of Judaism.

You can't justify following one halacha (honor thy father and mother) by breaking another halacha (no cremations). I believe the late Rabbi Moshe Feinstein, (the greatest halachic expert of the past generation) once specifically ruled on a case where someone who was dying asked to be buried upside down. Rabbi Feinsten said we don't follow last wishes if they are against halacha.

There's a concept in Judaism of kavod hamayt, or respecting the body of the person who died. The body is prepared by ritually bathing it and then wrapping it in a specific manner in shrouds. It is then buried as quickly as possible. The group of people who perform these tasks is called the chevra kadisha.

Cremating the body (or altering it in any way) is not considered kavod hamayt, which is one reason why observant Jews won't do it. The main reason is as Terr stated.

[Terr]

Originally Posted by Anne Neville

He could have said that. He could be ignorant as well as being a jerk.

He could not have received his smicha (the rabbi "diploma") being ignorant on religious matters.

[cmkeller]

LavenderBlue:

I did not consult the rabbi in question. My brother did. We were raised Reform but my brother has decided that Orthodoxy is his path. The problem is that is it HIS path not my mom's. To specifically attempt to convince my father to ignore my mom's written wishes is ethically and morally wrong.

I'm sorry to hear your brother is being pushy like this. But do remember that his loss is the same as your loss, and that his religion - specifically, the belief that he might be re-united with your mother in the resurrection future - offers him comfort at this time, as much as obeying your mother's wishes might be to you and your father.

You profess to not know what the ultimate fate of the soul is after death, but your brother clearly feels he does (to some degree). Perhaps before going ahead with the cremation you should be thinking about a quasi-Pascal's wager here:

1) There's certainly no religious imperative TO cremate (unless your mother, after rejecting Orthodox Judaism, took up Hindu or ancient Viking)
2) If your brother and the Orthodox Rabbi are right, then after death, she'd learn the truth and be regretting a cremation and be happy to have been buried intact
3) If they're wrong, then either
a) The soul has no further awareness of Earthly existence after death in which case, the port-mortem disposition of her body is purely for the comfort of the living, and your brother is also one of the affected mourners, or
b) The soul maintains some degree of awareness of what happened on Earth, in which case, she'd know that your brother's insistence on burial was made out of genuine concern (however misplaced) for her ultimate fate.

Unless the relationship between your brother (granted, he's been a dick about how he handled this particular matter, but maybe in general you guys get along) and the rest of your family is particularly acrimonious and spiteful, I'd suggest that there is more to be gained from maintaining a harmonious relationship with, and comfort in mourning for, a living brother than from honoring the wishes of a dead mother. Perhaps your father would agree with that. And who knows, if his religious views are correct, you've done her a favor as well.

[Ponch8]

What about people who die in fires?

[Terr]

Originally Posted by Ponch8

What about people who die in fires?

From the Chabad page that I cited above:

It is important to note that according to Jewish law, a person is only held accountable for his/her actions when they are done willingly, and with full cognizance of their implications.

Therefore, all the above does not apply to an individual who was cremated against his will.

[Kimstu]

I think the disparaging references to "rabbi-shopping" and "hand-picking" a rabbi to approve cremation are a bit insulting. It is not any more manipulative or selfish for LavenderBlue to seek the opinion of a rabbi whose interpretation of Judaism is similar to her mother's than it is for her brother to seek the opinion of a rabbi whose (Orthodox) interpretation of Judaism is similar to his own.

There are widely differing schools of thought in Judaism about what the correct interpretation of Jewish law should be, and the Orthodox interpretation is not a priori better or more valid than another (except, of course, in the eyes of Orthodox Jews themselves).

In any case, to answer the OP's factual question, yes, cremation is considered permissible in Reform interpretations of Judaism. To quote from Terr's above link (which actually condones the practice more fully than his dismissive qualifier "barely" would suggest):

In 2006 the Central Conference of American Rabbis’ Responsa Committee studied the practice of cremation, deliberated this question, and issued a responsum, summarized below.

Our tradition teaches that it is a mitzvah to honor a dying person’s request, provided that the person does not ask us to commit a sin. Cremation is not a sin, because neither the Torah nor rabbinic halachah ever explicitly prohibited the practice. The Central Conference of American Rabbis accepted cremation as a legitimate option in an 1892 resolution stating: “In case we should be invited to officiate as ministers of religion at the cremation of a departed co-religionist, we ought not to refuse on the plea that cremation be anti-Jewish or anti-religion.” The 1961 Rabbi’s Manual reaffirmed this decision, noting that “most Reform Jews have gone beyond this cautious tolerance and have accepted cremation as an entirely proper procedure. A number of leading Reform rabbis have requested that their bodies be cremated.” And many Reform families have continued the practice.

In the nineteenth century, however, when cremation became increasingly common in Western countries, Orthodox rabbis began to define it as a transgression against Jewish law; and over the past several decades, the CCAR has spoken more negatively of the practice, preferring traditional burial, a universal Jewish custom until relatively recent times. As the responsum puts it: “The CCAR discourages the choice of cremation; it supports the choice of traditional burial; and Reform thought today recognizes the right of our people to adopt traditional standards of religious practice that previous generations of Reform Jews may have abandoned.”

In other words, although Reform Judaism prefers burial over cremation as more in keeping with Jewish tradition, there is nothing sinful or prohibited about choosing cremation.

[Yarster]

The idea of the "rabbi shopping" is presumably because the OP wants a Jewish funeral ceremony, but not the huge expense of purchasing a burial plot, which isn't helped by the fact it has to be done right away since the body must be buried within a day or two IIRC as embalming is also not allowed. The rabbi will need to sign off on the cremation if he is to do the funeral, but yes, a reform rabbi should do that depending on their own opinions of cremation. That is why you need the "rubber stamp".

Really this comes down to whether you can live with the fact your brother will be horribly insulted by the fact you are violating Orthodox doctrine, which is a big deal to that group in my experience. If this is really about the money (rather than wanting to honor your mother's wishes), then one solution is to ask your brother to pay for the burial plot to solve the problem. If he doesn't have the money or doesn't want to, then at least if you aren't observing his wishes, you showed some willingness to compromise that I would hope he would respect to maintain family togetherness. Then again, he may take that as you trying to make him bare the guilt of your choices, which could backfire worse.

With my wedding, I had similar problems because my wife and I are non-religious, but both her sisters and some of the guests were Orthodox. I suggested that we have a normal wedding and just cater in kosher meals for those who were Orthodox, but was told by the sisters that this was 'insulting' and that we had to have the wedding at a hotel with a kosher kitchen, which raised the price quite a bit. Thankfully we had the money, but it still struck me as a huge waste. I drew the line, however, when the sisters also tried to make us use their rabbi. We wanted to be married by a Jewish doctor who was ordained to do marriages, and was a cantor, but not a rabbi. He was a close personal friend or ours, whereas their rabbi was a stranger to us. When we told them this, two Orthodox men who were supposed to sign our marriage license, then refused to sign it. I told them that was fine, and got two other people at the wedding to be witnesses. I also wanted to tell the Orthodox if they were so insulted, they could skip the reception too, but I didn't want to cause a scene with my wife's family. Like you, I detest the Orthodox, particularly when they bend the rules for their own wishes, but expect others to follow their rules when they want to follow them. My personal favorite is leaving the TV on Friday night so they can watch a playoff game or other program on Saturday.

[Terr]

Originally Posted by Yarster

My personal favorite is leaving the TV on Friday night so they can watch a playoff game or other program on Saturday.

Not to hijack the thread, but I don't see a big halakhic problem with that. One can argue that watching TV is "uvdan d'chol" (mundane activity), but that is a fairly subjective thing, and different orthodox authorities interpret it differently.

[Shinna Minna Ma]

Originally Posted by Yarster

I drew the line, however, when the sisters also tried to make us use their rabbi. We wanted to be married by a Jewish doctor who was ordained to do marriages, and was a cantor, but not a rabbi. He was a close personal friend or ours, whereas their rabbi was a stranger to us. When we told them this, two Orthodox men who were supposed to sign our marriage license, then refused to sign it. I told them that was fine, and got two other people at the wedding to be witnesses. I also wanted to tell the Orthodox if they were so insulted, they could skip the reception too, but I didn't want to cause a scene with my wife's family.

Halachically, a couple does not need a rabbi to perform a wedding ceremony.

[Farmer Jane]

If the prohibiton against creamation is correct (as in, the ressurection thing), there are a lot of people who are in dire straits come the Mosiach.

Find another rabbi. Why do you have an Orthodox one anyway?

BAAH.

I'm very sorry you have to deal with this.

edit: Just saw the explanation.

[cmkeller]

Kimstu:

I think the disparaging references to "rabbi-shopping" and "hand-picking" a rabbi to approve cremation are a bit insulting. It is not any more manipulative or selfish for LavenderBlue to seek the opinion of a rabbi whose interpretation of Judaism is similar to her mother's than it is for her brother to seek the opinion of a rabbi whose (Orthodox) interpretation of Judaism is similar to his own.

To seek a clergyman on the basis that he or she will say what you want to hear is a manipulative act, not a sincere attempt to understand religious law. Her brother (however insensitive his and his Rabbi's behavior) didn't consult an Orthodox rabbi because for his own reasons he wanted her buried, and was looking for religious validation of the option he favored, he consulted the Orthodox rabbi because he wanted to know what the religious law said about treatment of a corpse, and the answer came back as "burial."

The reference to "rabbi-shopping" is in no way meant to imply that the Orthodox view is objectively more valid.

[Farmer Jane]

Originally Posted by cmkeller

Kimstu:



To seek a clergyman on the basis that he or she will say what you want to hear is a manipulative act, not a sincere attempt to understand religious law. Her brother (however insensitive his and his Rabbi's behavior) didn't consult an Orthodox rabbi because for his own reasons he wanted her buried, and was looking for religious validation of the option he favored, he consulted the Orthodox rabbi because he wanted to know what the religious law said about treatment of a corpse, and the answer came back as "burial."

The reference to "rabbi-shopping" is in no way meant to imply that the Orthodox view is objectively more valid.

This is true. It's against Jewish law, irrc, to be rabbi shopping to find one that matches your view if the one who is your leader has disagreed with you. Kind of a fine, line, however, since one rabbi's opinion isn't the end all be all.

However, the mother is not Orthodox, so the daughter should have just as much of a say in burial. Actually, the father should.

I think they should find another rabbi to do the burial because the mother would want it, anyway. But what any mother really wants is for her children to be happy. I think if she gets buried instead of cremated, it's not a big deal in the end. She's...well, she's dead. The family unit may be more important at this point. Plus you can't blame the buried mother for her son's sins.

[Kimstu]

Originally Posted by Yarster

The idea of the "rabbi shopping" is presumably because the OP wants a Jewish funeral ceremony, but not the huge expense of purchasing a burial plot, which isn't helped by the fact it has to be done right away since the body must be buried within a day or two IIRC as embalming is also not allowed.

No, the OP made it quite clear that the reason she is looking for a non-Orthodox rabbinical opinion on the permissibility of cremation in Judaism is because her terminally ill non-Orthodox Jewish mother specifically requested cremation after her death.

[benbo1]

A good rule of thumb that has evolved into my beliefs over the years: ignore Orthodoxy - they're years behind the curve and their interests are not societal, but primitive & personal, vis a vis control of the masses. Don't forget, for many years Orthodoxy was against autopsies and organ donation. Autopsies as a whole not only benefit society as we learn more about diseases, but also provide comfort or 'closure' in cases where the cause of death ain't clear. Similarly, while respect for the dead is nice, it falls way behind in 2nd place if someone with a bad heart has a good liver, kidneys, lungs, etc. that could be used to save others. LIFE is what matters. We had a similar situation in my family, when my Grandma died. She was tolerant of others but extremely anti-religious for herself. She made it clear she wanted no religious ceremony upon her death. Despite this, knowing full well he was going against her wishes, my father (her son-in-law, not son) commandeered the process & insisted upon a religious ceremony, complete with Orthodox rabbi. My Mom was ambivalent but he was domineering & she never could stand up to him. My Grandma was probably laughing at the whole thing from beyond the grave.
Having had the misfortune to be raised Ortho, I'm fully well familiar with the Establishment mentality, that we are just empty vessels temporarily occupying these shells for 80 years or so; everything is preparation for Olam Haba, the next world. Life is therefore not meant to be enjoyed, but only tolerated. Explain to ur father (and brother if he'll listen) that ur Mom doesn't stop being ur Mom just because she's dead; she expressed very clearly her wishes, and no stranger (even a rabbi) should impose religious dogma on any individual. They wanna preach, fine; but their preachings shouldn't affect (and by extension, hurt) any1 else. To paraphrase Montaigne, the rabbi's freedom to swing his arm extends only to the tip of your nose. Let the religious Establishment Orthos preach all they want, but let us not listen to them. In matters spiritual, they don't know any more than we do; they just say they do. In the absence of any proof that they 'know' what God wants, accept the services of rabbis to say nice things at graveside, and provide comfort; don't ask them to make decisions for you. Honor your mother.

[OldGuy]

Originally Posted by cmkeller

Her brother (however insensitive his and his Rabbi's behavior) didn't consult an Orthodox rabbi because for his own reasons he wanted her buried, and was looking for religious validation of the option he favored, he consulted the Orthodox rabbi because he wanted to know what the religious law said about treatment of a corpse, and the answer came back as "burial."

I'm sorry but you don't really have any idea why here brother consulted a rabbi, do you?

[Shinna Minna Ma]

Originally Posted by benbo1

Having had the misfortune to be raised Ortho, I'm fully well familiar with the Establishment mentality, that we are just empty vessels temporarily occupying these shells for 80 years or so; everything is preparation for Olam Haba, the next world. Life is therefore not meant to be enjoyed, but only tolerated.

I don't want to get off topic here, but I am Orthodox, and I've never heard this thing about life isn't meant to be enjoyed. I (and my family, and assuming our friends) enjoy our lives. I'm not sure what kind of Orthodox lifestyle you had.

[benbo1]

Originally Posted by Shinna Minna Ma

I don't want to get off topic here, but I am Orthodox, and I've never heard this thing about life isn't meant to be enjoyed. I (and my family, and assuming our friends) enjoy our lives. I'm not sure what kind of Orthodox lifestyle you had.

Obviously it worked out gr8, as ur writing and using the computer on the Sabbath. Good Orthodoxy!
It's in the advanced teachings, most likely the Gemara - earthly life is just a way-station on the road to Gan Eden. That's the Establishment line.

[benbo1]

and i know ur in Israel, where Sabbath is over - but I'm not. :-)

[DocCathode]

Originally Posted by benbo1

It's in the advanced teachings, most likely the Gemara - earthly life is just a way-station on the road to Gan Eden. That's the Establishment line.

I don't dispute that part. Just look at Jewish band Shlock Rock's "This world's only make believe". I DO dispute that life is not meant to be enjoyed. I've always heard the teaching as 'Wealth does not descend with you to the grave. This world is only a passing shadow. From dust we come and to dust we return. But, in between let's have a blintz.'

[benbo1]

Would only that that would filter down to the masses; many still buy into the dogma that everything must be sacrificed (and thus everything on Earth done for) the souls of the dead relatives, not to shame them and the next world.
Let's get back to the main topic - how does this poor guy [the OP] convince his father & crazy brother to allow his Mom to leave as she wishes, and not bend to the will of an interloper rabbi who never even met her?

[Terr]

Originally Posted by benbo1

Obviously it worked out gr8, as ur writing and using the computer on the Sabbath. Good Orthodoxy!

Shinna Minna Ma is in Israel - so for her Shabbat is over. Lashon Harah, benbo1?

[benbo1]

Originally Posted by Terr

Shinna Minna Ma is in Israel - so for her Shabbat is over. Lashon Harah, benbo1?

I knew that, which is y I was teasing about it. It's in his public profile

[benbo1]

Now how about addressing the OP's topic? How to convince 1 guy not to listen to another crazy guy to ignore his mother's wishes?

[C K Dexter Haven]

"Rabbi shopping" is indeed manipulative. This is not a question of "rabbi-shopping," IMHO, but of which branch of Judaism you want to follow. (And, by the way, the Orthodox rabbi you talked with is a jerk regardless of his knowledge or sect, if he couldn't empathize with your anguish and choices and try to help you through it -- rather than dictate to you.)

My mother insisted that she wanted to be cremated, and we're right-wing Conservative. I had a similar conversation with my rabbi, who reminded me of Jewish law forbidding cremation (I knew that already), but who expressed considerable sympathy and understood my dilemma -- to honour my mother's clear wishes, or to stick with Jewish Law. He described how our synagogue would handle things if I decided on cremation.

Basically, they let me pick a time for "funeral" -- although technically it wasn't, her ashes were buried a few months later at our hometown, several hundred miles away -- and then they started shiva. They would not officiate at any funeral service (fine by me), there were a few other restrictions that weren't onerous. The synagogue and the rabbis basically recognized that this situation arises a lot, and poses a dilemma of whether to disregard the clear wishes of a parent. And they have evolved an approach that helps steer the mourners, whatever decision they make.

I was the only decision-maker, so it was easier than your situation, Lavender Blue. It was, frankly, an anguish to have to make a decision between my mother's instructions and Jewish tradition, but I basically decided that:
- If I do not cremate her to follow Jewish Law but ignore her wishes, I'll ALWAYS regret it, for the rest of my life; and
- If I cremate her to follow her instructions to me but violate Jewish Law, I'll regret it for a few weeks or perhaps months, but then be able to live with it. (I acknowledged it as a sin that next Yom Kippur, and it's a sin I will never repeat having no other mother.)

So she was indeed cremated, and I'm comfortable with it. Do I think that means that God will ignore her good deeds, her kindnesses, her many positive acts, and will damn her to oblivion because of this one decision? That's not a just God, and I believe in a God of justice AND mercy. God clearly has the power to resurrect those who were cremated in the Messianic Days -- otherwise, all those who died in Holocaust would be lost. This is not a question of God's power or will, but of the arrogance of small-minded rabbis who think they KNOW what God thinks. Hubris.

(Note that this is Saturday, so those who are traditional in sabbath practice will not be able to respond.)

[benbo1]

Originally Posted by C K Dexter Haven

"Rabbi shopping" is indeed manipulative. This is not a question of "rabbi-shopping," IMHO, but of which branch of Judaism you want to follow. (And, by the way, the Orthodox rabbi you talked with is a jerk regardless of his knowledge or sect, if he couldn't empathize with your anguish and choices and try to help you through it -- rather than dictate to you.)

My mother insisted that she wanted to be cremated, and we're right-wing Conservative. I had a similar conversation with my rabbi, who reminded me of Jewish law forbidding cremation (I knew that already), but who expressed considerable sympathy and understood my dilemma -- to honour my mother's clear wishes, or to stick with Jewish Law. He described how our synagogue would handle things if I decided on cremation.

Basically, they let me pick a time for "funeral" -- although technically it wasn't, her ashes were buried a few months later at our hometown, several hundred miles away -- and then they started shiva. They would not officiate at any funeral service (fine by me), there were a few other restrictions that weren't onerous. The synagogue and the rabbis basically recognized that this situation arises a lot, and poses a dilemma of whether to disregard the clear wishes of a parent. And they have evolved an approach that helps steer the mourners, whatever decision they make.

I was the only decision-maker, so it was easier than your situation, Lavender Blue. It was, frankly, an anguish to have to make a decision between my mother's instructions and Jewish tradition, but I basically decided that:
- If I do not cremate her to follow Jewish Law but ignore her wishes, I'll ALWAYS regret it, for the rest of my life; and
- If I cremate her to follow her instructions to me but violate Jewish Law, I'll regret it for a few weeks or perhaps months, but then be able to live with it. (I acknowledged it as a sin that next Yom Kippur, and it's a sin I will never repeat having no other mother.)

So she was indeed cremated, and I'm comfortable with it. Do I think that means that God will ignore her good deeds, her kindnesses, her many positive acts, and will damn her to oblivion because of this one decision? That's not a just God, and I believe in a God of justice AND mercy. God clearly has the power to resurrect those who were cremated in the Messianic Days -- otherwise, all those who died in Holocaust would be lost. This is not a question of God's power or will, but of the arrogance of small-minded rabbis who think they KNOW what God thinks. Hubris.

(Note that this is Saturday, so those who are traditional in sabbath practice will not be able to respond.)

Amen, Sela!

[Terr]

Originally Posted by benbo1

Now how about addressing the OP's topic? How to convince 1 guy not to listen to another crazy guy to ignore his mother's wishes?

The question presupposes craziness. Which is not in evidence.

[benbo1]

Originally Posted by Terr

The question presupposes craziness. Which is not in evidence.

The rabbi & the brother. OK, if u don't like 'crazy', how about 'overbearing' or 'pompous'? Whatever the word, being obnoxious enough to impose ur own beliefs on some1 else?

[Terr]

Originally Posted by benbo1

The rabbi & the brother. OK, if u don't like 'crazy', how about 'overbearing' or 'pompous'? Whatever the word, being obnoxious enough to impose ur own beliefs on some1 else?

I seriously doubt LavenderBlue's telling of the story, if only because of the "on the grounds that she will go to hell if she does [get cremated]" statement she assigns to the rabbi. No orthodox rabbi would ever say something like that.

But in any case, the orthodox rabbi and the brother are just telling the husband of the deceased woman what the Jewish law is in this case, since he (not being Jewish himself) probably has no idea. The husband is free to decide whatever he wants, he doesn't have to follow their advice.

[benbo1]

Originally Posted by Terr

I seriously doubt LavenderBlue's telling of the story, if only because of the "on the grounds that she will go to hell if she does [get cremated]" statement she assigns to the rabbi. No orthodox rabbi would ever say something like that.

But in any case, the orthodox rabbi and the brother are just telling the husband of the deceased woman what the Jewish law is in this case, since he (not being Jewish himself) probably has no idea. The husband is free to decide whatever he wants, he doesn't have to follow their advice.

So it's obvious how u think. What the rabbi & Orhto brother are dictating are NOT Jewish law - it's Ortho law. A galaxy of difference between the 2. Not enough space left on the entire internet to debate that topic, but suffice it to say Orthodoxy routinely takes the most extreme rabid position, ostensibly to 'guard the culture & protect from outside influences'. Thanx for demonstrating why the rabbi, brother, and u r all wrong. Millions of people including Jews get cremated daily, as per their wish. No one has the right to our bodies except ourselves. The family would do the right thing by listening to the dead mother - it was her wish what to do with her body.

[Terr]

Originally Posted by benbo1

So it's obvious how u think. What the rabbi & Orhto brother are dictating are NOT Jewish law - it's Ortho law.

As the Orthodox rabbi told his Reform friend: "It's ok. You worship God in your way, and I will do it in his."

[benbo1]

if only that were how Orthos acted - witness the Ortho rabbi in LavenderBlue's story. Let's hope LavenderBlue is strong enough to stand up to his brother & the crazy rabbi.

[Farmer Jane]

Originally Posted by Terr

As the Orthodox rabbi told his Reform friend: "It's ok. You worship God in your way, and I will do it in his."

All I have to say to that is, PPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPHTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT.

[DocCathode]

Originally Posted by benbo1

No one has the right to our bodies except ourselves.

I don't think I agree with that. I don't think Jewish law agrees with it either. Consider that under Jewish law one cannot-

Get a tattoo

round the corners of their head

round the corners of their beard

or keep their foreskin.

[benbo1]

Originally Posted by DocCathode

I don't think I agree with that. I don't think Jewish law agrees with it either. Consider that under Jewish law one cannot-

Get a tattoo

round the corners of their head

round the corners of their beard

or keep their foreskin.

Again, ur confusing Jewish law with the Orthodox spin on Jewish law.
The tattoo thing is now a relic - Jews with tattoos are buried in Jewish cemetaries without a 2nd thought.
The haircut thing is just dumbass - many have routinely cut their hair how they want for many years. Many Ortho men are also clean-shaven, so even they reject the idiocy of the 'corners of their beard' thing, whatever that is.
The foreskin thing, if not done at 8 days, is something again that is left up to choice. There is evidence to suggest a health benefit for circumcision; okay then, what about the women?
To sum, there is no 'Jewish law' that forbids doing what u want to ur body, including cremation. The rabbi & LavendarBlue's brother are engaging in emotional blackmail, taking advantage of a grieving family. The good news is, that blackmail is ineffective against strong will. Were we all to ignore it, it would go away.

[benbo1]

if only that were how Orthos acted - witness the Ortho rabbi in LavenderBlue's story. Let's hope LavenderBlue is strong enough to stand up to his brother & the crazy rabbi.